Religion & Beliefs
The Heretic: Exploiting Undocumented Workers Exploits Judaism
By Shmarya Rosenberg / August 14, 2008
Undocumented workers, always one phone call away from deportation and a moment away from being summarily fired, are afraid to object to abusive working conditions. This makes them ripe for exploitation, as has been amply documented, and is one reason why US labor law does not allow employers to prevent illegal workers from unionizing. The May 12 immigration raid at Agriprocessors in Postville, Iowa, the world’s largest kosher slaughterhouse, exposed the dark underbelly of illegal immigration. In response to this exploitation, the Jewish community has split in two.
One side, overwhelmingly non-Orthodox in affiliation, views the conduct of the Rubashkin family, Agriprocessors’ hasidic owners, as beyond the pale. It looks at the history of Agriprocessors and its owners and sees a clear, long term pattern of disregard for US law and halakha, Jewish law. It has demanded change, urged boycott, and rallied for justice.
The other side, overwhelmingly Orthodox, sees little wrong with Agriprocessors. It argues Agriprocessors is being mistreated; that liberal Jews, unions, and unnamed competitors are behind the raid and its media coverage; and that Jewish law governing treatment of workers should at any rate be divorced from Jewish law governing the preparation of kosher food. To these people, the many well documented sins of Agriprocessors and its owners, sins that stretch back many years in an unbroken chain, are irrelevant. Absent from the first is much concern over the availability of kosher meat. Absent from the second is much concern for the poor, often illiterate men and women (and children) who produce our food. There is no biblical command to eat meat, and many of the Rubashkins’ fellow hasidim went years without eating meat because of the difficulty of getting kosher meat in the Soviet Union. There are, however, several biblical commands that apply to Agriprocessors workforce. The most striking comes from Deuteronomy 24:14-15:
You shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow countryman or a stranger in one of the communities in your land. You must give him his wages on the very same day [he works], before the sun sets, because he is needy and he urgently depends on it – otherwise he will cry out to God against you and you will be guilty.
A good example of Orthodoxy's apparent disconnect on the issue is the plight of many new workers who are brought to Postville by staffing companies working under contact to Agriprocessors. Recruited from large cities and shipped into Postville, these poor, often destitute people are charged a transportation fee of $75 dollars, despite the fact that the staffing companies are paid for every hired worker. Employees are told they have a couple of main options for living arrangements.
They can find apartments or beds on their own, or they can rent a bed from the staffing company for $100 per week in what is euphemistically called “campus-style” housing. That is $100 per week for what is often a mattress on the floor of a room shared with one or two strangers, in a house filled with more strangers, each clinging to his or her own mattress in a room filled with strangers. (And this is in Postville, Iowa where housing prices are ridiculously low compared to New York or even St. Paul, where a furnished room – not a bed – in a nice part of town rents for $300 per month.) Rent is automatically deducted from workers’ weekly paychecks.The “advantage” to this arrangement is that workers do not need to make a security deposit. And, a Rubashkin family member has been quick to tell me, they get extras: their lawn is cut for them, their utilities are included in the rent, and the house may have cable TV. Sometimes, a staffing company employee even drives a van load of workers to a nearby WalMart. Staffing companies do offer cash advances – $100 per week. But in at least one case, those advances are tied to ATMs that charge $5 per transaction. Lacking local bank accounts or a safe place to keep their money, workers tend to make more frequent, smaller withdrawals rather than one or two large ones. 20% or more of their cash advances can be easily eaten up by fees. A worker who nets $80 on his cash advance still pays back $100, and that $100 is automatically deducted from his next paycheck. Another arrangement has workers renting “campus style” directly from the same landlord the staffing company rents from – GAL Investments, owned by another Chabad hasidic Jew, Gabey Menahem.
The $400 per month fee for a bed drops to just under $230 per month with this plan. But workers need to make a security deposit equivalent to one month’s rent and pay their first month’s rent up front, as well. GAL is said to be a bit flexible on this, allowing workers to pay their security deposits and first month’s rent with their first or second weekly paycheck. Why the largesse? Perhaps because rent and security deposits are automatically deducted from workers’ pay by Agriprocessors – in other words, workers’ paychecks are their security. These and other arrangements offered to new workers often leave these workers with empty paychecks – paychecks that, after taxes, “fees,” and rent leave workers with no money. How do they eat? A significant number of them rely on the community food shelf administered by members of the local Catholic church.
Some Agriprocessors supporters have actually claimed that Agriprocessors keeps the food shelf stocked – a claim that was vociferously denied by Paul Real, the man who runs it, and by Father Paul Ouderkirk and Sister Mary McCauley, the clergy who are most involved in the food shelf’s daily operation. Use of the food shelf has grown exponentially since the raid, first by illegal workers awaiting trial or hiding out from Immigration police, and then from destitute new workers recruited by Agriprocessors who arrive holding pay stubs that show many hours worked but no net pay. And, through it all, Agriprocessors and its supporters see nothing wrong. A delegation of 20 hand-picked Orthodox rabbis friendly to the company, and five hand-picked Orthodox journalists who write for similarly supportive publications, recently took a trip to Postville (all expenses paid by Agriprocessors) to “inspect” company operations.
Their initial itinerary did not include meetings with Ouderkirk, Real and MacCauley or with former workers. No provision was made to meet current workers off-site where they might feel a bit freer to speak, and no provision was made to preserve workers’ anonymity. The rabbis also refused to meet with union representatives. In the end, only four of the rabbis met Real and a church representative. Two – Pesach Lerner, the EVP of Young Israel, and David Eliezrie, a sometime spokesman for Chabad who has been acting as a media advisor for Agriprocessors – are open supporters of Agriprocessors, and were the co-organizers of the trip. Another, Daniel Moscowitz, heads Chabad in Illinois and is close to the Rubashkin family. Yet the clear conflicts of interest and this lack of balance did not stop these Orthodox rabbis from issuing statements ‘clearing’ Agriprocessors. Predictably, the Orthodox journalists followed suit.
We have two Jewish communities, really two Jewish peoples. The fault line dividing them is Orthodox observance. One views exploitation of workers – much like other Agriprocessors-related crimes – with horror. The Orthodox other couldn’t seem to care less. “Everybody does it,” a Chabad hasid told me. “Why should Rubashkin be different?” “The Torah,” I replied. The hasid did not understand my response. Orthodox outreach groups are fond of asking potential recruits a question: Will your grandchildren be Jewish? The idea being that if the non-Orthodox person doesn’t take proactive steps now, his children or grandchildren will marry non-Jews. Those proactive steps? Adopting Orthodoxy, of course. The thing is, they're asking the wrong question. Their question focuses on genetic group identity rather than behavior. The question should be, "Will your children and grandchildren be kind, moral, and ethical people?" Asked that way, the answer is clear. Orthodoxy as currently practiced is no guarantee of ethical behavior – in fact, it’s probably contraindicated. Agriprocessors has proved that.
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Yes! And the rich have exactly as much right to sleep under bridges as the poor!!
The author's argument is premised on a misuse of the word "abuse". If one were to accept the notion that low wages equal abuse, we could argue that supermarket bag fillers; Wal-Mart shelf stockers; waiters and waitresses in cheap restaurants, etc., etc. are all "abused". This, of course, is nonsense. Likewise, the mere fact that one pays for goods or services which, from another's perspective, seem like a bad bargain is hardly abuse.
The author betrays what is frequently referred to as "soft bigotry": the idea that these illegal aliens are simply unable to make rational decisions on their own behalves. The reality is these people made the choice to illegally enter the US; the choice to work for Agriprocessors; the choice to purchase food and shelter in a manner that suited them; the choice to stay at Agriprocessors as opposed to seeking work elsewhere; and the choice to remain in the US.
It is perfectly reasonable to sympathize with the poverty of these people; it is not reasonable, however, to blame Agriprocessors (or, for that matter, any other employer) for their plight.
The end of any attempted discussion with the ultra-orthodox, when they run out of anything to say, is a barage of vulgarities, followed by the accusations of being a 'self-hating' Jew or of being a nazi.
Despite their ceaseless invocation of the Holocaust, I have yet to meet any of you ultra-orthodox knuckleheads who has ever actually read any history book about the Holocaust, or anything by any of the great writers who survived the Holocaust.
If it helps you any, I am also a member of PETA, a union where I work, I am a liberal democrat who supports Obama, I sometimes eat nonkosher food, I date a nonJewish woman, and I am a subscriber to the Forward (as was my father).
Stella Goldschlag
Stella: The Story of Stella Goldschlag
by Diana Tovar
December 6, 2005
for Prof. Marcuse's lecture course
Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the Holocaust
UC Santa Barbara, Fall 2005
(course homepage, web projects index page,
Jewish Survival project main page)
Page Author
Book Summary (back to top)
Stella, by Peter Wyden is an eloquent yet straightforward documentation about the life of Stella Goldschlag, who was responsible for turning over countless Jews to the Gestapo and their ultimate death. The biographic novel begins with a short introductory chapter that sets the tone for the book in two manners, how people were in awe of Stella and the level of betrayal that she was capable of reaching. Wyden also states his curiosity for Jews who would betray Jews and the reasons behind it as an explanation as to why he chose to investigate his fellow childhood classmate whom he dubs as the "traitor of the Goldschmidt School" (19).
Stella was raised in the west end of Berlin under her parents’ care where they treated her like a princess, buying her new dresses and generally overprotecting her. Like most Jews who lived in Berlin at the time, she was a result of Jewish assimilation into gentile life and culture (20). She attended Goldschmidt, where Wyden met her, a school for Jewish children founded once the Nazis removed all non-Aryan children from public schools. Her family was well off but not as affluent as other successful Jewish families because although her mother was a successful singer her father was a failed musician. Since Stella’s looks resembled those of an Aryan, Stella became quite popular in school, especially with the boys. She was referred to as the "school’s Marilyn Monroe: tall, slim, leggy, cool, with her light blue eyes, teeth out of a toothpaste ad, and pale satin skin … a masterpiece, untouchable" (15). Growing up in the post-WWI turmoil left Stella, along with her family and other German Jews, trying to prove her loyalty to Germany in an effort to counteract anti-Semitism (30). November 10, 1938 is when it all began for Stella. She was sent home early from school only to find out that her father was in hiding because Jewish males were being rounded up (67). Crystal Night was the turning point for the Goldschlags in realizing that there was no escaping Hitler, and they later came to terms with WWII as well (73).
Early in the war Stella attended an art school called Feige and Strassburger, where she studied fashion drawing and posed as a nude model for about two years, which kept her out of forced factory labor (80). Unlike Wyden’s family, who was more affluent then hers, Stella’s family was not able to escape Berlin because their lack of connections and money (81). Starting September 16, 1941 Jews were not allowed to be seen in public without wearing a yellow Star of David patch, although eventually Stella stopped wearing the star except at work. That October, Stella and her boyfriend Manfred Kübler got married. Although she hated to admit it, Stella was Jewish and because of this she was forced to work in a factory as an "armament Jew". While working at the factory she witnessed numerous Jews being taken away to labor/concentration camps (103).
On February 27, 1943 there was a round up of Jews at the factory where Stella and her mother worked, they both were able to sneak into a makeshift shelter where they hid momentarily and later went out a back door that was being guarded by the Gestapo. Essentially they were able to escape because they had blonde hair, and many Nazis believed that "Jews could not be blonde" (110). Stella’s husband was taken away to Auschwitz and was never heard of again. Back in Berlin Stella became part of the 18,300 "U-boats," Jews who were illegally living in hiding in Berlin, ironically the same people she would betray (130).
The first event that eventually led Stella down the path of becoming a catcher was when Guenther Rogoff, a longtime admirer of Stella, forged a police identification card for her (139). On July 2, 1943 Stella was arrested in a café where she was waiting for Rolf. She was turned in by an acquaintance who was a "catcher," a Jew who turned in other Jews. Stella had become a prime target for the Gestapo when they searched her papers and recognized Rogoff’s handiwork; they figured that they would beat his whereabouts out of her (142). Stella met Rolf Issaksohn, her future second husband and partner in crime in late spring of 1943 and became very close with him; Rolf was later arrested in October. Stella was beaten profusely by the Gestapo with the intention of breaking her so she would turn her friend in, but she honestly did not know where Rogoff was. The treatment Stella received in Burgstrasse, where she was being held, had stripped her of the sense of self she had prior to being tortured, which was her beauty (144). Stella managed to escape Burgstrasse after complaining of a toothache; she was arrested 12 hours later along with her parents.
She escaped for a second time but later turned herself in because she felt guilty because her parents were being shipped off to Auschwitz. Instead of being deported, Stella was offered her first job as a "catcher" which was to seek out Guenther Rogoff. However, since she had no actual information she was accused of faking and sent back to jail. An SS deputy, Felix Lachmuth, became aware of Stella’s Aryan like looks and intelligence and slowly recruited her as a "catcher" offering her some benefits and guaranteed safety for her parents (153). News about Stella’s treachery began to spread rapidly once she began betraying her acquaintance U-boats, even her photo began to circulate in the U-boat community (155). Stella had been able to get Rolf Issaksohn recruited as another "catcher"; the pair became notorious (142, 155).
Stella had to make her "Nazi loyalty" concrete and in doing this she turned over countless Jews. The Nazis referred to her as the "blonde poison" (192). After about 7 months as a catcher, Stella was informed that her parents could not be held back from deportation any longer; both her parents and Rolf convinced her to stay in Berlin. Afterwards Stella continued her services as a catcher, attending crowded places and events as well as funerals of mixed marriages where the Aryan spouse died and the immunity for the non-Aryan would be dissolved. Rolf played a major role in pushing her to continue her job as a "catcher". Fearful of the arrival of the Allies, Stella began to grow uneasy and unmotivated; Rolf had grown tired and had shifted his sexual interests. Stella, recognizing this, began to look for "emotional anchorage, sex, and protection from worldly danger" in other men (199).
With the end of the war approaching Stella was made aware that the punishment for her crimes as a catcher was execution at the end of war (209). Stella discovered she was pregnant in February 1945 by one of her lovers at the time, Heino. Heino wanted nothing to do with Stella and did not believe the child was his. After the war ended, Stella went into hiding in the woods and heather of Brandenburg waiting for her prince, Heino, to come rescue her. In October her daughter, Yvonne Meissl, was born. Yvonne was seized by the Liebenwalde police and was taken to a hospital where she was handed off to nurse Alice Safristein. Eventually Stella was arrested by the Soviets and sentenced to ten years of hard labor at several work camps. In total she had three trials and was sentenced to ten years in each but only served one of the 3 sentences. Yvonne is extremely resentful of her mother and was quoted by Wyden saying, "I am Yvonne, who had better not have been born" (13).
Analysis: How Stella came to be an infamous catcher (back to top)
There is a thin line distinguishing altruism and self-interest when it comes to extreme measures to protect one’s family and extreme measures to protect oneself. In Peter Wyden’s biographic novel Stella, Stella Goldschlag’s story is portrayed as "one woman’s true tale of evil, betrayal, and survival in Hitler’s Germany" (Wyden, cover). Stella Goldschlag worked for the Nazi’s as a "catcher", which means, that she was a Jew who sought out other Jews in hiding and turned them over to the Gestapo. A general characteristic of history and personal accounts is that they can be analyzed in different viewpoint and Stella’s story is no different. Stella Goldschlag became a notorious "catcher" because she was confused as to her identity, had her self esteem beaten down, she was tortured, she wanted to protect her family and she was weak willed.
Stella Goldschlag had a normal childhood that consisted of pretty dresses and overprotective parents who wanted to provide the best for their princess whom they lovingly nicknamed Pünktchen, meaning "little dot" (Wyden, 20). Like most Jewish people who lived in Berlin at the time, Stella became one of the 173,000 (out of 500,000) Jews who had assimilated "into the fabric of gentile life in the Reich capital" (Wyden, 21). When people become assimilated into different cultures they may fall into identity crisises where they are caught between what they actually feel and what they should feel. Some assimilated German Jews demonstrated the same loyalty to Germany as did "Aryan" Germans. For example, Gerhard Goldschlag, Stella’s father fought during WW1 in the same army as the Germans. Stella fell victim to an identity crisis because she could not understand why she had to be "publicly exposed, identified as a Jew, when she didn’t look or feel Jewish" (Wyden, 98). Since her physical features were reminiscent of an Aryan, with her blue eyes and blonde hair, she was often mistaken for an Aryan, and to be Aryan was to be German and Stella was German. It is understandable that Stella felt she had no strong ties to her Jewish heritage because of all the anti-Semitic acts that occurred around her such as Crystal Night and the mass deportation of Jews to concentration camps. Having to face discrimination can make a person feel ashamed of who he or she is. Another aspect that may have influence Stella’s identity crisis was her place in society. Many assimilated Jews considered themselves to be Jewish elite because they were successful and resented being compared to the Jewish refugees from the East (Deak, 32). Although the Goldschlag family was not the most affluent they had more privileged circumstances then East European Jews. A victim of her identity crisis, Stella played the role of an Aryan by removing the Star of David from her clothes and was able to live illegally in hiding until she was turned over by a "catcher".
A major part of Stella’s self esteem revolved around the fact that her beauty had endowed her with a certain power over males (Wyden, 145). When this had no affect over the Gestapo and they mercilessly beat her for information regarding Rogoff she felt powerless. Although this may seem shallow, it is important to keep in mind that her looks were important to Stella and they are what she capitalized on. Wyden compared her to Marilyn Monroe and describes her as "a masterpiece, untouchable, a fantasy for a prepubescent boy…" (Wyden, 15). If all her life she has been told she was beautiful and she had always gotten what she wanted because of it, it must have been hard to be stripped of it. Stella also depended on her looks when she attended Feige and Strassburger where she posed as a nude model. After having the exalted image of herself beaten down, the Gestapo physically tortured her for information.
The practice of torturing prisoners for information during wartime is not unusual regardless of how inhumane it is. The idea of beating a defenseless man is difficult to imagine, picture how much worse it is when a woman getting beaten. The worst part of it all is that Stella was an innocent victim because she was telling the truth about not knowing the whereabouts of Rogoff. Stella was tortured mercilessly, "They kicked both of [her] shins to the breaking point and kept beating the same spot on [her] spine. [She] was bleeding from [her] mouth, ears, and nose and couldn’t eat for days… Three times they took the safety off a pistol and put it against [her] temple. Totally shattered, [she] lay unconscious on the floor" (Wyden, 144). Not satisfied with themselves, the Gestapo then kicked her with their boots while she lay on the floor. After being beaten and tortured and stripped of her self esteem Stella had no choice but to give up on her life and just try to save her family.
Stella ultimately became a "catcher" in order to protect her parents from deportation to the concentration camps. If a person is trying to protect his or her family from harms way they are capable of many things. In Stella’s case it was either her family or her acquaintances and it is understandable that she made the choice of turning over other Jews to the Gestapo rather than her family. How many of us would be able to send our family and ourselves off to imminent death without doing everything in our power to stop it? Stella’s loyalty to her family is strongly supported by the fact that after being a "catcher" for 7 months when her parents had no other option to be deported she was willing to go with them (Wyden, 176). It was her parents and Rolf who convinced her to stay in Berlin, "[y]ou’ll stay, and we’re happy about that… We go gladly in your stead and we’re not afraid" (Wyden, 176). Wyden suggests different reasons as to why her parents would have convinced Stella to stay in Berlin since they were aware of the large numbers of "illegal Jews" their daughter was turning over. Could her parents have been in denial that she was limiting her services to tracking down Rogoff? Did they forgive her? Perhaps convincing her to stay was their last attempt to protect the little princess they had raised and fought so hard to protect (Wyden,177). However once her parents were deported, "Stella saw herself released from her obligations to her family" (Wyden,176). Although she was free of the responsibility of her family and could stop being a "catcher", she had a new affliction. The ultimate decision for herself was to continue being a traitor to her race or to get sent to a concentration camp and possibly die, "She was blooded. The choice was unequivocal, as Dobberke had made plain: it was either his work or his train" (Wyden,198). Her weak will and her desire to survive ultimately fueled Stella’s ultimate decision to continue being a "catcher".
As a "catcher" Stella had it easy and she did not want to cause problems for herself. Once her parents were deported, the decision to continue being a "catcher" was purely for selfish reasons. After all there were benefits for "catchers" such as they were not confined to a camp, they did not have to wear the Jewish star, they were decently fed and paid, they carried Gestapo identification cards to certify their authority, their names came off the deportation lists and they received 200 marks bonus per head (Wyden, 141). Giving up these benefits added to her unwillingness to quit being a "catcher" which is a result of being weak minded. After being tortured and forced into being traitor and having her family taken away from Stella fell into a depression. Another reason why she couldn’t fight the true evil of what she was doing was the fact that she was still in love with Rolf, "Sullen, severely depressed, abandoned, she fell… under the thralldom of Rolf, her sole surviving attachment… Rolf, in turn, though he needed Stella as his partner, his Jew bait… And so he told her that if she didn’t stick to the ["catcher"] work with convincing fervor, Dobberke would wonder about her loyalty to the Gestapo" (Wyden,190). Rolf played off of her inferior state of mind because he knew how vulnerable she was.
People are products of their surroundings and unfortunately the surroundings Stella found herself in were not favorable. She was a victim of cruel injustices such as discrimination, torture and having to live in a genocidal and war torn country. Stella Goldschlag was left no choice but to become a "catcher" in order to protect herself and her family. One can almost justify her being a "catcher" to save her family, but when she did it to save herself it became pure evil. It is remarkable to see how far one person is willing to go in order to survive.
Another Chassidic Jew does the perp walk!
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Silber_Zalman.html
Community benefactor Zalman Silber of Monsey and Boro Park, with a long rap sheet, now pretending to be a gynecologist!
One more reason to believe that the orthodox are the only hope for the future of Judaism.
I've heard about the hookers in NYC and in Israel (elsewhere too, I would imagine), but an adult bookstore that caters to that clientele, to the extent of having a discrete door for them – love it!
This is what comes of enforced gender segregation.They grow up inadequately socialized and become obsessed with sex as a result. In the end you get porn emporia with back doors (how Freudian is that?) on the one hand, and, on the other, a rabbi screaming bloody murder about a wig store that displays pictures of (chos v'sholem!) women actually wearing the wigs!
Those wacky Hareidim!
People here at work (we are in central NJ) who live in the Lakewood area swear that it is true. I will find out an exact location.
In Lakewood, there is an adult book store with a special entrance in the back for the religious customers.
Is this literally true?
You should look in the classified section of the Village Voice. There are dozens of ads for hookers (both female and male!) who say they specialize in the needs of the 'ultra-orthodox gentleman'.
In Lakewood, there is an adult book store with a special entrance in the back for the religious customers.
whos offering wagers u moron all im saying is go get laid maybe youll loosen up
When an idiot runs out of logical arguments, he has two options:
1. Offer to make a wager
2. Start using vulgarity and four-letter words
When my opponent choses either, I know I've arrived.
Woolsilkcotton your a snide douche who cant get laid
WoolSilkCotton -take ur shatnes infested pseudonym and shove it up ur ass sideways -maybe that will dislodge the stick thats currently there .All u do is mock orthodox Jews
trust me we do that just fine ourselves so f off (yeah i learned that language in lakewood u no life fucker) get a life
My Anonymous friend,
What sounds great in your shul in Boro Park just doesn't hold true in the rest of the world. There is a world of wonderful Jewish life, not orthodox, beyond the Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Moderation works best in everything, including religion. Most Jews were never orthodox, aren't currently, and never will be.
The orthodox have been predicting the end of nonorthodox Judaism for over a century, but us nonortho's are still here, and there are still a lot more of us than orthodox.
Making a zillion babies won't work for you, either. It doesn't enhance third world countries with high population growth rates, and it hasn't enhanced the standing of minorities in the USA who have had high birth rates. Quantity ain't quality. You are only inbreeding recessive genes, congenital anomalies and inherited syndromes.
So please, as a first step, drop the exaggerated sense of self-importance.
And don't worry for me darling, I'll be dancing at my grandchildren's weddings, just like my grandparents did, and none of us are orthodox.
the ultra orthodox genuinely want the reform and conservative jews to have kids. the reason is that at some point in the future – perhpas one perhaps two generations in the future some of the reform and conservative kids will find the ultra orthodox creed and join it
i think the ultra orthodox have hopes that will not be fulfilled
let me ask a question when in history has a group of jews been offered the chance to operate in to the native culture – take on high paying jobs and a comfortable secular environment ? each and every time this has happened the jews thought they could hold on to their jewishness but always failed. they dissolved in to the larger society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_Judaism
there is no survival for jews other than orthodoxy
All 'ultra-orthodox' forms of religion follow a common pathway.
Their leaders try to maintain power by preaching fear; they tell their followers that it's us-against-them, and isolationism is the answer. I, your leader, know best what God wants. Stick with me; i.e. keep me in power, and you will be safe thanks to me.
These same leaders know that the worst enemy is freedom to think; the freedom to entertain new ideas, new viewpoints. Democracy is anathema to any ultra-orthodox religion. Therefore, all contact with the outside world is curtailed. No TV, radio, internet, newspapers. Keep all outsiders from entering your neighborhood.
All outsiders are not only considered the enemy, but they are also considered stupid; they cannot be very bright if they don't have God's grace the way 'we' do. As a result, if you are not a member of that ultra-orthodox religion, you must be dumb, easy to manipulate, and ripe for the picking. SInce you are against our god, it's ok to cheat you, abuse you and steal from you. In fact, you must be a virtual savage, and so we must teach you religion, such as the 'noahide laws'. [Recall how Rubashkin included the noahide laws as part of the training for new Hispanic workers.]
All these groups preach large families, even if it means forced/arranged marriages with teenage girls. As part of that idea, women must be kept under control, and so we have Modesty Patrols in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Monsey, Williamsburg and Jerusalem.
Delusions of persecution, exaggerated self-importance, and the organized system of paranoia are hard to maintain as the group grows.
Eventually, there are even more fanatical groups that form within the mass.
The next step is physical violence. At first it's against members within, who are perceived as weak and compromising. Then the thugs branch out and their is an incident where they attack a neighboring city, or a government agency. If they get away with it, they celebrate, and a larger more emboldened attack is planned and perpetrated.
Sooner or later, the patience and tolerance of their neighbors or the government wears out, and that's when the end comes. Fanatics only understand a cataclysm, and that's what it takes to stop them. I'm afraid the IDF will be faced with the task of 'taking out the trash'.
Look at the history of any fanatical religious group- Christian cults in Texas, Jonestown, radical Islam and the Taliban- it's all the same.
If this takes too long, you might have to go to Chabad and learn how to
pray, in order to get a wife and children. And that's not so terrible
either. Their sons look cute with their little baby tzitzit flapping
around, as they chase their sisters around the bima. Yes, they have
sisters, plural. Wearing dear little dresses with ribbons in their
hair.
This is why I don't participate here very often.
Editors: Do you think you could initiate some sort of test for potential commenters; something along the lines of "You must be THIS intelligent to leave a comment?"
There is no way to argue with an empty chair. If our great-grandchildren are to continue this interesting religious wrangling, could the Reform, Conservative and secular (RCS) folks please have some descendents to carry it on?
The RES men should decide they want children with a mother doesn't work, for the moment, and then, they should state that goal and viewpoint plainly, in carrying tones, to nobody in particular, next time they are in a social setting. They will get some funny looks, but so what. They should re-state this plainly to any women who chat them up. This will clear the room, at first. However, it will also save a lot of money, time and heart. Catch up on your reading, and put the saved money into a CD. Keep hanging out, and stating your goal plainly. When ONE women sticks around, because that is her viewpoint too, get her a nice ring with all the money you saved by not taking the others out. If this takes too long, you might have to go to Chabad and learn how to pray, in order to get a wife and children. And that's not so terrible either. Their sons look cute with their little baby tzitzit flapping around, as they chase their sisters around the bima. Yes, they have sisters, plural. Wearing dear little dresses with ribbons in their hair.
Jeff, yes, I am well aware that there are segments of the Haredi world that do not bemoan the demographic facts, at least privately.
This has nothing to do with a defense of what Rabbi Lamm said and that was the issue.
If you would like to knock some in the Haredi world, especially in the wake of the time just past in Tisha B'av–for failing to love every Jew–fine. There are many Reform and secular Jews that hate all Haredi Jews–they might do well be change their attitude as well and surely more.
Get it through your head: people who adopt a losing strategy cannot whine that someone else didn't make that mistake, and somehow should have, sulk, sulk. Anybody whose group is disappearing, and who knows how to put his arm around the waist of a woman, has only his own dear self to blame, no excuses.
So, Jeff Eyges, they are bad puppies when they exhort people to marry because it's none of their business and so right-wing, and, they are also bad puppies when they get gleeful at the disappearance of the non-Orthodox (which I vigorously doubt anybody is spending calories doing). What do you want them to do? Host Valentine's day mixers for the Non-Orthodox, and try to make matches among them? Who would attend? Who would listen? Should they take them aside, and explain, in conspiratorial, fatherly tones, how you get more of us? Birds and bees? Are you doing any of that outreach yourself? Have you set anybody up among your friends?
WE SHOULD ALL GET VERY BUSY DOING THAT. We should rack our brains about who would be good for all our ex's, and start it going.
Might you prefer that the Orthodox world blithely accept the facts and
happily await the time when only Orthodox Judaism stands? Secular and Orthodox Jew alike bemoan this state of affairs and it seems only Hitler would be pleased.
Actually, David, I think most of the Hareidi world – which is now most of Orthodoxy – would be very pleased indeed.
I invite you to study the laws of Shabbos and you will discover, as I have suggested, that Shabbos may be broken for the sake of saving a life–emphatically and of course Rabbi Carmey agrees–but even further that it can be "violated" for the sake of the health of people as well. I am not going to cut and paste every bit of halacha that proves the point–you can look at the sources yourself and you do not have to take my word for it.
Your willingness to miss the point is extraordinary. We save a life so that there can be many more Sabbaths to celebrate is a celebration of LIFE not a means to itself. To choose life so that we may live is no empty bumper sticker–it is an affirmation that our lives as Jews are enriched. By contrast–you ignored me when I asked how our lives are enriched by a profusion of secular laws which embolden the rule-makers in the bureaucracies but bring pain to individuals. By your standards–you must decry these outrages, ,alas, you won't. Instead you attack the life-affirming standards of our faith and say that our laws are there merely to perpetuate laws when they explicitly stand for our life and our liberty. And it is peculiar–as the anonymous posters have explained–why you choose Shabbos to blast instead of laws which are at least on some level restrictive, or ususual–surely this is standard fare on this Jewcy blog. Rarely, does the left stridently attack Shabbos which even modern secular psychologists now acknowledge as having significant health, family and emotional benefits. It is our gift from our Maker to enrich us and you want to say, in a public folder, that it is "inviolable"–even to save a life when this is specifically not the case.
You say that the law cannot be violated even in the case of life and you assert that the law values itself for its own sake without any evidence. This is why the law is put aside for LIFE and it is written if it is a matter of life–we do not ask anyone–we violate the Shabbos quickly in order that we have many more Sabbaths–just as Rabbi Carmy indicated.
Jews commonly cringe when people employ the Holocaust as a metaphor to justify some point they wish to make. I don't feel Rabbi Lamm was off base with his assertion. Hitler was out to kill the Jewish people–not kill simply people. The intermarriage in the US is a literal holocaust against Jews since such action radically reduces the number of Jews extant. Reducing the number of Jews was Hitler's plan and such intermarriage has the same effect as killing them outright. I guarantee you Rabbi Lamm knows the difference between killing a person and watching one intermarry so that after his death, no Jews exist. Poof, we are vanishing and Rabbi Lamm was merely pointing out what the demographers know–the non-Orthodox Jewish world is being vanquished by intermarriage. The effect of this action is analogous to Hitler's goal for the extermination of the Jewish people.
Might you prefer that the Orthodox world blithely accept the facts and happily await the time when only Orthodox Judaism stands? Secular and Orthodox Jew alike bemoan this state of affairs and it seems only Hitler would be pleased.
This is not a meany, anti-people, eat-your-spinach religion, not when it's done right. Oh! The dancing, clapping and singing at any Chabad, on a Friday night, rejoicing in the arrival of Shabbat! Nothing sourpuss about that, oh boy. It's a regular love-fest, open to every Jew, know matter who, and it happens every week, not once a year on your birthday.
Well, we think there is a God. We think we have a special relationship with Him. We have been thinking that for three millenia, at least. Some people say five. If we are wrong about that, you have a point! But we LIKE thinking this way, and let's face it, we really haven't hurt anybody merely by thinking it. We may have put baseballs through people's windows on an individual basis, but it was the baseball that broke the window, not our religion. Lots of people, in lots of religions and groups, hit wild and break windows, not just us!
As for the Shabbos thing, you are off-base. We are very big on not presuming to know medical outcomes. We NEVER know if something "would have a realistic chance of saving him or not, and if it probably wouldn't, it isn't worth violating Shabbos." For instance, we are instructed to pray for someone's complete recovery from a illness, even when they are a hundred and one, and are in a coma. Other people don't do that. Other people sigh and say, poor thing, I guess it's time. We re forbidden to do that because life and death are in G-d's hands only, and "you never know". We say G-d "delights in life".
First, to Anonymous: Thanks. I don't remember having heard this before (but my memory is failing). Shabbat Shalom to you, too.
Second, to David N.: I don't know anything about the dispute between Boteach and Hitchens besides the fact that there was one. Hitchens doesn't like religion, period. So it's wrong to paint this as anti-Semitism and take it personally (or group perpetuation-ally).
You write, "All Jews understand that life trumps Shabbos observance …. Your ignorance is clear–life trumps the mitzah of Shhabos, period." Isn't Rabbi Shalom Carmy a Jew? And an authority on the Halakhah? He says, in no uncertain terms, that in any case in which saving a Jew's life cannot be justified on the ground that observance of one Shabbos is sacrificed for the sake of a greater number of Shabbos observances, the observance of Shabbos is "inviolable." "Inviolable" means "may not be violated," even to save a life of a Jew–and I haven't yet broached the issue of saving non-Jews' lives.
How do you explain this? Repeating your assertions without anything to back them up but your personal say-so doesn't cut it. (Otherwise, the study of gemara could cease; everyone could just consult your postings.)
"it is surely odd that you persist in this line of questioning, without acknowledging your point …." Huh?
You also indicate that you don't know how what I've written "feeds into the topic." It feeds into the attempt to deflect or reject criticisms by what Lanez (above) aptly called "a my-sperm-is-more-prolific-and-Jewish-than-yours argument" and I called a "group-perpetuation fetish." Or, as Chimales wrote (above), "the first thing that the UO do when questioned about the morality of
anything that they are doing, is point out that they have more Jewish children than everyone else." (You say this is a "bizarre conclusion," but, as you see, it isn't mine alone, though I wouldn't implicate the UO as a whole.) I'm interested in whether this has an actual religious source, perhaps what I've called the "mitzvah-perpetuation fetish."
"But to say that Judaism sets up laws to perpetuate service to laws ignores the Jewish mission, humanity at large and ignores the Jewish contribution to civilization." First of all, I didn't say anything about Judaism, or even Jews, or even some Jews, "set[ting up] laws," much less setting them up for a purpose. Can you please respond to what I actually write, rather than substituting red herrings? Second of all, as you do understand, a body of law can be contradictory, so you can't circumvent the implications of one law by pointing to a different one, much less by pointing to vaguer things like mission and contribution to civilization. Thirdly, as to whether performance of alleged mitzvot is viewed as an end-in-itself, i.e., what about the "special limmud" that Rabbi Carmy cites, violation of Shabbat is ok in order to have more Shabbatot observed, but not otherwise?
"Please tell me if you go to gay-pride websites and tell them they have a 'group perpetuation fetish[']?" No, I don't go to any. In any case, this is a very bad analogy, because, as I've indicated, it's one thing to try to perpetuate a group as a way of perpetuating the individuals in the group (e.g., fighting Nazis out to exterminate the Jews) or when struggling on behalf of the group is a way of trying to better the lives of the individual people in the group (e.g., gay pride and rights). It's another thing when group perpetuation is considered an end-in-itself or pursued even when it is detrimental to the people in the group (e.g., absurd comparisons of voluntary intermarriage to Hitler's death camps, which unspeakably trivialize genocide and mass extermination; forcing people to give their lives in defense of a piece of cloth or a symbol ["the flag"]).
BTW, in response to one of your earlier points, I didn't "knock Rabbi Lamm simply for sticking up for Judaism." I knocked him for his absurd comparison of voluntary intermarriage to Hitler's death camps, which unspeakably trivialized genocide and mass extermination.
Where is your M..–it is surely odd that you persist in this line of questioning, without acknowledging your point or even how this feeds into the topic.
We read in Devarim very soon that we are commanded to perform Hashem's mitzvot so that we shall live by them. All Jews understand that life trumps Shabbos observance–where we are not necessarily implored to save the life of another, instead of being permitted to save live is meant to remove the onus from the person who attempts to save a life and might fail. Your ignorance is clear–life trumps the mitzah of Shhabos, period. No coincidence, this whole debate was part of the fracas between Shmuey Boteach and Christopeher Hitchens. Hitchens has unbridled contempt for Judaism and his motivation is clear–he will lie and distort to make his point that Jews are so tied to "alleged" (as you say!!) mitzvot that they are encouraged to not save a life if the circumstance falls on Shabbos. Poor Shmuey went ballistic and now you are here to echo Hitchens. For Hitchens, it is a lie, for you (I need to judge to the positive) it is ignorance.
Further, if you want to go further, there are actually many parts of the laws of Shabbos that can be ignored if health needs arise–all of this in tribute to Judaism's exaltation of life. Yes, one might excoriate Judaism for being pro-life–go ahead if this is your point. But to say that Judaism sets up laws to perpetuate service to laws ignores the Jewish mission, humanity at large and ignores the Jewish contribution to civilization. On the other hand, a critic might observe concerning US law and the profusion of laws that comes from bureaucracy that the law is established to extend the power and influence of the bureaucratic agencies. To argue that the the hundreds of thousands of laws are there to "help" people strains all creduility–so if you wish to complain about American secular law–I am right there with you since much of it has no rhyme or reason, is endlessly confused and contradictory and does not serve the people.
Save your own life or the life of another so that you might LIVE to see many more days–if this is somehow controversial–you are reaching for some unknown and rather bizarre conclusion about a so-called "group perpetuation fetish"–yes we live as Jews just we live as Americans. Indeed, among us there is great pride in creating a positive environment for one's life as a homosexual. Please tell me if you go to gay-pride websites and tell them they have a "group perpetuation fetish?"
"A population crash, which if it were a species of seal, bear or bird, would be front-page news."
I wasn't aware that Jews constituted a separate species of humans, except in the minds of their oppressors. Please advise.
Lanez, it's not a contest, it's a lamentation. Some of us are lamenting the population crash of our non-Orthodox contingent, which is most of us. A population crash, which if it were a species of seal, bear or bird, would be front-page news. When Uncle and Auntie had one kid, that was a fifty-percent population crash. When that one kid has three degrees and a girlfriend, who herself has seven degrees, and isn't interested in bending her neck to the domestic yoke, because the office is more fun and pays better, that is extinction.
You are not intruding, but don't expect to understand us. We are us, and you are you. Everybody seeks the light in his own way, according to their destiny, heritage and assignment from Upstairs. Peace.
How exactly did an article about a company become a my-sperm-is-more-prolific-and-Jewish-than-yours argument?
Because, for some bizaare reason, the first thing that the UO do when questioned about the morality of anything that they are doing, is point out that they have more Jewish children than everyone else.
Don't feel bad. I haven't figured out the logic of 'Yes, I just hit a woman with a baseball bat because she was showing an inmodest amount of leg… BUT I HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN YOU SO GOD LOVES ME MORE!!' either. It's just one of those things that they do.
Really, it's kind of 'shanda fur die Goyim' at this point the amount of screaming that a humanistic argument about the human rights can cause amongst the Char Headed.
People only can live so long. But Moshe Feinstein is very much alive and well our minds. If you cite him at ALL, you have to take what comes with him, as a whole bundle, observance. You are a Feinsteiner. You can't cherry-pick what you like about his teaching. You have plenty of company on this forum, it seems, as a Feinsteiner.
This is not a take-a-vote situation: it's ok to be in the minority. It doesn't matter that those other folks you list aren't with you on this. They aren't Feinsteiners. So what. To each his own.
>>>YOU torpedo your own point, Sharmya, by mentioning that wonderful man, Moshe Feinstein. He was decidedly Orthodox, and, HE had an ethical attitude toward workers such as these, you say yourself. Sooooo, maybe it's an individual, or a specific company, that can present a problem, or be out of line, NOT Orthodoxy. <<<
Please.
What Rav Moshe ruled was clear. Too bad Agudath Israel, the OU, Young Israel, Chabad, dozens of kashrut organizations, hundreds of Orthodox rabbis, and thousands of Orthodox Jews (judging from their current silence, as explained above), do not follow his ruling.
The only argument that can be made is, if Rav Moshe were still alive and well, Orthodoxy would act differently.
But Rav Moshe is not alive and well.
Let me say up front that I'm not Jewish nor an active member of any other religious belief system. As such, I completely understand that my opinion and thoughts on this article and the subsequent comments that have followed may be ignored or considered soiled in some way and thus unworthy.
That being said, I have to admit that I'm a bit confused by the bickering — bickering that reminds me a great deal of what I've heard nearly all my life in Christian circles between denominations as each one tries to "one up" the next in terms of closeness to God and overall holiness. How exactly did an article about a company become a my-sperm-is-more-prolific-and-Jewish-than-yours argument?
For just a moment lets consider that Agriprocessors manufactured lunch boxes. Although a certain percentage of those lunch boxes contained uplifting scripture or images that reaffirmed faith, the vast majority of the lunch boxes were secular. Because those who owned and operated the company had such close ties within the religious community, many chose to purchase the "faithful" lunch boxes. Then, when confronted with allegations of abuse at the plant, of untold numbers of undocumented workers being hired, of sub-standard pay based on position, of possible exploitation both in and outside of the plant itself by the religious and secular community, there would be a high probability that many would cease to look upon their "faithful" lunch boxes with such affection.
This argument, however, isn't as simple as lunch boxes. Although I've tried, I cannot fathom a real product within another religious community that would compare with kosher food. The closest I can get is to try to imagine a company that would manufacture prayers. In many religions, prayers are a way for individuals to be observant of all that is holy and to surround and fill themselves with holiness. When people say prayers, they are trained to speak from their heart and to breathe life into their words so that the words are worthy enough to be heard. It is common knowledge that prayers built on personal pride, greed and a belief of entitlement are doomed to failure. In fact, I was taught as a child that to offer such a prayer without sincerity could only be worse if, after the fact, the one offering the prayer held it up as holy and true.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is two-fold:
First, there is nothing in my religious background that relates directly to what some Jews have described to me as the sacredness of staying kosher and consuming kosher meat. Second, the closest thing I have is prayer and, if I had to allow someone else to write my prayers, I'd feel compelled to ensure that the words I spoke were as pure and "sacred" as if I'd been able to compose them myself. After all, I can't imagine honoring the holy with something already tainted.
No irony, no irony. That was totally straight. As there is always another Shabbat coming, even in a few days or even in a week, one can wish somebody Shabbat Shalom ANY TIME, ANY DAY. It is a particularly Jewish, civil, way to say "so long". I figured you were a Jew. If not, have a nice day of whatever kind you like.
As for the group-perpetuation fetish, well, yes, we think we are supposed to both honor this thinking, and see it goes forward. People can take or leave the Bible according to their lights, but, it DOES say, in Deuteronomy someplace, I think "… you shall teach them (these commandments) diligently to your children…" It's right there in black and white. Isn't that part of the Shema? Somebody smart will know. It's not a fetish, it's part of our culture.
As for culture, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
Hi, Anonymous: You just wished me "Shabbat Shalom" on a Tuesday
morning (8/19/08, 11:04 AM), so I guess you're right that
"Torah observance is a living dynamic, not an exact science." :-) Or
maybe what you're right about is that "there is [not] one right
answer." :-) Or maybe you were just being ironic.
In any
case, my point had nothing to do with ambiguity, mushiness,
uncertainty, etc. I was exploring whether there is "an actual
religious source" to what I called the "group-perpetuation fetish": "I
gather from the orthodox responses to Feldman that, insofar as the
group-perpetuation fetish has an actual religious source, it is that
the purpose of Jews is to perform alleged 'mitzvot.' In principle,
performance of some of these alleged mitzvot' (like keeping the
Sabbath) trumps even the saving of human life–including the lives of
Jews." (my posting of 8/18/08, 12:19 AM) Please note the words "in
principle"; I was talking about the Halakhah itself, not about how to
apply it in a concrete situation.
In response, David N.
Friedman accused me of making an "ignorant slur": "any Jew knows that
we are commanded to break Shabbos to save a life–what an ignorant
slur." So I then pointed out that there's another Jew who doesn't know
this, Rabbi Shalom Carmy of Yeshiva U, and that the "ignorant slur" is
his, not mine:
"not all mitsvot can be violated to save life.
Idolatry, sexual offenses and murder may not be allowed even to save
life . . . For Jews Shabbat may be violated to save life, but only on
the basis of a special limmud (inference)—'desecrate one Shabbat so
that he may observe many Shabbatot.' Where this principle does not apply, Shabbat is inviolable."
(Rabbi Shalom Carmy, "Truth And Consequences", _Kol Hamevaser_,28th
July 2007 [http://www.kolhamevaser.com/?p=9], emphasis added.)
Since
Carmy, too, was referring to the Halakhah itself, not about how to
apply it, there's not an iota of ambiguity or mushiness in his
statement: "may not be allowed," "may be violated . . . only on the
basis of," "is inviolable." Any ambiguity or mushiness pertains only
to what counts as idolatry, sexual offenses, and murder, to whether the
"principle" ("special limmud") does or does not apply in a particular
case, and, perhaps, to whether Shabbat begins on Tuesday night. :-)
Hi,
David N. I'll be happy to discuss what you call "the issues," even
your issues that I find to be red herrings (e.g., "It is fine if you
want to teach your children that nothing in any
collective is desirable–only look out for yourself and survive as an
individual"), in addition to my original issue: the group-perpetuation
fetish. But I'll do so one point at a time. There is so much wrong
with what you say, factually and logically, that if I were to take it
up as a whole, I would just have to dismiss it. The only alternative
is to take up your claims one by one and show what's wrong with them
individually (e.g, that the above statement of yours is a red
herring).
I
chose to begin by selecting what you call a "narrow" point. I, on the
contrary, think this point goes to the heart of the matter. It sharply
reveals the mitzvah-perpetuation
fetish (the possible religious source of the group-perpetuation
fetish): "desecrate one Shabbat so that he may observe many
Shabbatot." According to Rabbi Carmy, this mitzvah-perpetuation
principle is the only principle that permits (permits, not mandates) the violation of Shabbat in order to save a Jew's life.
I
wrote, "In principle, performance of some of these alleged mitzvot'
(like
keeping the Sabbath) trumps even the saving of human life–including
the lives of Jews." You called this an "ignorant slur," and now you
accuse me of a "faulty argument[ ] based upon lies." But you yourself
now concede, "Yes, 3 mitzvot cannot be violated–even to save life."
But
you persist in maintaining that Shabbos is different: "Finally, your
quotation [from Rabbi Carmy] supports the truth that Shabbos can be
violated
and yes, must be violated to save a life–so why argue the OPPOSITE?"
This is incorrect, because, as I noted, he writes, "For Jews Shabbat may be violated
to save life, but only on the basis of a special limmud (inference)"
(my emphasis), not "must be violated." How do you manage to turn "may"
into "must"?
Moreover, you are guilty here of another red
herring. I have not "argue[d] the OPPOSITE." I never denied that
there are cases in which "Shabbos can be violated to save a life." My
alleged "ignorant slur" was rather this: "In principle, performance of
some of these alleged mitzvot' (like
keeping the Sabbath) trumps even the saving of human life–including
the lives of Jews." Note the words "in principle." Do you still
maintain that this is an "ignorant slur," given that Rabbi Carmy
acknowledges that, in any case in which the "inference" does not apply,
"Shabbat is inviolable"? Is he, too, guilty of an "ignorant slur"?
Where is Your M, you are being mechanistic. You are trying to make Torah-living an equivalent to mathematics, where there is one right answer. But life isn't mathematics. You are trying to scrub the ambivalence out, and that can't be done. All Jews are released on their own recognizance, and have to make judgment calls, outside the laboratory, right in the middle of living, as they encounter situations. There isn't always time to retreat and consider, and phone a rabbi, and ponder. Many decisions have to be made on the spot. They have spent a lifetime honing, training, perfecting their instincts, and hope they get it right. That doesn't guarantee they are right. So that's why we have Yom Kippur, to confess our sins, our wrong actions, when we did our best but it was wrong anyway. We have a forgiving G-d. We are not so arrogant as to imagine that, if we just know enough Torah, we are certain to be fine, holy fellows, and never wrong. Our very best people do plenty of wailing on Yom Kippur.
Torah observance is a living dynamic, not an exact science. You seem bothered by the fact that it is slippery, and you can't see the reason for everything. It seems irrational to you. Well, Judaism is an excellent reflector of life, which is indeed mushy and uncertain, but we just have to keep going, and doing our best, and trusting. Religious-level trusting is deep stuff. However, people trust all day anyway, no matter how much they think they don't, so, they might as well be organized about it, and face the issue of trusting squarely, because it isn't going to go away. It can't. Shabbat Shalom.
It is all too typical when people, like Where is the M.. use faulty arguments based upon lies are called on to defend themselves and instead, ignore the issues and stick with some narrow point.
I tried to bring you to an understanding that people fight and die for ideas and ideals all the time and you just don't want to talk about it. Your supposed higher principle of the individual is not supported with any argument or justification. Ideas and ideals worth fighting for and dying for become an integral part of many people's makeup. It is fine if you want to teach your children that nothing in any collective is desirable–only look out for yourself and survive as an individual. Your children would probably find this uninspiring but it would not be me to tell you or them that you are wrong. All I can do is observe that this is a standard without principle and without a higher calling.
The trouble is when you attempt to knock Rabbi Lamm simply for sticking up for Judaism, without any good argument. He is entitled to stand up against intermarriage and as I correctly observed, even secular minded Jews are opposed to intermarriage.
Finally, your quotation supports the truth that Shabbos can be violated and yes, must be violated to save a life–so why argue the OPPOSITE? You are straining to make a point here–what is it? Yes, 3 mitzvot cannot be violated–even to save life–is this your complaint? Would you be quick to attempt to save yourself by murdering someone else? And if you want to level some kind of broad attack against Judaism because it suggests that it is better to be allowed to be killed than to defiled oneself with idol-worship–it is thankfully not many of us that have ever been required to make that call.
I wrote, above, "In principle, performance of some of these alleged 'mitzvot' (like keeping the Sabbath) trumps even the saving of human life–including the lives of
Jews."
In response, David N. Friedman calls this an "ignorant slur": "any Jew knows that we are commanded to break Shabbos to save a life–what an ignorant slur."
I was merely repeating the "ignorant slur" made by Rabbi Shalom Carmy, an expert on Halakhah and professor at Yeshiva University:
"not all mitsvot can be violated to save life. Idolatry, sexual offenses
and murder may not be allowed even to save life, however this flies in
the face of our utilitarian mentality. Shabbat has much in common with
the so-called 'big three.' [Note R. Shimon’s view in Yerushalmi that a
bystander may intervene to prevent Shabbat violation even at the cost
of the transgressor’s life.] For Jews Shabbat may be violated to save
life, but only on the basis of a special limmud (inference)—'desecrate
one Shabbat so that he may observe many Shabbatot.' Where this
principle does not apply, Shabbat is inviolable." (Rabbi Shalom Carmy, "Truth And Consequences", _Kol Hamevaser_,28th July 2007 [http://www.kolhamevaser.com/?p=9], emphasis added.)
Nota Bene: He writes "may be violated," not "must be violated."
A colleague of mine runs a construction business in close proximity to the Rubaskhins Brooklyn facility. He happily employs many Guatemalans and expects that they are likely illegal. He is prevented by law from investigating if the documents given to him are accurate or not. A typical illegal makes $12/hour working for him. His 16 year old son, a frum Yid, makes $8/hour.
Tell me Shmarya, who is being exploited? His Guutemalans love working for him for $11-14/hour and my friend enjoys employing them. It is a very happy situation. Where does "exploitation" into the question? His young son also gets some experience.
Where is the M… wants to bash Rabbi Lamm over his opposition to intermarriage. Alas, even secular minded Jews decry intermarriage because even they have something at stake in the perpetuation of the Jewish people and the Jewish mission.
For the poster identified as "Where is the M…" the only thing worth defending is the survival of the individual without regard to how this ignores our common experience. Indeed, very obviously, good Americans are today risking their own lives for the ideas embedded in this great nation. A Father sacrifices for his son. A Jew exists to perpetuate NOT some set of mitzvot since the mitzvot will always exist but much more fundamentally to bind families for a Torah lifestyle and all that flows from Jewish identity. Noah Feldman will not have Jewish children and he will not have a Jewish marriage and this was the goal of Hitler–to stop Judaism from extending into the future.
Surely he was not the first. The Hellenists tried. Napoleon promised equality to the Jews as Frenchmen and nothing to the Jews who remained Jews first. Hitler proposed violent extermination. Secularism respects Jews as liberals but gives them nothing as Jews. This is the reality of a Jewish life to exalt Jewish ideals over all others and above our own sensibilities as individuals–even while we remain individuals.
Lastly, any Jew knows that we are commanded to break Shabbos to save a life–what an ignorant slur.
This is third time I will honor you with questions. How is exploitation defined in your eyes and at what point could you agree to support Agri products in the future? What would they have to do to quell your opposition?
You bring up halacha while you complain the the central expositors of halacha have looked into the matter and judge that hiring documented workers and paying them on time is within Jewish law. My objection is beyond the known halacha and I have specific criteria that will allow for my future support of this company.
I do not recall the specific facts of the case of migrant farm workers, nor do I recall Reb Feinstein's ruling. I can't see how that ruling would have an impact on this matter so I ask you yet again, since it does not matter if they are legal or illegal and we are merely speaking about workers, Jewish law would not see the status as defining from what I understand. The status of a migrant worker I suppose could be seen as a special class of worker but given the fact that some 20 million "illegal" workers are commonly employed in America (perhaps 15 million are actually workers and 5 million either in jail and not employable in some manner)–I can't follow that this status has any special halachic significance but I welcome you to inform me.
And of course, Orthodox is ethical.
There are plenty of educated Orthodox Jews in the world who are billionares. You're just an anti-semitic piece of crap. Nice work spousing hitler's views with your uneducated views on Israel and Judaism. I have a feeling you have shiksa mother.
YOU torpedo your own point, Sharmya, by mentioning that wonderful man, Moshe Feinstein. He was decidedly Orthodox, and, HE had an ethical attitude toward workers such as these, you say yourself. Sooooo, maybe it's an individual, or a specific company, that can present a problem, or be out of line, NOT Orthodoxy.
Thank you! There goes your argument about Orthodoxy being the source of the problem! Maybe it's sweeping generalizations that are contraindicated?
You seem to be an Orthodox Jew. If so, you really should know some halakha. But pretty much everything you write shows a vast ignorance of it.
>>>They are not here to make $15/hour and have a share in the pension plan–they are here to work for the minimum wage and below. Therefore, if working for Agri for $8/hour is exploitation, their next job at $7/hour is what? How is "exploitation" defined in your eyes?<<<
Halakha would not allow two identically skilled workers to be treated differently based on their legal status.
You might remember Rabbi Moshe Feinstein outlawed California grapes and lettuce that came from non-union growers because of the exploitation of migrant farm workers.
If you want to have a discussion about this issue based on halakha, then base it on halakha.
If your point is that halakha isn't relevant or that it has nothing to say about this situation, then you have proved my point – being Orthodox is a contraindication to being ethical.
The Orthodox tend to breed a lot, and to indoctrinate their kids such
that the latter remain Jews. So what? What kind of "argument" for
Orthodoxy is that? What makes the perpetuation of group identity–as opposed to the survival and flourishing of individual people–so precious?
This group-perpetuation fetish pervades the thinking even of the most
erudite modern orthodox. Rabbi Norman Lamm (head of Yeshiva U) had the
audacity to tell Noah Feldman that, because he married a non-Jew, he
was continuing what Hitler started! And this wasn't said in private.
This was in Lamm's published reply to Feldman.
Does Lamm really not see the difference between extermination and
assimilation? Does he really not see that Hitler was trying to wipe out
human beings, on "racial" lines, rather than a religion?
Does he really not see that "the survival of the Jewish people" is one
thing when it's a way of helping to ensure the survival of the
individual people in the group, but a different thing when the goal is
to perpetuate a group identity, even at the cost of sacrificing the
well-being of the individual people in the group?
I gather from the orthodox responses to Feldman that, insofar as the
group-perpetuation fetish has an actual religious source, it is that
the purpose of Jews is to perform alleged "mitzvot." In principle,
performance of some of these alleged "mitzvot" (like keeping the
Sabbath) trumps even the saving of human life–including the lives of
Jews.
Those who make such a ganze megillah of the "survival of the Jewish
people" (in Lamm's sense) should at least be clear that their real goal
is the perpetuation of a set of rituals, not the survival, much less
the flourishing, of individual people.
Shamarya, I keep asking you to define your terms and you won't help yourself. And now you concede that it is not that they hire illegals but how they treat workers. But this fails to consider how illegals are treated in the first place and the fact that this treated is the momentum to CAUSE them to stream into our country by the millions. They are not here to make $15/hour and have a share in the pension plan–they are here to work for the minimum wage and below. Therefore, if working for Agri for $8/hour is exploitation, their next job at $7/hour is what? How is "exploitation" defined in your eyes?
I agree that child labor is illegal on its face. I agree that a clear-cut illegality legitimately smears Agri –but after that point, where does your scandal campaign end? At what point does the alleged exploitation cease? Why does the fact of a union mean anything since 92% of the economy is union-free? If you want the government to set the minimum wage and Agri meets that wage–how is it exploitative to pay that wage? Consumers would be happier if a Jewish business paid most of its employees significantly more than a minimum wage and they would also be happier if the prices they paid for the product were competitive. Can you see that both things are important to the consumer? Indeed, if the left gets its way, kosher meat could be so expensive, our community would suffer. Once we get beyond the easy red lines, there are competing criteria you seem to want to ignore, am I right?
At some point, I will be happy to buy Rubaskhin products. Just for the sake of the argument, please state on what terms you would buy Rubaskhin products. It is my belief that you would NEVER buy their product, no matter what and if that is your stand, how dare you draw such a complaint in our community?
In 1950, 10% of American Jewry was Orthodox, the rest Conservative or Reform.
In 2000, 10% of American Jewry was Orthodox, the rest Conservative or Reform.
Where have so many of the Orthodox children gone? They have become Conservative and Reform.
Conservative and Reform Jewry will survive.
The Orthodox like to ask others,"Will your grandchildren be Jewish?" The same question applies to their great grandchildren.
The 2007 survey of American muslims by the Pew Research center shows that the younger generation of muslims – those born in the US to immigrant parents – is in every way more successful than their foreign born parents – Theses us born muslims are much more educated, much more successful in their careers, and earn more money than their parents. The miracle of assimilation in to the US mainstream appears to be working.
But when you read the survey further, this younger generation is much more radicalized in terms of terrorism and violence towards jews. The younger muslims in the US are much more likely to say they support suicide bombing.
The US muslim community is the sea in which those perpetrating anti-jewish violence in the US will swim – as you have seen in France, only a small percentage of those muslims that support the idea of violence against jews actually take to the streets and engage in such violence, but they receive tacit support from a wider community.
The jews reading this blog are members of a generation that is guilty of destroying the one best safe haven that jews have had – the haven of the United States. Rich and powerful jews in the US stood by during the holocaust, and did not use the full weight of their influence to press the US government to rescue European jews. The reasons are well documented – fear of appearing "too pushy" fear of appearing too parochial in their interests and motivations, desire to not appear too "tribal" . In any event, the jews reading this blog use the same language to describe why they allow millions of muslims to move to the usa, even though the increase in the muslim numbers in the usa will cause our grandchildren to live in an America with suicide bombings of synagogues and JCC's, random attacks in the streets against anyone that is visibly jewish, and a generally uncomfortable environment for jewishness.
Thanks to the activities of pro-immigration jews, France is not inhospitable to Jews and the Jewish community of France is being dispersed around the world with some moving to Israel and some to the US – Once the same pro-immigration jews render the US uninhabitable for our grandchildren, where are our grandchildren supposed to move – what safe havens will still exist
Of course the treatment of these poor immigrants is a stain on the cruel people that perpetrated this.
But the larger issue is being ignored – current US immigration policy is leading inevitably to pogroms against jews here in the United States.
Do not forget that the Jewish community in the US is the most reliably pro-immigration group in the country. In France the Jewish community was similarly pro immigration. The result in France is rampant violence against Jews, including the kidnapping and torture of jews.
We are heading in the same direction in the USA. We American Jews are good hearted but sometimes soft headed. We are signing the death warrant of our own children by our current actions. And this is not a left / right or Democrat / Republican issue. Look carefully – the major Jewish donors to both political parties are aggressive advocates of the immigration that dooms our community.
There are many places on the web in which Muslim immigrants to the United States promise to launch pogroms against American Jews – for more details please click on the following web page http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/steinlight2.html or google "High Noon to Midnight Why Current Immigration Policy Dooms American Jewry"
We American jews are truly laying the groundwork for a repeat here in America of what our brothers in France are experiencing.
http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/5914
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1684
Here in LA the Hareidim control the neighborhoods around Hancock Park and the modern orthodox control the pico neighborhood.
Hasn't yet turned violent but there are clear turf battles and threats of violence.
Is it the same in other US cities or is this situation unique to LA
Or they will in-breed themselves to the point of extinction. Although, I'll admit, Kool-aid would be quicker. And it IS kosher…as long as one holds by the OU.
The Charedim will eventually enter the final common pathway of all religious lunatics, such as the christian cults and the muslim taliban types.
The women will be wrapped in dark schmatas, each family with a dozen uncontrollable kids, everybody on welfare and food stamps, their leaders preaching fear, anger and hate, and an ongoing effort to cheat and undermine anyone who's not one of their own. Eventually they turn upon and attack one another, or try to physically attack some government agency, at which point their break from civilization becomes official. Sometimes the cult decides to check out altogether, like Jonestown.
You are right. MO is in rough shape, no question. The reasons for that, in my opinion, are many. Lack of strong rabbinic leadership and a tendency to capitulate to the right are two big ones.
But for those of us who genuinely believe in the way we live, giving up and going 'frei' is not an option. Speaking only for myself here, all I can say is that I do what I can. I am not in denial, but life can't stop and become just a war on the crazies. It is very possible that I am young and idealistic, but I can't throw in the towel. I can raise my children to be educated, open-minded, committed Jews. What they do with that will be up to them – and isn't that true of parenting in general? Look, the charedim are going to become another Judaism, no question about it. I am not going to do anything to support that, but I can't stop being a Jew because of them either.
"while the orthodox have their yeshiva educations in which secular studies are largely ignored. Therefore, the orthodox are functioning with an elementary school level of knowledge when it comes to the English language, history and culture."
Dude, stereotype much? I am Orthodox. I hold a BA. I am the least educated of my friends. Each week at the Shabbat table in the homes of my friends (also Orthodox) I am surrounded by physicians, attorneys, university professors, social workers, PhDs in a variety of subjects. Not all of us are streimel wearing sheltered chasidim. I do not for one moment assume those of you who are not observant are the same. I recognize that there can be a variety of opinions, even among a seemingly homogenous group. I don't mean to sound all kumbaya, but if you could for a moment consider that modern orthodox are as turned off by the chasidim as you, maybe we would make a more powerful counter to their influence.
Shabbat Shalom.
There is just no time to crank out the kids the way the charedim do it. It pisses me off to no end… All I can do is raise my kids not to be like them and hope for the best. Quality not quantity?
It isn't solely a matter of numbers, althought that is certainly an important part. Under their influence, all of Orthodoxy has moved considerably to the right. MO is producing no new outstanding or outspoken leaders, and the few you have (the Greenbergs, Avi Weiss) aren't getting any younger. On the other hand, there is a Hareidi rov with an opinion and a big mouth on every street corner.
I'd argue that the long-predicted schism has occurred. There are now two Judaisms – Hareidism and "secular" Jewry. The Right Wing Modern Orthodox have capitulated to the Hareidim, and the "Centrists" are really Right Wingers who are a little less confrontational. This leaves the Left Wing Modern Orthodox caught uncomfortably in the middle, dancing back and forth across an ever-shifting line. It can't continue much longer. When your children are of parental age, they will either be Hareidim, frei, or will disassociate from Judaism altogether – because these will be the only options.
The Modern Orthodox with whom I am acquainted are, almost universally, in denial. Even when there is acknowledgment, there is a reluctance to criticize other frum Jews – loshon hora, etc. This laissez faire attitude will be your undoing. I don't much care, but, if you do, you (collectively) need to take a much more proactive approach regarding the co-opting of your belief system by your Hareidi brethren.
(In the meantime, will you do an old man a favor? Pick a pseudonym. It's bad enough the Hareidim who vent on these blogs can't be bothered to come up with anything more imaginative than "Anonymous"; there's no reason that you, with your education, can't!)
A lot of nonorthodox Jews on this blog must repeat themselves, with explanations of what they meant, because the orthodox can't seem to comprehend the point on many postings. Grammatical expressions, idioms, nuances of the language, the modern lexicon– these all seem to be lost on the orthodox.
I would venture to guess that the average nonorthodox writer here has a grad school degree, while the orthodox have their yeshiva educations in which secular studies are largely ignored. Therefore, the orthodox are functioning with an elementary school level of knowledge when it comes to the English language, history and culture.
The frustration which this causes the orthodox is why they are the ones more likely to resort to four-letter words and vulgarity. Just look at the vocabulary, grammar and spelling of some of the orthodox entries on blogs.
So, in addition to the delusions of persecution, exaggerated self-importance, and the organized system of paranoia, this inability to communicate at the level of an intelligent adult is also part of the root problem the orthodox seem to have.
>>>What exactly have AGri- been convincted of? Nothing. Very good. So all your allegations, and blunt hatred is exposed, in glaring fasion. <<<
Agriprocessors has been repeatedly found to be in violation of:
1. US Labor law.
2. US and Iowa Environmental law.
3. US Humane Slaughter law.
4. US and Iowa law with regard to worker safety (OSHA).
We also know:
5. Agriprocessors' workforce was 75% illegal on the day of the raid.
6. Blank green cards were found stacked in Agri's HR Department by federal agents during that raid.
7. Two senior Agri supervisors have been arrested and charged with felonies and one more fled indictment and is hiding in Israel.
8. Two Agri employees were arrested on weapons charged shortly before the raid, and some of the chemicals they had came from Agri.
9. Iowa's Department of Labor found 57 child workers at Agriprocessors, at least one as young as 13. 24 of these children – including the 13 year old – were arrested on the day of the raid.
And this is by no means an exhaustive list.
As for this:
>>>In a free market, the company prefers immigrant workers to others–is this a problem on its face? Since significant segments of the entire economy is premised on illegal immigration, should our community protest illegal aliens working in the construction business–should we raid kosher restaurants to make sure some bus boy's Social Security number is actually legit? <<<
The issue is not simply the legal status of the workers, and this has been pointed out many times.
The primary issue is how those workers – illegal or not – are treated.
Many companies hire illegals. Not that many companies abuse them and treat them as if they were slaves.
Another issue is Agriprocessors participation in identity theft. Blank green cards stacked in the HR department. Senior supervisors taking bribes from illegals and then getting those illegals fake documents and hiring them.
>>>Can a community really dictate that a private company that performs a public service have a particular labor policy?<<<
It can, especially when that company sells a specifically kosher product to the Jewish community – and especially when halakha, Jewish law, has been repeatedly and egregiously violated by that company.
wat a minute. Ive studied economics.. If this were an intensely competitive market, with firms constantly undercutting each other, that argument, the drive to the lowest costs (or drive to the bottom for you social justice types) driven by the market, would make sense.
But this is kosher meat we're talking about. If theres a widely available alternative to rubashkins, can someone please tell me who it is? In my community Rubashkin is the ONLY widely available fresh kosher beef.
and yes, that IS a deterrent to increasing observance for at least this Masorti Jew.
If the leadership of Agriprocessors is guilty of violating the law, wont they be punished by federal and state authorities? The agenda here goes beyond what is going on Postville, it is an assault on Judaism that is aimed at all of Jewish law-the Torah, Kashrut, Shabbat, and all ofthe laws that are the fundamental building blocks of civilization. If Mr Shmarya has knowledge of child abuse in Orthodox circles, one wonders why he doesnt present it to the police? Is this a case that he has information on, or is it just slander. I cant wait for the Christian blood in the matzah story, it is unoriginal, but effective and enduring.
If Judaism is so revolting, why dont you make your displeasure really clear and convert to Islam. Instead of masturbating on this forum, you could make a real impact as a shaheed (Shmarya and wool, are you listening?)
OK I hear you both. But watch out, Modern Orthodox, because "quality, not quantity, no?" has the same ring as "the check is in the mail" and "of course I respect you". Careful. Twelve grandchildren are twice as much fun as six. You shouldn't limit yourself to six. We don't want you wondering what the other six would have been like. A degree costs like a child, but is less fun.
Yes, Shamyra, I know how to read. Yes, Agriprocessors has a labor dispute–this is wildly different from all the other allegations about non-kosher meat, Rabbi-approved drug labs on site, Rabbis sexually assaulting workers–etc. These are not factual.
Your take no prisoners attitude is horrible. I am on your side to the extent I feel this firm lacks the kind of Yiddishcheit I would like to see in not simply a Jewish owned business but a business that offers a public service specifically to our community. But at what point can a community opinion concerning labor practices become a legitimate complaint? Can a community really dictate that a private company that performs a public service have a particular labor policy? If 60% of the community is fine with hiring illegals and 40% is not on board–what does that say? If Obama becomes President (G-d forbid!) and all illegals get amnesty–then, what happens to your complaint? If a union is forced on them and the workers still go out on strike–do you automatically support the workers because they have a complaint?
In a free market, the company prefers immigrant workers to others–is this a problem on its face? Since significant segments of the entire economy is premised on illegal immigration, should our community protest illegal aliens working in the construction business–should we raid kosher restaurants to make sure some bus boy's Social Security number is actually legit? Is every Jewish liberal ready to join Tom Tancredo in a fight to deport illegal aliens AFTER they have been living here for years? If "exploitation" is so obvious–why can't you define your terms? By your standard, the hiring of *any* illegal is exploitative–so what makes Rubaskhin more exploitative then the next guy who hires the same illegal for the same price, with the same or normally lesser benefits? Why don't you see that millions of illegals flooding our country exploits US?
You have failed to ask and answer almost any relevant question,, including those I just asked and instead you have decided to bring a blanket indictment against an established firm, scream that they are all liars and criminals–then, you disparage Jews of good will who have a different take on the problem.
I suggest you start making some points or withdraw your complaint completely.
A definition for you:
Understatement: a type of irony in which something is intentionally described as less than it actually is.
'bit', 'ad nauseum', elements of understatement. Attempting to make a point without going verse and line.
Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat, 31a I believe.
Beatles, Hallmark? Um… and you accuse me of drifting. I can say honestly that I have ever paid attention to the beatles, or bought a hallmark card. Couple of Dead Kennedy's albums, sure, but no Beatles.
As far as my statement begininning 'At times I feel…', it is in fact a statement, however, as with anything involving human nature it isn't a fact. I am sure that Haredi run the gamut on how they feel about 'others'. What I am stating is that their behaviour makes <i>me</i> feel as though they consider others less than themselves. Completely valid statement.
So more direct then. Can you honestly suggest that if you have a <i>Daily, even hourly, engagement with the idea of an involved Creator</i> and yet you find it acceptable to mistreat and misuse people that all of your study of minutae amounts to a rat's ass at the end of the day? Human Beings (all of them) are a <b>little</b> more important than the details of the possible transgressions involved in the use of an electrical device on Friday evening. And that ain't Beatles or Hallmark. That is cold, hard reality.
And, I think that, and the hypocrisy involved in reaffirming the halaca involved with say, food laws, and ignoring those involved with the human and respectful treatment of your fellow human beings, was the point of the original post.
<i>pero komo eshtan tercos eshtes hombres, Di- mio!!</i>
"The problem is that the Hareidim are Orthodoxy now. The Modern Orthodox fell asleep on watch, the Hareidim moved in and began breeding like rabbits, and they now own the franchise."
I know and it is scary! Modern Orthodox types (myself included) are too busy getting college degrees, real jobs, and interacting with the world. There is just no time to crank out the kids the way the charedim do it. It pisses me off to no end. But do I throw the baby out with the bathwater and stop following the Torah because I don't like the way the chardei live? That wouldn't do much good. All I can do is raise my kids not to be like them and hope for the best. Quality not quantity?
What do you mean "that bit from Hillel"? Can you cite where it comes from in Talmud? Where did Hillel himself get it, in Torah? If you can't, how is it going to be remembered? As a Hallmark greeting card jingle, about how it's nice to be nice, and can't we all get along? Give peace a chance? It's not a Beatles lyric. Do you think serious thought endures if nobody studies it in an intense, concentrated way? Do you think Hillel will be remembered longer than the Beatles, who thought all you need is love? If so, won't that be because of time and energy invested in textual study and discussion?
"At time I feel" is not an argument. It isn't a fact either. What do you mean, "ad nauseum"? Daily, even hourly, engagement with the idea of an involved Creator is what created a Hillel in the first place. He wasn't a greeting card jingle writer or a Beatle. He was a Torah scholar. He would have liked you to be one. He started at age 40… what a guy.
Hey Jeff, "conservative judism" is dead already, isn't ? I wonder, in
conservative, and reform judism, what allows an individual to enter?
Just knocks on the door of the church and says "i'm conservative jew
give me a shawl"? curious….
Yes, well – I'm sure you know all about it.
I'm Orthodox, but that doesn't mean that all the negative stories
coming out of the Orthodox world are not upsetting to me too. The
charedim are getting it wrong and exploiting Torah. They are
fundamentalists, plain and simple.
Anonymous,
The problem is that the Hareidim are Orthodoxy now. The Modern Orthodox fell asleep on watch, the Hareidim moved in and began breeding like rabbits, and they now own the franchise.
First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance
What's funny here is that we are being told that we have no right to critize a fellow Jew because they are working so hard to observe Torah that they can't be bothered with, you know, human rights abuses.
Question. Agreed, all of the kashrut minutae, etc ad nauseum are part of Torah… but doesn't observing Torah also include observing the laws regarding the rights of workers, and the whole 'created in the image and likeness' thing? Or was that just the Orthodox that where created that way. At times, I feel that they don't only perceive non-Jews as non-human, but also non-charedi as somewhat 'less than'.
What was that bit from Hilell? About loving your neighbor as yourself and the rest being commentary.
BTW. 'Born again Orthodox'????!!!!! WTF? Jew and Born Again shouldn't ever be used in the same phrase. Uff… that's just wrong. Like Kosher Bacon.
managed to convince the world that the Torah is not truth, and that G-d never "spoke" (whatever that means) to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai.
Good, now that the sarcasim is out of the way, let's go back to secular law.
What exactly have AGri- been convincted of? Nothing. Very good. So all your allegations, and blunt hatred is exposed, in glaring fasion.
Now, the voices of the observant jews will be heard, with their money.
It's very nice to see that you know a few passages from the Bible, but how do you have the balls to quote somthing as being "halacha"? Your brazenness is impressive, your lack of intelligence humors, but at the end of the day, you are what you are, a good blog writer. Your articles draw attention, people read them and respond, you do your job, but your still an idiot.
Hey Jeff, "conservative judism" is dead already, isn't ? I wonder, in conservative, and reform judism, what allows an individual to enter? Just knocks on the door of the church and says "i'm conservative jew give me a shawl"? curious….
"Conservative Jew, I don't know. The Orthodox have been predicting our demise for two hundred years. We're still here" –
Wait a minute! During those two hundred years there was no reliable, safe, contraception. There is, now. And, women couldn't make an independent living until forty years ago, with very few exceptions. And, there was huge social consensus that people should be married. Single was bad, and divorce was really bad. Pressure. Stigma. No more. Now that you have women who don't need anybody financially, or socially, and can "choose", it's a new world, and a very RECENT one. It is so recent that nobody knows what has hit them. While they are figuring it out – clever you, Conservative Jew! – it is rapidly becoming too late. A population with a median age of fifty doesn't need a china service for twelve.
Wow there is a lot of anger here. I'm Orthodox, but that doesn't mean that all the negative stories coming out of the Orthodox world are not upsetting to me too. The charedim are getting it wrong and exploiting Torah. They are fundamentalists, plain and simple. The words chillul hashem come to mind when I hear about much of what they are up to. But they aren't all of us, and our more moderate voices ARE out there if you look for it. We are here, raising our kids and living our lives, just as you are, and feeling dismayed at the turn Judaism is taking in charedi hands. We just don't make as sensational of a story as whatever the Charedi Behaving Badly story ju jour happens to be. You really cannot paint all Orthodox Jews with the same brush. I would never assume all non-observant Jews are the same.
Non orthodox judaism is dying out in America due to the low number of jewish children produced each generation… In the end, as much as i dislike the orthodox, they are the ones that
will survive – they will exist and my group – the conservative jews -
will not.
Conservative Jew,
I don't know. The Orthodox have been predicting our demise for two hundred years. We're still here.
It seems that nonorthodox Jews are the ones with the Nobel Prizes,
cures for diseases, and great works of the arts, literature and
thought.
Woolsilkcotton,
Haven't you heard? That's all part of the treife medina, and a Jew has no place in it. All that matters is wearing a black woolen suit in the summer and studying "Toyrah" all day.
“Everybody does it,” a Chabad hasid told me. “Why should Rubashkin be different?”
“The Torah,” I replied.
The hasid did not understand my response.
This sad, simple story cuts right to the heart of the problem. As with fundamentalists of all varieties – they don't get it; they're never going to get it.
First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance
Right… and the fact that they aren't being criticized by "Torah-observant" Jews proves that they haven't done anything wrong. Isn't that convenient?
If you disagree with anyone or anything orthodox, then you must be part of the vast left wing conspiracy of unions, PETA, 'progressive' Jews, 'pork eating' Jews, 'self-hating' Jews, liberals, Obama, The Forward, antisemites, nazis, and communists.
It seems that nonorthodox Jews are the ones with the Nobel Prizes, cures for diseases, and great works of the arts, literature and thought.
Foaming about nazis, nazis, nazis. Everyone and everything is a nazi. An antisemite. You are a nazi antisemite. An antisemitic nazi. A self-hating antisemitic nazi Jew. That's the orthodox contribution to modern thought.
That bizarre shirt from France is meant for ironic shock value; if you truly studied the Holocaust you would understand that wearing it does not make you a nazi. It's a reminder of man's inhumanity to man. Granted, it's probably too cutting edge for the masses, and most people would probably not understand the historic significance of the sign. But if you're orthodox, just start screaming antisemitism.
When the ultra-Orthodox start bandying about the, "You are a Jewish Nazi!" allegation.
That's right, frummies…anyone who disagrees with the way your fekachteh meat factory abuses workers is clearly a Nazi.
Listen up, penguins. Some of us came here way before you people, when you were still shlugging kaparos (oh, right, you still do that, sorry) and cursing the "treife medinah." And OUR ancestors fought hard for workers rights and conditions, so if you think we are going to shut up because you call us "Nazis," well, you are in for a rude shock.
We will gladly end the supply of kashrut rather than allow these shenanigans to continue in the name of kashrut. Got it?
So why not just clean up your act?
This is a T-shirt that is all the rage in the Belleville section of Paris. It is copied from the Nazi signs on the Lodz ghetto. Shmarya, would you wear it?
Listen to the tour of Postville, as seen on the BBC, and you'll hear more of how Rubashkin screwed prospective employees.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7545663.stm
I think you need to learn how to read.
Agriprocessors hired illegals, paid them less than $7 pre hour with no benefits – and this is Brooklyn, for God's sake! – and, when the tried to unionize Rubashkin claimed they couldn't because……they're illegals.
Agriprocessors then fired the union election observer.
The NLRB found against Agriprocessors, citing clear a Supreme Court ruling allowing illegals to unionize.
Agriprocessors then appealed three times and lost each time, still refusing to recognize employees vote to unionize.
Now, Agriprocessors is appealing to the US Supreme Court – the same court that has already clearly ruled illegals can unionize. Legal experts don't believe the Supreme Court will hear the case.
Agriprocessors is thought to be appealing to stall for time. Every day it waits for a court decision is a day it can underpay its workers and avoid paying benefits.
And that's not all. Workers allege 55 hour weeks with……no overtime paid, just like Postville.
They speak of abusive bosses.
And your glatt kosher chulent comes from that abuse.
I urge everyone to read the Forward's new exposé:
http://www.forward.com/articles/13997/
As for David N. Friedman, he won't believe anything negative about the Rubashkins until God Himself tells him.
Keep waiting David. I'm sure God is "proud" of you.
Ok, Shmarya, I have the Forward "expose" printed out and it comes down to the same old question–a company is hiring illegals. Absent in the discussion is the fact that there are perhaps 20 million illegals working for companies in America today. Alas, Agriprocessors has hired perhaps 17-25 illegals at their Brooklyn facility and the liberal Jewish press is having a field day over it.
I have said strongly on the record that I would not hire illegals and I have a specific take on the immigration issue. Interestingly, it is the Left at large that has taken a very liberal stand on the question, proposing amnesty.
In my book, I don't get it. Paying close to only minimum wage for illegal workers, is not a good way to run a business in the public eye. The line that everyone else is doing it may matter legally but is not a good strategy in terms of good public relations. As much as I despise unions, low wages have the affect of attracting union organizers. The family here is making tactical errors in its insistence that it can keep its most private decisions private and they are clearly guilty of being stubborn.
Abuse? Not really. Illegality? Yes, in the same way that 20 million others are also employed illegally. An affront to the nation's labor laws? They could have prevented this by being smarter. They could get a union forced on them and this is largely their own miscalculation.
The bottom line: a mountain or a molehill? It is a molehill.
You are not proving your case, Shmarya.
whoa who knew anonymous posters could come up with shit like that whodathunkit
Another of hitler's followers masquerading as a Jew. Fuck off nazi pig!
I usually agree with Roseberg's postings but the second and third paragraphs of this latest articles are totally misleading.
Rosenberg states that the overwhelming majority of the anti-Rubashkin's are non-orthodox. Well, the overwhelming majority of American Jews are non-orthodox, so that proves nothing.
Rosenberg then states that the overwhelming majority of Rubashkin defenders are orthodox. That seems to be true based on a review of news articles (although I'd be the first to admit there's no scientific poll here) . And that demonstrates a rather tiny point: that no one except the orthodox would have any self-interest in defending the Rubashkins. But one thing Rosenberg does NOT say is that the majority of orthodox are defending Rosenberg.
It could very well be that only a tiny minority of orthodox jews are defending the Rubashkins, and that the vast majority of jews, of all levels of religiosity, are horrified.
–Z
Jews along the entire continuum of religiosity have existed, yes, and even thrived, for thousands of years. Not all Jews since Day One have been Orthodox, and yet we are all still doing just fine and dandy, thank you very much.
There is a broad spectrum of belief and observance, and us Jews are all over it; many of us travel along the spectrum, in any given direction, on a regular basis. No matter what you think you are, there is always someone more religious and someone less religious than you.
Judaism has withstood the test of time because of its inherent virtue. Once it is no longer considered good and morally desirable, that's when all of us will go the way of the dinosaurs, no matter how religious you think you are.
If there is something good to come out of the Rubashkin disaster, it's that everyone's core beliefs have been shaken, and dialogues have been open amongst Jews of all kinds, even if those dialogues get a little nasty sometimes. We are all struggling with the implications and repercussions.
So to all my fellow blogmeisters, hunched over your computer screens after a long day's work, trying to sort out your feelings over this thing and that thing, please keep up the good work.
Just don't start throwing furniture, and we will all emerge stronger and better from this.
i guess i am a conservative jew that realizes that my lineage will die off – i don't mean literally that my children won't produce jewish grand children (though the odds are against it if my children don't decide to become orthodox) Rather i mean that people with the values i hold dear – the values of modern, intellectual, rational, ethical conservative judaism are not going to exist in the jewish community in the future.
I don't really like spending time with orthodox jews, and i find their fierce tribalism to be offensive. I see the agriprocessors scandal as just the tip of the iceberg - as i see it many if not most orthodox don't see non jews as fully human and many if not most orthodox don't feel guilty and sad about mistreating non jewish workers the way that perhaps most people like me would. So orthodox jews are tribal and uncaring towards those who are not outside the tribe.
Let me give you an example - if you look at reform and conservative jews that are wealthy, the vast majority of their charity donations are given to non jewish charities. This makes sense to me, my values are to help others, not just our group. But if you look at the charity given by orthodox jews it is almost entirely to jewish charities. Again, the orthodox behavior pattern is different than mine, almost alien to mine.
The only good thing i can say about the orthodox is that in 150 years they will still be here – their culture will survive, their bloodlines will survive. In the end, as much as i dislike the orthodox, they are the ones that will survive – they will exist and my group – the conservative jews – will not.
At least i take comfort in knowing my fate and seeing it clearly – and not deluding myself like most of my friends in the conservative community. I tend to be friends with people that are observant by conservative standards, they go to high holiday services. They are very offended to hear my spiel on this subject so that is why i am spouting off on this blog !
so is he part of gods private army doing holy work or is he an anti lubabitch/frum fruitcup? u cant have it both ways
clear that up for us morons -please
Shmarya,
You need to chill. Maybe your mole at Agri can help you score some of that Meth they make in Postville.
Whereas the stuff your write here and on your blog is often true, and I think you are doing holy work, Your hatred for all things Lubavitch and Frum permeates your writing and casts aspersions on most of your claims.
You expect us to believe that every Lubavitcher is corrupt and lying. Every Orthodox/Frum Jew is corrupt or has ulterior motives. Every journalist is on Chabad's doll (Sue Fishoff is of course the exception). Even the editor of the Yated (who went on the Lubinsky/Agri funded trip to Postville) is now a shill for Lubavitch.
(Yudel krinsky is probably a big fan of your site. Where else will he read that Lubavitch runs the media and wields such control)
Simultaneously, you want us to believe that none of your unnamed sources have axes to grind. You expect us to never questions your motives despite your obvious contempt to all things frum/lubavitch.
In the constant appeals to authority that appear in your writing, you expect us to accept that every Conservative/Reform institution is a paragon of righteousness and every Conservative/Reform/non-practicing Jew is an honest and ethical person. Please … Its tiring. When you get a moment, read the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. We don't say every Reform Jew is a philanderer, despite Eliot Spitzer. JTS has been trying to displace poor people in Washington Heights as part of its planned expansion. We don't say not to trust any Conservative rabbi being ordained by an organization that wants to toss old ladies onto the streets.
Still don't stop doing what you are doing. You are doing holy work, despite all the baggage that comes along with it.
and yet u classify urself as a conservative jew …………………………
run that by me again….please
As a conservative jew, i have to reluctantly agree with the orthodox posters here. Non orthodox judaism is dying out in America due to the low number of jewish children produced each generation.
I believe that throughout jewish history, whenever certain jews have decided to dress the same way as the dominant population, go to the same schools, and live in the same communities, the result has been intermarriage and assimilation.
I would challenge anyone reading this blog to name a jewish community at any time over the past three thousand years that integrated with the dominant population and survived.
The older generation here in America thought that they could preserve jewishness, just a non orthodox type of jewishness. But this has obviously been a failure.
Interestingly, I believe the only nations in the world where jews are not intermarrying are the nations where there is strong anti semetism. For example, Argentina has strong anti semetism and the intermarriage rate is much lower than in neighboring Brazil where anti semetism is much more mild.
In some ways, the safest jewish community in the world is the Jewish community of Iran. 25,000 Jews live in Iran, and for obvious reasons the rate of intermarriage is *very* low! Of course this community is not safe from pogroms, but they are safe from intarmarriage.
Reform judaism and conservative judaism were founded with the highest of hopes but both have proven to be cul de sacs.
In sum, i personally find many aspects of orthodox judaism (the Agriprocessors situation for example) to conflict with my "modern" sensibilities. But i must say that it is intellectually dishonest for any conservative or reform jew to deny that what we have to say is irrelevant - it is virtually certain that within 150 years essentially the only jews left in America will be the orthodox.
Conservative judaism and reform judaism can both be classified as terminal diseases.
For those who don't know, Getzel Rubashkin a grandson of Agriprocessors' owner, a son of its VP, and a management employee of Agriprocessors himself. Getzel normally hastens to say he's not officially speaking for Agriprocessors. He forgot to do it this time. Getzel spends and inordinate amount of time every day "not officially" representing his company.
As for GAL Investments, would you care to discuss the police call the other day? The one where your family's friend, GAL's owner and Chabad hasid, Gabey Menahem tried to evict a tenant even though the tenant's rent was paid through the end of the month. The very generous Mr. Menahem wanted the space for a new tenant. The cops told Menahem to leave his current tenant in place.
This is the same Gabey Menahem who put new workers in filthy, unkept "dorm style" homes with leaking roofs, holes in the floor, and rubbish scattered around.
The WCF Courier has some pics of one of these homes:
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2008/06/29/news/regional/104267723.img
You can read all about it:
http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2008/06/29/news/regional/10426772.txt
You can even watch a video:
http://www.courierwebcasts.com/play.php?vid_id=1059&file=livingconditions.flv
(The clean, nice bookshelves are in the Courier office.)
>>>I really sense that this business will survive and this is a good thing. Mr. Rosenberg is intent on recycling a lot of old accusations, mudding the waters with a clear bit of malice. The critique is not in proportion to the real crimes that are in evidence.<<<
Read some new accusations, David:
http://www.forward.com/articles/13997/
Like most of the old "accusations," these are actually fact-based.
But don't let mere facts shatter your Orthodoxy-induced dream.
Regarding Shmarya's last comment concerning alleged silence– the most important voice relating to the questions surrounding Agriprocessors is consumer choice. With this scandal, I have decided to not purchase their meat and we buy Empire products and meat sold independently in our area from our kosher butcher. I have little doubt business has not be very good for Agriprocessors in the wake of the allegations and in the wake of the Federal investigations. They are in a position of needing to win back their customer base and since I am in business, if my sales are off 20%–this is not tolerable. Trader Joe's no longer carries Rubaskhin products in my area and this must be from the news of the scandal. I have anticipated going to them to ask to renew the association but I will not ask quite yet. Perhaps they have lost the Trader Joes account throughout the US and this hurts. This is not silence. This is the message they need and there is a community of interest. This is all fair and reasonable, our community supports good business and does not support bad business.
Regarding the substance of Shmarya's allegation that Agriprocessors is exploiting the workers–I oppose illegal immigration for the opposite reason which is the reason which is fully in evidence and that is that these workers exploit the US taxpayer. Postville very clearly supports Agriprocessors and the workers are very obviously there to take advantage of the employment opportunity. I have argued furiously with some of my frum friends about the problem of hiring these illegals and they throw the fact of illegal immigration around the neck of the nation. I will not honor the argument and it is my belief that any business I deal with must make a good faith effort to not employ illegals. And yet, I will buy at Wal-Mart so does this make me a hypocrite? Perhaps, I think the difference is that Wal-Mart is not a Jewish-owned business with a higher mandate from our Torah.
"Abuse" is a serious accusation and one that is not really in evidence. Anecdotes cannot rightly doom a company's whole reputation. Worker "discontent" is not an all-powerful truth that kills the credibility of a good company. When labor union workers line up to protest some business (like they did recently at a Safeway grocery store), I oftentimes side with the company. The logic that if some worker is complaining the company must be at fault makes no sense. A criteria that says we will buy Rubaskhin meat if the baseline salary is $12/hour but not if people make $9/hour makes no sense. A stand that says I will buy the meat if a union is in place and I will not buy the meat if there is no union in place is simply empty-headed.
I have no doubt that the commandments in Devarim cited above in Shmarya's complaint are fully respected by the Rubuskhin family owners. Because they are under such suspicion, this business cannot afford any more negative attacks against its image. It would help if it repaired its relation with the Church that does not like its treatment of workers. I have only a general set of requirements and better PR and better facts on the grounds will be useful.
That is what I am looking for and at some uncertain point, I will judge that enough has been done and resume with the purchasing of their products. I regret that I cannot cite specific criteria that are specific–if someone has some suggestions, please post them. A few more approving trips from Jewish groups visiting the site also has a positive impact.
I really sense that this business will survive and this is a good thing. Mr. Rosenberg is intent on recycling a lot of old accusations, mudding the waters with a clear bit of malice. The critique is not in proportion to the real crimes that are in evidence.
You don't like this kind of Jew? Fine. So, show us a different kind of Jew! You be it! BUT WHILE FOLLOWING THE TORAH RULES. It's TOO EASY to just scrap the rules, and be a nice ethical person, who is not doing any cultural heavy lifting. Or social heavy lifting either. Anybody who just works and dates is not doing much social heavy lifting. No permanent obligations. No kids. Anybody for whom Saturday is just a weekend day is not pulling his freight as a Jew, and can't pontificate about what Jews should do, or not do, such as be a light unto the nations. You haven't paid your dues. Shush. First be observant, then you can talk. It's WORK to be Torah observant.It's rewarding. It's not like a fraternity hazing. But, you haven't done the WORK. They HAVE. They can be criticized by anybody as business people, but they cannot be criticized as JEWS, except by other Jews, who have also done the HARD WORK of observance, and, the expenses that come with that, such as large families, and the support of large institutions, both for prayer and life-long study at every age level, which are cost centers. What are you floating? What pressures are on you? Whose tuitions are you paying?
Agriculture is not pretty in general!! Most of it is not even Jewish-owned, let alone Orthodox owned. You might consider that. If we had any idea of where our food, clothing, and electronic gizmos came from, well, we might not like it. And no, most of it is not Jewish owned.
The Orthodox community's reaction of support for Rubashkin has helped me get past my guilt over not always keeping kosher.
"these poor, often destitute people are charged a transportation fee of $75 dollars"
Evidently someone owes these people free transportation.
They can rent a bed from the staffing company for $100 per week in what is euphemistically called “campus-style” housing.
Shmarya conveniently forgets to mention that this is an arrangement made by a specific staffing agency for the workers they bring, less than %10 of the workforce. Notice how he makes it sound as if he is discussing the general arrangements.
Rent is automatically deducted from workers’ weekly paychecks
False. The option to pay in this way is available, should the employee need it. It is not automatic, it is opt-in.
Staffing companies do offer cash advances – $100 per week. But in at
least one case, those advances are tied to ATMs that charge $5 per
transaction. Lacking local bank accounts or a safe place to keep their
money, workers tend to make more frequent, smaller withdrawals rather
than one or two large ones.
Shmarya fabricates this calculation by making the argument that they lack bank accounts. There is nothing preventing them from opening bank accounts, and no reason for them to be losing money by making multiple withdrawals.
He also forgot to mention that GAL Investments has provided thousands of dollars in interest-free $100 loans to people who have been hit by rental deductions on their first paycheck. GAL is evidently only interested in money, and is trying to milk the workers as much as possible.
[On GAL rental arrangements: They require a] security deposit equivalent to one month’s rent and [..] their first month’s rent up front, as well.
False. They do not require money upfront – they will arrange for paycheck deductions if necessary.
just a yid – u meant tisha ba'av but good point
I know lots of Orthodox people who are nice. They may not all be up in arms about Rubashkin, but then not all my Reform and Masorti friends joined me for the rally for Darfur. Human beings are weak.
I also know lots of non-O who have children. Even young people. I know some who have 3 or 4 children. And thats in the USA, not Israel. Maybe not that as many as I would like, but like whats happened with O, selection is going to favor whatver they are doing right.
So much anger comes from generalizations. We just had Tu BShvat. Time to relect on sinat chinam?
If "there are plently of Orthodox Jews who feel shamed by the Rubashkin scandal" and by "much that goes on in the charedi world," where are your voices?
What you write may be true. But, until you and others stand up, use your real names and object to Agriprocessors, etc., it is like you do not exist.
Halakhicly, you must make a public protest. Otherwise, your silence is considered agreement.
A Different Anonymous, tell us more, because there could indeed be a place in the world for a strictly Torah-faithful group, which is more regular-folks.
There is room for everybody, haredi included.
The Torah / Talmud is eternal, and we have to cleave to it, while being quite ordinary people, as our ancestors did. This could address some issues such as high tuitions, and too-tight marriage standards. We need Shleppers Anonymous, Strict Torah- Faithful People in Machine-Washable Clothes. Or WNEPA, the Weird Non-Elite Parents' Association who like Jewish distance learning for their children and themselves. Used wedding gowns. People who are neither thin nor rich, but who love G-d, and eat normal food cooked at home in a crock pot or on a stove. People who have a steibel or steiblette in their home and the door is open.
There is nothing ethical about sterility.
You missed the mark here. There are plently of Orthodox Jews who feel shamed by the Rubashkin scandal. I am Torah observant Jew. Kashrut, Shabbat, and all goes with it. And I am not alone in being sickened by this scandal…and by much that goes on in the charedi world. Don't lump us all together.
woolsilkcotton- the only person breeding hate is u ,hopefully ur not breeding children(but if u are warn us first)
The word for an Orthodox man is, in the vernacular, "husband". It is a specialized term, once in general use. It's counterpart term, among the non-Orthodox, is "dude".
I am late-life born-again Orthodox, BT, and I don't hate anybody, or look down on, or manipulate anybody. In fact, I don't approve of inter-marriage, partly because I think your women -and men- are YOUR PROPERTY, and we shouldn't steal them. So there.
It's the unmentioned scandal of the age: Orthodox men are the only ones who marry young enough to marry an age-mate and have children, and it is because they are made to forcibly, by their culture. And, no, not all of them are angels, either. But with them, there is a sporting chance of an honorable, fertile marriage, with an age-mate.
These non-Orthodox guys are great party material, and fine, sweet friends of their conveniently liberated female friends – so cooperative, so well-trained not to whine about "commitment," but when they eventually put their arm around a white-gowned shoulder, it is not going to be yours.
Non-Orthodox marriage is dead. In fact, it's also dead from the female side too, because the young, non-Orthodox women won't look at the older guys, who want them. So, the guys get rejected, too. There is an inch of dust on the new-born ward in their hospitals.
The workers you mention aren't having a nice time but my serious bet is that they will have a lot more grandchildren than you will, and somehow that just matters.
Survival is the first test of ANY strategy. Last Mohican, don't give lessons. What makes you so smart? You can't even survive your own dear self.
It's amazing to see the hate, the backword medieval narrow-minded thinking, the ridiculous prejudices and stereotypes of old eastern Europe, all still alive and well with today's orthodox who write on these blogs. All gentiles are considered dumb, easy to manipulate, antisemitic, and ripe for the picking.
Enjoy your filthy Rubashkin meat.
If you pack it in and go Orthodox you can eat vegetarian, and you'll have to cook for two days on Friday, and not check your email on Saturday, but you'll have a LIFE. Being married is work, but BEING SINGLE is WORK, TOO.
In a free society – say, a non-Orthodox society – men marry later, well into their thirties, and marry women a good bit younger than themselves, and sometimes non-Jews, because – that way it's easier to be the Mr. Big-shot in the home. Jewish women who "wait" to "settle down" are kidding themselves. Their only hope is going Orthodox, to have a husband and a kid. Consider: non-Orthodox guys are not going along with your program. They don't want marriage at all until much later, and then they don't want YOU. You're nice, but you're too old to be pushed around. They want someone naive, who will look up to them in that respectful way that their age-mates don't.
Your future is empty chairs. You know that, you just don't think about it much, it's a taboo subject. Yet you dare to natter on about sausage making. Break the taboo if you're so radical and daring.
Maybe this isn't nice but I can't help balking at your reference to "children and grandchildren" – when you know perfectly well that none of your non-Orthodox readers, and probably including you too, DON'T and WON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE. The median age of non-Orthodox American Jews is FIFTY YEARS OF AGE. Only ONE household in four has a member who is under age 18.
It is an unpleasant reality that it is impossible to have grandchildren without first having children.
Back to the topic. Let's re-phrase: "Would your children and grandchildren, if by some lucky chance you ever had any, be kind, moral, and ethical people?"
If you like liberals, make one. Without going Orthodox. Not easy.
It is not a black or white situation. It is not an Orthodox versus non Orthodox issue. Agriprocessors needs to reform its work practices and the Non Orthodox need to stop being haters of Orthodox.
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