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American Jewish Committee: First Half of 20th Century Was So Long Ago, Who Knows Whether Genocides Took Place?
By Joey Kurtzman / February 22, 2008
I've been sent a recording and transcript of a public exchange that took place yesterday between Barry Jacobs of the American Jewish Committee and Aram
Hamparian of the Armenian National Committee. It happened at a Washington, DC lecture on Israeli-Turkish relations. Hamparian takes Jacobs and the AJC to task for its participation in the world's most successful campaign of genocide denial, i.e. Turkey's campaign to deny the systematic murder of over a million Armenians during World War I. (For those tuning in late, The Armenian Genocide was the prototypical genocide in that it compelled Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish lawyer who coined the term "genocide," to seek ways to criminalize the mass-slaughter of whole communities. The AJC has abetted its denial by actively supporting Turkish efforts to prevent recognition of the genocide.) Jacobs responds by suggesting that the AJC can't hope to say whether the genocide took place, because, jeez, World War I was so long ago! Then he swiftly non sequiturs to the very different argument that it's bad to acknowledge past genocides unless it makes good geopolitical sense. And then he adds that that's not just the position of the AJC, but also the position of "the Jewish community." Well, all I can say is that whoever Barry Jacobs is talking about when he refers to "the Jewish community," their positions are morally bankrupt and a public disgrace to American Jews. Transcript below.
Aram Hamparian, Executive Director of the Armenian National Committee of America: Your efforts to score points in Ankara at the expense of the Armenian Genocide issue is a transparent transaction that, I think, squanders the moral capital of the Jewish community, undermines our collective efforts to fight Holocaust denial, and, if the ADL [Anti-Defamation League] experience of the last few months is any indication, is very far outside of the mainstream of your own community, and it's just so painful to come and hear you echo those same themes again. I just had to share that with you. Barry Jacobs, Director of Strategic Studies of the American Jewish Committee: It's not about the position of the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish community. It's not about, we are not historians, which is a polite, bullshit way of saying we're not going to take responsibility, we are not going to make a decision on 1915. But the relationship between United States and Turkey, if we want to, I don't know where you are, whether you are right or left, if you're left in the United States and want to get out of Iraq, well, look you at the map, Brits have pulled out of Basra, there are only two ways to get out of Iraq, you have to go south, you have to go north, and if you go north you got to go through Turkey. So the argument that finally persuaded Congress, and I know this is not – I'm looking for a strong enough word – [unintelligible] but, the message was that the bilateral relationship between the United States and Turkey will suffer greatly if this resolution is passed. The Jewish Community believed that also, and that's been our position. And the world is not made up of choices between good and bad, at least not in the Foreign Service when I was in it, it's made up between choices between bad and worse. So we take practical positions, and the position of all the Jewish organizations, including ADL, was not have a position on the facts of what happened, or not taking a public position on what happened in 1915, we did not think, do not think, that the United States Congress is the place to settle this. And that's all I can tell you. And that's the real world and that's the position of United States Government and of the Government of Israel.
UPDATE:
In a comment below, Pilisopa says "The AJC's and ADL's behavior is a reflection of what their membership will tolerate."
Unfortunately, that's the truth. All this will continue until enough members and donors call up these orgs and say, "Please don't waste your time calling me, or mailing me anything, or requesting my donations or support, until you've made the decision to stop supporting this campaign of genocide denial."
For that to happen, we need more people in the Jewish community to understand very clearly what's going on here. I sincerely hope and believe that the March 6 event at UCLA can help make this happen. But we'll see. — Joey
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Clearly, this snake venom-infused "news"paper has no limits and no boundaries. The writers that are carefully selected by Mr. Tobin are showing examples of excellency in demagogy and brain-washing. Not to go too far, let us take a look at the recent most "scientifically-sound" and "logical" opus by allegedly most respected Rabbi David Gutterman. What does he write about genocide? Here is a quote which leaves me absolutely speechless (http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/15536/): "This Shabbat, we conclude
the Torah reading with a reminder about our history's first intended
author of our genocide. His name was Amalek. Amalek was a person, a
nation and a concept. He is the architect and archetype par excellence
of anti-Semitism." [see my specific emphasis in the quote].
Now, one does not have to graduate from the Yeshiva or from the Seminary to know that according to Sam.15:2-3, the message from the God was: "I have decided to
settle accounts with the nation of Amalek for opposing Israel when they came
from Egypt. Now go and completely destroy the entire Amalekite nation–men, women, children, babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys."
Okay, now, replace the source of the message with another name – say, Talat Pasha, and the name of the nation of Amalek with Armenians, oh – and not to forget to replace Israelites with the Turks – and what do we get? What a surprise!
Now, back to this demagogical Rabbi. What kind of Antisemitism and what kind of genocide he is talking about?! These people from the Jewish Exponent truly believe that they are the smartest and the rest of the world's population are just a brainwashed cattle?!
The commenter Micromike123 has 2 great links above. I took the liberty of making them clickable.
1.http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14382/
2.http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14345/
I don't know how you, people, feel about it but I am certainly loosing my faith in everything Jewish… . I look at these people I think I know – and I am not sure anymore if I really know them… They smile, make eye contact, look friendly, but – are they really friendly? What is their truth? Are they friendly for only as long as their national interests are not jeopardized? If to choose between The Truth and the Jewish interests – what will they choose? I ask this question and the longer I study the topic, the less confident I am about these people I think I know… I am writing it with a great sorrow and sadness is overwhelming my heart… Few days ago I wrote about this heartless bastard , editor of this example of excellence in the world of yellow press, The Jewish Exponent. Here is yet another example of the outrageousness of this dirty "newspaper". An editorial article entitled "Turkey's blame game" was published on October 25, 2007: http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14382/
The shameless words from this article speak for themselves:
"Unfortunately,
organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League have found themselves
in the crossfire on this issue. And though most of organized Jewry
still opposes the congressional resolution…"
Unfortunately – for whom?! And – is that true that the "most of organized Jewry" opposes recognition of Genocide?! And – how are they organized? Perhaps, something similar to the SS-brigades?!
Now, we go to yet another article in the same ugly "news"paper – this one was published on October 25, 2007: http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14345/
This one was delivered by the shameless, ruthless and heartless person – Yigal Schleifer. I do want to see this person, look into his eyes after he reads about all the horrors of the Genocide. Or – better – what if all of his family will be killed by the Turks and he will be the only survivor of 40 or 50 Schleifers: very old Schleifers, middle-age and full of life Schleifers, and the very young Schleifers, and the Schleifers that are not born yet but killed with their mothers – when their bodies were slushed by the Turkish yataghans.. what if this Yigal Schleifer SAW IT ALL – I wonder, will he be still saying that there was no Genocide?
Here it comes:
"Yet despite the vote, U.S. Jewish groups said that they lobbied against the bill — just as they have done in the past. …. Turkish-Jewish leaders published a full-page ad in the Washington Times
on the day of the vote voicing their opposition to the bill.
Historically, Jews both in Turkey and the United States have been
strong opponents of a congressional resolution on Armenian genocide.
Jews consider their support for Turkey's positions on the bill and
other issues on Capitol Hill key to maintaining strong ties between
Turkey and Israel."
Well, believe it or not, but the above is an excellent example of a so-called "Jewish truth" which is worshiped by Mr Tobin and his yellow-colored "news"paper.
And, by the way, Mr. Tobin, since I sent you both personal e-mail and a letter to the editor – somehow I cannot find your article on-line anymore – I wonder where is it gone? Did you hide it under your pillow? But – not to worry, you took a good care of disseminating your diseased article , with variations, on other web sites – and I was lucky enough to save one – just for my own collection of examples of people who exemplify the excellence in lying. Mr Tobin, you are a very, very bad person, and if you are not ashamed of it – hopefully, there are many people in the world who have no respect for you and people like you. Your "Kosher truth" is the ugliest thing one can only imagine.
>Narrated by Eitan Belkind, member of the NILI
>Published by the Ministry of Defense of Israel , 1979, pages 77-78,
>115-116, 118-120, 124, 127
Eitan Belkind (1887-1979) was born in Rishon LeZion and graduated from
Turkish military high school. During WWI he participated in a team fighting locust invasions.
Together with a few other outraged witnesses of the Armenian massacres, he founded NILI,
an organization, which collaborated with the British against the Turks.
The majority of the Jews in Israel, the Old Yishuv and the newcomers
alike, kept their non-Turkish passports in order to be protected by the
Capitulations of the Ottoman Empire . The Capitulations were privileges
granted to European citizens resident in Turkey in exchange for
assistance given by the European nations to the disintegrating Empire.
During the war the Turkish military powers could not agree with the
fact, that dozens of thousands people from hostile countries having
foreign citizenship lived in Israel (the newcomers were mainly from the
Russian Empire fighting against the Turks). The Turks demanded that the
Jews either acquire the Ottoman citizenship or leave Israel . Bilium
(the first settlers in Palestine coming from Russia ) and other
founders of the first Aliyah led by Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, made a public
appeal to the Jews, encouraging them to adopt Ottoman citizenship.
However, very few people responded, as most Jews were afraid that once
they would get Turkish passports, they would be drafted to the Turkish
Army, something the Jews greatly feared. Many Jews preferred to be
exiled from Israel to serve in the Turkish Army.
On Friday in late March 1915, about 10000 Jewish were exiled from
Israel . They were taken to Jaffa and forced to board ships belonging
to neutral states such as Italy , USA , etc. The deportation was
carried out with great cruelty. The deportees left all their property
behind, women and children were hurled into the ships. It was a tragic
and oppressing sight.
Avshalam Feinberg, who witnessed the deportations, went to Jerusalem to
the Anti-Locust Department, and encouraged Aharon Aharonson to start an
uprising; because the Jewish settlements were on the brink of
annihilation. Avshalom insisted that, in his opinion, that it had been
the Germans that advised Turkey to deport the Jews.
….We must help the English and the French to win the war, -said
Avshalom, – otherwise if the Germans win, God forbid, our country will
become a German colony as part of Germanys slogan <italic>Drang nach
Osten plan.</italic> Germany has no settlements, with a population of
over 85 million; it is looking for new lands. Israel is one of its
targets the Germans had already started to populate it, masquerading as
the Knights Templar.
<bold>THE EXTERMINATION OF THE ARMENIANS
</bold>… On the second day of our journey, we saw a corpse flowing in
the Euphrates . We were surprised but the soldier accompanying us
reassured us that this was a body of an Armenian. We found out that
there was a camp nearby, on the other side of the Euphrates where
Armenians deported from Armenia were being held. Our friend Shirinyan
turned white and asked us to cross the Euphrates and go to the Armenian
camp.
We found several hundred people in the camp living in small handmade
huts. The territory was clean; the huts were built on one line. We
passed by huts and looked inside. We saw women and children. In one of
the huts, Shirinyan found one of his aunts, who told that all men had
been killed; only women and children remained.
Shirinyan had no idea what had happened to his nation. Shocked, he
began to cry on his aunts shoulder, but Jacob Baker and I tried to
cheer him up and said that we still had our duty to do. We went on; the
further we traveled the more floating corpses of Armenians we saw.
After six days, we reached Der-el-Zor, an important city of the region.
We paid a visit to the military Commandant of the city, the Circassian
Colonel Ahmab Bey. We presented our papers and explained the purpose of
our journey. My friend Jacob Baker was given an accommodation, but I
and my friend Shirinyan were arrested. Later Jacob Baker visited us and
said that we were detained for being Armenians. It turned out the
Commandant believed I was also Armenian my first name Eitan, was
written in Turkish <italic>[which then used Arabic characters
Translators note]</italic> with the sound i was presented by two dots
subscript, the character t was written with two dots superscript, so
the Commander read my name as Etian, which sounded perfectly Armenian.
No matter how much I tried to explain things to the Commandant,- said
Baker,-I could not persuade him. I have sent a telegram to the chief in
Damascus . I was kept in custody for two days until a telegram with
order to release me. I do not know what happened to our friend
Shirinyan. Der-el-Zor, was a military centre, so it had a military
hospital lead by a Jewish doctor Bhor (?) and a Jewish pharmacist
called Arto. <bold>There we found out that Ahmad Bey, was the commander
of Circassian troops mobilized for exterminating the Jews.</bold> The
doctor and the pharmacist invited us to their roomy house, told us that
all Armenian men had been killed on the way from their homes in
Anatolia , and beautiful women and girls were left to the mercy of
Bedouins.
As soon as we found horses to ride and soldiers to accompany us, Jacob
Baker went on his way to Mosul , I set out to my region, along the
river Kibur (?). At night before departure we heard terrible,
heart-rending female screams. The Armenian camp was one kilometer away
from our house. The screaming continued all night. We asked what was
happening, they told us that children were being taken from their
mothers to live in dormitories and continue their education. However in
the morning when we set off and crossed the bridge across Euphrates ,
<bold>I was shocked to see the river red with blood and beheaded
corpses of children floating on the water. The scene was horrible, as
there was nothing we could do.
</bold>After three days riding, I reached Aram- Naharaim where I
witnessed a terrible tragedy. There were two camps next to each other,
one Armenian and one Circassian. The Circassians were busy with
exterminating the Armenians. There were also Arab sheikhs, who selected
beautiful Armenian girls as their wives. Two women approached me and
gave their photos to me. Should I ever get to Aleppo and find their
families (whether their families were alive, was a question), the women
asked me to send their greetings to whomever I find there.
The Circassian officer seeing me talk to the two Armenian women ordered
me to leave but I stayed to see what would happen to the Armenians. The
Circassian soldiers ordered the Armenians to gather dry grass and pile
it into a tall pyramid, then they tied up all the Armenians who were
there, almost 5000 souls, their hands tied together and put them in a
circle around the pile of grass and set it afire in a blaze, which rose
up to the heaven together with the screams of the wretched people, who
were being burned to death. I fled from the place I could not stand
this horrifying sight. I rode as fast as I could, wishing to get as far
from the place as possible. After two hours of crazy gallop I could
still hear creams of the poor victims until they died out. In two days
I returned to that place and saw the burned bodies of thousands
people.
I approached the <italic>Sandjer</italic> Mountains where Yezidim
lived. At the foot of the mountain, on my way to the city Urfa in the
north, I witnessed several mass-exterminations of the Armenians. People
were wretched, desperate to madness. In one of the houses I saw an
Armenian woman cooking her own childs body in a pot. All the roads were
strewn with the corpses of murdered Armenians.
<bold>A JEWISH WOMAN IN A SHEIKHS TENT
</bold>…I went to the sheikhs tent and was very happy to find my
friend Jacob Baker.
At midnight after the meal was over, the sheikh went to his tent and we
stayed back. There was a little boy watching over the fire. Jacob Baker
and I spoke French. I told him about thee things that happened to me in
Urfa and about Armenian pogroms that I saw on my way and he told me
about his work in Mosul . We sat talking late in the night, when
suddenly the child whom we mistook for a Bedouin told us in French that
he and his mother are Armenians and the chief of the tribe had saved
them from extermination. His mother became the sheikhs wife and he
helped welcoming guests. The child went on and told us that the chief
of the other tribe had a Jewish wife taken from the family of the city
Caesarea in Anatolia . Her husband had been killed and the sheikh took
her.
We were shocked upon hearing this and asked the boy whether we could
meet the woman. In spite of the danger the child got into the tent
where the Jewess was. Everyone in the tent was asleep and the woman
managed to get unnoticed. She was 25 and very beautiful. She told us
her surname was Biram, a typical Turkish name. Her family lived in the
Armenian quarter of the city and when they were taking the Armenians,
they also took this woman with her husband and child despite all their
protests. Her husband and child had been killed but she was rescued by
the Arab sheikh who took her as his wife. We promised to take care of
her.
….Two weeks later I turned towards the Euphrates and hurried back to
Der-el-Zor. In the post I found a letter from Haim Khanum in
Constantinople (the main city of Turkey), who asked me not to interfere
in the case of Mrs. Biram, as she had connections with the killings of
the Armenians that was a military secret. Besides I sent a letter to my
niece Tsilya, who was a student in Berlin , in answer to my letter sent
by German military mail, where I described everything that had happened
to the Armenians. I got my letter back with a request never to write to
her about such things again, to beware of the German military mail,
because my letters might get opened by censors.
In Der-el-Zor I stayed with the pharmacist Arto, who now had five
Armenian wives whom he married so as to save their lives. He told me
that about 30 Armenian women were working in the military hospital this
had been Doctor Bhors way of rescuing them.
I must mention that all the time I was in Aram Naharaim, I was unable
to eat the splendid fish from the Euphrates , which I liked very much,
remembering that those fishes had fed off the corpses of murdered
Armenians, including young children. I was also unable to have sexual
relationship with the Armenian girls who were offered me by Doctor Bhor
and pharmacist Arto.
While still in Damascus … I gave my records about the Armenian
massacres to Josef Lishansky.
When we returned testing station I stayed with Sara. She told me that
my records of Armenian massacres, which she had sent to Egypt
<italic>[to the British-J.S. ],</italic> had made a great impression.
<bold>…In my trips in the south of Syria and Iraq I saw with my own
eyes the extermination of the Armenian nation, I watched the atrocious
murders, and saw childrens heads cut off and watched the burning of
innocent people whose only wrongdoing was to be Armenian. I also
suffered horrible torments in prison; and my dear brother Neiman and
his friend Josef were killed. And yet despite all this, I will not feel
true to myself unless I write down what I carry in my heart.</bold> I
pitied the Turks, who fell so mean at the end of their power in the
East because of collaborating with the Germans. On the advice of the
Germans the Turks perpetrated brutal massacres of the Armenians with
the hands of the Circassian Muslims fanatics.
If to paraphrase what Volodya Ulianov-Lenin said, to better understand his enemy, one has to read the enemy's newspaper – and this is exactly what I did recently while digging through the bad-odor and bad-taste old issues of The Jewish Exponent since these issues are still available on-line: http://www.jewishexponent.com/
My fishing expedition resulted in finding yet another bad-odor article on Armenian Genocide. I honestly tried to understand the author's objective – and I failed. Then I decided to write a letter to this author (one of the Jewish Exponent's editors) – you can guess if I received any answer.
To make it short, here is my letter:
====================================================
TO: jtobin@jewishexponent.com
SUBJECT: Genocide: there is only one truth
Dear Mr. Tobin,
There is a year passed since your controversially-sound article entitled
"Choosing allies over principles" was published in the not always
freshly-smelled Jewish Exponent (April
26, 2007).
I have read your article several times – and yet I could not comprehend the
message you were trying to deliver since the article crescendoed with so many
questions that may sound controversial yet obvious for the honest people.
Allow me, please, to elaborate on several positions of your paper.
1. Quote: "Given the current
state of the Middle East …. is this really the best
moment for us to be pressing the Turks about their past?"
Question: Is this article written by a Jew or by the honest person who simply
cares about the truth and humanity? I deliberately oppose one to another since
you clearly emphasize "us" in the above quote.
2. Quote: "Moralists
may be right to pose this question as one of absolutes, but in wartime, you
can't always pick and choose your allies."
Question: Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say not "moralist" but
the honest people who care for humanity? What meaning are you putting in the
word "you" here – perhaps, Jews?
3. Quote: "Would it be
worth it to damage an alliance with Turkey
just to make a point about the truth of Armenian suffering? That might makes us
feel righteous, but if it leads to more deaths in the future, would it be
right?"
Question: Who are "we" in the above mentioned quote? Is that the Jews
or the honest people who care for humanity? Once again, it looks like
"we" are not these honest people, no matter how to look at this
situation since there is only one truth, and it is never gray – it is always
black-and-white. Also, one can clearly read in quotes # 2 and 3 that der Zweck heiligt die Mittel – or,
perhaps, you would rather prefer it in Latin: finis sanctiflcat media.
4. Quote: "Will an Armenian
genocide resolution help us defend Israel
against the threat of, say, an Iranian attempt at nuclear genocide better than
a friendly Turkey?"
Question: once again, who are these mysterious "us"? I presume you
are an American Jew. Are you talking about you, Americans or you, Israelites -
because these "us" are certainly not the people one can trust since
these are the people who will stub a knife in a back of a neighbor for the sake
of their national interests – this is exactly how these "us" sound.
You are undoubtedly a very gifted journalist. Your article is full of a snake's
venom: it looks as if it is asking some crucial questions, yet the way these
questions are shaped, suggests the answer – the only answer that suits these
"we" and "us" but not the honest people who care for
humanity, and certainly not those whose families were slaughtered by the
Turkish military machine.
In the beginning of my letter, I mentioned that the Jewish Exponent is a
newspaper that does not always smell fresh. Your supposedly "open
question" article was echoed by yet another one of a similar taste,
published on August 30, 2007
(Ghosts of Armenia haunt ethnic relationship).
Finally, the medical professor of the University of Michigan,
Ariel (aka Lev) Barkan wrote a letter which was grabbed with joy by the editors
of the Jewish Exponent and published immediately. This letter was entitled "Armenian Tale of Turkish Genocide Simply Untrue"
:
http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/13003
I have no intention to go through all exquisitely-cynical passages of this
chauvinistic doctor of medicine who suddenly identified himself as the
most knowledgeable and trusted scholar of history. To put it short,
according to this medical historian, there was no Genocide – at all, end of
story! Armenians are all evil outlaws who were lawfully killed by the Turks
when it was necessary!
This medical historian has no shame. People who question honesty and
historical truth have no shame. These people have no heart. Perhaps, if to
follow all these barkans, we should say that there was no Holocaust
and the Nazi regime was simply conducting "ethnic cleansing" -
whenever it was necessary?
Poor thing Mel Gibson was punished severely for opening his
drunk mouth and allegedly saying something that did not please the Jewish ear.
Medical professor Barkan thought it through, wrote and sent to the Jewish
newspaper – and his horrifying letter was published – no consequences! Is that
because he is one of these "us"?
If to continue, perhaps the execution of the orchestrators of the Munich manslaughter was an act of heroism, and the
extermination of those who were in charge of the Armenian Genocide was simply
an act of unjust terror?
You see, how one can easily twist the truth… .
Mr. Tobin, there is no such thing as a "Jewish truth". There is only
one truth. The rest are just dirty political games where anything goes and the
winner is never punished.
As for the medical historian chauvinist Barkan and all these "us" -
do visit the petition site:
http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/13003
and read the comments from the people whose families suffered from the
Genocide. If these letters will put no tear on your eye – you are one of these
"us".
Sincerely,
Michael
Princeton, NJ
P.S. May 19 is the day when the Genocide of Greeks slaughtered by the Turkish
regime is always commemorated. I guess Greece is not on the Jewish agenda – otherwise we would
certainly see more articles telling us about these Greeks being just outlaws
who were exterminated by the government to protect justice… .
P.P.S. I wrote several times to the Jewish Exponent, demanding to remove this outrageous
letter by Barkan – you can guess what kind or response I received.
Por el reconocimiento del Genocidio perpetrado por los Turcos Otomanos.- Apostemos a los DERECHOS HUMANOS.- PARA QUE NUNCA MAS SUCEDA.-
APOYEMOS EL " RECONOCIMIENTO " DEL GENOCIDIO ARMENIO PERPETRADO POR LOS TURCOS OTOMANOS PARA QUE NUNCA MAS VUELVA A SUCEDER UN ACTO CRIMINAL DE TAL BARBARIE HUMANA.- DEFENDAMOS EN LOS FUEROS INTERNACIONALES LOS DERECHOS HUMANOS Y BREGEMOS PARA QUE PAREN LAS AGRESIONES A LA NATURALEZA DEL PLANETA PARA UNA MEJOR CALIDAD DE VIDA PARA " TODOS LOS HABITANTES ".- Miguel Angel Nalpatian.- Mar del Plata.- Buenos Aires.- Rca Argentina.-
Commentary: Preventing future genocides
By Howard L. Jaffe and Laura Boghosian
Mon Mar 31, 2008, 05:53 PM EDT
Howard L. Jaffe is rabbi at Temple Isaiah. Laura Boghosian is a resident of Russell Road.
Yes, blaming all Jews for anything/everything is totally wrong, but yes, you can blame some if they were involved. So, what's the problem? Guilt is guilt. If a puppet commits a crime, do you blame the puppet or the puppeteer, the person pulling the strings from behind the curtain? Denying any proven genocide is also wrong. Defending and siding with the denialists is heinously wrong, as that also denies all genocides and conveniently hides the perpetrators, along with the truth. And, to think that there was absolutely no Jewish involvement in the Armenian genocide is just plain ridiculous. Stop being so defensive and face reality. There have been some evil Jews in the world, so what? Just like everyone else. Pinpointing exactly who concocted the Armenian genocide is neither anti-Jewish nor anti-Semitic…if they were involved, they were involved. Get over it. But don't attack those who reveal these truths, even if they may be embarrassing or uncomfortable. It is counterproductive to an honest assessment of history.
Hello everyone, get a GRIP!
Making note of the fact that the planners and masterminds of the Armenian genocide were not, in fact, Turkish – meaning ethnic Turks, but were in fact, converted or crypto-Jews, does not in any way blame all Jews for the genocide. Not in the least. Are all American Jews responsible for the Iraq war because most of the neocons are Jewish? I don't think so. Not at all. Are all Italians guilty because of the mafia? Or, all Irish because old man Kennedy was a rum runner during Prohibition? Not at all. But, ignoring the facts just makes it much more difficult to discuss anything, and in this case, sadly pits Turks against Armenians. The saddest reality is that the Ottoman Empire was hijacked by the Salonika crowd, whether you like it or not. History is history. In the end, most Turkish Armenians were gone or dead or refugees in their own homeland, after having a continuous 4000 + year history in that land. I don't advocate blaming anyone who was not involved, but please don't defend the perpetrators – no matter what they were….because that's exactly what Turkey, Israel and the US are doing. And most Armenians must ask, how and why is this happening??? The Knesset recently agreed to discuss the Armenian genocide, a decision everyone should applaud. Let's hope they're not afraid of the facts, either.
At this late hour (11 PM) all kind of unusual ideas are coming to my mind. Here is one of them: why not to establish the Hole of Shame? The placement in this hole will be based on the people's achievements in denial of any political mass-murders – such as the Armenian Genocide. The higher person's position and the more s/he is decorated, the deeper will his/her position be in this hole. I humbly suggest three candidates:
1. Barry Jacobs, AJC's director, twice decorated by the U.S. Information Agency, decorated by the governments of Venezuela and El Salvador, "Outstanding Achievement" award by the Governor of Michigan.
2. Professor Justin McCarthy, Honorary Doctor of the Suleyman Demirel University, Order of Merit of Turkey. The best of the best in the flock of the Genocide denialists.
3. Ariel Barkan, M.D., Professor of the Michigan University, the Prophet of Genocide denial, Member of the Editorial Board, CMR – Cerrahpasa Medical Review, Istanbul, Turkey.
Any additions? Let us put them into the Hole of Shame.
Mr. Kurtzman wrote this article to wake us up and realize what is going on in this world. To make us aware. Awareness and American Democracy does not cause Anti-Semitism!
When you deny any genocide… and in this topic it is the Armenian Genocide, then you are denying every genocide. You can't pick and choose b/c of convenience issues.
Bringing up current issues of a nation does that give anyone an excuse to wipe them off the world. Like I've stated before, you are an idiot to think that Holocaust is justified because of current issues with Palestine and Israel. Hence you are an idiot to think that Armenian Genocide was justified and who cares about them, because of current political issues in Armenia.
It is interesting how those who choose to deny, attack issues that are so unrelated to the Armenian Genocide! Interesting tacktic! Is this what they teach you in Turkey, learn only how to deny the Armenian Genociede.
Some of the opponents here and in other forums never stop surprising me by their naivety – both sincere (natural) and pretentious (evilly mastered). Only the brainless or brainwashed people will blame Jews or Turks for the Armenian Genocide. Here is (once again) my favorite quote: guns don't kill people – people do. And – here is my take on the above mentioned quote: people don't kill people – politicians do. It is pretty much the same as to blame all Germans for Holocaust. Once again, I urge all of us here to stay alert: this discussion as well as any other on the Genocide-related issues is well-infiltrated by the professionals who are trained to destroy normal and productive discussions. Please don't think of me as a conspiracy freak – I have seen many examples of such things happened in the past when the person who pretended to be an Armenian from Armenia was actually sending his most provocative messages from the computer that was geographically located in Turkey. We must stay strong and we must stay united. Yesterday, I was watching the Genocide-related fragments on the U-Tube. I don't remember exactly who said it but these words really caught my attention: many of the modern days Turks do not want to acknowledge Genocide – simply because they are ashamed of the deeds of their ancestors. I clearly see a possibility for such thing. And – another thing that also reached my heart from the same excursus to the U-Tube: the need to recognize the Armenian Genocide is not in the necessity to find whom to blame but to learn the lesson and to say – together: we will never let it happen again!
Again, blaming for the Jews for the Armenian genocide is absolutely ridiculous.
If you are watching the events in Armenia today, you will find out the reason, we have made an ally of Turkey and not Armenia. For many years, Armenia was behind the iron curtain, an ally of our enemy, Russia. Armenia did not accept the existence of the State of Israel, and Turkey did. The present govt. in Armenia is totalitarian, not a democracy. They gave Ahmadinejad a university degree, while we were boycotting him. Israel is buying water from Turkey. They need water to drink. They celebrate the Armenian genocide in Israel on that day.
The genocide bill has been used by the communists in the past to drive a wedge between Turkey and the USA. Divided they fall.
As a relative of a genocide survivor, our family has already reconciled with the Turks. We know the present generation did not commit the crimes as the present Germans did not commit the holocaust. Armenians can reconcile and open the borders for trade with Turkey. They do not need to ask for reparations.
Why blame the Jews for the Armenian genocide? Because it is antisemitism to blame the Jews for all your problems. As a Jew related to an Armenian family, I find it really hurts when you extend a had to help the Armenians and then get blamed by certain factions for the genocide. I can guarantee you I have read the baseless pice of propaganda that blames the Jews and it is so full of lies about the Jews including the Protocols of Zion, which Russia has already reputed. By the way, they do not even call Putin an antisemite today. Only a gangster with whom you cannot agree; opposition will be extinguished. So what is the purpose of blaming the Jews. I see one motive, mentioned in the propaganda: to unite Turkey, Russia and Iran in one world superpower. By blaming the Jews, you think you have found a way to reconcile Turkey and Armenia; well, that is maybe, if you can fool all the people all the time. We have to assume all the Armenians are fools. Do not forget, the Turks were allies of Germany, and the Germans and their Nazi (aryan) descendants were responsible for the genocides. The Nazis influenced the arab world and are the cause of most of the antisemitism found there today. Germany, Turks were the reason for the defeat for what might have been a liberal Russia also. Today we have left the remainders of peoples after years of wars and destruction. The Jew blamers I take it want more years of war and destruction. I still think their number one enemy is the USA, the home of freedom and democracy. After all, these antisemites are anti-democrats. They would love to destroy freedom and democracy and those who believe in it.
Perhaps the reasons for their (and Israel's) undying support of the Turkish position is because the masterminds behind the Armenian genocide and the denialists, can all be connected, if you have the balls to pull the dots together. That is the dirty little secret of the Armenian genocide and this bizarre relationship that very few want to touch….it is the 'third rail' of the Armenian genocide. Let's explore who the CUP founders were along with their origins in Spain. Let's examine who inherited or otherwise assumed control of Armenian properties and businesses after they were explunged. Let's have an honest discussion of how an indigenous people of Turkey, the Armenians, were turned into internal enemies by a bunch of nationalist masterminds who were not even ethnically Turkish. This is the explanation, whether you like it or not. Truth can be very uncomfortable, but until one is willing to confront it and expose it, people will still wonder how and why Israel has teamed up the 20th century's premier denialists….the truth is that there is no mystery at all, it's because they are and have always been part of the same team. Ataturk reciting prayers in Hebrew at the wailing wall is just the tip of a huge iceberg. No – he was not part of planning the genocide, not one bit, but any of the CUP founders could have done the exact same thing. Uncomfortable to contemplate, yes, but it provides fertile food for thought, folks. Only when Israel, the ADL, the AJC and others stand up and denounce, wholeheartedly and in no uncertain terms, those who planned the genocide, their denial will be seen as support. Sorry, but that's how it works. If I were to voice endless support for Hitler and his supporters, what message would that send? I think we all know the answer. Forget geopolitical realities of today's world…that's bullshit and a false distraction…there are deeper things going on with the Armenian genocide that are preventing an honest expose. Once everyone can overcome their ethnocentric fears, the truths about the plan to eliminate the Turkish Armenians can come to light and overcome the sleazy darkness that's clouding everyone's vision of history.
"Collective Insanity"… to the point!
Every capable nation, has an organization that fights for their rights. ADL and AJC are there for the Jewish rights and also for human rights. From my understanding, there are also many non-Jewish individuals who are part of ADL. They claim to represent the enitire Jewish and non Jewish population. And they chose to deny the Armenian Genocide, and said that you too!
I was pleased to find out, that there are many who don't agree w/ ADL & AJC's final decision of denying the Armenian Genocide. And hence it becomes our decision to step up and inject our voice into ADL and AJC, they claim that they represent me BUT in reality they don't and I want them to know that. And living in a democratic world, I have the right to voice my position freely.
ADL AND AJC DOES NOT REPRESENT MY POINT OF VIEW. I ACCEPT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!
Exercise your right and let ADL and AJC know that they DO NOT represent you!
With Much Respect,
Peace Love Unity
How is it that ostensibly intelligent people can insist on perpetuating the lies created by the Turkish government post-1915, by saying there were no orders to eliminate the Armenians of Anatolia? Who's kool aid are you drinking, folks? Well, guess what…there were no direct orders to begin the Holocaust, either….yet more than 6 million people died or were otherwise eliminated by the Nazi regime. Facts are facts, folks. Face up to it. Yes, the Ottoman Empire murdered or otherwise eliminated 25% of its native population. Fact: Armenians constituted 25% of the population of Anatolia in 1914, but less than 3% after 1922. There are no opinions when it comes to clear, historical facts. Gravity is a fact…not an opinion. So, let's face facts. Fact: the Turkish Armenians did not commit mass suicide or decide to move en masse to the Syrian desert. Fact: there were revolutionary organizations who opposed Turkish govt oppression as an act of self-defense. Fact: the overwhelming majority of Armenians at the time had nothing to do with them or with the Russians, yet all were blamed for the disasters of Turkish involvement in WWI. Fact: The Ottoman government declared war on its own citizens, as well as foreign nations. Fact: after 900 years, the Turkish Armenians were a minority group within the Ottoman Empire, not a foreign country to be conquered and eliminated. Fact: the Committee of Union and Progress hijacked the Ottoman Empire, the Sultan and the army and declared war on the Armenians. Fact: Modern Turkish people are not responsible for the actions of the CUP and not to blame, but can distance themselves from and repudiate their evil actions. Fact: Most Turks want to do this – they know the truth – but their govt and military are standing in the way. Time for a change….a huge change, people…and that includes getting rid of ALL insensitive racial or ethnic comments. They are demeaning and say more about the writer than anything else, so please refrain – please….and stick to the facts.
Thanks to Peace Love Unity, we are now aware of the most honorable goals of two lovers, ADL and AJC. What can I say? I think these two are staying right on target:
1. They do combat Antisemitism – and I mean – they DO combat it: poor guy Mel Gibson carelessly opened his mouth and – look how severely he was punished, but – they are so damn soft on their own, Jewish nationalism: anyone can and, in fact must deny Genocide – and no punishment is to follow, in fact, this person will be applauded to as a hero. I just wrote it and – I didn't like the way it sounded. Somehow I feel very uncomfortable calling these nasty modern ADL/AJC people Jewish. I have so many nice Jewish friends and they are absolutely not like these ugly people!
2. They do support Israel – at any cost: "Finis sanctificat media" – but, wait.. wasn't that the motto of the Jesuits?… hmmm…
3. They do promote pluralism: anyone can fearlessly deny Genocide, although – don't touch Holocaust!
4. Energy independence? How is that linked to other goals? Who knows…
5. Strengthening Jewish life – through the union with the most democratic Turkish government – I am just being sarcastic…
Dear Anon,
Below I copy & pasted what was said on the AJC website
http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.789093/k.124/Who_We_Are.htm
Regards,
PLU
The American Jewish Committee, established in 1906 by
a small group of American Jews deeply concerned about pogroms aimed at
Russian Jews, determined that the best way to protect Jewish
populations in danger would be to work towards a world in which all
peoples were accorded respect and dignity.
Over 100 years later, AJC continues its efforts to promote pluralistic
and democratic societies where all minorities are protected. AJC is an
international think tank and advocacy organization that attempts to
identify trends and problems early – and take action. Our key areas of
focus are:
In addition to its New York headquarters and Office
of Government & International Affairs in Washington, AJC
operates 32 U.S. and 8 overseas offices. In addition, AJC has 24 global
partnerships.
AJC’s approach, tackling a breadth of interests in a deliberate and
diplomatic manner, contributes to a success that gains trust, earns
access, and, most importantly, produces results.
Dear Anon,
I copy & pasted the following from the actual ADL's website
http://www.adl.org/ADLHistory/intro.asp
Regards,
PLU
The Anti-Defamation League was launched in 1913 in response to rampant anti-Semitism and discrimination against Jews.
Unquestionably, many things have changed — mainly for the better
– for Jews and other minorites in America since 1913. Discrimination in hiring,
schooling, and housing, once so common, is now prohibited by law. Unlike in the past, few
Americans feel compelled to conceal their origins. Offensive caricatures rarely appear in
the mass media, and racial and religious stereotypes, on the whole, no longer dominate
American popular culture. These changes are due, in large measure, to the efforts of the
League and its allies.
What has "remained the same," unfortunately, is the
persistence of anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry — which in recent years have
included attacks on immigrants, Blacks, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, gay men and lesbians.
And while the hatemongers of today may be lacking in numbers and in economic and political
power, they still have the ability to cause emotional pain, physical injury, property
destruction, even death — not to mention the incalculable damage they do to the social
fabric of America and to this country's cherished ideals of mutual respect and equal
treatment for all.
The mission of ADL today is, as it has been in the past, to
expose and combat the purveyors of hatred in our midst, responding to whatever new
challenges may arise. Where once we protested admissions quotas at leading graduate
schools, today we expose Internet sites devoted to Holocaust denial and white-supremacist
propaganda. In the past, we challenged the anti-Semitic ranting of demagogues like Father
Coughlin; in the present, we are no less vocal in opposition to Louis Farrakhan.
The particulars may change, but the goal remains the same: to
stand up for the core values of America against those who seek to undermine them through
word or deed. We can look to our past record to inspire us as we go forward into the new
millennium and the second century of ADL.
Dear Anonymous Turkish Jewish American,
If you really do want to know why Mesrop Mutafyan, an Armenian patriarch of Instanbul cannot speak honestly in Washington, well it's because of Turkish law, you want to know why go read pages 1 to 4 of this post and you'll know why.
I HAVE CUT AND PASTED MICROMIC'S COMMENTS BELOW FROM A PREVIOUS POST:
I would like to second Anoosh's message here. It looks like somebody is
deliberately trying to take us away from the original purpose of this
discussion.
If I am not mistaken, this is what Joey Kurtzman said (not necessarily in this order):
1. The Armenian Genocide was the prototypical genocide in that it
compelled Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish lawyer who coined the term
"genocide," to seek ways to criminalize the mass-slaughter of whole
communities. The AJC has abetted its denial by actively supporting Turkish efforts to prevent recognition of the genocide.
2. The conversation took place between Aram Hamparian and Barry Jacobs at a Washington, DC lecture on Israeli-Turkish relations.
3. During this conversation, Mr. Jacobs said that "the bilateral
relationship between the United States and Turkey will suffer greatly
if this resolution [acknowledging of the Armenian Genocide] is passed.
… And that's the real world and that's the position of United States
Government and of the Government of Israel."
4. "… whoever Barry Jacobs is talking about when he refers to "the Jewish
community," their positions are morally bankrupt and a public disgrace
to American Jews."
Now, how on earth we turned to all other discussions and to throwing
dirt into each other's faces – this remains mystery, unless it was not
the well-organized attempt to take us from the actual purpose of this
discussion.
Should we want to keep this discussion productive, we have to stay focused on its objective and not to go outside its frames.
Perhaps, it is the right time for Joey to re-emphasize the objective
of the discussion that he initiated. This may help us to stay focused
and to be productive.
Dear Peace Love unity,
You can make someone accept and apologize for something if you have facts on hand. If you act like a child running to unaware parent and pushing only your version of the story, and asking that parent not to listen to other child's story but accept yours as fact, that's not quite fair is it? So why not give opportunity for Turks to tell their story? Why not allow Mesrop Mutafyan, an Armenian patriarch of Istanbul, to speak in Washington? What are radical Armenians so afraid of hearing from their own fellow patriarch? The truth, which will stop the flow of cash into their pockets from ordinary brainwashed Armenians? What? The truth about Armenians living peacefully in Turkey side-by-side with Turks?
I have been in Turkey numerous times, and in the center of Istanbul, on Taksim square, there is an Armenian church open to service. This is in the middle of the time, when your paid paws in U.S. Congress were exclaiming that Turkey shuts down your churches. Lie, defamation, terrorism, smear, and nowadays intimidation have been the tactics of getting your point through to world community, and it's not going to work. The truth does take its way sooner or later. I am not trying to whitewash Turks here, they have their own flaws, but let's agree that campaign that you launched against their country is simply not fair.
Sir, I think this kind of statement:
"eastern Turkey is western Armenia. It always was. Way before any turks
came. More importantly, Turks need to pay for their crimes for the
massive damaged it has caused and still causes the Armenian race as
well as all the other races they came accross."
indicates childish, immature and imbecile thinking unfit for a person seeking an identification of massacre as genocide. Let me ask you first? Where did you come from to America? And who gives you a right to come in the land of America spending the tax dollars of Americans to promote completely racist and outrageous views absolutely counter to American values? Huh?
Armenians are not a race, it's a nation, ethnicity, and a small one. So while I understand your national sensitivities, please, be realistic, the subject of your hallucinations has nothing to do with Jewish community. If you feel Eastern Turkey is Western Armenia, and Armenians are rightful owners (despite never being a majority) of that land, why don't you challenge on Turkey for that? Why do you need blackmail and hysterical speeches like above on Jewish-American website?! I would think that "race" should be strong enough to defend itself from 70 million secular Muslim nation friendly to Israel, shouldn't it?
"That would be a terrific idea because our own U.S. Archives are filled with graphic datails of the systematic, brutal extermination of the Armenians "
You should first learn some American values as well as your own history and simple semantics of argumentation. You're talking about some U.S. archives? Which ones? I brought you as an example archives of ARF Tashnak party, which their activists refuse to reveal. Perhaps, you may answer the question as to why? If genocide is a fact, and Armenian community is going into painful expenditures to prove it so, why not open this additional piece of evidence and let the world see the truth?
Phantom, perhaps for you Turkish Jew can never be Jewish American, but let me remind you that Jewish identity is defined by religion not just by political beliefs or national association.
But probably for you and some of your countrymen calling an opposition leader Turkish Zionist simply for having Jewish wife and asking him to get out with his wife to Israel, will finally come to understanding that fascism is not the way of dealing with past grievances. Armenian anger will only damage Armenian society.
In all fairness, I have posted a few times and have been critical of both the turks and their denial of the Armenian genocide and of Israel, who for some reason also helps the denial. But In no way do I ever mean to imply that all Turks are bad or all Israelis are bad. No way.
There are many great thinkers in both communities who really do understand and are working for not only the truth but towards reaching a common ground as we are basically all the same.
You are one of those great thinkers, Joey Kutzman. You are the light in your community. Keep up the great work!
M'Dear Anonymous Turkish Jewish American,
hmmmmm… you last paragraph sounded like this to me…. so when you are looking at the current Palestine and Israel situation, you are automatically reminded of the Holocaust? But what does Palestine and Israel have to do w/ Holocaust? Are you implying that it's a good thing that Jews got killed during the supposed Holocaust because of what Jews are doing to Palestine. Where is your logic, your knowledge of world history? Can someone please tell me how many false statements I made in this paragraph! If someone told you that, what would you think of them?
Accepting the Armenian Genocide, DOES NOT mean
we are breaking ties with Turkey, they are our colleagues, they are our
allies. "They are moderate, Muslim government and we need to work on
them" (Hedy Fry).. Acceptance has high correlation of forgiveness (not forgetting though).
Lol, you "TAX DOLLARS" are going into Iraq actually. Almost every American feels this under their skin.
Youtube vs. Historical Archives…lol… just out of curiosity how old are you? You have learned so much to deny actual history, that you are too scared to research actual recorded history!
As in any genocide or holocaust, it is crucial to remember those few families who put their and their families lives in danger by taking in an Armenian and/or a Jewish child and raised them as their own. These families risked their families life to save a child, yes a child, because in their eyes that child could of been anyone. They are heroes in my eyes!
With Much Respect,
Peace Love Unity
P.S. I do not tolerate the denial of Armenian Genocide, just because it pleases some!
Calling someone a turk isn't racist. It's the truth.
Also you seem to forget the trials in turkey after the Armenian Genocide, were held and Talaat, Enver and Jemial, the three main architects of the Armenian Genocide, were all convicted but escaped punishment by leaving turkey.
By the way, it's not just the "Armenian version against the turkish version". Why would the international Association of Genocide Scholars call it a genocide? How about the 23 countries including Germany, turkies own ally during the Genocide, who currently has 4 to 5 million turks living upon it's soil, say it was genocide? Why would most all historians, other then the few who get paid by turkish grants ( really US tax payer dollars) say it was genocide? Yes, there are thousand of pages in our own US archives of official telegrams by our own state department describing the "systematic brutal extermination of the Armenians by the Ottoman Turks". These are all facts and not just "the Armenian version". or 'Armenian propaganda'.
The idea that Armenians killed mass turks in an uprising is nonsense. That was created to cover the fact that modern day turkey was founded upon Genocide. We are to believe somehow the Armenians had the ability to muder hundreds of thousands of tuks yet couldn't stop their own genocide? And that some ARF tashnak book or document in Boston holds all these answers???
The truth is that the turks with the help of the kurds, sytematically killed all the unarmed Armenian men and marched the women, children and elderly to be "relocated" to an empty deasert were most all were raped, mutilated, drowned tortured and outright murdered. The purpose of the Armenian Genocide was tukish unity, pride, because the "master Tukish race" as they thought they were, lost 62% of it's brutal occupation within 2 short years and of course money and land. The Armenians, Greeks and Assysrians were the only people left under Ottoman control and all were systematically murdered. The Europeans and the Arabs by this time, were free of the Ottoman brutality.
Fact: eastern Turkey is western Armenia. It always was. Way before any turks came. More importantly, Turks need to pay for their crimes for the massive damaged it has caused and still causes the Armenian race as well as all the other races they came accross.
Did the court in Nuremberg rule that those charged had committed a "Genocide"? Enjoy researching this topic. Perhaps you'll learn something about past Genocides, including the Armenian Genocide.
BTW, I'm no expert, but I don't think that being a Turk with a Jewish-Turkish ancestor from the "Ottoman Empire" makes you a Jewish-American.
Dear angry Anonymous Armenian,
There is no need for racist classifications. I said before that part of my Jewish ancestry goes back to Ottoman Empire, where they lived in peace. If you choose to call me a Turk, that's your own business.
Regarding your suggestion about Nazis and Jews deciding on Holocaust, at the end of World War 2, Jews, Germans, Americans and many other people involved in war on either side came together in Nuremberg trials to identify and punish those responsible for Holocaust. So it wasn't one sided blame and intimidation game as the one Armenians are playing against Turkey.
Also regarding your: "our own U.S. Archives are filled with graphic details of the systematic…". Perhaps, but we don't know that. The archives of ARF Tashnak party are a private collection which was never made available to public despite repeated offers from government of Turkey to mutually open them for unbiased historical investigation. So for an innocent bystander, that means there is probably something to hide there that Armenian folks refuse to publicize.
Truth my friend comes out sooner or later.
Sadly, millions of Turks are being blamed for something they actually had nothing to do with, but are very fearful of discussing it honestly because it's against the law in Turkey. Why? Because certain elements of the government and military establishment are propping up a very old lie, and protecting the memory those who actually planned and committed this crime. Their fear is that those nasty Armenians (like European Jews) might ask for their stolen land, homes, businesses, monuments and churches back…or at least get some compensation for them. The fear is all about $$$$$, and yes, humiliation and embarrassment too, but come on folks, get over it. No, you're not to blame for the crime, not in the least, but have the humanity to stand up, tell it like it is, apologize (at least) and allow your former Ottoman compatriots to move on. More than anything, it's the endless denial (and apparent sacrosanct protection of the perpetrators) that really irks Armenians today. It doesn't help or serve anybody and is in nobody's interest. Like dirt under the rug, you really need to sweep it away eventually….or it destroys the rug itself. Peace.
To my angry anonymous opponent:
1. Armenian Genocide WAS the first genocide – and by that I meant that the term itself was coined for the massive manslaughter by the Turkish military machine. There were other massive extermination, both before and after. I deliberately prefer to call this murder of millions of Armenians THE Genocide – as the Jewish people have the term Holocaust. No lies, just a matter of terminology. However, if my angry opponent is so frustrated and cannot hold his temper without an appropriate medical assistance, I agree not to call this killing of millions of Armenians the Genocide and I agree to confirm that it wasn't the first – but will it really change anything? I don't think so, my dearest angry opponent.
2. I never said that Armenians were the first NATION that accepted Christianity. If I did so – my apologies. However, to the best of my knowledge, Armenia was the first country which accepted Christianity as the state religion. Of course, at that time I was very young and may not remember all the specific details. However, since my dearest angry opponent was already well-matured at that time, s/he can certainly enlighten us on the specific details – perhaps, Armenia was not the first country to accept Christianity as the state religion? And, once again – how does that change the fact that the millions were slaughtered by the Turkish military?
3. I said it before and I repeat it again: I am NOT an Armenian – genetically speaking. If my dearest opponent implies that my mother or father are not the ones who raised me – I may be deeply offended and ask for the satisfaction. Too bad we live in the "civilized" time when people cannot duel… .I would certainly ask for the satisfaction at the point of my sword. However, should my dearest angry opponent mean that I am Armenian in my heart – that is absolutely true: I love this country, I love its people and I take them as my own. Still, what my nationality has to do with the extermination of thousands and thousands and thousands?
4. How all of the above is linked to the explosive post-election events in Armenia? My dearest angry opponent has to take at least few lessons in logics – this may help him/her – or perhaps, not.. .
5. I agree with my dearest angry opponent: it is absolutely stupid to call Mr. Ter-Petrosyan a Zionist just because he is married to a Jewish lady. This is a typical attitude of stupid nationalists – as well as it is stupid nationalistic behavior to call your opponent … an Armenian -as my opponent just did! :) However, I think Mr. Ter-Petrosyan should be grateful for that: Dr. Sakharov, the person I deeply respect, was also often called a Zionist while he was Russian who happened to be married to a Jewish lady.
6. What does Turkish involvement in the events of Inquisition (rather questionable) and Holocaust (even more questionable, considering that Turkey was supporting Germany during WWII, hence whatever they were doing, was approved by Germans) has to do with the Genocide of Armenian population? Logics, Mr. angry opponent, logics…
7. YESSSS – finally we hit the target: Turkey IS both politically and economically important for both Israel and the U.S. i do agree with my dearest angry opponent on that. So, since Turkey is THAT important – shall we forget about morals? Of course, me must! Who cares about these tiny little things when the economical and political benefits are so obvious. Here I applaud you, my dearest angry opponent: unwillingly, you lost your mask and showed your real face – and it wasn't a cure one but an angry and – sorry – ugly.
To Anonymous Jewish American, who really is just another turk pretending to be a jew, says 'we should all read history first'. That would be a terrific idea because our own U.S. Archives are filled with graphic datails of the systematic, brutal extermination of the Armenians on their own ancestral homelands at the hand of the turks. Our U.S Ambassador in turkey, Mr. Henry Morganthau witnessed the Armenian genocide and extensively documented the mass murders first hand. Hardly Armenian Propaganda.
To all the others, justice and truth will never come from the turks. That would be like sayiong the Jews and Nazi should come together and work it out and leave the holocaust to the historians. In fact most all historians, including the 126 world wide members of the Iternational Association of Genocide Scholars already aggree it was genocide. The only denialts are the perpetrating turks and a handful of "paid sudo historians" like Lewis, Shaw, McCarthy whose sole purpose is to deny the Armenian genocide……………….That is all. The Armenian Genocide was state sponsered. That is why the stand against all genocide should be at the governmental level and not just left to historians.
I also agree that MY U.S tax dollars, are waistfully spent; but on Turkey and Israel. We gave our so-called "ally" turkey 26 Billion US TAX dollars at the start of the Iraq war who then refused our troops but more importantly, this was a useless and caustly war that was pushed by ultra pro-israeli jews like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz.
Please Barry Jacobs, tell all of us Americans why we need to funnel Billions of MY US TAX DOLLARS to Israel?? The B.S. of "ally" doesn't work any more. America has plenty of close, democratic allies that don't funnel billions of U.S TAX DOLLAS. And by the way, the refusal to give American Tax Dollars to Israel isn't anti-semetic. It would be a sound business practice.
The money needs to end to those morally bankrupt countries! Call your congressman and Senators.
Dear Peace Love Unity,
I fully agree with you that genocides and Holocaust are a human rights issue and shall be treated as such. But the equation to get there is simple, any genocide needs an impartial historical and legal investigation, determination, and punishment. Such was the case with Holocaust, such was not the case with Armenian massacres. And my dear, yes, Turks deserve the same human rights as Armenians do, they're humans as well.
And please, bringing me list of legislative initiatives, with Armenians putting some cash in pockets of legislators to pass resolutions, the same way as they do with convicted felon meeting U.S. Congressman, who is paid off from MY TAX DOLLARS! That's not the road to peace. You're looking to humiliate and blackmail what you perceive as your enemy and misuse Jews to achieve that objective. Why can't you take your concern to a Turk, sit down and discuss with them?
Meanwhile, searching through YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Oz9AgXkYY
"Levon leave my country, move with your wife to Israel", Turkish/Zionist and other excuses for shooting at own people – Shame to see where American tax dollars are going for "freedom and democracy", for justifying utter anti-Semitism and brutal crackdown on human rights. Speaking of which, don't you think those 8 who died on streets of Yerevan from shooting Armenian troops are humans who deserve rights TODAY?!
Regards,
Peace Love Unity and Tolerance to you.
You and I make up a government and/or an organization. You voice and my voice matters to the government. If you don't make your voice heard, then why have a government, then maybe we should all have our own land and have a country of our own… (wow that would be about 3 or 4 billion governments in this entire world.)
We have governments and/or organizations, b/c unity makes our life easy. But just b/c they make our life easier it doesn't mean we give and do what the leaders of the government tell us to do. We all have freedom of speech in USA and sometimes we forget to use it.
What do you think?
Peace Love Unity
Dear Anon,
You used the word destiny. Can you please describe what that means in the Jewish culture, as every culture give a lot or some importance to that word. (Since it seems that this is a multicultural topic.)
Much Thankx,
PLU
I believe that Destiny can be changed by our actions. We make choices everyday, every minute and every second. Why we choose what we choose is because of personal way of thinking. There is a lot that we can control, meaning we can make certain choices and know what the result will be.
Dear Anonymous Jewish American,
ONE WAY ROAD –> –> –> –> (hint: the easy way out)
The only reason that the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide is compared: (that I can think of)
1. We are posting in Jewcy.com
2. Human Rights sees no race, no nationality, no gender, no age
3. Hitler himself said "Who remembered the annihilation of the Armenians"
(He compared the Armenians to Jews, hence he learned what worked and what didn't before the annihilation of the Jews, I don't think he could of imagined at first how well his plan would work. People learn from one another and better themselves, unfortunately in this case hate was perfected from Genocide then into Holocaust. He hated the Jews that's why he did what he did).
4. Ottoman Turks had Armenians walk into the desert to die without
food or water and eventually their bones turned into sand, whereas Hitler had Jews walk into buildings and burnt them alive
and eventually their bones turned into ashes. Different technology – sun vs. fire, different leaders – Ottoman Turks vs. Nazi, different races – Jews vs. Armenians, BUT THE SAME RESULT! We are all so alike, yet want to be so different from another, you know what unites us? Humanity.
5. Holocaust wasn't recognized because of politics, but because human rights were violated. It would of become political if Germany paid off other countries w/ money and oil, in order for others not to recognize the Holocaust. The only reason the Armenian Genocide has been considered political crisis by some, is because Turks have mixed money, oil and human blood together.
6. "this is all a subject of history, to be ironed out between Turks and Armenians"
We need to educate ourselves of the world history so the errors don't repeat, history won't repeat, the errors will repeat! The Gentleman who created the word GENOCIDE was JEWISH, and he fought to have the Armenians Recognized, but failed b/c of Turkish political influence. This guy chose not to be ignorant and this guy chose to stand against the law (the two way road). Remember genocides and holocaust occurred b/c people were told not to stand up and FEAR and/or b/c of ignorance. Instead they supported Hitler and the Otoman Turks, and thought hey their gonna disappear in the sand and the wind will take away the ashes, who will remember the annihilation of the Jews or Armenians! When you look at history, look at both sides, not one.
POP QUIZ:
1. Name the last 3 Genocides and their circumstances.
2. Which Genocide did USA intervene in? Why? Did it care if those humans annihilated eachother, was it trying to make itself feel good, was it going to have positive political ramification? was it human rights?
What have Other Leaders learned from the denial of the Armenian Genocide:
1. If you have oil, money, and/or power – you will get away with genocides.
2. When a major country is at war and unable to turn attention to the genocides, – then you will get away with genocides
3. Make sure all are gone and dispersed so they will not be able to unite and speak as the Armenians do now – then you will get away with genocide
THE FOLLOWING HAVE ACCEPTED THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, which means, the Armenian leaders were gathered and killed first, then the men were gathered and killed, etc…. The entire world has chosen to learn about the world history and accept it, and its about time for the USA government to do so
40 of the 50 States in United State of America, have accepted the Armenian Genocide.
House of Representatives Foreign Affairs of United States of America,
led by Tom Lantos (Holocaust Survivor), Rep. Adam Schiff, and many
others, have accepted the Armenian Genocide
Andrew H. Tarsy has accepted the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fired_on_armenian_issue/)
United Nations has accepted the Armenian Genocide
France (2001) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Canada (2004) Canada's House of Commons, has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Argentina has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Swiss Parliament (2003) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Greek Parliament (1996) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Russia has accepted the Armenian Genocide
European United Nations will not accept Turkey, due to it's denial of Armenian Genocide.
THEY HAVE ACCEPTED THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
Please update the following, as new information develops.
Accepting the Armenian Genocide means:
1. To give HOPE to the other genocide survivors, and let them know that WE SURVIVED and WE HAVE A VOICE.
2. Helping the Armenians and the Turks reconcile.
3. Accepting the Armenian Genocide, DOES NOT mean
we are breaking ties with Turkey, they are our colleagues, they are our
allies. "They are moderate, Muslim government and we need to work on
them" (Hedy Fry).
4. Those countries include many people from different backgrounds,
and they also include: Jews, Turks, and Armenians. They have accepted
it and are standing stronger than ever. We need to do the same. We
can unite and we can become one, and as one we can stand strong!
MORE POWER TO YOU ALL!
With Much Respect,
Peace Love Unity
mental mass, what's your theory on the ADL's and AJC's synchronized genocide denial? By the way, who founded these organizations? Why should they have a monopoly on shoah business?
Maybe this is their destiny – A crock without a lobby, for a lobby without a crock.
Actually, I am not Turkish, though I do have some Jewish roots going back there in the beginning of 20th century. Massacres of Armenians in Ottoman Empire were a sad fact of World War 1 and they should be a subject of discussion and healing between Turkish and Armenian peoples, not paid political lobbying in U.S. Congress or Senate. The events of that period are not comparable to Holocaust. Jews were rounded up, and destroyed without resistance. Armenians were not rounded, there was no order to exterminate them as nation by Ottoman government. And all facts are there, Armenians fought on the front against Turks as organized military units! Lying about this issue only undermines Armenian position more than it already is.The tragedy of American society is lack of sufficient knowledge of history outside of their country or lack of any desire to know more about it, the result is propaganda and brainwashing with paid political interests.
6 million Jews perished in WW2, in what was Holocaust, because Hitler had an objective of eradicating Jews and he executed his plan. This is a legally proven fact. There are also facts that Hitler massacred millions of Poles, Russians, and other Slavs, in fact in bigger numbers than Jews. But there is no evidence of genocide as there was no intention to exterminate them and many Slavs actually were cooperating with Nazi regime. If you like to compare Nazis to Ottomans (the comparison is ridiculous between thugs and one of the greatest medieval cultures, but nevertheless), Armenians did serve in Ottoman government and administration even during World War 1.
Anyways, this is all a subject of history, to be ironed out between Turks and Armenians, in which my fellow Jews should have no business at all. What I am very deeply concerned about though is Topalian-Berman meeting. It's simply sad to see my hard-earned American taxpayer money being spent on smear, political harassment and foreign interests of radicals from a different country. Shame on politicians who undermine U.S. foreign policy. I hate to pay my tax money for insulting and attacking Turkey, where part of my roots come from, and especially when my country's army for good or bad reason is in Iraq, just south of Turkey, and when Turkey is the only Muslim society tolerant of Jews and friendly to Israel. Read some history, Americans, give up your ignorance.
And that's why there was no Armenian Genocide. You see how it all comes together in the Turkish mind!
This is how Armenian "justice" is being pushed. House Foreign Relations Committee Chairman meeting with convicted terrorist, weapons smuggler and felon Mourad Topalian couple of weeks ago:
http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=25124
"Those in attendance included … ANC Activist MOURAD TOPALIAN AND CONGRESSMAN HOWARD BERMAN."
Those curious about Mourad Topalian can read here:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/the-filthiest-48-hours/13782/
It's shameful how some in this country, use our tax dollars to promote convicted terrorists, racist and hateful warmongerers who aimed killing ordinary people! SHAME! Get alive people, this is a foreign policy of my country, the UNITED STATES!!! This is not foreign policy of ARMENIA. Why don't those who attack Turkey and intimidate Jewish-Americans to support their cause, travel to Armenia once to see people being shot by their own regime for raising the voices of freedom.
Enough of damaging the stance of our great country with your non-stopping and unhealthy hate.
Guess what, Barry Jacobs, Abe Foxman and anyone else in their camp – everyone knows, including the people of Turkey. I've been there many times. I've asked the question and have gotten the same answer: it's the government that's been lying to the people and the world. The question is, why is the government of Turkey engaging in a massive, multiyear coverup, otherwise known as 'denial.'? The reason is money, land and compensation, pure and simple. The genocide was a scheme hatched by the CUP to finance their operations for a new Turkey. How to do that? Go to the people in Turkey who had the money and the land – because they'd lived in Anatolia for at least 4000 years – the Armenians. So, in the aftermath, their friends and contacts have prospered, but the rank and file in Turkey know the truth. And, if that truth were to be exposed, either huge tracts of land in Turkey would revert to the Armenian people (such as the Incirlik airbase) or billions would be paid in compensation. Look, Jewish heirs sue to get a painting back….what should Armenians do? They lost not just a painting, they lost thousand year old monuments, their homes, their orchards, the land of their birth and historic culture. What price can be put on that? Yet, Armenians don't even get a simple apology, they get an arrogant Turkey and an equally arrogant ADL, AJC and state support from Israel. Why shouldn't Armenians be angry? They have every right.
and I can see that this website has no shortage of wacko conspiracy theorists.
Isn’t there some planet, preferably without an oxygen-containing atmosphere, we could send them to?
January 28, 2008 Issue
Copyright © 2007 The American Conservative
Found in Translation
FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds spills her secrets.
by Philip Giraldi
Most
Americans have never heard of Sibel Edmonds, and if the U.S. government
has its way, they never will. The former FBI translator turned
whistleblower tells a chilling story of corruption at Washington’s
highest levels—sale of nuclear secrets, shielding of terrorist
suspects, illegal arms transfers, narcotics trafficking, money
laundering, espionage. She may be a first-rate fabulist, but Edmonds’s
account is full of dates, places, and names. And if she is to be
believed, a treasonous plot to embed moles in American military and
nuclear installations and pass sensitive intelligence to Israeli,
Pakistani, and Turkish sources was facilitated by figures in the upper
echelons of the State and Defense Departments. Her charges could be
easily confirmed or dismissed if classified government documents were
made available to investigators.
But Congress has refused
to act, and the Justice Department has shrouded Edmonds’s case in the
state-secrets privilege, a rarely used measure so sweeping that it
precludes even a closed hearing attended only by officials with
top-secret security clearances. According to the Department of Justice,
such an investigation “could reasonably be expected to cause serious
damage to the foreign policy and national security of the United
States.”
After five years of thwarted legal challenges and fruitless attempts to
launch a congressional investigation, Sibel Edmonds is telling her
story, though her defiance could land her in jail. After reading its
November piece about Louai al-Sakka, an al-Qaeda terrorist who trained
9/11 hijackers in Turkey, Edmonds approached the Sunday Times of
London. On Jan. 6, the Times, a Murdoch-owned paper that does not
normally encourage exposés damaging to the Bush administration,
featured a long article. The news quickly spread around the world, with
follow-ups appearing in Israel, Europe, India, Pakistan, Turkey, and
Japan—but not in the United States.
Edmonds is an ethnic Azerbaijani, born in Iran. She lived there and in
Turkey until 1988, when she emigrated to the United States, where she
received degrees in criminal justice and psychology from George
Washington University. Nine days after 9/11, Edmonds took a job at the
FBI as a Turkish and Farsi translator. She worked in the 400-person
translations section of the Washington office, reviewing a backlog of
material dating back to 1997 and participating in operations directed
against several Turkish front groups, most notably the American Turkish
Council.
The ATC, founded in 1994 and modeled on the American Israel Public
Affairs Committee, was intended to promote Turkish interests in
Congress and in other public forums. Edmonds refers to ATC and AIPAC as
“sister organizations.” The group’s founders include a number of
prominent Americans involved in the Israel-Turkey relationship, notably
Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and
former congressman Stephen Solarz. Perle and Feith had earlier been
registered lobbyists for Turkey through Feith’s company, International
Advisors Inc. The FBI was interested in ATC because it suspected that
the group derived at least some of its income from drug trafficking,
Turkey being the source of 90 percent of the heroin that reaches
Europe, and because of reports that it had given congressmen illegal
contributions or bribes. Moreover, as Edmonds told the Times, the Turks
have “often acted as a conduit for the Inter-Services Intelligence,
Pakistan’s spy agency, because they were less likely to attract
attention.”
Over nearly six months, Edmonds listened with increasing unease to
hundreds of intercepted phone calls between Turkish, Pakistani,
Israeli, and American officials. When she voiced concerns about the
processing of this intelligence—among other irregularities, one of the
other translators maintained a friendship with one of the FBI’s “high
value” targets—she was threatened. After exhausting all appeals through
her own chain of command, Edmonds approached the two Department of
Justice agencies with oversight of the FBI and sent faxes to Sens.
Chuck Grassley and Patrick Leahy on the Judiciary Committee. The next
day, she was called in for a polygraph. According to a DOJ inspector
general’s report, the test found that “she was not deceptive in her
answers.”
But two weeks later, Edmonds was fired; her home computer was seized;
her family in Turkey was visited by police and threatened with arrest
if they did not submit to questioning about an unspecified
“intelligence matter.”
When Edmonds’s attorney filed suit to obtain the documents related to
her firing, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft imposed the state-secrets gag
order. Since then, she has been subjected to another federal order,
which not only silenced her, but retroactively classified the
statements she eventually made before the Senate Judiciary Committee
and the 9/11 Commission.
Charismatic and articulate, the 37-year-old Edmonds has deftly worked
the system to get as much of her story out as possible, on one occasion
turning to French television to produce a documentary entitled “Kill
the Messenger.” Passionate in her convictions, she has sometimes
alienated her own supporters and ridden roughshod over critics who
questioned her assumptions. But despite her shortcomings in making her
case and the legitimate criticism that she may be overreaching in some
of her conclusions, Edmonds comes across as credible. Her claims are
specific, fact-based, and can be documented in detail. There is
presumably an existing FBI file that could demonstrate the accuracy of
many of her charges.
Her allegations are not insignificant. Edmonds claims that Marc
Grossman—ambassador to Turkey from 1994-97 and undersecretary of state
for political affairs from 2001-05—was a person of interest to the FBI
and had his phone tapped by the Bureau in 2001 and 2002. In the
third-highest position at State, Grossman wielded considerable power
personally and within the Washington bureaucracy. He had access to
classified information of the highest sensitivity from the CIA, NSA,
and Pentagon, in addition to his own State Department. On one occasion,
Grossman was reportedly recorded making arrangements to pick up a cash
bribe of $15,000 from an ATC contact. The FBI also intercepted related
phone conversations between the Turkish Embassy and the Pakistani
Embassy that revealed sensitive U.S. government information was being
sold to the highest bidder. Grossman, who emphatically denies Edmonds’s
charges, is currently vice chairman of the Cohen Group, founded by
Clinton defense secretary William Cohen, where he reportedly earns a
seven-figure salary, much of it coming from representing Turkey.
After 9/11, Grossman reportedly intervened with the FBI to halt the
interrogation of four Turkish and Pakistani operatives. According to
Edmonds, Grossman was called by a Turkish contact who told him that the
men had to be released before they told what they knew. Grossman said
that he would take care of it and, per Edmonds, the men were released
and allowed to leave the country.
Edmonds states that FBI phone taps from late 2001 reveal that Grossman
tipped off his Turkish contact regarding the CIA weapons proliferation
cover unit Brewster Jennings, which was being used by Valerie Plame,
and that the Turk then informed the Pakistani intelligence service
representative in Washington. It is to be assumed that the information
was then passed on to the A.Q. Khan nuclear proliferation network.
Edmonds also claims that Grossman was instrumental in seeding Turkish
and Israeli Ph.D. students into major American research labs by
godfathering visas and enabling security clearances. She says that she
reviewed transcripts in which the moles in the U.S. military and
academic community involved in nuclear technology reportedly carried
out several “transactions” involving the sale of nuclear material or
information relating to nuclear programs every month, with Pakistan
being a primary buyer. In the summer of 2000, the FBI recorded a
meeting between a Turkish official and two Saudi businessmen in Detroit
in which nuclear information stolen from an Air Force base in Alabama
was offered: “We have a package and we’re going to sell it for
$250,000,” the wiretap allegedly recorded. “The network appeared to be
obtaining information from every nuclear agency in the United States,”
Edmonds told the Times.
She further reports that beginning in 1999, the FBI was investigating
senior Pentagon officials who were assisting agents of foreign
governments, including Turkey and Israel. Edmonds has not publicly
named names at the Pentagon, but a website linked to her appears to be
a non-incriminating instrument for identifying suspects without doing
so directly. Its “rogues gallery” includes photos of Richard Perle and
Douglas Feith. Perle was chief of the Pentagon’s prestigious Defense
Policy Board when Edmonds was working at the FBI, and Feith was
undersecretary of defense for policy. If either were being
investigated, it would be a matter of record, as would any reasons for
dropping the investigation. “If you made public all the information
that the FBI have on this case, you will see very high-level people
going through criminal trials,” Edmonds told the Times.
She claims to have also learned that corrupt officials in the Turkish
and Israeli Ministries of Defense falsified end-user certificates on
weapons purchased in the United States to enable sales to third
countries not allowed access to the technology. Principal recipients
include the five “Stans” in central Asia—Pakistan, Uzbekistan,
Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan.
Furthermore, Edmonds says that former House speaker Dennis Hastert and
at least two other congressmen were investigated as suspected
recipients of illegal political contributions or even bribes from
Turkish sources. Her website gallery includes photos of Congressmen Roy
Blount, Dan Burton, and Tom Lantos, though she has not otherwise
implicated any of the three directly.
A low-level contractor might seem poorly positioned to expose major
breaches of national security, but the FBI translators’ pool, riddled
with corruption and nepotism, was key to keeping these secrets from
surfacing. Edmonds’s claims that the section was infiltrated by
translators who should never have received security clearances and who
were deliberately failing to translate incriminating material are
supported by the Justice Department inspector general investigation and
by an FBI internal investigation, which concluded that she had been
fired after making “valid complaints.” One translator, Melek Can
Dickerson, who had worked for three Turkish front organizations under
investigation—she failed to reveal this when applying for
employment—allegedly stamped many documents of interest “not
pertinent,” removed classified documents from FBI premises, and forged
signatures on classified documents relating to 9/11 detainees. An Urdu
translator was the daughter of a Pakistani Embassy employee who worked
for Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of the Pakistani intelligence service
who is accused of authorizing a $100,000 wire transfer to Mohammed
Atta’s Dubai bank account immediately before 9/11. The Justice
Department IG report confirmed Edmonds’s charge that translators’
section managers issued a go-slow order shortly after the terrorist
attacks to create an artificial backlog that would justify an increase
in budget and manpower. Those managers are reportedly still in place.
Some have been promoted.
Edmonds’s revelations have attracted corroboration in the form of
anonymous letters apparently written by FBI employees. There have been
frequent reports of FBI field agents being frustrated by the premature
closure of cases dealing with foreign spying, particularly when those
cases involve Israel, and the State Department has frequently
intervened to shut down investigations based on “sensitive foreign
diplomatic relations.” One such anonymous letter, the veracity of which
cannot be determined, cites transcripts of wiretaps involving Marc
Grossman and a Turkish Embassy official between August and December
2001, described above, in which Grossman warned the Turk that Brewster
Jennings was a CIA cover company. If the allegation can be documented
from FBI files, the exposure of the Agency cover mechanism took place
long before journalist Robert Novak outed the company in his column on
Valerie Plame in 2003. The anonymous informant conveniently provides
the FBI file number containing the transcripts of the recorded
conversations: FBI Washington Field Office, Counterintelligence
Division, Turkish Unit File 203A-WF-210023. According to the source,
the FBI also recorded a subsequent conversation in which a Turkish
official contacted the Pakistani Embassy to inform an ISI officer of
Grossman’s warning. The FBI also reportedly informed the CIA of the
Grossman conversations to determine if there was any “conflict of
interest,” presumably to determine if the CIA was running its own
operation that might be compromised as a result of the phone tap.
Curiously, the states-secrets gag order binding Edmonds, while put in
place by DOJ in 2002, was not requested by the FBI but by the State
Department and Pentagon—which employed individuals she identified as
being involved in criminal activities. If her allegations are
frivolous, that order would scarcely seem necessary. It would have been
much simpler for the government to marginalize her by demonstrating
that she was poorly informed or speculating about matters outside her
competency. Under the Bush administration, the security gag order has
been invoked to cover up incompetence or illegality, not to protect
national security. It has recently been used to conceal the illegal
wiretaps of the warrantless surveillance program, the allegations of
torture and the CIA’s rendition program, and to shield the telecom
industry for its collaboration in illegal eavesdropping.
Both Senators Grassley and Leahy, a Republican and a Democrat, who
interviewed her at length in 2002, attest to Edmonds’s believability.
The Department of Justice inspector general investigation into her
claims about the translations unit and an internal FBI review confirmed
most of her allegations. Former FBI senior counterintelligence officer
John Cole has independently confirmed her report of the presence of
Pakistani intelligence service penetrations within the FBI translators’
pool.
Edmonds wasn’t angling to become a media darling. She would have
preferred to testify under oath before a congressional committee that
could offer legal protection and subpoena documents and witnesses to
support her case. She claims that a number of FBI agents would be
willing to testify, though she has not named them.
Prior to 2006, Congressman Henry Waxman of the House Government Reform
and Oversight Committee promised Edmonds that if the Democrats gained
control of Congress, he would order hearings into her charges. But
following the Democratic sweep, he has been less forthcoming, failing
to schedule hearings, refusing to take Edmonds’s calls, and recently
stonewalling all inquiries into the matter. It is generally believed
that Waxman, a strong supporter of Israel, is nervous about exposing an
Israeli lobby role in the corruption that Edmonds describes. It is also
suspected that Waxman fears that the revelations might open a Pandora’s
box, damaging Republicans and Democrats alike.
Edmonds’s critics maintain that she saw only a small part of the
picture in a highly compartmentalized working environment, that she was
privy to only a fragment of a large operation to penetrate and disrupt
the groups that have been stealing U.S. weapons technology. She could
not have known operational details of what the FBI was doing and why.
That criticism is serious and must be addressed. If Edmonds was indeed
seeing only part of a counterintelligence sting operation to entrap a
nuclear network like that of A.Q. Khan, the government could now reveal
as much in general terms, since any operation that might have been
running in 2002 has long since wound down. Regarding her access to
operational information, Edmonds’s critics clearly do not understand
the intimate relationship that develops between FBI and CIA officers
and their translators. Operations run against a foreign target in
languages other than English require an intensive collaboration between
field officers and translators. The translators are invariably brought
into the loop because it is up to them to guide the officers seeking to
understand what the target, who frequently is double talking or
attempting to conceal his meaning, is actually saying. That said, it
should be conceded that Edmonds might sometimes have seen only a piece
of the story, and those claims based on her own interpretation should
be regarded with caution.
Another objection is that Edmonds would only have seen “raw
intelligence” that does not provide nuance and does not really indicate
whether someone is guilty. That argument has merit, and it is
undeniable that many intercepted communications lack context. But it
ignores the fact that someone recorded in the act of taking a bribe or
interceding to have a suspect in a criminal investigation released is
behaving with a certain transparency. One either takes money or does
not. There is very little interpretation that can change that reality.
Sibel
Edmonds makes a number of accusations about specific criminal behavior
that appear to be extraordinary but are credible enough to warrant
official investigation. Her allegations are documentable: an existing
FBI file should determine whether they are accurate. It’s true that she
probably knows only part of the story, but if that part is correct,
Congress and the Justice Department should have no higher priority.
Nothing deserves more attention than the possibility of ongoing
national-security failures and the proliferation of nuclear weapons
with the connivance of corrupt senior government officials.
_________________________________________
Philip Giraldi, a former CIA Officer, is a partner in Cannistraro Associates, an international security consultancy.
Micromike, the only hall of shame here is Armenian propaganda full of falsehood. Let me recall some falsehoods of it: a) Armenian genocide was first genocide of century – BS – the first genocide was in Namibia in 1904; b) Armenians were first Christians – lie, the first Christian nation were Assyrians which adopted Christianity a century before Armenia; c) Classic lie, Armenians were majority in Erzurum in 1915! — And you're saying that you're not Armenian after this – what a ridiculous lie – population of Erzurum and any Armenian populated Ottoman vilayets in the beginning of century was not majority Armenian (read George Bournoutian – THE ARMENIAN scholar). Aren't you ashamed of being exposed with lies so many times?
The result of your radical lies are only damaging Armenian people. The continuous militarization and radicalization of Armenian society brought to this, look at how ARMENIAN people are shooting at ARMENIAN people! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHhKq-0zKXg). And what a shame for those fascists to actually call Levon Ter-Petrosyan as Zionist because his wife is Jewish. Is this tolerance?
So they only brainwashed here is yourself trying to brainwash others. And I would like to remind Mr. Kurtzman, that before participation in blackmailing Turkey and insulting Turkish history, he should recall that Turkey saved lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews during Inquisition and Holocaust. That today, Turkey is a survival supply route for Israel for all its livelihood ranging from oil to basic water. Turkish airspace is used by Israel for training for lack of its own. And after all of these, you endorse a bunch of radical liars trying only to blackmail and destroy Turkey? What a shame! I guess Jewish community must be better aware of these red lies as well as treatment of Jews in Armenia vs Turkey.
And I would like to thank AJC and ADL for taking an fair and just stance on the subject.
NOW, after reading Joey's brief yet very informative feedback about the panel, I feel much better! Certainly, the journalist who wrote about it in the UCLA newspaper is probably the first year student in journalism ;). Although Joey says that no document was generated as the panel's overall conclusion and the gutless opponents didn't show up to face the truth – I am still getting a very positive feeling. Thank you, Joey!
Hi guys, thanks for the kind thoughts, gotta run, heading to NY to see the East Coast Jewcers, but here's an update.
I just wanted to join Phantom is expressing our sincere thanks to you, Joey. Alone, we can only scream about injustice so loud. With your help, our shouts just got much louder. You have much to be proud of. Thank you.
I wish I could have been there to hear you voice your thoughts live. I hope the experience was meaningful for you. I can tell you that the Armenian community appreciates your efforts and your involvement in this issue. Thank you!
The panel discussion was reported by the UCLA daily newspaper:
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/2008/mar/07/fighting-denial-genocide/
Somehow, although a lot of right words were said, it didn't impress me at all. What I see is just some well-rounded words, nothing concrete – unless we have to thank this journalist for the lack of professional qualities… . Was anything concrete said – such as the roots of the denial by the U.S. officials and public figures – were they clearly outlined at this meeting? I wonder if any of the opponents were present such as His Evilness Monsignor Jacobs or people like him? The article says that "progress is being made with recognizing the Armenian genocide" – and I wonder what is meant by that? This progress – since when and compare to what? Of course, if to compare to the situation 20 years ago – probably, yes, there is some progress. However, if to look at the recent political pressure initiated by the Turkish politicians, spread by the Jewish leaders and silently and cowardly accepted by many U.S. politicians – I would say that we see a significant step back rather than a progress.
What was the meeting's agenda? Was there any resolution generated by the panel?
We all here would like to hear something from the eyewitness of the event, Mr. Kurtzman.
Dear drddkatz,
Although I agree with each and every word of what you said in regard to why we have to recognize all forms of political manslaughter, I have to emphasize it once again: there are denialists and denialiasts, and – denialists… three groups, really:
1. cold-blood no-decency, no-honesty, slutty (pardon my French) politicians;
2. brain-washed people who can not be cured even through the surgery invasion;
3. uneducated potatoes.
Of these groups, #1 are certainly not fools – they are sophisticated and well-educated SOBs; #2 are indeed fools, and #3 – well, there is still some hope… .
We are all looking forward to hear about this panel discussion – one can only imagine how hot it was… .
I find it hard to believe that people such as Barry Jacobs choose to deny or look the other way on this issue. Armenian Genocide DID happen and (to your misunderstood position) DO NOT represent my views as a second generation Holocaust survivor or the Jewish community. As for myself, I protest any genocide past and current, because (its due to people such as Barry Jacobs who chooses to look the other way on these issues) that the world chose to ignore the holocaust….people who deny or choose to ignore the past in my opinion are fools….We all have to take a moral stand and be vigilant toward any denial or ignorance of any genocide.
"Providing that Mr. Kurtzman is reading our correspondence…"
Hey all, I have indeed been following the convo. Very much looking forward to the panel discussion tonight, sounds like there's going to be a great turn-out (and at least one reader reports that they're flying to LA for it). I'll update you afterward…
lol that is so true about the oranges and apples lol
Hmmm.. I've just realized that the professor's saying was not of Armenian origin! The thing is that the name "Armenia" is of Persian origin. The Armenians, however call the country Hayastan – from which the name of the nation obviously derived – in Armenian.And, of course, letter "H" is not he first in the alphabet ;). I am just being picky – don't mind me! :)
Your prof was a jackass! Or maybe he had a lot of male Armenian students; we tend to be mamma's boys! It's not our fault, blame our moms! My mom still peels my oranges, and when I say I'm not hungry, she gives me sliced apples instead, because it's a known fact that you don't need to be hungry to eat an apple.
Hi Phantom…
The professor I had, he said that since the A in the Armenian, is the begining of the alphabet, they feel like Armenians feel like things should be handed to them or done for them. It's really insulting, 'cause I know that is not true for the most part.
Armenians to tend to be proud people but most of them are very hard working.
The only reason I brought it up, is that if there are people who think this way, then it needs to be addressed!
(The T was for Turkey, I just added that).
M'Dear MicroMike,
When it comes to human rights, I really don't care who's idea it was… as long as the right thing gets done!
Dear Peace Love Unity,
Thank you for the most encouraging message. Indeed, it is common – not only for Armenians but for some other nations to expect from others to do the things for them – for many "well-justified" reasons: either being "A" or being "chosen" – you name it! :) As I already said to our respected Anonymous opponent (presumably, Turkish) several times – I am not Armenian, so the "A" principle does not apply here. The only reason I haven't stepped forward with the first draft of the petition/statement is because I thought that the idea was yours and I did not want to grab the baton from your hands. :) Also, I will be able to give some time to this initiative only at the end of the next week. Providing that Mr. Kurtzman is reading our correspondence, I also hope to receive a message from him with indication of his opinion on this matter.
Warmest regards,
MicroMike.
I don't understand the "A is before the T" comment. Can you please explain. Thank you.
Dear MicroMike,
I once had a very renowned Jewish philosopher as a professor who taught in a community college. He gave a very interesting observation, and it wasn't a very nice one either. He said that most of the Armenians he met, felt like others had to do the work for them just because their A is before the T. Insulting at first thought, but motivating at the second.
I urge you to write the letter and send it to Mr. Kurtzman… not the other way around. It is the A cause and we need to initiate it and encourage others.
With Much Respect,
PLU
This was in the Turkish news today: http://blogian.hayastan.com/2008/03/04/armenians-hanged-in-turkish-ceremony/
Apparently, the Turks have an annual celebration in Erzeroum, a city that had a very large Armenian population before they were exterminated in 1915. The celebration is essentially a reenactment of massacring the Armenian population. The children of the city get to watch as "Armenian rebels" stab Turkish Muslim babies to death and kill a Muslim priest. The Armenians are then routed by Turkish soldiers who come to save the town from the treacherous Armenians. The Armenians are then stabbed and hung in the streets.
In Turkey, this passes as a warm family affair where parents and their children can spend quality time together watching "Armenians" being hung on rafters. If you plan to go, bring your Visa card, because although the reenactment is free, they get you with the pricey popcorn and soft drinks.
Very well said!
Alamity,
It appeared to be that everybody already let his/her steam off. The spears were broken so many times that I am tired to count. All kind of words were thrown in every possible direction. Now what? In my humble opinion, the idea of an open letter is not that bad after all. As for the "denial part", I think is is also pretty clear: there are few herds of denialists: i)cold-blood political sharks – don't ask what they REALLY think – because it is not important, but the political cause is what determines the words that leave their mouths; ii)brain-washed – that is a very hard clinical case, nothing can be done here; iii)uneducated – still some hope.
So, what really can be done to put denialists to where they belong – the hall of shame?
In deference to those who just flicked their mental light switch to on position need to understand that Joey's column on the Armenian genocide is NOT about "proving the veracity of the genocide", but rather about the "denial part of the genocide" as seen through the mind's-eyes of Mr. Jacobs —If you're still in doubt, go back and read the article again.
It is therefore, enormously important to stay focused on the issues and be germane to the topic at hand. There is not a scintilla of doubt in my mind that the vast majority of Jewcy posters are, both, insightful and delightful. However, there are few — you know who you are — nocturnal creatures out there who want nothing more than disrupting Jewcy forums at all cost; they hide behind anonymous masks and hurl stink bombs and enjoy the disruption they create. These invertebrates are not the least interested in civil discourse; they will crawl back under the rock they came out from under, only when they achieve mayhem and chaos to the forums they invade.
Sincerely, I enjoy the different perspective each and everyone of you bring to the table. We can learn so much from one another. Just remember, you're unique, just like everyone else. Finally, empirical evidence casts doubt on the possibility of achieving a win by taking it upon one's self to summarily "shoot first,aim later — or never" tactical approach. Akin to a page right out of George Bush's playbook — it doe's not work.
I second each and every word of this message! I wish I can say it with the same strength and so convincingly-clear as the Anonymous author did! THANK YOU!
I am an Armenian grandchild of genocide survivors.
I wish to say first and foremost that the Jewish community's staunch support for the truth of its own history (particularly of the Holocaust) is an inspiration to me. Being the grandchild of genocide survivors (and growing up with a lot of Jewish friends) I always have felt in the depths of my soul an absolute revulsion to the filth of genocide whether it be the millions of innocent Jews or Armenians or others who were murdered for their race or religion.
I want first of all to condemn anybody in this forum who has represented themselves as Armenian and writes anti-Semitic messages. I don't believe you are Armenian. In 2005, Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler made the Best Seller list in Turkey and that is more likely where this filth comes from.
Secondly, I think it is in the interest of Jews everywhere to stop winking at the "realpolitic" nonsense; I think it is harmful truly to all the values of the Jewish religion and to the integrity of intellectual life which the Jews I have known all my life have valued. I don't think it's in Israel's interest either: much better to form an ethical stand that incorporates notions of peace and justice. "
Could I also add that I am married to a Greek whose grandparents also survived ethnic cleansing and mass murder in the same region and the same period – I'm speaking of the Pontic Greeks of the Black Sea area who were also forced on the marches that killed so many Armenians (this has now been recognized – this year – by the International Association of Genocide Scholars). I would like to say that it is a great source of significance to me that members of the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox church and the Greek establishment such as the Athens police chief under Nazi occupation helped Jews to survive in Athens and elsewhere and that one can find their names at Yad Vashem. My mother-in-law lived through the Nazi Occupation which the Greeks resisted and I know Jewish families who trace their history in Greece to ancient times.
It really appals me to read any anti-Semitic comment purporting to be from an Armenian which is obviously a provocation! I never heard such thing in my life in my community – my parents were very happy that my friends were the Jewish kids in school, because they respected and admired their parents and their values, whom they were also proud to call their friends!
You are right micromike123. I apologize. Did not mean to lower myself…
Dear Albert,
Although I can understand you being emotional, please listen to what I am going to say. The way you are addressing OUR opponents in fact hurts our cause because you behave the same way they do – and this is exactly what they want – to bring everything to the level of a kitchen or flea market bragging. Try to stay calm, to use well-justified arguments, be sarcastic but never – angry. Hate is the feeling that may kill your good intentions. Be stronger, be wiser, be smarter, and never loose ability to think and express yourself with as little exaggeration as possible. I know that all of these things are easy to say but so damn difficult to do – I am the same, having a short fuse and easily getting "ignited" – yet I am trying to follow what I just said. And – one more thing: when you clearly see that the opponent cannot hear you – start ignoring him since there is no point to discuss anything at all. Just an example: you said "just like Jews were in Israel before the others" – which is historically or, if you wish, also Biblically completely incorrect. Even the city of Jerusalem is older than the age stated by the "books" since before the Jews came, it was a settlement of another tribe who were simply kicked off their land (because the God said so?!). Our opponents may pick up from here and certainly say that the very same is true for Yerevan which dating starts from Erebuni. You see, the more back in history we look, the fuzzier things are – and our opponents are using each and every opportunity they have to present everything the way they want. Stay strong and be above the dirty kitchen bragging – whenever it is possible to hold temper (damn difficult thing to do!).
Dear Peace Love Unity,
I hope Mr. Kurtzman is following the discussion he initiated and, should he find your (our) idea interesting, I hope we will hear from him soon enough.
As for the politicians – forgive me but I have no trust in any of them. To get involved in politics is just another way to make profit – at the tax payers expense. There is no such a thing as an honest politician – because the honest person cannot go all the way up without bending the rules – a little bit here and a little bit there,and suddenly – a lot in another situation. It is my firm believe that it happens everywhere in the world for one reason: people in power do not feel that it is THEIR country and THEIR people they must serve – however, they do know that they have rather limited period of time during which they have a chance to fill their pockets and – in most situations escape prosecution (you know, the higher person's position, the less chance for him to be punished as severily as the common person would be punished for similar deeds -common knowledge). In my heart, I am a monarchist – I hope it doesn't make me a bad person in your eyes :).
With deepest respect,
MicroMike.
Go back to school and educate yourself before you express idiocies as such in public. True there are Armenians still left in Turkey, Aderbaijan, and all surroundings, that is not because they are nice to us but because these territories were Armenian before they came along and committed Genocide. We were there long before them, just like Jews were in Israel before the others.
Dear Mr. MicroMike,
I believe in the American government, if the congressman or whoever gets enough pressure from the public, they will do what the public wants. If we don't pressure them, then they will do what pleases their other interest. I believe it is crucial to write to our leaders, even if you don't believe in it.
I also like your idea, of writting a petition. I believe though it should be written by http://www.jewcy.com and Armenians, and reviewed and approved by various organizations, before it starts circulating. You should get in touch with Mr. Kurtzman.
With Much Respect,
Peach Love Unity
The Eeriness of Silence…
I share this story not for pity, but because I learned a lesson and I want to share. When I was eleven, I witnesed a robber put a gun to the back of my mother's head as she had fallen on her knees, and by the end of that long, ten minutes he shot my father, the bullet entered his right shoulder and existed the left. I am lucky, because I still have my family, and every one considered it a miracle.
That ten minutes of my childhood, haunted me and my family for the next five years. We never knew if they were caught, we simply didn't talk about it and never bothered the police when they stopped calling us. We quietly, separately, wondered about it until we met another family, they openly spoke about their incident (they lost a loved one and the robbers/murderers were caught and jailed), and by the end of the night we were sure that the robbers in both incidences were the same, and were currently in prison.
I don't ever remember feeling so much peace as that night. We had justice, and we didn't have to be afraid.
I had the most unimaginable happen to my family and I witnessed it, but it was only ten minutes worth of unimaginable. These people who survived the Genocide and the Holocaust, witnessed the unimaginable over and over and over and over again, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year… What right do I have to ask them, to talk about their memories? How dare I?
Those who chose to speak out, is because they found some peace in them and were able to put the images into words. Others still fear (even after 90 years), yes still fear to speak about it because they have not been able to find peace.
That family that night, gave us peace and courage to move on and believe in life again.
They went through the unimaginable and had found justice, and were willing to share it with us. That was the most priceless and precious gift I and my family have ever recieved.
As I learned about the Genocides and the Holocaust, I chose to take the stand and speak up to give hope to others for them to know that there is justice and believe in life again.
LET'S BREAK THE SILENCE OF GENOCIDE TOGETHER!
Peace Love Unity,
What a wonderful idea! I like it a lot!
Of course, it should be shaped in proper words to avoid any possible confusions and mis-interpretations, such as that Holocaust is the massive killing of the Jewish population, and Genocide is the term that was specifically coined and used to identify annihilation of Armenians in Turkey, etc.
I don't think it will really work if to write to a Congressman. Of course, there may be some of these political pencil-pushers who are truly active and are really workingtheir tails for the tax-payers money – but not the one who is a co-founder of the Armenian Committee in the U.S. Congress – what a great disappointment you are, Mr. Pallone! He speaks good but does he really do anything? I doubt it. If any of these words would only shape into something real:
http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11252
These are nothing but political lies.
Now, back to this wonderful initiative. If I may suggest – we can shape an open letter/petition, spread the word and see how many people around the world will join us. Is this too naive? Please, share your opinions.
http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FAV0asyMiAE
"On March 29, 1933, two days after Max's letter to Harriman,
Max's son, Erich Warburg, sent a cable to his cousin Frederick M.
Warburg, a director of the Harriman railroad system. He asked
Frederick to “ use all your influence '' to stop all
anti-Nazi activity in America, including “ atrocity news and
unfriendly propaganda in foreign press, mass meetings, etc. ''
Frederick cabled back to Erich: “ No responsible groups here
[are] urging [a] boycott [of] German goods[,] merely excited
individuals. '' Two days after that, On March 31, 1933, the
American-Jewish Committee, controlled by the Warburgs, and
the B'nai B'rith, heavily influenced by the Sulzbergers
(New York Times), issued a formal, official joint statement of
the two organizations, counseling “ that no American boycott
against Germany be encouraged, '' and advising “ that no
further mass meetings be held or similar forms of agitation be
employed. ''@s3@s1
The American Jewish Committee and the B'nai B'rith (mother of
the “ Anti-Defamation League '') continued with this
hardline, no-attack-on-Hitler stance all through the 1930s,
blunting the fight mounted by many Jews and other anti-fascists.
Thus the decisive interchange reproduced above, taking place
entirely within the orbit of the Harriman/Bush firm, may explain
something of the relationship of George Bush to American Jewish
and Zionist leaders. Some of them, in close cooperation with his
family, played an ugly part in the drama of Naziism. Is this why
“ professional Nazi-hunters '' have never discovered how
the Bush family made its money?"
THE FOLLOWING HAVE ACCEPTED THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
40 of the 50 States in United State of America, have accepted the Armenian Genocide.
House of Representatives Foreign Affairs of United States of America, led by Tom Lantos (Holocaust Survivor), Rep. Adam Schiff, and many others, have accepted the Armenian Genocide
Andrew H. Tarsy has accepted the Armenian Genocide (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fired_on_armenian_issue/)
United Nations has accepted the Armenian Genocide
France (2001) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Canada (2004) Canada's House of Commons, has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Argentina has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Swiss Parliament (2003) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Greek Parliament (1996) has accepted the Armenian Genocide
Russia has accepted the Armenian Genocide
European United Nations will not accept Turkey, due to it's denial of Armenian Genocide.
THEY HAVE ACCEPTED THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
Please update the following, as new information develops.
Accepting the Armenian Genocide means:
1. To give HOPE to the other genocide survivors, and let them know that WE SURVIVED and WE HAVE A VOICE.
2. Helping the Armenians and the Turks reconcile.
3. Accepting the Armenian Genocide, DOES NOT mean we are breaking ties with Turkey, they are our colleagues, they are our allies. "They are moderate, Muslim government and we need to work on them" (Hedy Fry).
4. Those countries include many people from different backgrounds, and they also include: Jews, Turks, and Armenians. They have accepted it and are standing stronger than ever. We need to do the same. We can unite and we can become one, and as one we can stand strong!
MORE POWER TO YOU ALL!
With Much Respect,
Peace Love Unity
Exactly, Peace Love follow Phantom's suggestion, that's all justice is about! And don't forget to make that donation to ANCA again, your money is going to a decent cause – enriching Hamparians while lumpenizing Armenia.
Peace, love, unity,
You wanted some suggestions on ways to help stop the cycle of Genocide. Here's one suggestion: write to your Congressman and your community leaders (for Jewish-Americans, that would include ADL, AIPAC, JINSA, AJC, etc.) and ask them to support passage of the Armenian Genocide resolution.
*** SHORT TERM GOAL: STOPPING THE CYCLE OF GENOCIDE by accepting the Armenian Genocide. (This is one of the important steps toward that Goal.)
Peace Love Unity, and how is accepting the result of decades old political campaigning, refuting historical research, committing terrorism, spreading lies, and inflating artificial numbers going to stop genocide in Darfur or bring back to life the victims of Rwanda?? I would think of another angle, it will make the life of people in Armenia even worse than it is with further straining relations with Turkey. Turks are a nation where issues of honor carry historical importance, and they will never accept something that is unfairly and unilaterally lays blame on it, even if entire planet accepts the Armenian-made version of 1915 events. Go ahead, waste your time, but remember that people in Armenia suffer because of exactly this.
Micromike, no one is asking you to discuss anything. You have been provided with references to anti-Jewish racism in Armenia as well as to intolerance of Armenians against Turks and outright genocide carried out against Azeris. You either deny or ignore all, or come out with lame counter excuses.
And please, keep your comments away from personal level. For any bystander, it's obvious that not a single Turkic soul resides either in Armenia or in Armenian-occupied regions of Azerbaijan, while up to 100,000 live in Turkey and up to 30,000 Armenians still live in Azerbaijan according to U.S. State Department. Do you deny the fact? And it wasn't 800 Azeris but 30,000 total which died in the war including civilians, 800,000 deported from regions of Azerbeijan and 200,000 from Armenia proper, thus finishing the process of ethnic cleansing. Do you deny the fact?
I have no problem about "forget the past let's look into future" rant of yours. But this is not past, this is present, today, 2008, when war criminal runs your country and kills your people fighting for freedom, peace and democracy, and you come out blaming Turks for all the sins on this planet. In past decade due to militarization and isolation of its society, Armenia has become an inferior dictatorship and a colonized state. Armenia's entire energy and communication industries are now owned by Russia, so it's no longer an independent country. Its borders are not even protected by Armenian army either, its budget survives on persistence level deposits from abroad, and over 1/3 of its population lives below poverty level. This is just the beginning of your "great" project, which will only eradicate your own nation.
So sit back and think, is this confrontation worth for Armenian people. And please, refrain from your "let's be friends and recognize Armenian genocide" idea please,people are not stupid. Yes, let's be friends and recognize that there was genocide in Azerbaijan as well as in Anatolia committed by Armenian troops. Will you?
What lacks on the ground, and what you're missing all along is an issue of trust. Due to increased hatemongering of ANCA and other politickers sitting in comfortable U.S. homes, while 1/3 of Armenia lives in poverty, there is no trust left between Armenian and Turkish peoples. Turkey does not trust Armenia, because Armenia does not recognize the borders of Turkey, has no respect for international law and treaties, invades and violates neighboring country's borders, lays claims on greater state against another country to the north. Measure your capabilities, there are only 1.5 million voters in Armenia (one would assume so population is barely 3 million), so time to stand back and think about its future among far more powerful and constantly alienated neighbors. Live in peace.
Dear Mr. Kurtzman THANK YOU!!! Thank You for being so courageous to write about such a hot topic.
Dear Phantom, Mircromike and those who want to stop the cycle of genocide:
Here's a challenge for those who want to reach the short term goal stated below:
Come up with an idea to help all of us unite and stand against GENOCIDE. We, as a unity, then can develop it and make the idea into action. (I'm excited about this!)
Let's show everyone who supports the Armenian Genocide (countries, states, people, organization, ect…), let's make a list and it will be a good idea to state the resources too. We need to show as a whole, what has been accomplished, and show others how united we are. This will take away some of the small bickering and shows where the human rights activists have reached. Let's concentrate on the good and what has been done!
STATEMENT: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OCCURRED (Don't argue about its
authenticity, if you do then that means there is something to dispute,
ignore those comments no matter how disrespectful they are. Just
concentrate on the solutions and talk about the solutions, when you do
this then you will attract such attention, yet it may take time, but
you will attract some people… and hey they maybe very influential
people). Put your passion into solutions only!
SHORT TERM GOAL: STOPPING THE CYCLE OF GENOCIDE by accepting the Armenian Genocide. (This is one of the important steps toward that Goal.)
LONG TERM GOAL?: GENOCIDES & HOLOCAUST ARE UNACCEPTABLE AND NOT ALLOW THEM TO OCCUR AGAIN.
SOLUTION: How do we unite each other and stand strong?
WHY WE DO THIS? To give HOPE to the other genocide survivors, and let them know that WE SURVIVED and WE HAVE A VOICE.
With Much Respect to All Humanity,
Peach Love Unity
Go after quality not quantity! If you think you have 70,000,000 friends in Turkey good for you, you deserve them. And as you said " 'If' you gain…"
What's most instructive about your last post relating to Turkish anti-semitism is that you could not refute a single point I made, because every one of them is a known fact. All you could do is launch into the tired old boilerplate about Jews living in Turkey blah blah blah. Jews have lived in Germany and Iran for centuries too.
Dear Phantom,
I can see that we are going nowhere: we are trying to reason with our beloved opponent in different ways; yours is more surgery-like approach and mine is – well, how should I say it – more therapeutic, if you wish. None of the approaches seem to work. I kindly suggest to ignore anything that comes from the direction of our beloved opponent since our discussion is absolutely pointless. Would you agree?
Now, Phantom, you really made me feel much better about this huge number (2%) of Jewish people who signed this petition. I have a confession to make: math is not my strong side. From now, I shall not expect more than I really should.
My dearly beloved Anonymous opponent,
Once again you caught me by my tail! You see, in 1897 I was too young to count event to ten – not to a million, so I don't really remember how many Armenians were in the Ottoman Empire and how many of them I counted as being slaughtered. But, of course, you were already at your mature age at that time and you do have the most correct numbers – so I entirely rely on you remembering it all exactly and correctly.
My dearest Turkish (or Jewish? doesn't matter, really) opponent: NOWHERE in my message I denied ANYTHING that is one or another way concerns Azeris. I am very concerned about your health: either your eyes do not serve you well, or your brain refuses to acknowledge what your eyes are seeing – in any case I am deeply sorry for not being able to confirm what you are saying here.
And – once again you are dancing this old boring dance, twisting the facts, putting the words into the people's mouthes – but nobody listens you – see?
This is the very last time I offer you my open hand in my attempt to say: "let us leave all our differences behind. can YOU make a fresh start, with no hate in your heart?" give it a try, you may like it!
Don't try to deflect from the point I was trying to make. The Turkish government admits that "only" 300,000 Armenians were killed while Armenians say it was 1.5 million. The Germans just after the Genocide said it was 1.2 million. What's amazing is that you cry "Genocide" for 800 Azeris, but 300,000 to 1,500,000 Armenians is not a Genocide.
Phantom's foul propaganda claims:
"Are the Armenian people going around burning the Israeli flag? Does
the Armenian language have anti-semitic colloquilisms that are used
daily by thousands of people? Are the Armenian people making movies
that depict Jewish doctors stealing Muslim organs? Is Mein Kampf a
best-seller in Armenia? Does the government of Armenia threaten its
Jewish citizens if the U.S. congress does not pass the Armenian
Genocide bill? Does the government of Armenia threaten the Israeli
government if the U.S. congress does not pass the Armenian Genocide
bill? Does the leader of Armenia make statements decrying the plight
of the Palestinian people and accusing Israel of appartheid? The answer to every question above is NO. Now replace Armenia or
Armenian with Turkey or Turkish in the above questions and the answer
to every question becomes YES. "
RESPONSE:
1. Jews have lived in Turkey for centuries, have had their own synagogues, schools, and in fact found refuge in this country against Christian oppression in medieval times as well as Nazi-perpetrated Holocaust.
2. Jews live in Azerbaijan for centuries, tens of thousands of them to this day. An Azerbaijani Jew, Albert Agarunov, died in war against Armenian aggression and became a national hero of this country. Read this:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=18754
3. Armenia is a closest ally of country where Israeli and U.S. flags are being burned habitually, the same country which is denying Holocaust and the right for Israel to exist.
So please, stop repeating yourself.
Micromike, instead of attacking people, I think you should be worried about this more:
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
"The most accurate estimates put the number at 1.5-3 million Armenians"
There were around 1.4 million Armenians living in Ottoman Empire in 1897, so the number above is obviously false. Yet another contribution to defaming your own cause. As said above, the genocide is usually an act committed against a group of people more than 5 with a purpose of eradication/ethnic cleansing. There was no order of extermination of Armenian peoples given by Ottoman government, whilst in Holocaust case there are numerous references to Hitler aiming to annihilate Jews.
So figure games (going from 300,000 in 1940s reports to 1.5 million and now even 3 million) in this case do nothing other than defaming it. Your denial of what was done against Azeris (when the facts are only 15 years old supported even by video evidence), is essentially reflective of why Armenian side is refusing impartial investigation of facts in courts of law or by historians and opts only for political tools.
Micromik123, may I just point out that 5 out of 250 is 2%, which is about equal to the population of Jews relative to non-Jews in the U.S. In other words, that figure is consistent with every Jew in America signing the petition. You should look at it that way instead of expecting every signer of the petition to be Jewish. Otherwise, you are unfairly expecting more from one group than all of the others.
RE: message by Anonymous to micromike and Phantom
Dear Phantom, you were right and I was wrong: mea culpa! Will you forgive me for asking you to wait until this Anonymous opponent will respond to my message? Here, he did it! And – what do we see? once again, in his madness he insists on me being Armenian (I don't mind, but I was not born to Armenian parents, sorry!). If this is not madness -than what is it?
I suggested two of us – this Anonymous person and me – to be an example of how the things can be solved – by stepping forward and saying "SORRY" to each other. Instead of taking my offer, he continuous his mad attacks, incriminating me some kind of actions against Azeriz and finger-pointing to Turks (I just checked my fingers – they point to nowhere!).
So, instead of showing his good will, this mind-challenged individual want something unbelievable: he wants Armenians to satisfy all his demands – without saying a single word of how he will respond to the Armenian claims – and this is the person i was trying to reason with? What a pointless waste of time! I asked him to exemplify his good will, together with me – and in response I am getting nothing but the thousands times amplified feeling of hate.
Dear Phantom, I was wrong: brainwashed people cannot be talked to. It was a pointless effort on my site. I am sorry.
Albert,
Don't be so fast in making such a devastating decision – I am begging you. And, while saying that, I would kindly allow myself to disagree with most respected Phantom: even if you manage to acquire ten times more new friends – the loss will leave scars on your heart. Don't think of all the nation as being the same (bad or good – doesn't matter) – people are different and each person is a unique world! Look at me: the petition against one Jewish Genocide denialist is now signed by 250 people – and only 5 of them are probably of Jewish nationality. Does this give me a reason to start hating them either for their cowardness or for being interested in their own Jewish agenda only? Not at all! I acknowledge existence of both "jacobs" and decent people – even ifthey are coming in such a small number, but I would never generalize by saying that the whole nation is bad. Good friends (decent people) are like treasure, don't throw them away in anger. Even 250:5 is not a bad score, considering how much they are brainwashed by AJC/ADL. As for making friends – many Jewish people are considering themselves as a "self-sustained" "ecological system" – so they never think of making friends – and you are firing in the air. Don't be so emotional. Treasure your friends regardless of their background. Look what I did: my Jewish friend refused to sign this petition – and I simply took our conversations with him into a completely different area. Am I sad? Yes, I am sad. However, I still respect him and treasure all the good things that many years ago brought us together. It is so easy to be nihilistic and so difficult to be wise… I know…
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
I am not going to respond to Phantom's idiocies, only remind him/her: 1) that an act of genocide is defined as a crime committed against 5 or more people and according to the conditions in the UN genocide convention of 1948 (applicable after it); 2) the entire Armenian population of Ottoman Empire at the beginning of century was a bit less than 1.5 million. It's inconceivable how 1 million or 1.5 million (number often used by Armenian groups) were all just killed, when 8 million Armenians today reside in U.S., France, Russia, Argentina, Uruguay, and various other parts of the globe. Get your facts straight, stop lying, making facts up, covering other things that you commit, and have a strong case to present on genocide.
Micromike, as I said, your nationality is irrelevant, although there is no doubt of yourself being Armenian, it does not matter in any case. If Armenian side came out with the only case of recognition of massacre while acknowledging its own misgivings, and stop the occupation of Azerbaijan, plight of million people living as refugees, admit to crimes committed in Khojaly, I doubt there would be this much opposition to Armenian cause. But that's not the case, we see same criminals who were killing children in Khojaly today ruling in Armenia, and killing their own citizens in a crackdown. They don't want democracy, as only democracy can bring out justice and real desire of people to live in peace and not hate.
Turks, Armenians, Azeris live in the same region, share borders, and must live in peace sooner or later. But no such peace shall come at the cost of intimidation, humiliation, ethnic cleansing or revenge. Your pointing of fingers at Turks is weakened by actions against Azeris and ongoing occupation of their lands.
So until all these issues are resolved and people have mutual understanding of each others concerns and memories, there can be no peace and no recognition.
Albert, perhaps losing 7 million friends is not so bad if you gain 70,000,000 in return. The problem is when you lose 7 million without gaining anything in return, which is what is really happening. No matter what Israel and AIPAC do for Turkey, it's never enough and never will be.
Now I don't anymore. You have lost a friend. Just don't lose too many, you will be left alone and vulnerable. History can repeat itself for both us. That is why we have to prevent it from happening by standing together. Don't deny any Genocides. You (Jews) will have to work hard to make some friends again.
I didn't mean to say that the lives of 800 people are not important. I simply pointed out the hypocrasy of calling that a Genocide while at the same time disputing that what happened to 1,000,000 Armenians was a Genocide.
Phantom,
Why to get so emotional – let our Anonymous opponent to respond first! Perhaps, he will agree with everything I said – and then we will have nothing to fight over. Also, I kindly allow myself to disagree with you. Although Genocide is a specific term that was coined to commemorate the massive slaughter of Armenians – as well as Holocaust is a specific term, I still think that one cannot justify any manslaughter – regardless of how many people were killed and for what cause (I was blamed here as a "Palestinian ally" for just mentioning that the Jewish terrorists were slaughtering Palestinian women, children and elderly!). Please, restrain yourself from putting labels on the people. There is no point in comparing eight hundred to one million lives loss – it doesn't matter for the motehrs whose children were killed, you know.
So, here it comes. I asked a question, made an offer, came to the front with my hands opened and no hate in my heart – and I am waiting for the response from my anonymous opponent to see how sincere he is and what is really in his heart. Shall we wait, please? Dear Phantom, let us give him one chance… . After all, people do deserve another chance…
Azeri/Turkish Game No. 1
You gotta love the Azeris and Turks who infest forums with their Khojaly "Genocide" game while in the same breath denying the Armenian Genocide. Let's see, roughly 800 people are said to have been massacred in Khojaly, and that's a "Genocide" according to Turks. But 1,000,000 Armenians (virtually all of them civilians) is just a casualty of war and not a Genocide. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense! I guess each Turk/Azeri life must be worth the equivalent of 1250 Armenian lives.
Azeri/Turkish Game No. 2
Let's see, Armenians are supposedly anti-semitic b/c some Armenian interviewed an anti-semite, and another Armenian painted an anti-semitic drawing in Yerevan. Apparently, our Azeri/Turkish friend thinks Jews are idiots, and that they don't already know who is anti-semitic and who isn't. For 40 years Armenian-Americans have been struggling to preserve the memory of their slaughtered ancestors. For more than half of that period, the greatest obstacle in American politics to achieving that humanistic goal has been AIPAC, which was strong-armed by the Turkish government to fight this immoral fight for the Turks. This is not a secret, covert operation. It's openly acknowledged by AIPAC, and the Jewish community at large has not objected to it. Are the Armenian people going around burning the Israeli flag? Does the Armenian language have anti-semitic colloquilisms that are used daily by thousands of people? Are the Armenian people making movies that depict Jewish doctors stealing Muslim organs? Is Mein Kampf a best-seller in Armenia? Does the government of Armenia threaten its Jewish citizens if the U.S. congress does not pass the Armenian Genocide bill? Does the government of Armenia threaten the Israeli government if the U.S. congress does not pass the Armenian Genocide bill? Does the leader of Armenia make statements decrying the plight of the Palestinian people and accusing Israel of appartheid?
The answer to every question above is NO. Now replace Armenia or Armenian with Turkey or Turkish in the above questions and the answer to every question becomes YES. This is despite the fact that AIPAC has lobbied successfully for Turkey against recognition of the Armenian Genocide for 20 years. Turkey should be the least anti-semitic place on Earth after all the Jewish people have done for the Turks, including tarnishing their own history and values. Instead, Turkey is among the most anti-semitic places on Earth.
Our Turkish/Azeri propogandists here apparently don't spend much time on this website reading the articles and participating in the forums. If they did, they would know that this place isn't frequented by the average Joe. The discourse and commentary is at a very high level, except on the Armenian Genocide topics where the forums get littered with reactionary Armenians and Turks. The point is, the people here aren't idiots. They know who is and who isn't anti-semitic, and if the Armenians were anti-semitic, the Jews here would already know that even without the Azeri/Turkish hypocritical commentary.
I guess, my arrows did reach the target: when person has nothing else to say, he usually starts using dirty words – either in full or in abbreviated form, such as "BS" – I assume this is not an acronym for "bachelor of science" – right?
Why do "your own" concern me? The answer is simple: to see your true face – unless you are ashamed to show it – but I do not insist, really, please do remain in the shadow.
Now, where I must stop you is at your ridiculous attempt to call all these terrorists you mentioned in your emotionally disturbed message, my friends. These people are not from my flock. Period. Regardless of whether you like it or not.
What kind of "limited desire of immediate satisfaction at any cost" are you talking about?please, indulge me with elaborating on this matter. No, stop – don't do it: it will be against the cause of this discussion! Speaking of which: once again my respected opponents are trying to take us away from the actual purpose of all of us being here – isn't it a striking consistency in behavior? I wonder, why?…
Last but not least: I make you sad, you make me sad – and so, here we are: a bunch of sad, grieving, crying miserable people. Now, why not to say; let us leave all this hate and misunderstandings in the past, let us acknowledge that indeed our governments and some of our organizations were and still are doing wrong things, let us say: indeed, millions of Armenians were slaughtered by the Turkish regime and, yes, Armenians did respond to it with many acts of terror, but – let us say: we acknowledge it all, we are embarrassed by the fact that all these things did happen, but we want to move forward as good neighbors, as good friends, having no hate in our hearts. Can you do that?! Because I can! But it takes two of us for the effort to become a reality! Shall we try? Will I see you agreeing with me on all of the above?
RE: who is the real denialist?
1. I still don't see how the phrase "what does the statement of "hands are stained with blood of Azeri children" have to do with Genocide recognition?" makes me an Armenian if I was not born to the Armenian parents. Can you please enlighten me? Please, do indulge me if you can.
2. Where on Earth did I say that any manslaughter can be justified – including the "Khojaly Massacre" (although, frankly speaking, I am unaware of it since it was never in the field of my attention). Can you please point me to ANY of my messages that allowed you to make such a ridiculous conclusion? I doubt you can find any.
3. Here is the picture of your patriotism; slaughtering nations, playing political games with the dominating world powers. Did I miss anything? I don't think so.
And – yet again: the same attempt to take us away from the actual purpose of this discussion! People like you never learn, right? Unless you have anything to say about acknowledgment/denial of the Genocide – please do not disturb us.
*** "Your statement of Greeks and Armenians being a "respected minority" is
truly pathetic. Yes, many of them survived and prospered – personally,
while the nations were suppressed and being treated as animals."
That's an ugly piece of BS, as I said, read the book by Professor Emeritus of Princeton University, Dr. Bernard Lewis, I am sure you have a lot to learn from him. Read about "millet" principle introduced by Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent, which became a unique model of ethnic and religious tolerance in medieval Muslim world. Or perhaps, you have forgotten that ARF Dashnak party actually took part in Young Turk revolution to depose Ottoman Sultan and Armenians were members of Ottoman government in the beginning of 20th century.
***"And, if you call Markar Melkonian as :one of your own" – then who is one of YOUR own?"
Why does "my own" concern you so much? To start attacking personality/nationality instead of issues at hand, so much resembling an Armenian ultranationalists looking to tackle individuals rather than issues. This sounds very similar to your folks which were bombing the house of Professor Stanford Shaw of UCLA to make their point about "genocide", killing Turkish diplomats, bombing Turkish Airlines counters to get their point through instead of facing challenge in the court of law or halls of research institutions.
I am sad for your kinds, such have no long term vision but limited desire of immediate satisfaction at any cost.
Oh you surely don't pay to ANCA, there are others to do that, but they surely don' t brainwash you for free.
** "I am not anti-Turkish. I am not anti-Jewish. I am anti-denialist"
Yes, indeed, and you were "not Armenian" in one of the messages I read above. But then you say:
"what does the statement of "hands are stained with blood of Azeri children" have to do with Genocide recognition?",
Well, here we go, isn't Khojaly Massacre a genocide, actually quite recent in 1992. If you think brutal murder, scalping of scores of women and children in 1992 by Armenian troops is justified while Armenians strive for recognition of events of almost 100 years ago as genocide, then my only suggestion for you is to be ashamed of your own double-edge stance. This is what Armenian point of view is classical at, lying, hiding and denying about what they were doing to others, while bringing only pain of own.
And yes, Turkey is progressing well, it's today a true democracy while remaining a majority Muslim society. It's an example for other Muslim countries in the region, and its friendship and cooperation with Israel and all regional countries except isolated and hatemongering Armenia is a fact. The suggestion is give up that hatred and learn to live in peace, otherwise see increasingly isolated, undemocratic and economically backward Armenia – I am sure that's not the picture an honest patriot would love to see for his nation just for the sake of satisfying a limited political whim.
And Anonymous,
1. I never gave a single coin to ANCA – sorry to disappoint you.
2. I am very happy otherwise person. I am not angry at you – I am sorry for you and for your kind – you make me sad. Anger is a way too strong feeling to waste it on people like you.
3. I do able to listen; tell me, was Genocide recognized by the Turkish government? Maybe, I didn't hear it… .
4. Your statement of "Turkey is progressing well into the future by embracing the world" is nothing but a pathetic demagogical casuistic nonsense. Nobody asks you as of where Turkey is progressing – why would you decide to enlighten us on this matter?
5. I am not anti-Turkish. I am not anti-Jewish. I am anti-denialist – as simple as that. If the bird on the tree will deny Genocide – I shall be anti-birdie, you know :).
6. Your messages are full of illogical nonsenses: what does the statement of "hands are stained with blood of Azeri children" have to do with Genocide recognition? Once again, the old song… trying to take us away from the actual agenda of this discussion – but not this time, okay?
7. Do you know how to put an end to all of these? I do: to acknowledge Genocide. Easy, isn't it?
Dear Anonymous opponent,
Similar to all of your type, you infused your message with pointless statements such as accusing Anoosh in labeling some of your authorities as conspirators. I do not recall her doing that – do you? And, if you call Markar Melkonian as :one of your own" – then who is one of YOUR own?
Once again, you are trying to throw this discussion into the sea of "who-did-what-and-when" chaos! What is your goal? What is your agenda? Certainly, not to acknowledge Genocide – am I right?
Please, try to approach any Greek person and tell him that his nation prospered under the Ottoman Empire – and let us see what he will answer to this pathetic statement. Indeed, great minds like Komitas were able to create marvelous things – even under the oppression (some people may say that the best pieces of art were created by the artists when they were suffering, right? then – let us make them suffer and announce it as a driving force of progress!). At the same time, let us not to forget who destroyed Acropolis – not to mention mysterious appearance of many Greek items in the British Museum and some other places – but this is a completely different story.
Your statement of Greeks and Armenians being a "respected minority" is truly pathetic. Yes, many of them survived and prospered – personally, while the nations were suppressed and being treated as animals. However, we are here not to judge the Ottoman Empire's democracy – or the "democracy" in modern Turkey for that matter. Although I cannot resist from mentioning that you did show your real face while writing that Turkey is the U.S. ally in NATO -gotcha!
BOTTOM LINE: stop taking us away from the real purpose of this discussion! You and alike are interfering with it!
And micromike123,
Perhaps, it's time for you to stop reading radical ANCA, for years plundering Armenian people with false promises, fueling anti-Turkish (not even state but race) propaganda in the U.S. and realize that it's actually in ANCA's interest to keep the genocide recognition agenda and anti-Turkish rant always alive and to raise more money from your kinds..It's a vicious cycle of being brainwashed, always angry and paying more and more. But this going through years turns your kinds into essential mutants of hatred and inability to listen. While Turkey is progressing well into the future by embracing the world, in Armenia people are getting killed over protesting election fraud. The people whose hands are stained with blood of Azeri children are now ruling Armenia and staining their hands with blood of Armenian people. Sad. This is what should concern you and your bosses at ANCA nowadays, because it has more to do with the fate of Armenian people.
Dear Anoosh,
To comment on your statement here: "After all, the Turks have never been known for their racial tolerance, have they".
People in Balkans, Armenians, Greeks and others always complain about being mistreated and/or oppressed by Ottomans all their lives. However, if you look into history, under Ottoman domination they not only managed to preserve their religion and culture, but even publish works of art and literature. Indeed Greeks, Jews and Armenians were respected minorities within Ottoman Empire for centuries. Why don't you take a quick look through Prof. Bernard Lewis' "Middle East:2000 years". Or will you accuse the old expert of being Jewish conspirator too, alike many of your radical countrymen do.
So instead of this useless propaganda trying to paint Turks in negative picture, please, keep in mind that modern Turkey is the only democracy in Muslim world, it's the only country ally of U.S. and member of NATO, it's one of the only two Muslim countries friendly to Israel – the other being Azerbaijan, also harassed by Armenians. Speaking of the latter, why don't you take a quick look through YouTube to evidence the images of grizzly massacre your countrymen have committed against Azeri civilians just about 16 years ago in a small village. And if you claim this also to be Turkish propaganda, why don't you pick up a book of your own Markar Melkonian, written about his brother Monte Melkonian, who described all the animal cruelty of Armenian troops piercing the eyes and scalping Azeri children.
So stop this one-sided propaganda until you are ready to face all facts and stay unbiased. Trying to play political games will not help to bring peace but will only deepen the issues your people have.
Regards,
RE: racism and hatred against Jews and Turks
Anonymous,
Indeed, the nationality IS irrelevant here – but it
was not me who started to emphasize his/her heritage but one of your
anonymous "American Jewish" brothers. And, if I said that I am NOT Armenian – this is exactly what I said and this is exactly the truth – unless you know better than me who my parents were?! However, I am proud of being identified as an Armenian by such a person like you!
I am questioning these
Antisemitic supposedly Armenian pictures – the very same way you are
questioning Armenian Genocide – and it looks like you don't like it
very much, do you? Now, put yourself in the shoes of these Armenians
whose families were slaughtered by the Turkish military regime – try to
look into their eyes, if you can.
Stop putting your dirty words
into my mouth. Where did you find in any of my messages an example of
"endorsement for Palestinian cause"? How sick one's mind should be to
twist everything in such an unbelievable way?!
Here is what I
say – and NEVER try again to twist my words: terrorism is bad -
regardless of which cause it supposedly serves. It was bad as the way
to prosecute the orchestrators of the Genocide, it was bad as the way
to suppress Palestinians by the Jewish extremists, it was bad as the
act by the Israeli special forces to prosecute the organizers of the
Munich horror, it is bad as the way of fight that is chosen by the
modern Palestinian organizations – all of the above are equally bad.
However, if you say that the "Jewish way" stays apart and is justified
- I have nothing to talk about with you.
Once again, stop your
politically-colored casuistic attacks! There is nothing anti-Turkish or
anti-Jewish in any of my messages! However, if my messages are getting
under your skin – I guess I reached the target – that is the person who
hates to acknowledge the very fact of political manslaughter of the
nation other than the Jewish one! It is you who are the chauvinist, not
me. I have nothing against any people of any nationality – as long as
they do not follow your road- the road of hate and denial!
The Anonymous said: "Thank you Barry! This armenian bullshit must be confronted and stopped.
There has been no genocide in 1915. Nothing to deny if the subject
itself is absent."
There is one thing that remains to be taken care of to stop the "Armenian propaganda": to kill the remaining live witnesses/survivors of the Genocide and their relatives – but I am sure people like you can easily take care of it, right? You already started to assemble the team: yourself, Jacobs, all denialists here – regardless of their background – a truly international team of people united under the umbrella of such a great idea…
I will agree there is little antisemitism in the Armenian community; but those in Russian Armenia hear Russian and Turkish xenophic remarks. I just hope they will not be swayed by the xenophic remarks. Actually, xenophia and fear of strangers in the worst case ends up in genocide. When you cannot see the other person as a human being just like you, but rather an animal or worse, it can lead to genocide. That is why I am hoping Turkey will give its minorities more human rights and will allow discusssion of its history in public, in its schools and newspapers to include the Armenian massacres and to even call it a genocide. Why is Turkey afraid? Are they afraid they will lose their Kurdish population or Armenian population into autonomous regions and that Turkey will be reduced to a rump like the former Yugoslavia. Are these fears justified. Can they not just treat the Kurds and Armenians with decency and keep Turkey as a unified country?
I do believe that the best way to deal with conflicts such as the Armenian-Turkish conflict is to let the two sides settle it.
RE: Is this a game for you?
I would like to second Anoosh's message here. It looks like somebody is deliberately trying to take us away from the original purpose of this discussion.
If I am not mistaken, this is what Joey Kurtzman said (not necessarily in this order):
1. The Armenian Genocide was the prototypical genocide in that it
compelled Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish lawyer who coined the term
"genocide," to seek ways to criminalize the mass-slaughter of whole
communities. The AJC has abetted its denial by actively supporting Turkish efforts to prevent recognition of the genocide.
2. The conversation took place between Aram Hamparian and Barry Jacobs at a Washington, DC lecture on Israeli-Turkish relations.
3. During this conversation, Mr. Jacobs said that "the bilateral relationship between the United States and Turkey will suffer greatly if this resolution [acknowledging of the Armenian Genocide] is passed. … And that's the real world and that's the position of United States Government and of the Government of Israel."
4. "… whoever Barry Jacobs is talking about when he refers to "the Jewish
community," their positions are morally bankrupt and a public disgrace
to American Jews."
Now, how on earth we turned to all other discussions and to throwing dirt into each other's faces – this remains mystery, unless it was not the well-organized attempt to take us from the actual purpose of this discussion.
Should we want to keep this discussion productive, we have to stay focused on its objective and not to go outside its frames.
Perhaps, it is the right time for Joey to re-emphasize the objective of the discussion that he initiated. This may help us to stay focused and to be productive.
Actually, there are quite a few "Heil Hilter" and genocide denials among the posts. The Jews are active in combatting antisemitism and holocaust denial. It does seem that the genocide denialists come forward during a discussion of genocide, whether it is the Jewish Holocaust or Armenian genocide.
I called the Armenian genocide a genocide. It has always been difficult to call the Armenian genocide a genocide because the Turks have prevented any discussion of the issue, prevented naming it a genocide, and distorting the facts. It is only because of Turkish pressure that is has not been called a genocide but a massacre instead. Turkish pressure has prevented Hollywood movies from being made about the subject. Turkish pressure has prevented the passage of genocide bills. Some countries have passed these bills. USA has not, but has given in to real politics. Should we give in to Turkish pressure is the question?
Was Armenia a genocide was the first question? Second question: should foreign policy be one of real politics or one of human values first? When our foreign policy concerning Turkey has been one of real politics, this is the point of contention which causes the Armenians to be unhappy with Reagan, Bush, Barry Jacobs, etc.
Should USA keep Turkey as a strategic ally is another question. I think we have to, but this is making the Armenians and the Greeks unhappy.
Certainly, Armenians can diasgree as to these questions with other Armenians. I think Turkish Armenians also feel differently about how to deal with Turkey than the Russian Armenians do.
I am posting because I do not want to see division among the Jewish and Armenian communities. If you can keep to the issues and debate them rationally without making enemies of each other, I would be happier. I would not have posted except I do not like seeing this split among the communities.
A lot of Jews do not like doing business with Germany after the Holocaust, yet a lot of us do business with Germany to keep Germany from committing another holocaust and by making Germany economically sound. I can guess Armenians feel the same way about Turkey. They do not want to reconcile with Turkey. This generation of Turks did not commit the genocide. I have been following this discussion and comments in both the Turkish and Armenian papers to see what develops, to see if relations between Turkey and Armenia develop or not. I am hoping Turkey will give more human rights to the minorities in Turkey and open its borders with Armenia, without any preconditions about settling the genocide debate.
If you noticed, it is hard to have a discussion on most of these forums because of the number of really bigotted remarks that are posted. I was not ignoring the number and kind of bigotted remarks that were being made. Certainly, it shows that a number of Nazis, ultranationalists still exist in the world that have bad intentions. Let us try feeling empathy for the victims. Maybe I should be tougher; but on the other hand, it is too bad, some people have no empathy.
I hope the Armenian and Jewish communities do not split over this issue; but continue to debate it because people do disagree and have different views.
Is this a game to you people? Do you really think its funny? Moreover, do you think that you can say whatever you want and just because you say it, its true?
I watched the many video clips cited on the above post that allegedly evidence anti-Jewish comments made "in the Armenian language." Sure, the first few minutes of the clips are in the Armenian language. These are interviews and during the first few minutes an Armenian newscaster introduces an AMERICAN (not an American- Armenian- his name sounds Scandinavian to me) named Christopher Jon Bjerknes, who has some far-fetched theory about Crypto-Jews being responsible for the Armenian Genocide. The interview continues in English.
This is not an Armenian theory. Indeed, most Armenians have never heard of this theory and I had not until I started reading Jewcy some months back.
The Armenians are clear in who they witnessed carry out the exterminations. Moreover, the multitude of documents which lay bear the Turkish Government's evil plot are abundantly clear. The worldwide press at the time and the stories of eyewitness observers are clear as well.
When you feel the weight of the truth upon you, you ignorant and uninformed children start throwing stones instead of using your words. "Be careful of those Armenians," you tell this Jewish audience, "because they are anti-semetic." Nothing could be further from the truth and your attempt to portray it as otherwise it immature and dishonest.
After all, the Turks have never been known for their racial tolerance, have they? Perhaps it was the Turks who started this crypto-Jewish/Genocide theory to absolve themselves.
I hope that the souls of the 1.5 million murdered victims of the Armenian Genocide will haunt you as they have haunted me for my lifetime.
Stop polluting this website. For the first 120 or so comments of this post, we had some real thought-provoking discussion. What happened then? Did one of your denialist organizations send out an email inviting you to come aboard and clutter this space with your lies and tangents?
Thank you Barry! This armenian bullshit must be confronted and stopped. There has been no genocide in 1915. Nothing to deny if the subject itself is absent.
Micromike, it's irrelevant what nationality you have or do not have, it's clear that you're Armenian from your writing, so why deny that. And if you question the posted pictures, then pay attention to this link given earlier by another poster:
http://jewishracism.com/JewishGenocide.htm
Can you deny absolutely disgusting and racist anti-Jewish video IN ARMENIAN LANGUAGE?!
And your endorsement for Palestinian cause here isn't surprising at all. In 1970s and 1980s, there existed a terrorist organization called ASALA, which engaged in murderous attacks against Turkish targets throughout Europe, killing a number of Turkish diplomats and civilians. This organization was trained in its entirety by PLO and Hezbollah in Bekaa valley in Lebanon. I don't see how your anti-Turkish and anti-Jewish rant here is at all different from what ASALA was doing, but in the end, there are legal and legitimate means of bringing historical issues to discussion rather than blindly and in a very racist manner openly attacking various nationalities.
Dear Peace Love Unity,
The fundamental question here is not whether Genocide occurred and world must recognize, but whether the massacres in the region at that time were only Armenian ones to be labeled as ARMENIAN Genocide. If you came out with suggestion, let's recognize genocide which took place at the end of Ottoman Empire during its war on Eastern front with Russia, Britain and France, then yes, that's perfectly understandable. But when you choose victims by their ethnicity, when by far hundreds of thousands of Turks also perished in hands of Armenians, the approach is not legitimate at all to compare to Holocaust.
Jews had neither unifying party, nor army nor even a state at the time of Holocaust. Armenians had Armenian Revolutionary Federation since 1890, which was leading the separatist struggle by creating armed troops participating in attacks on Turkish villages together with invading Russian army. Armenians had prominent Generals, such as Andranik Ozanyan, their national hero. Why don't I ever see your comment on that?
I agree Genocides and Holocaust should not be acceptable. But neither should be historical fabrications, blackmail, and simple dishonesty. If Armenians came out saying Turkey must recognize genocides that took place in the region, and so will they, Armenians, do so, they would have a strong cause. But coming out pointing fingers at modern Turkey, sometimes with very racist rhetoric (alike that of some micromike above), when Turkish Republic actually deposed Ottoman Empire, where said events happened, this is simply a bigotry and inability to recognize someone else's suffering. Combined with politically charged resolutions (notice that Holocaust didn't need those much, as it was a fact) of blackmailing and politicking with Turkey that will yield absolutely nothing but fury and disgust of Turks, Armenian cause defames its essence.
Let's not forget that at the end of this dark tunnel, and unlike Holocaust and Jewish case, people of Turkey and Armenia must live in peace as NEIGHBORS! So turning this conflict into genetic hatred descending from generation to generation is poisonous and absolutely counter productive. Not even once, I heard a response to note, why not invite historians, so the objective is clearly to push one's own version of events as a fact without listening to any argument. And that's the path to failure.
Dear Mr. Kurtzman THANK YOU!!!
Thank You for being so courageous to write about such a hot topic.
We must remember what Mr. Kurtzman's article is about: UNITY. He did not say, if there was a genocide or not. He said, an organization who was supporting it is not anymore, and we as a group need to get our leaders to move into the right direction, which is excepting the Armenian Genocide. And we need to do this by having our leaders hear our voices.
It is very clear that if you have enough time on your hands you can research A through Z about nations, and you will find things that range from the most angelic action to the most evil action that was committed. This forum is not about comparing to eachother, if you want to discuss that go to the other forums and/or articles written by other authors (no offense to anyone). We need to stop the little bickering, leave it behind, and concentrate on the solution, because it takes the attention away from our goal and scares other people to respond. The solution is to Unite, not create anxiety and uncomfortable feelings through bickering.
STATEMENT: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OCCURED (Don't argue about its authenticity, if you do then that means there is something to dispute, ignore those comments no matter how disrespectful they are. Just concentrate on the solutions and talk about the solutions, when you do this then you will attrack such attention, yet it may take time, but you will attract some people… and hey they maybe very influential people). Put your passion into solutions only!
SHORT TERM GOAL: STOPPING THE CYCLE OF GENOCIDE by accepting the Armenian Genocide. (This is one of the important steps toward that Goal.)
LONG TERM GOAL?: GENOCIDES & HOLOCAUST ARE UNACCEPTABLE AND NOT ALLOW THEM TO OCCUR AGAIN.
SOLUTION: How do we unite eachother and stand strong?
WHY WE DO THIS? To give hope to the other genocide survivors, that WE SURVIVED and WE HAVE A VOICE.
I already responded to this emotionally-disturbed and sincerely disguised sensitive Jewish soul who was deeply offended by the Antisemitic graffiti that were supposedly crafted by an Armenian artist – let us call him for a sake of convenience – Behaeddin Shakir Zelson.
Now, let us take a closer look at this "battle of titans". On one hand, we have highly sophisticated individual, Monsignor Barry Jacobs. He was a senior Foreign Service officer with the
United States Information Agency from 1968-1994, receiving its highest
decorations on two occasions, and served in seven countries on four
continents. He has been decorated by the governments of
Venezuela and El Salvador. His domestic assignments included deputy director of
the Washington Foreign Press Center, deputy program manger for USIA's
WorldNet television service, and director of USIA's Latin American
Wireless File. In 1976, he was a Pearson Fellow, on special assignment
with the International Division of the Michigan Department of
Commerce's Office of Trade Development, and received the governor's
"Outstanding Achievement" award when he returned to the federal
service. In addition to regional issues, he has worked in the areas of
international trade and arms control. In 1994, he joined the Discovery Channel as its first
director, and later vice president, of International Media for its
networks in Latin America and Asia. He has also been a consultant in
international marketing and public affairs with several multinational
corporations. He has degrees from the University of Michigan, the
National War College, and George Washington University. Jacobs was a
Salzburg Fellow and did graduate study as a Monroe Scholar at the
London School of Economics.
WOW!!! WHAT A GUY!!!!! WOW-WOW-WOW!!!!
And, who is the other creature? The graffiti master we called for the matter of convenience Behaeddin Shakir Zelson – nobody even knows if he ever graduated from the high school.
Now, be serious: both committed crimes: Monsignor Jacob's crime is in public denial of Genocide, and Behaeddin Shakir Zelson's crime is in expressing his vulgar Antisemitism in the form of graffiti. But – tell me, honestly, whose crime is bigger?
It was a very nice message by the Anonymous individual which reached my heart. I do agree that me must watch our language – and by "we" I meant all honest people who do not deny political manslaughters regardless of the place and how long ago it happened. However, it is so difficult to hold temper when all these denialists are falsifying the history and trying to take our minds away from the actual purpose of this particular discussion! I will not be surprised if this Christopher guy will indeed be a Nazi or KKK activist. Also, I can imagine some Armenians started to ask for reparations and even for returning the lands. I doubt this can be taken seriously. It took almost forever to re-pay the Jewish people who suffered from the Holocaust – and that is from the civilized country like Germany… .I once again agree that we must watch our language. In all the messages that I posted here, I never meant to say that ALL Turkish people are bad – as much as I never meant to say that ALL Jewish or Armenian people are good. There are denialists who are either brainwashed or act as such on purpose – for the "higher" political cause. They all will be judged – if not in their lifetime, then for sure – "upstairs".
Yes, it was. I think we are arguing not about whether it was a genocide, but rather about passing the genocide bill.
I read the story of Christopher on PanArmenian.net in English. The article was written by Jack (last name Armenian). This Christopher guy was visiting in the Armenian churches in Hollywood last month. I am asking any of you guys why he was visiting the churches. He is hurting the Armenian cause. Christopher, I was told is tied to the Ku Klux Klan or Nazi. The Turks always try to blame the Jews or Kurds for the genocide, instead of themselves. I was just wanted to know if you think the Turks or communists are spreading or behind or wrote this propaganda; and for what purpose?
I am related to Turkish Armenians, so I know the genocide occurred. However, I think Bush was kissing Turkish asses when he said on t.v. no genocide occurred. He wants the troops to pass through Turkey. Many Jews like Tom Lantos supported the bill; yet some people will not provoke Turkey so we can use their armed forces base in Turkey. I heard the committee hearing and one of the Jews who supported the bill said Armenians were not asking for reparations, but only acknowledgement of the genocide. However, now some Armenians are talking about asking for reparations and land back next time. Armenians in Armenia and Turkey are more interested in opening the borders to do business than in the bills. I do no want to hurt Armenian feelings, actually, I am related. I am just wondering if you could say this Christopher guy is part of the genocide denial? I have so much more to say on the topic, but I do not want to write a novel here. I think we should narrow this down to whether or not to pass the bill; I am sure most people will acknowledge it was a genocide. Watch you language guys, I am a relative.
"Intolerance is no good for cause of people demanding to recognize their massacre as genocide." Hmm… but – wait, my dear Jewish opponent, it is not from the Old Testament – to offer the other cheek for yet another slap, isn't it? So, how should it be according to YOUR rules of the game? The Armenians must put their tail between the legs, so to speak, and to patiently wait the Genocide recognition by the Jewish-Turkish alliance? What a nice fairy tale!
I am not Jewish, and I am not Armenian. What actually wonders me is how these two messages that came strikingly one after another yet pretend to be from different people. Come on, guys – you must be more inventive to fool us here! First, these photos of the graffiti supposedly made by Armenians… now, why would Armenian write in English in his own country?! I wonder what was the name of this Armenian? Perhaps, John Smith, or possibly – Jacob Shmruelson, or, perhaps, Mohammed Abdul Rabinovich?Give us a break, will you? So, now when you digged deep into the dirt (humans don't dig the dirt, you know – pigs do), you are suddenly disguised with these examples of Antisemitism? Oh, you are so sensitive, and it hurts, really? Does it hurt more than it hurts Armenians to see you denying killing of millions of civilians in a well-orchestrated action by the Turkish government? There is a person whom I used to call my friend – he is Jewish. Recently, he said to me: "we, Jews, don't care about other nations' problems – unless we see Antisemitism." I didn't believe it at first – but now I think he was telling the truth. And – yet again, you are cowardly trying to take us away from the agenda of this particular discussion – that is the denial of Genocide. Or, perhaps, you want to say that because you found some "evidence" of Armenian Antisemitism – you think Genocide should not be acknowledged? Well, let me tell you something, my dear Jewish extremist. You must know that the Jewish extremists in the early days of the state of Israel were killing Palestinian women, children and elderly – they were not different in that from the Palestinian terrorists. Does it mean that we must deny Holocaust? Stop twisting the history, stop taking us away from the agenda of this discussion. Do have guts to face the truth- that is, of course, if you can.
I am Jewish as well, but the link above is plain disgusting. I never thought that Armenians hate Jews so much. And just doing further search found this:
http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2007/08/12/vernisage-yerevan/
Intolerance is no good for cause of people demanding to recognize their massacre as genocide.
I am Jewish-American and deeply disturbed that Armenian fascist make racist and anti-Semitic sites like this…..see below!
http://jewishracism.com/JewishGenocide.htm
I do agree with each and every word of what the Peace love Unity just posted and I would enthusiastically put my signature under everything that was just said – except for one tiny-tiny-little thing. Indeed, our goal is not to catalyze the hate. Indeed, our goal is to unite. Indeed, our goal is to establish communication under the umbrella of mutual respect regardless of background, indeed, we are here to give our hearts for prevention of political manslaughters from happening again in the future. BUT – all of these wonderful goals – at what price? I hope, not at a price of denying Armenian Genocide. If this is not the price that Peace Love Unity asks to pay – I am with you. You see, although the real life is never black-and white and largely is a combination of thousands shades of gray, this particular situation IS black-and-white: one cannot be sympathetic to the Armenian cause and at the same time to deny the Genocide. Therefore, all of us are on one or another side of the barricade here: either denialists or the ones who acknowledge it as a historical fact. There is no third choice.
This forum was created to establish communication between all individuals regarding stopping the crimes of Genocide. To reach this goal you must be very careful in how you react to others statements.
The goal here is not to hate, but to unite. Outside of this forum, many Jews, Armenians, and Turks live peacefully together. That is not the question. We are all with sin, as perfection is impossible (or we woulndn't be discussing this issue).
We need to be sure that the author's words do not get mislead into tangents. We are here to unify and we need to unify with peace and respect, no matter what background you are from. Genocides have occured to many people with different backgrounds, and we are here to stop it as a unified force.
Your voice to support this cause is what we are looking for.
My dearly beloved non-Turkish Jewish denialist,
Please, take a look at the historical events not through your prism of a Jewish nihilist, but at how history unwrapped itself. The term "Genocide" was coined by the Jewish scholar to reflect events that took place in 1915 in relation to the Turkish military machine slaughtering millions of Armenians. This is THE TRUTH, regardless of how much you dislike it and how much you want to twist the history in your sick desire to re-write it.Or – perhaps, we should call this massive slaughter in Namibia – Holocaust? Shall we? Hey, all the Jews-denialists – raise your hands in support! Nobody.. I though so… You see, our somewhat challenged anonymous non-Turkish Jewish denialist, the truth is that you are once again caught in the attempt to turn everything upside down. but – thank you for bringing a smile on my face: from now on, I shall call EVERY politically driven manslaughter – a Holocaust – if you don't mind?
Anoosh-dzhan, cudos! You are so right, I second every word you said! Let us all keep the best of the spirit despite of all these demagogic and casuistic attempts!
Okay, this is NOT a TURKISH denialist – the word jumped out of this person's mouth – so he is a Jewish denialist – but does it make any difference? Not at all! He is still the same shameless denialist, and it doesn't really matter if he wears the Star of David on his shoulder or the Green Banner of Islam in his hands – the result is the same: this person is shamelessly denies Genocide and twists the history! I assume his ears do not require any medical assistance – yet he cannot hear anything! Again and again he is asking: "What's the objective?" Well, my dear non-Turkish Jewish denialist, I can repeat it again – but please, don't say that THIS time you haven't heard it! The objective is to make Turkish government acknowledge the fact of Genocide and, if possible, to stop the Turkish government orchestrated anti-Armenian political activities. Those of us who read your comments, our dearest anonymous non-Turkish Jewish denialist, can see that you are demagogic in each and every word of what you say – and this is the whole truth, whether you like it or not. You said that Turkey gave home to the Jews during the WWII – I doubt if it wasn't done with approval of their German Nazi allies. Also, it was a politically wise long-term decision: now Turkish government is successfully playing the "Jewish card" in its anti-Armenian game. So, you see, our dearest non-Turkish Jewish denialist – you are so transparent – as well as all these Turkish and Jewish denilaists alike. I rest my case – I am not interested in any further discussion with you – you are so obvious to me, and I believe to everybody here.
…and Micromike, the failure of your argument is not concentrating on the fact brought out by authors Rothberg and Levi, that's a genocide in Namibia in 1904, but on the identity of the authors. Quite resembling of argument of Armenia ultranationalists, concentrating on blackmailing/threatening personality rather than arguing against their writing.
Do you or do you not deny that Genocide of people in Namibia in 1904 happened? And if so, isn't 1904 about eleven years before 1915? What does Rothberg's or Levi's resume have to do with a statement of simple fact?
And let's look at your claims – "Armenians are first Christians" – "Armenian genocide was first" ,etc. — this form of turning the tragedy or history into false sales pitch, how immoral! And for what? Does the fact that Armenians were not first Christian state make them any less Christian? Does the claim that Armenian suffering was first or second in 20th century, make the tragedy any more or less important? Answer these questions honestly, perhaps, you will understand how this hate blinded Armenian people, and it's absolutely unhealthy.
Anoosh and Micromike,
As been said, the Armenian people suffered from massacre in early 20th century, no one denies that, so I am not sure why would you call me "Turkish denialist". Yet there is a fact that Armenian armed groups FOUGHT against Turks on that same front, attacking villages massacring people. Perhaps, you haven't read enough on Russian-Armenian offensive in Eastern Anatolia during 1914-1917, massacres that took place in the region. Or shall be reminding you of names like General Andranik Ozanian? Do we have any Jewish general or Jewish armed force known of attacking Germans and massacring them in their own villages.
So, apart from this propaganda "wash" aiming at Turks in a very racist and completely intolerant manner, attempts to turn Jewish community against Turkey will miserably so fail. Because Ottoman Empire was the ONLY country in Europe which gave home and protection to Jews fleeing from Christian Inquisition. Because Republic of Turkey was one of the few countries which gave home and protection to Jews fleeing Nazi Holocaust. There is a history of Jewish – Turkish friendship, mutual understanding and tolerance.
There is a history of Turkish-Armenian friendship and understanding as well. These people have lived together side by side for over a millenium of Turkish dominance in the region. What poisoned that history was 20th century nationalism of ARFs, Dashnaks, attempts to carve out a nation state in lands where Armenians never comprised a majority, attempts to use Russian-Ottoman animosity to ethnically cleanse all Muslim Turks and Kurds from the region, to establish a mono-state of Armenia as it is today.
You're saying: "Are you aware how much time, energy, emotion and money have been spent
by Armenians in the diaspora in support of Genocide Recognition? Don't
you think we have better things on which to spend our money? "
That's exactly my point. What's the objective? For you it maybe justice, for other the objective is to divide, blackmail and destroy Turkey. That's why Armenia does not recognize the borders of Turkey, the next step in this policy is laying territorial claims against Turkey, this conflict will never stop by this useless hatemongering. The more intelligent way instead of wasting money on more hate, is having peace and friendship, and investing that money for prosperity of Armenian and Turkish people. Your descendants will not appreciate you for bringing more misery to Armenia or Turkey, they will appreciate you for living them comfortable home to live. And I am not sure how you're going to do that by fueling more anti-Turk hatred. Every human is born a human before be Jew, Muslim, Christian, Turk or Armenian. And I am sure those 8 Armenians that died today in Yerevan under the bullets of those who want more war fought exactly to stop that hatred.
The one thing that the Turkish denialist does not address in his propoganda-like missive is the question, "why would Armenians make these claims up?"
What exactly do you think Armenians have to gain by continuing to fight for justice and acknowledgement. Are you aware how much time, energy, emotion and money have been spent by Armenians in the diaspora in support of Genocide Recognition? Don't you think we have better things on which to spend our money?
Do you think it makes us proud to admit that our people were slaughtered? If you knew anything at all about Armenians, you would know that we are an extremely proud people. Proud to a fault. Believe me, it is not easy for us to admit that our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were so trusting of their Turkish leaders that they were led innocently to their deaths. Told that they were being "relocated", they allowed themselves to be marched through the desert without food or water. Do you think it makes me proud to share with my children the stories of how their greatgrandparents were beaten, raped, and forced into slavery in order to survive? It does not. I do not want to burden my children with such horror. But, I must. They must know the truth, as embarrassed as I am to share it.
If things were as great in Turkey for the Armenians as the Turks claim, why are all the Armenians gone? Why, indeed is there an "Armenian diaspora?" My Jewish friends know all to well about the Jewish diaspora. We live in diaspora because we were forcefully removed from our homeland.
And by the way, the Turk claims to have many Armenian friends who do not acknowledge that the turks committed a Genocide against the Armenians. Why don't you share the names of those so-called Armenian friends, Mr. Turk. Email me privately through my Jewcy account as I would love to engage them in discussion about the history of their parents, grandparents. I know many Armenians worldwide and I can attest that each and every one will tell you the horrible stories that their ancestors have shared with them about the treacherous Turks. Even in Turkey, Armenians, Jews, Greeks go along and pretend all is well, but in private, they curse you and your ancestors for the brutality, indignity and barbarism that your leaders inflicted upon the minorities living in Turkey.
On your question "how would you feel if someone stated that the Jews in WWII died as a
result of the war and that the act should not be called a "genocide" or
a "Holocaust"?"
The answer is that regardless of how different Jewish people are and how much they may hate each other and fight against each other – their own Holocaust must remain untouchable topic: no one can deny its existence! As for all other nations and other manslaughters – you see what is going on – basically, they don't care, just allow to let the steam go… Sad, isn't it?…
Our respected Jewish/Turkish Genocide denialist continues with his pathetic "proves" by quoting some Levi and Rothberg. Let us look at these "authorities in the field" with a quote from the personal page:
"Michael Rothberg took over as Director of the Unit for Criticism and
Interpretive Theory in August 2003. An Associate Professor of English,
also affiliated with the Programs in Comparative and World Literature
and Jewish Culture and Society… He has a Ph.D. in Comparative Literature from the City University of
New York Graduate Center, where he worked with Nancy K. Miller, and
previously held a position as Assistant Professor of English at the
University of Miami…" Does it say anything about him being an expert in history and/or political sciences? I don't think so, or, perhaps, I need another pair of glasses?!
Neil Levi's expertise: "B.A. in English Literature and Philosophy,
University of Western Australia, 1989; M.Phil. in English and Comparative
Literature, Columbia University, 1994; Ph.D., Columbia University, 2000. Areas of Specialization: Twentieth century British and comparative
literature, critical theory, the Holocaust." Now, how on earth did the English literature teacher became the Guru of Holocaust?! I guess it must be in his blood since every Jew is probably an expert in the field – yet, it says nothing about him being an expert in Genocide – and these two "phenomenal gurus" are suggested by our beloved anonymous denialist as THE experts? Please, stop it – unless your goal is to make me laugh to death!
Wouldn't all of us like to know who this anonymous person is – the one who suggests us to "be fair"? I can tell you who s/he is – because I do know this type of demagogical creatures. Let us assume that this is "he" – for the sake of simplicity.
So, he is asking for "independent arbitrage" – but it is clear even for a child that there is NO SUCH THING as blind justice since this ugly lady is always trying to look from under the blinder!
He then continues by saying that Armenians ENJOY blaming Jews for the denial of Genocide. This Jacobsinian (I allowed myself to derive it from a "follower of Jacobs") PRETENDS as if he does not see the point: the Genocide denial by the Jewish community wouldn't make much harm – if not for the fact that the wealthy Jewish community is forcing the American legislators to dance their music!
The Anonymous Evilness is then throwing another lie into our faces by saying that "the fact of Armenian massacres that took place in 1915 is not denied even by Turkey." Well, my dear Jewish friend, if this is true – why then it is still forbidden in Turkey to even whisper about Genocide and why do the Armenians all over the world are working together to make Turkey to acknowledge it – does it mean that you know something all of them are unaware of?! Then, please, open our eyes and give us a quote of the official Turkish governmental document which acknowledged Genocide!
He goes even one step further by saying that all of us who live in "California, New Jersey, Massachusetts, while caring very little about the plight of people inside Armenia." This makes me wonder: where this dirty mouth person lives and how much did he do for the human rights? Let me give you one example: I used to live in several countries where my work was taking me – and, while not being an Armenian, I always participated in many international fund raising initiatives to help Armenian children and elderly with medicine, food, books etc. Now – what did this person do – except for denying the Genocide?
He then suggests us to "be friends" – and I have nothing against it, but – the good friends are always first say "SORRY" – and approach each other with an open heart and not with a knife to stub his neighbor.
My evil opponent is very predictable in his tactics: he is trying to bring our attention to the current problems in Armenia as if they influence the AJC/ADL decision to ddeny Genocide. Can anybody here explain me: how on earth killing of 8 people in Armenia today may justify denial of the Genocide that happened in 1915? My dearest evil opponent must take few lessons of logics before deciding to post here – otherwise he looks very pathetic.
Now, when I started to respond to his Evil Anonymity, I was sure that he is one of these Jewish people who deny Genocide – for one reason or another. Now, that I am at the end of my message I am not that sure anymore: he may be as well Turkish! And – here is a most horrifying conclusion that I came to: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TURKISH OR JEWISH PERSON WHO DENIES GENOCIDE!
A conclusion remark: still, out of 230+ signatures on petition against the Jew who denies Genocide – only 5 signatures that can be identified as Jewish. WHERE ARE YOU, HONEST AND DECENT JEWISH PEOPLE WHO DON'T JUST TALK BUT ACT, TOO? DO YOU EVEN EXIST? I guess, not…just – letting steam go, nothing else…
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
Dear Mr.,
Turkish people just like any other people have their own unique history, culture, identity and statehood. So saying that their country is found on sham or genocides is rather indicative of your radicalism and unwillingness/inability to engage in any dialog. What was Armenian state found upon? It was established by a party, called ARF, which even many ordinary Armenians consider an organization which terrorized and poisoned Armenian history with hatred. I shall remind that ARF was established in 1890, some 15 years earlier than 1915.
Before proceeding to bringing false accusations that people cannot talk about anything in Turkey, let's recall that today 50,000-100,000 Turkish Armenians live peacefully in Turkish state, and there is Armenian patriarchate functioning in its major city. Can you point me to a single Turk or Turkish religious, cultural or national authority that is in Armenia? This is despite the fact that what is now Armenia (i.e. Erwan governorship of Russian empire) had predominantly Turkish population just 100 years ago) – read your own historian Bournoutian.
Other defamations and lies that were fed by radical Armenian groups to the world:
* "Armenian genocide is first genocide of 20th century" – this is a lie, the first genocide happened in Africa in 1904, committed by Germans against Namibian tribes – read "Levi, Neil; Rothberg, Michael. "The Holocaust: Theoretical Readings". Rutgers University Press, p. 465, 2003" and this news from BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3388901.stm)
* Another more significant fabrication spread to the world that Armenians were the first Christian nation – the first Christian king converted by Thaddeus of Edessa, one of Jesus Christ's Apostles few years after Jesus, was king Abgar Ukama of Osrhoene, who was believed to have Jewish/Semitic roots. Armenia became Christian state after Gregory the Illuminator in 3rd century.
So this form of useless propaganda and defamation is not going to bring peace to the region, as it didn't bring peace to Armenian people until now. And dare to read this:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2008/03/7d25d2bd-9268-4233-a631-bf5f29fd5bce.html
Eight Armenians killed by Armenia's own army to achieve the goal of installing new dictator in Armenia. Let's blame Turks for that as well….
In response to one of the posting by "Anonymous"- how would you feel if someone stated that the Jews in WWII died as a result of the war and that the act should not be called a "genocide" or a "Holocaust"?
To Mr. Jacobs,
Since it is only about the money, one of the questions on the ballot in this November's elections should ask, " Should we continue to give Turkey and Israel the free Billions of US TAX DOLLARS"????
Why don't we let the people of the United States decide and not let lobbiest and opportunistic organizations like yours do it. Let's see how many Americans really want to give money to those countries. After all this is a democracy isn't it?
To lets be fair;
It is great that we can discuss different points of views here in the US. Unlike turkey where people will be threatend, jailed or killed for having a different point of view on the Armenian Genocide. Why is that? Who really has something to hide? Why are turkish intellectuals in hiding? Why are the 20 million kurds living in turkey not recognized as kurds? Who is intimidating who? Who are the true racists?
Modern day turkey is a sham state. It was founded upon the genocide of multi-ethnic peoples and has to maintain this sham in order to maintain it's integrity but more importantly to avoid responsbility, ie; opoligy, money, restitution. The turkish 'master race', as they still think of themselves, is not prepared to do that. So ignorant turkish denials are to be expected.
Let's be perfectly clear; Other then the perpitrating Genocidal Turks and a few "paid mercinary historians" and purely opportunistic organizations ie; AJC, ADL, no one doubts the facts of the Armenian Genocide. No one!
One has only to read the official U.S. archival documents and or later the auto-bioghraphy of Henry Morganthau, a Jew, who was our own U.S. ambassador to Tukey, who firsthand witnessed, documented and tried to stop the Armenian Genocide.
Hitler was right when he said, "Who after all remembers the Armenians"? Apparently not the denialist or the likes of Mr. Jacobs. Shame on you all!
Why isn't Armenian side ever taking the challenge of reviewing historical accounts by independent arbitrators? Is this so hard to do, rather than to keep blaming Jewish or other communities for denial of genocide. The fact of Armenian massacres that took place in 1915 is not denied even by Turkey, but Armenians were by far not the only people who died in battlefronts in Eastern Anatolia during the brutal warfare between Russian Empire and supporting Armenian armed groups against Ottomans. So why portray the combined human suffering as plight of only Armenian people? And what about independent legal judgment of the events, alike Nuremberg in case of Holocaust? Perhaps, if all these were done, Turkish and Armenian people would find some path towards mutual understanding and healing.
With all anti-Turkish rhetoric in comments, and leaving aside all "Turkey is our ally thus we should not piss it off" types of political nonsense, why not just take a just approach and understand that 1914-1918 was a sad historical period for all peoples inhabiting Anatolia and Middle East. Turkish and Armenian peoples are there to stay and be neighbors of each other no matter what, they must settle their grievances, but not by intimidation. It seems that only dialog rather than taking political stances of blackmail and passing legal resolutions on historical issue, living comfortable life in California, New Jersey, Massachusetts, while caring very little about the plight of people inside Armenia, a country which has made enemies for itself all around it. Not being "done" with defeated and cleansed but generally tolerant Azeris, Armenia often now lays claims on Georgia, and more openly so on Turkey. What else is left? Get alive, this is not 5th century, it's 21st. Be friends, cooperate, live in any country you want to live, why do you have to cleanse people and infuriate them?
Today, Armenia is a closest ally of Iran, and closely cooperates with this country, government of which, I shall remind, denies the right for Israel to exist. So what kind of position shall AJC and Jewish community take?
Just today in Armenia, 8 people were killed protesting illegitimate elections of president, who himself participated in atrocities during the war. Why doesn't Armenian community at all care about these, isn't this a reason to be concerned about, rather than concentrating on fueling more and more confrontation, more and more dislike, hatred, war? How does this help the future of Armenian nation at all, rather than filling pockets of few hatemongerers in speculating on a human tragedy for political aims.
Look at this Turkish anonymous pathetic bragger – let us feel sorry for this poor creature in a desperate need of psychiatric assistance. His mind is fuzzy and his speech is jumpy: first he spoke about the communist leaders accusing Dashnaks, then he speaks about Demirchian (not to forget: the former Secretary of the Communist Party of Armenia) being under the gunfire – not that I am saying that these extremists were right, and now he is putting his dirty nose into the internal political events that currently take place in Armenia – and for what reason? The only one answer is: to take our minds away from the real purpose of this particular discussion – that is acknowledging of the Genocide as the political manslaughter orchestrated by the military government regime of Turkey. All decent people in the world recognize this fact – except the brainwashed Turks and the Jews who are either brainwashed or denying the fact of Genocide at the gunpoint, feeling the Turkish rifles targeting at their backs – yes, these people have no guts but who can blame them for a simple wish to survive?!
Putting aside the obvious differences between the Turks and the Armenians.
If a group of people or a person (no matter who) are/is banned from free thought, speech, and belief on any topic, then how credible is their word. I define credible as: how unbiased can their thought be?
Obviously that law has a repercussion of a negative punishment, if a certain type of thought or word is uttered in a certain or any topic. Hence, an individual fears to think freely and is forced to believe in a certain way. If this action and reaction proceeds for a long period of time, then there is an obvious strong bias formed towards the law (meaning they will be favoring the law and/or what it depicts).
The individual is forced to think a certain way due to fear of self and to the immediate surrounding, which later becomes a natural and instinctive thought.
This reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome, but on a mass population. I wonder if anyone has done research as to how it affects nations, when such a law is prescribed.
So many dumbfounded Turks are still confused with issues of ethics, morality, and plain old truth.The Turkish government's solution ? Eureka! Re-package this obdurate "truth" to make it more palatable to the general masses of Turkey and prosecute all those who dare to spit it out.
Case in point: "Armenian and Kurd" issues are taboo subjects in Turkey, and punishable by law (per article 301 of the Turkish penal code); Turkish history books have been revised to refract the indisputable historicity of the Armenian people and their ancestral lands. Notice, I am not even talking about genocide; I am simply talking about the incorrigible psyche of Turkish government and the vast majority of its citizenry who continue to somnambulate in deep state of denial.
Also, the nearly 20 million Kurds living in Turkey, they too, have been mistreated by the Turks for other reasons ( again, the point that is being made here is to demonstrate the Turkish machination, albeit, it may seem like infantile joke to a westerner, but very much an ominous stratagem on their home turf.) In fact, Kurds of Turkey are infamously known as "mountain Turks", again, the attempt of the Turkish government is to marginalize and undermine the Kurdish cause — as if to say, Kurds? what Kurds? Oh, you mean "mountain Turks", I get it now.
The Turks must stop resorting to self-amusing games and learn to call a spade a spade, call a genocide a genocide, call a Kurd a Kurd, and most definitely, NOT call, a Kurd a "Turk", irrespective of the terrain — whether they live high up on a mountain, or low down in a valley. Subsequently, a Kurd could easily apply the same syllogism of Turkish reasoning and come up with their own appropriate feculent ratiocination: If a Turk calls a Kurd a "Turk", then, whose to say, what might a Kurd call a Turk today. Ahem.
I keep seeing responses to my posting from Armenian falsifiers and their apologists.
As usual, you make assumptions about me "because you are experts in deciphering Turks". Unlike how you'd like to others to believe, I am only part Turkish, and only went to school in Turkey (a foreign Christian school) for 3 years.
In fact, to your amazement, I actually grew up with Armenians in a country which neighbors Turkey and to this date have numerous Armenian friends, some of whom are best friends; and unlike the Diaspora in the US and a few other countries where the "genocide claims" have become an industry or actually a "raison d'etre" for most of them-the only way they can collect hundreds of millions of dollars; just look at the annual report of the Armenian organizations and you will get a clear picture! The Armenian Diaspora in the US is poisoning its youth with these hatreds and lies because it is the only way they can keep these lies alive and continue to raise $$ for their "genocide industry propagandists". I love how they attack me and the Turkish states for being "undemocratic" and continually rip Turkey's controversial penal code 301 (which most Turks overwhelmingly oppose and will probably be removed within a few months if not weeks); at least the very few who were persecuted received their day in court and most were dismissed or received suspended sentences. Now, I would like my Armenian friends to explain why it is that people who oppose the Armenian distorted version of the tragic events of 1915 are targeted, attacked, harassed, threatened and even bombed as it happened to numerous historians, researchers…etc? I would be happy to provide specific names and events with news links if you would like but I don't want to embarrass our friends any further!
I would actually even like our so-called "democracy and truth loving Armenian" friends and their apologists to explain why some people even get killed/assassinated/terrorized when they oppose their version of lies or take specific actions that may lead to actual peace?
Oh, sorry….I forgot to be specific……I was referring to none other the slain Armenian Prime Minister Vazgen Sarkisian, and speaker of the parliament, Karen Demirchian who were assassinated along with 8 other Armenian parlamentarians in 1999 in the Chamber of the Armenian Parliament by Armenian Dashnak terrorists….does that name sound familiar? well let me refresh your memory, the same terrorist/radical group responsible for killing tens of thousands of Muslims in Eastern Anatolia which fueled the tragic event befell upon the Armenians and Muslims of the Ottoman Empire-by the way, as I listed in my previous post, these "claims" of Armenian uprising against the Ottoman Empire and killing of thousands of innocent children, women and elderly on the side of the Russians in 1915 were not mine, they were the words of H. Katchaznouni, the First Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia!
At least, as bad as the 301 penal code is, its victims had their day in court-the Armenian terrorist victims unfortunately had their day with their maker!
My Armenian friends here would also like us to believe that they are so concerned with freedom of speech that they would like Turkey to “reform its undemocratic laws” so people can speak freely!
What they forget!!! to mention is when the Armenian Patriarch of Turkey Mutafyan was invited to speak at Georgetown University and Southern Methodist University, the Armenian threats were so fierce that Georgetown was pressured to cancel the speech, while SMU in Dallas did not ban it, but withdrew its sponsorship of it-how democratic!!!
So please, do not fool us, you may be ahead of the game for having been born and raised in the US, knowing how to “take advantage of the system for your own benefit” but we are catching up; and we are learning from you and will certainly overcome this advantage in such a rapid fashion your head will spin!
Instead of spreading lies and poisoning your youth and their future with hatred, you should focus your efforts on improving democracy in your home country Armenia. I just saw CNN a few minutes ago interview an Armenian female witness who said “massacres are being committed in Yerevan as Police are firing on innocent unarmed protestors” but are we surprised? This is not the first time Armenian radicals did this, and will not be the last; and as long as Armenians focus on “spreading the seeds of hatred by twisting the truth” they will continue to be victims and victimizers for decades to come! I truly hope these reports coming out of Yerevan are not true!
Barry Jacobs:
If Hitler were alive today (God Forbid), he would give you the "thumbs up" for supporting his "Masterplan" (Remember his comment regarding the annihilation of the Armenians as encouraging words preceding the Jewish Holocaust). Any Jewish individual who "can be bought" to deny the Armenian Genocide, condones the Holocaust. I have worked for the Jewish Federation for several years, and some of my closest friends are Jewish. I always speak up against people who malign the Jews unjustly, but people like you make my position very difficult. I would also expect that people in your position would have more sense and integrity than you have displayed. When a Gentile, raises questions about the Armenian Genocide, I see it as a teaching opportunity, but when a Jew joins the deniers and accuses Armenians of being perpetrators, I see a complete and hopeless disintegration and corruption of the human soul. Still trying to believe that there may be a grain of decency in you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your knowledge of history is limited — so I'll try to educate you! The German military during WWI, supported the Turkish government in their Masterplan to exterminate the Armenians, in order to gain access to the East, North and South (hopefully, you will be able to find more detailed information on your own, if you care), because our ancestral homeland was in a geopolitical strategic region. The German chancellor called us "the Jews of Turkey" (interesting parallel – hah!). Some of the young German soldiers who "practiced" on the Armenians became the very Nazi officers, who with a rich genocidal porfolio, carried out Hitler's Masterplan.
Barry Jacobs, you do not represent the opinion of the Jewish community! The Jewish people have been some of our greatest and effective supporters. S H A M E O N y o u! Because of you and the likes of you, I feel deep sorrow for the very kind, caring, humane, decent and clear-thinking Jews who have to share their cultural and religous heritage with you and the likes of you. On Yom Kippur, spend a day thinking as to when and where you lost your Jewishness and try to find it back by asking for "Armenian Holocaust" and "Jewish Genocide" survivors and descendents, and all other victims of inhumanity for forgiveness.
Thank you dear Dr.Katz
I,m a grandchild of survival of Armenian genocide.And I know that world is mostly like you not like Barry Jacobs.People like him will sale his on mother for money not only Armenians.And its very sad that so many people are spending time for …
Thank youfrom All of US
Dear Haig,
Indeed, it is true that the Jews were heavily suppressed in Turkey in 1950th. It is also true that they hardly ever go openly against something that may harm their way of life. I've already reminded here that all this ADL/AJC dirty game is orchestrated by the Turkish leaders who made it clear that unless Israel and influential American Jews will resist in all possible ways Genocide's recognition by the U.S., the life of Turkish Jews will be very miserable. You see, Haig, what happens here is Just the way to let the steam go – nothing else. I suggested to start an opened petition against His Evilness Jacobs – but the Jewish participants of this discussion pretend as if they haven't heard anything. Several times I mentioned that only 5 people of Jewish nationality signed petition against their "brother-Jew" who cynically denies Genocide – and yet again not a single Jewish signature appeared on the list. You see, Haig, they like to talk but they don't like to act – unless it may hurt their brothers or their pockets.I know it sounds sad – but unfortunately I have a handful of evidence indicating that my assumption is right. So, here is what I see happening: the Turkish Jews will probably be left alone – for a while – at expense of the Genocide recognition. But, guess what – the history tends to repeat itself and who knows what may come to the heads of the next generation of Turkish leaders?…
Any Jewish people here with the guts to act? Then show it:
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
Dear Anonymous Turkish denialist,
When I was about to start my message, I was thinking to address you as the "Turkish denialist" but then decided not to do that since not all Turkish people are the same – as not all Jews or Armenians. People like you perfected their twisted minds in attempts to deny obvious: Turkish military machine slaughtered millions of Armenians – period. You are talking about the "first Prime Minister of the newly established Armenian Republic (1918)" – how stupid you think we are here? Every educated person knows that it was a newly installed communist regime which was happily opening its dirty mouth against the Armenian freedom fighters and was ready to lean on the shoulder of anybody who will help them against Armenian democratic forces – including Turkish killers. People like you have no shame and to discuss anything with people like you is absolutely pointless since you have no heart and your ears cannot hear anything except for what was implanted into your little brains. Don't even make me start talking about Armenian territories being under Turkey and Armenian historical and cultural heritage being systematically destroyed! We must remember horrors of all political manslaughters – not to make people of countries like Turkey, Germany, etc. to feel guilty but to make sure that these crimes will never happen again – that is one of the major reasons. Another reason for remembering and acknowledging Genocide is to pay respect to its victims. Yes, my dear Anonymous Turk, when innocent children, women and elderly are killed and their bones are spread all over your country – the least you can do is to say: "I am sorry for the deeds of my ancestors, I am not like that and I am grieving together with you!" Is that too much to ask for?! But I guess, to say so, one must be a decent person and has to have guts – and apparently you are not this kind of individual. When I read someone's personal note which says that of his mother's family of 45 only 5 survived 1915 – I don't picture 40 soldiers being killed on the battle field – I see women, children and elderly being sadistically slaughtered, starved to death, exhausted in pointless relocation – and this is enough evidence for me to say that the Turkish military machine killed millions of innocent people.
Dear Mr. Anonymous Turk,
I have friends of Turkish, Armenian Turkish, and Jewish origin too.
My Turkish friends were shocked when they first learned about the Armenian Genocide, you know why…. because they never learned about it in their schools, in Turkey! They were astonished! They actually chose to educate themselves from different sources and now believe that there was an Armenian Genocide. They came to the conclusion that Turkey has something to hide that is the only reason it refuses to talk about the Genocide.
Last year, the Turkish government attempted to set up debates about the Armenian Genocide around April 24th and brought in Turkish Diplomats and Armenians from Turkey to be in the Debate. They situated themselves in the Universities in US and advertised that it was sponsored by Armenian Organizations and the Diocese. It turned around that they never informed any Armenian Organizations and the Dioceses. And they also forgot to mention that if those Armenians, part of the debate, who were brought in from Turkey, could not disagree with the Turkish Diplomats because they will be persecuted when they go back to Turkey. IN TURKEY IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO ACCEPT ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, IF A PERSON DOES THEN EITHER THEY ARE JAILED OR KILLED (example: Hrant Dink). And this is free speech for Turkey, this is what democracy is for Turkey, and this is how confident Turkey is of their history and truth.
Dear Mr. Anonymous Turk…. it is interesting that Armenians want peace but you are trying to create hate. You are asking Jews to hate Armenians, because we are somehow competing for the name Holocaust and Genocide. It is interesting how you insult the human sense. You are arrogant enough to think that Jews and Armenians are stupid and do not understand that you are trying to lead us on, you are being deceitful (but then that's all that you have learned in Turkish schools). You are actually trying to take people's attention from the actual topic. An intelligent individual understands that you are trying to hide something by diverting people's attention.
I do have to give Turkey credit for they are intelligent enough to understand human psychology & the power of money, and using that to their advantage of erasing Armenians from this earth.
Dear Mr. Anonymous Turk, ask this yourself…
How does extinction come about? How did Holocaust came about? How did Genocide came about? How did
massacres came about? How did wars came about? How did murders came
about? How did hate come about? How did jealousy came about? How did
selfishness came about?
Hint, hint:They build on each other.
And if we don't stop it, who will? You?
With all my love,
Mary
It looks like the roaches are getting lazy . . . or slow. It usually doesn't take 114 posts before they arrive with their canned Genocide Denial speeches. Or maybe it's just that they are overworked these days, what with all the rational discussions on the blogosphere regarding the Armenian Genocide.
Armenian Terror Organizations, ASALA, JCAG, and others killed 42 Turkish diplomats and countless passer-bys including non-turks.
Futher, on NBC's Dateline, past ANCA president's Mourad Topalian's link to terror organization was clearly proven. Tons fo dinamites were found in a storage room rented by him.
They couldn't prove in the Malta trials, they couldn't sway public opinion by killing people, now fanatic Armenians are trying to change the history by paying politicians.
Shame on decent Armenians who are not objecting against this.
I read all of the posts with amazement. As a Turkish-American with numerous Turkish-Armenian and Turkish-Jewish friends; I am saddened and astonished by the "Armenian genocide industry's" insistence on "convincing the world of genocide at all costs" approach which has silenced professors, writers, researchers who disagreed with their "conclusion of these tragic events" by bombing their officers, disrupting their classes, threatening their lives…etc to a point where very few people dare to oppose this "powerful genocide industry machine".The Jewish community has suffered tremendously, and has made use of the legal system to punish those responsible for the Holocaust and atrocities committed against them; why won't the Armenians use the international legal system and other means available to them? What are they afraid of? What do they have to hide?We are Americans, we believe in "due process" don't we? If indeed the Armenians have "overwhelming evidence" against Turkey; then they should be the first to want justice, not the other way around.The Turkish government has proposed a "Joint Historical Commission" made up of historians from Turkey, Armenia and third parties who want to help to research the Archives of the Ottoman Empire, Armenia and the countries involved in the region such as the US, Russia, Germany, France, England..etcThe Ottoman Archives are open, and not only are they open, but the millions of documents in the archives are being posted online for the world to view; why can't the Armenians open their archives as well? How about the Dashnak archives in Boston-why can't researchers go to research these archives?Unfortunately, the Armenians have been very good at fooling the world by glorifying the terrible suffering of the Armenians in 1915; but they are not the only ones to suffer during those tragic times. Turkish Muslims, Turkish-Armenians and Kurds died tragically during those times and although Turkey and the Turkish public recognizes the Armenian suffering (and I am not going to play the numbers game); I am yet to see a single reference by Armenians of the tragedy that befell upon the Muslim Turks and Kurds at the hands of the Armenian bands!Finally, Armenians like to "compare their tragedy to the Holocaust" or even try to top it by claiming it was the "first genocide of the century", yet how do they explain that nothing happened to Armenians in cities where civil war and Armenian attacks did not happen such as Istanbul, Izmir..etc etc? How else do they explain the contradictory nature of their statement that says it was a "systematic order to kill all of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" yet the relocation of Armenians only happened in the Eastern part near Russia where Armenians rose up against their government and backed the invading Russians? Wouldn’t this be called treason? If we’re comparing apples with apples, can they please tell me where did Hitler “leave Jews alone” under Nazi occupation? As far as I remember, he monstrously massacred millions of Jews in every inch of land he had control of; and not just “parts of it”!The first Prime Minister of the newly established Armenian Republic (1918) H. Katchaznouni said at the Convention of foreign branches of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, convened in 1923 in Bucharest that "Armenians Dashnak's started to form bands against the Ottoman Empire as early as 1914, before the Ottomans even entered WW1, to help Russia and its desire to occupy Ottoman lands". These bands would eventually wreak havoc in the east and massacre hundreds of thousands of Muslim children, women, and elderly which would start the tragedy that befell them afterwards. Thus, unlike what the Armenians would like the world to believe, this was not a "one sided order to eliminate a group of people" but rather a civil war that caused the lives of thousands of innocent people on all sides.Certainly, there is a lot to be learned, and a lot to be discovered; and the method to use is not in the halls of Congress nor in Parliaments where the "strongly represented" wins and not necessarily the "rightful one"; but rather by historians and researchers who can objectively look at all of the documents and evidence and not just the "selected few".Certainly there is much we don't know about this unfortunate tragedy, but one thing we know, this was not a "genocide" as the Armenians would like the world to believe-and to call it that is an insult to all of the Holocaust victims whose suffering has undoubtedly been proven beyond any doubt; which is far from it in the Armenians' case!Certainly, the Joint Historical Commission is an offer all those with “good intentions to resolve this tragedy” should encourage and support. Unfortunately, this is yet another proof that the Armenians and their supporters have agendas other than the “discovery of truth” and “punishment that fits the crime” and their true colors are becoming noticeable every passing day!
Kudos to Mr. Jacobs for having the courage to speak out, when many others are either afraid or fooled!
I am following this discussion for already few days: at first posting anonymously, then with my name signed and finally having account established – cudos to Joey Kurtzman and all respected members of this discussion group which impresses me more than some of the Armenian forums dedicated to Genocide and heavily infiltrated by Turkish "activists".
Of course, I came to this discussion with my own agenda – that is to spread the word about recently initiated petition against highly sophisticated Professor of Medicine of Jewish nationality who denies Genocide. I spread the word about this initiative as wide as I could, including all honest people I am acquainted with, regardless of their religion or nationality. In just three days since this petition was launched, it is already signed by more than 200 people: http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
Interestingly enough, none of my Jewish friends signed it, and I can so far recognize no more than 4 Jewish names on it – not the result one would expect to see based on the positive tone of the discussion we have here.
The above made me think that there are, perhaps, several "levels" of sincerity. I almost picture these Jewish friends of mine thinking: "okay, this evil person is truly bad, but he is still one of us, so we'd rather not say anything… ." I am sure you know exactly what I am talking about: for instance, it is not considered a bad think when people of the same ethnic or social group are making rather controversial jokes about themselves – but God forbid if the outsider will do the same!
If this is true, it is rather cynical and makes me feel very sad. I wish I see more Jewish names on this petition: there is a HUGE difference between TALKING and ACTING.
Perhaps, it is not a bad idea to start an open letter against Monsignor Jacobs? Anybody here wants to take a lead? I will gladly second! The example of how to do it is already there:
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
Thank u for your comments. It is sad that a people (The Jews) with whom the Armenians share a common and sad past, victims of bias and prejudice, have in some instances sacrificed their principles to support an alliance with Turkey.
The Jews themselves were victims of Turkish anger in the early 1950s.
We hope that the Jewish community will rise to the challemge and urge their organizations to rally to the support of Armenians, and to the AJC, we state- Hitler would be so proud of you, after all who remembers the Armenians, the people God Forgot.
Unfortunately the Turks and the Azeri's are well in progress from erasing us from the history….
1. In Turkey, the old Armenian ruins have signs on them indicating that they were left from Persia and etc. (and no word about that Armenians and build the city or the building).
2. Some history channels that talk about Turkey, I have already noticed about 3 history films where it was showing the map of middle east(Turkey,ect.) and central asia(Armenia). It had Turkey, Georgia, Azerbedzan, Iran, the 2 seas – BUT NO ARMENIA! (Can you imagine watching a documentary made on Canada and on the map they forgot to draw borders and indicated US is its neighboring country??????)
3. History Books in Turkey, do not have any indication of Armenian genocide, and they will kill you and/or imprison you if you believe in the existence of Armenian Genocide. They teach their children that Armenians killed the Turks, and they've built a statue with an inscription of "Armenians killed 1.5 million Turks in 1915." (Is this what we call DEMOCRACY? American Politicians need to carefully define what is democracy to Turkey and what is democracy to America, unless America does not believe in freedom of speech or the bill of rights!)
4. Religious Shows. I have already seen 2 American films made about the old testament, and the host visited different parts of the world that was mentioned in the Bible. When it was the turn to talk about Noah's ark they omitted the word Armenia from the quotes. (In the old testament it says that Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat in Armenia but the host said, Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat that is located in modern Turkey.)
4a. A tangent point to: "Armenian Genocide happened over 90 years ago, it happened so long ago, who cares." Well, I would ask Mr. Jacobs, the Old testament was written so long ago, why do you believe in it or think that there is an ounce of truth in there it all happened so long ago.
5 . Museums. I have yet to see a museum in America that commemorates the Armenian Genocide. But if you go to Africa, to Rwanda, half of their museum is dedicated to the Armenian Genocide. That inspires me, they see hope in us. I am ashamed as an Armenian that I have not been able to stop Genocides!
6. In my European History Class back in high school (10th grade), US. I was surprised and pleased that it had noted in one sentence about the "massacre of the Armenians." At the end of the class, when a group of us were talking to the teacher, I said "did you know that is wrong, it wasn't a massacre it was a genocide." His entire
demeanor changed and with an angry voice he told me that "I need to feel lucky that it's even mentioned!"
7. In my elementary school (5th grade). I chose not to attend school on April 24th. The next day, my teacher told me that it was wrong of me to miss school and that she had passed out presents to the other students on that day, and because I chose not to attend in remembrance of April 24th, I will not receive the gift. (About a month later she gave gift to me and my friend, it was a stupid coloring book, I always wondered if she did that b/c she remembered the bill of rights!!)
If we allow the Armenian Genocide to be forgotten, then we are all hypocrites of wanting and fighting for human rights.
In the long run, Mr. Jacob's calculus on when to acknowledge and when to ignore Genocide puts all of mankind at risk, and it certainly puts at risk the memory of his ancestors' suffering. Moreover, it puts the Jewish and Armenian people particularly at risk for different reasons. It puts the Jewish people at risk everywhere in the world, because there appears to be so much envy and resentment, both historical and contemporary, against the Jewish people. Even in this forum, so many of the threads are filled with anti-semitic, Nazi-like hate speech. And BTW, that envy and resentment is nowhere more open and apparent than in Turkey. Thus, I don't think it is in the Jewish people's best interest to downplay or ignore any Genocide.
For the Armenians, this Jacobian attitude is dangerous for another reason. Armenians are a small community with a low profile. Few know we exist, and nobody really envies us or uses us as a scapegoat for the ills of the world. Thus, we are relatively safe throughout the world . . . except in our own neighborhood. That's because our immediate neighbors are Genocidal and view us as parasites. Given the opportunity and freedom, few Armenians have any doubt that the Turks and Azeris would erase Armenia and its history from the map entirely and finish the job they started in 1915. This Jacobian attitude gives the Turks and Azeris the confidence, I'm sure, to dream about such an unholy opportunity.
Basically, Mr. Barry Jacobs is telling the world that the Armenian Genocide happened so long ago, that the Armenian genocide victims are not worthy of acknowledgment — As if to suggest: The early bird gets the worm… We did, you don't… Better luck next time.
Mr. Jacobs, since when has this "Jewish moral yardstick" shrunk in size with passage of time? Is it conceivable that you have two separate "moral yardsticks" of different lengths of your own making? Does it occur to you that, with one swipe, you are doing a good job in bringing shame and disgrace on every surviving Jew or Armenian in four corners of the world?
Mr. Jacobs, perhaps you can tell us here, today, so that Jewcy readers can fully understand exactly the number of years needed to make the qualifying round for justice in the "Genocide industry" these days. Please, educate us! Because, if you don't, you will leave the door wide open for speculations by friends and foes alike. Here is one I heard the other day: Is it fair to assume that perhaps Ahmadinejad's denial of the holocaust is open season, and well within the window of "Jacobian math'odology" ? Afterall, Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial –unlike Mr Jacob's Armenian Genocide denial — has not been as long ago as the Armenian Genocide. It is very important for all of us to know what your thoughts are on this, for there are other genocides taking place right now, as we speak, and the Jewcy readers are very much eager to share your wisdom.
Indeed, I am confident when saying that Monsignor Jacobs does not speak on behalf the American Jewish people – not all of them. However, he does speak on behalf of the organization he represents. HUMAN moral was never lost – that is why there are still honest people who acknowledge all these politically-driven manslaughters. However, let us not to forget that there is nothing dirtier in the world than politics. I would like to second the message which says that "DENYING a crime is just as horrible as COMMITTING one".
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
Does he realize what complete NONSENSE he is talking about. Long time ago? What does the time have to do with a crime. Are not authorities punishing WWII criminals until now for what they did 65 years ago? So why should a crime committed 95 years ago be pardoned? Or else, does this mean that in 2040 we are going to deny the Jewish holocaust because it was "such a long time ago?" How much did you get from the Turkish government, Mr. Jacobs? How much do you usually charge for your soul? Individuals like yourself are the reason for what is happening now in Darfur. You are a "passive mass-murderer." It's good I have enough Jewish friends to believe that you are expressing anything BUT the opinion of the American Jews. Don't disgrace your own race and history, Mr. Jacobs.
It is disheartening to see someone like Mr. Jacobs speak from the name of the American Jewish community. I refuse to believe that his point expresses the general belief of the American Jewish people, many of whom have themselves endured the horror of mass slaughter later in the century (I believe that the Jewish holocaust was partly conditioned by the total ignorance and rejection of the Armenian one by the International Community). And if it does, than I am forced to conclude that human morale has been lost somewhere in the ashes of the victims who perished in the desert in 1915. DENYING a crime is just as horrible as COMMITTING one, Mr. Jacobs. It is too bad that the "opinion" of such a morally and aesthetically brilliant, and highly intellectual community is expressed by such a moral mediocrity.
Well one day, Hitler (a psychotic idiot) decided that Jews need to be vanished from this world. And he came up with a law that said "kill Jews that is the most patriotic thing to do and it's the law." Well some shared his believe (they must of been on the same pill as hitler), other wanted to live, hence adhered to his law, and others were ignorant (young and/or stupid). THEY BEGAN TO KILL the JEWS B/C THE LAW and THEIR LEADER SAID YOU NEED TO KILL JEWS.
Armenian Genocide and other genocides… A leader made a law that said "you need to kill the Armenians, because it's the law and plus you'll end up w/ 40 virgins". So turks and kurds killed the Armenians.
As I was watching some documentaries, the germans and kurds had one common answer as to why they killed. Their answer was: They killed b/c they were TOLD to do it, IT WAS THE LAW, it was not wrong. we didn't know any better, we were young, we were scared. They did it b/c their LEADER told them to do it, so it must be right.
WELL I tell you this, NOW you are an intelligent and hopefully educated individual. So when A LEADER SAYS: go kill someone, it's ok give the killer some slack, who care about those humanS, I know best I am your leader. I SURELY HOPE YOU WON'T COMMIT THE SAME SIN AS THE GERMANS AND THE TURKS!
Have the right to think on your own and judge on your own and not what a LEADER wants. These LEADERS did what was good for them and a small circle of their friends, and because of greed and disrespect to human life.
STOP THE CYCLE! A government or an organization is what we make it to be, don't forget your individual power and your influence on the government and the organizations! They are who they are either because of a monopoly they have created or because YOU HAVE shaped it to be what it is. REMEMBER YOUR POWER AND USE IT TO GOOD!
Shall i cry or laugh! If you get your education and facts from YouTube, you ding-dong! Read a book! A history book! Do a research in books!
If I placed in a YouTube… that the Sun is made of Worms… Are you telling me that you will go and spread that news to all everyone without actually researching!?!
3 letters….WOW!
Best Regards,
An Armenian
"The AJC's and ADL's behavior is a reflection of what their membership will tolerate."
Hmmm…. Not quite true.. How should I say it… Based on how Pilisopa said it, one may assume that the AJC and ADL (the organizations' leaders?) are testing their members on how tolerate they are. This is not true. Both organizations, based on their deeds, are absolutely immoral, and, as a result, it is true for all their members. However, should the individual consdier him/herself as a moral person, s/he cannot be a member of these organizations. You see, we cannot choose our Motherlands, but we can choose the groups and organizations we want to be affiliated with.
Larry,
I would allow myself to slightly disagree with you: if certain individuals are denying Genocide while speaking on behalf of certain institutions (which means to me that they in fact are stating these institutions' official position) – then these institutions cannot be considered as "respectable" – neither "otherwise", nor in any other way – period.
The Armenian genocide is an undeniable historical fact, well documented by many sources and acknowledged by several governments.
For politicians or individuals to deny this historical fact, for short term political gain, is a loss in credibility and disbilief in the very values they try to advocate. They bring no credit to the otherwise respectable institutions they represent.
Whoever thinks for one minute that Barry Jacobs represents the Jewish people as he claims is completely misinformend and misguided. As a first generation American Jew whose parents both were fortunate enough to escape Nazi Germany, I can tell you first hand the the genocide of the Armenian people is completey unacceptable! Barry Jacobs claiming that he repesents the Jewish people is both a joke and an embarrassment to the Jewish people. The only person who believes Barry Jacobs is Barry Jacobs himself! What is truly sad is that there is at least one person in the world i.e. Barry Jacbos, who feels the Armenian genocide is acceptable. That fact is both amazing and sad at the same time.
Mr. Jacobs! Your words and actions defy the values taught by the Torah. (Whether or not you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, the truth is that the modern State of Israel owes its existence to the Torah.) Biblical prophets called the actions of leaders like you an abomination. Because of leaders like you, for centuries your people have suffered the abomination of desolation. For the sake of the righteous, therefore, stand for the truth, or step down!
I would sign under every word that Anoosh said.It has nothing to do with honesty, dignity, moral etc. – it is all about politics. As for people denying political manslaughters (Genocide, Holocaust, etc.) – I am pretty sure they will always find what to say – as long as they will have some music to dance and as long as their puppeteers will continue pulling the strings.
When in 1933 Hitler took over Germany, he was seen as an prospective ally because he was going to counter the Communists. On it's own, Turkey cannot get off the merry go round of denialiast propaganda and it's closest allies are feeding this frenzy.
Some People use Military allliances and Geopolitics as political rational to substantiate their reasoning.
In doing so, Are we not putting our own Humanity in jeopardy when we allow politics to overcome Morality 101 TRUTH and our soul?
In that case, Why not start to teach children POLITICS instead of Right from Wrong and let's see how far we get?
They are pretty active, because in addition to visiting the Armenian websites, they are sending representatives from the American Nazi party to send their message of blaming the Jews for the Armenian genocide to speak to Armenian churches. I understand one of them spoke at an Armenian church in Hollywood. Everyone here can read what lies they are spreading. I hope the Armenian churches will not allow these people to speak at their churches and will denounce them.
In general, there is a large campaign of antisemitism sponsored by the muslim countries. In Turkey, there are even many books written, looking for crytoJews in the govt. I think xenophobic people have an obsession seeing conspiracies and the enemy in "foreign" people who live among them. This kind of antisemitism exists in Turkey.
I have two points with respect to the comment above. First- while I deplore the Turks who frequent the internet simply to stir up trouble, what is truly maddening is that many of these ignorant individuals have been brainwashed into honestly believing the lies they spew. When Turkish law makes it a crime punishable by imprisonment to even mention the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, when individuals like Orhan Pamuk and the murdered Hrant Dink are prosecuted under that law, when entire Armenian towns are left to decompose in Turkey as if they never existed, when the Turkish government makes every effort to erase history…how will the Turkish citizenry know what to believe?
Secondly, I am so deeply saddened that Turkey and its ignorant and uninformed citizenry are able to get away with their lies and are not once and for all silenced by worldwide condemnation. When individuals like Abe Foxman, Barry Jacobs, President Bush, Condy Rice and so many others are basically afraid to acknowledge the truth because they themselves don't want to wake up the sleeping giant in Turkey, trouble is coming.
Let's envision a time in the future when Iran has pushed foward on its development of nuclear weapons and is still ruled by the madman Ahmindinijad. The US, which has been weakended considerably by the Iraq debacle, is powerless to stop his incursions into Israel. In the meantime, Iran continues to push its campaign to deny the truth about the Holocaust. "It was so long ago", they say. "We must study the record." "Let's leave that to the historians." Internationally, the power balance has shifted and the US is afraid to anger powerful Iran and its Arab allies.
Jews feel like they are fighting on all fronts. They fight those who want to rewrite their history with respect to the Holocaust. "Justice" they shout. "Think about about our murdered ancestors!" they scream. "What about the survivors??" they write. They also fight for Israel, the homeland. The one place this diasporan people can go and feel like they are home. Yet the world doesn't listen. Strategic relationships, fear, the threat of World War III rule the day.
You may or may not think that scenerio is far-fetched. European Jews certainly never thought that they would be slaughtered like sheep on such a devastating and massive scale during the Holocaust. But, why shouldn't they have thought it could happen to them. It had already happened and is still happening to the Armenians.
I wonder what Messrs. Foxman and Jacobs would say then?
I would allow myself to second what Joseph said: it is a very well
known practice of Turkish activists to infiltrate web sites and to act
as if they represent your opponent. It happened many times on several
Armenian forums that Turks were acting as Armenians or representatives
of other nationalities, trying to ignite the flame of hate. However, in
all these cases technical services were able to trace the authors'
computers as located in Turkey or to the regions in the world with high
Turkish population. Please, do not get me wrong: not all Turkish people
are evil – as not all Armenian or Jewish people are good. However, when
you see here messages full of hate and bad language showing no respect
to opponent – most likely they are coming from these Turkish
"activists" who are following the old tactics of "divide and concur".
Ani,
I am not sure what Hitler would say now but this is what he said then: "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" (August 22, 1939).
You are such an ignorant thug! Azerbaijanis are not "ethnics" in Karabagh. Pick up a history book, idiot, and you'll find out that Karabagh has been ethnically Armenian for centuries!
You are a shame to your country and to the Jews worldwide!
In my humble opinion, there are certain things our species should NEVER forget – in order for them not to happen again, and all political massacres belong to these things – regardless of the manslaughter that took place in 1915th or 1940th. It was Hitler who said that nobody remembers Genocide – please do not make yourself look like this evil person.
DENY THE GERMANS COMMITTED THE GENOCIDE-they are still suing. We know better and who needs their jerks to endorce use anyway. theyt have too much clout and they create the hatred against them by being the idiots to get their own recognition. no wonder the arabs wantr them out. we do too. THat is the jerks that use their influence to endorce their own crap and do not forget. many of them made money on their own getting killed. we are at war cuz of their attitude and we should let them fight on their own. we do nto need them
It is pointless to comment on the issue itself, as I cannot add anything new — Honorable Joey Kurtzman and Aram Hamparian said it well.
I, however, would like to comment on the tactics of some Turks on this
site. Many of them left amoral comments and did not even sign their
names under those comments, which is cowardly, something that can be
prescribed exclusively to Turks.
Also, pointing out the obvious, B. Jacobs is a pig and does NOT represent the Jewish community. He speaks for Turks and himself.
Jews are honorable people, decent people, and no one on this planet understands us better than Jews.
No such things exist. What happened in Karabakh is a completely unrelated matter. That issue is still prevalent, in which Armenians have a legitimate claim on the land which is rightfully theirs with a majority Armenian community at the time. Do your research before posting slanderous information.
As for the topic, I believe we must stand up as a part of ADL and do just as you say Mr. Jacobs. I for one will do so and will attend the March 6th conference at UCLA to voice my opinion.
Bob,
Please consider joining an effort in our fight against the Genocide denialists and to spread the word about it:
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
You mean in the liberation of Karabakh from Azerbaijan (Turkey Jr.). Karabakh was and is part of the Armenian Homeland where 95% of the public was and is Armenian. And verify your misinformed statistics… There were more Armenians killed in the Karabakh conflict than Azerbaijanis and even then, those numbers (under 200,000) pale in comparison of 1,500,000 Armenians slaughtered in the Armenian Genocide by Turkish government.
Get real — Azerbaijan's government has vowed to erase Armenia from the map. Sound familiar? The Turkish Government in 1915 proclaimed Jihad against all Christians. My grandfather was there when Talat Pasha announced this policy. The current Turkish and Azerbaijani governments' blockade against Armenia is simply a continuation of this policy. Your are seriously misinformed, and have confused self preservation with offensive behavior. If you are right, then Isreal had no justification to invade Lebanon, or take Gaza or the West Bank. If you are right, then there is no difference between the "Berlin" wall Isreal has erected around Palestinian territories and the Turkish/Azeri blockade of Armenia. But the bottom line is this, thanks to the past actions of the JDL, Barry Jacobs and his ilk, the relevance of the Genocide resolution pending in Congress is lost. The fact is that hundreds of thousands of Christians in Iraq (mostly Armenians) have been "ethnically cleansed" (What a stupid euphemism for genocide) since the American invasion of Iraq. Genocide of Armenians has occurred in this century too, right under our noses.
Why is it Ok to deny the genocide of Christians Armenians and not Ok to deny the Holocaust?
One happened less than 70 years ago and the other less than 100 years ago.
Now as many will project your hate and lies on me, I say bring it on. It is not OK to deny either. And to give in to Turkey and its threats is to give in to terrorism. These events happened and for those who will defend the act of denial are no deferent than those who deny the fact we can never compromise with evil as we will lose the backing of God and our souls.
Let me put this in to perspective for my fellow Republicans and Democrats and Jews and Christians who are bowing down to Turkey. It is like the saying about the left. When two Lib’s’ walking past and see a man attacking a women they say “he needs help” Or to deny this is like saying we can not win the war in Iraq with out the help of Turkey. To deny this is to go back to the days when we would help evil dictators on the basis of the lesser of two evils just as was the case of Nazi which the Kennedy’s loved. Was this right then and is it now? NO. And when we claimed to go after the head of the snake or evil we had better make sure our own house is clean. And today it is not and the Jewish lobby is fighting on the side of this very evil act and denying the ties and training ground of the holocaust as Germany was in on this as well as the Islamic groups that grew into the Muslim Brotherhood. One more thing about the fear tactics of our leaders, which is the lefts tactics to use fear to control us all for their own power, this is no different then what brought the many genocides of the past and the future. To say we can not win with out Turkey is saying we are weak which is what the left says every day and we need the world to defend us which is a lie.
Now for those on the left you want to make friends with Syria and Iran and the Jewish groups wish to love Turkey and they all Muslims that all do and always will want us dead and to trust any is pure blindness on our part. We must win the war and never compromise with any of them. And never deny such unjust actions of Genocide past or present.
Now to give some quotes from our past great leaders.
After WW I former president Theodor Roosevelt berated (Woodrow Wilson the beloved fascist of Mussolini) for his refusal to take action to stop the genocide, “ The Armenian massacre’ “ was the greatest crime of war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it”. The Harvard College Library.
Today we see this happening all over again by surrendering our just and morals and gives us no right to fight any evil if we turn our head to one and attack another. This is called hypocrisy and to be a part of this evil!
USA ambassador Henry Morgenthau in a telegram July 16th 1915 “A campaign of race extermination “ against the Armenians. National Archives, State Department
Turkey has fought to bury this black page of history and our leaders are dipping their hands in this blood of Christians today. I ask that every Republican and Democrat Jew and Christian unite for once in this our history that is being made today. By sharing these facts and looking into them for your self’s. Than call the news media and politicians and tell them to support HR 106 and condemn the groups who protect this evil lie.
We do not want the blood of innocent people on our hands. For the right it is the belief in God and for the left it is your claim that you care.
Unite today and send a message to congress if they deny this they deny the Holocaust and both are wrong.
And tell every one not to sell out the USA and Gods word. To cave in to Turkey and bury this evil is to dip your hands and soul in the blood of innocent Christians and side with Islam that is to convert us all or enslave and kill us.
Now one last word to ANCA as I have worked with them on the issue of HR 106 only to find out they have done the same as they blame truthfully of the ADL and the other Jewish groups of caving in to the money of Turkey by selling out one of their own in the actions of a innocent man named Davit Zarganyan who was arrested on July 4th in Iowa selling parody cards for an Obama supporter and was arrested under false lies and used by Obama’s people to get free air time on a slow news day. And this is the same thing ANCA is doing as the ADL and others. They all come to the table of the al mighty dollar and no matter who has it they will do the dirty deeds of selling out all innocents.
America wake up and make each stand for right or better yet get rid of all of them and have your voice heard as God will do one day no one but you can speak but you for you.
Shame on ANCA for doing the same thing they blame as both are wrong. And to the Muslims and supporters of Obama think why no Muslims have pet a fatwa on him for his so called conversion?
As I have noticed on this forum, as with many Armenian forums, it is quite often Turkish impostors trying to inhibit and disrupt the commentary when it relates to the Armenian Genocide by make crude, anti-semitic comments. I hope you can all see through this.
Thanks for keeping this topic going Jewcy. And to the few Anti-Semitic posters here, shame on you.
Barry Jacobs is quick to sellout moral interests for geopolitical ones. He is an embarrassment to our people. US Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau, a Jew and an employee of the US State Department was one of the loudest voices demanding US action in light of the Genocide that he was witnessing against the Armenians in the early 1900's. Morgenthau didn't hide behind "geopolitical" excuses and euphemisms then and we shouldn't now. We Jews ought to honor the memory of our own 6 million ancestors by fighting against genocide and genocide denial wherever and whenever it be.
Jews sprang forward and flowered in a humanistic culture. Barry Jacobs is not representative of Jewry. He is atypical as a Jew. He is a weak man without a moral compas interested in playing monstrous games with monsters. He wants to sit at their table. He and those like him will one day find themselves on the table.
And deniers should be charged as criminals under the law
What did Hitler say before he began the holocaust and genocide of the Jews? "No one remembers the Armenians." What did Benjamin Franklin say in 1775? "We must hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately."
"
To bad Nazi did not finish all of you
I agree with you and believe you that there are Jewish people on all sides of this issue, and there is no one Jewish monolithic opinion. However, if a prominent Armenian from a prominent Armenian organization came out and said the sames things about the Holocaust as this Jacobs fellow has said about the Armenian Genocide, I can assure you he would be fired the following day. Now let's see what happens to Jacobs for denying the Armenian Genocide. Will he be shunned; will he be reprimanded; or will he continue with business as usual. We'll see.
As for the Kurds, your argument is definitely a red herring. The Armenian Genocide has been studied to exhaustion. On the contrary, I have never heard nor read anything from any historian who says that the Kurdish experience in Turkey amounts to a Genocide. If you are aware of material to the contrary, please let me know, and I will certainly read it.
Let's not get carried away. There is anti-semitism in the Armenian community and in Armenia. You're not fooling Jewish people by saying there isn't any anti-semitism. They know better than we do where there is and where there isn't anti-semitism. Actually, I'm certain they know anti-semitism exists almost everywhere. But I would agree that anti-semitism is not pervasive in the Armenian community, and it doesn't appear to be so in Armenia either. Moreover, I would also go so far as to say that the majority of Armenians identify closely with the Jewish people and admire those Jewish "stereotypes" that were once so repugnant to blue-blooded Europeans. In fact, Armenians adopted those stereotypes long ago. Just look at the Armenians in Jerusalem. Ask them who they would want to be with if Jerusalem is split between the Jews and the Arabs; it won't take more than a second to hear your answer even despite the occasional spitting they have to endure from the Orthodox Jews. Of all the western oriented peoples in this world, I would say that the Armenians are and have always been the least threatening to the Jewish people for the reasons stated above. Another reason for that is because like the Jews, the Armenian people do not seek to change others into "Armenians"; their main desire is and has always been to be left alone. If Armenians and Jews were the only people in this world, there would be no wars between them, because they would be too busy working, making money, and creating things, and neither would try to change the other. That's my 2 cents.
that will be his ironic excuse next I suppose? I find it funny that the right-wing, who always talk about moral absolutes etc, waffled on the Armenian genocide issue for fear of "offending our great friends the Turks" (who are now invading Iraq!).
What absolute hypocrisy on all sides — the Jewish orgs that are also waffling, the US right-wingers who caved in, and ultimately the Turks who find it so hard to admit and come to grips. I guess they need to take some lessons from Germany.
jews deny the AG because evil demonik devil jews are responsible for AG. jews have been a cancer to this planet from the day of their conception. jews are responsible for every major WAR on this planet for the past 2000 yrs, they are responsible for all GENOCIDES. even for their SO-CALLED HOAXocaust. jews deny the AG, therefore i DENY their made-up HOAXacaust. becase they created their own HOAXocaust to take over the world, to establish their state of EVILS-rael, and to KEEP their strangle-hold on this planet. it is written in their SATANIC bible (THE TALMUD) jews are the HUMAN, while the NON-jews (the gentiles) are the cattle that are in human form exist to help make better lives for the jews. anyone can search this info, its not difficult to find out the truths about jews and their financial & political ambitions for total dominance/control on the entire world. 6 million jews did not die, in fact as little as less than 1 million did parish during WW's 1 & 2. these are the jews that were against zionism/state of EVILS-rael, and total dominance of the world. they were for creating their own EVILS-rael in western europe. REAL jews decided to wipe out these "weeds" to make greener pastures for their longevity on this planet. and most of the jews that were massacred during WW's 1 & 2 were not even of REAL AUTHENTIC jew origin, these were the jews that were some other identity from 1000 yrs ago and were converted to judism. so technically jews did not even die during any of the history of the past 100 yrs. in fact, it is against jewish law for jews to kill any other jews (either directly or indirectly through other entities). jews would never slaughter their own, but would create a HOAX to make it as if their own was slaughtered, and then blame it on someone else. jews are the biggest LIARS/DECEIVERS/DECEPTORS on this planet. they are known for this, it is in encoded in their DNA. the real numbers of jews on this planet are not the so-called 14-15 million that EVILS-rael claims there is. in fact, there is several jews that have come out to EXPOSE the truth of the numbers of jews, the numbers are closer to 90-100 million. most jews are hiding under another identity, and/or have assumed that other identity, but in reality are LOYAL to zionism/jewishness & total jew dominance on all non-jews (gentiles)
again, jews deny the AG because they very well know they are responsible for it. videos of this TRUTH & FACTS can be found on YouTube, and other web sites that expose the truth of jews & their zionism
Who are "the Jews"? There is no such group think. Jews are all different just like Americans. What one idiot Jewish organization guy says does not mean that "the Jews" think that way….it means that organization head said that he "thinks" his organization should not get involved. What he said is ridiculous! But not representative of me, nor any Jew I have ever discussed the issue with, and that is all I can say for sure. Let us see scientifically what "the Jews" think and that would be different that this Jacobs guy.
Yet, in many of these responses you can see how easily the traditional demonization of "the Jews" becomes visable. It is only just under the surface (control the money, only concerned about money, zionists conspiracy, etc…). This is what makes some Jews think that they must only do what will save Jews, because as soon as one Jew does something they don't like they revert to the mean mob with the torches coming to the Jews house to burn it down.
I ask only that you know that the response here shows that there is no "the Jews" and the ones posted here are in your favor, and hate this genocide denial.
Also, I tell you that the Kurds have gone to the Armenians and appologized to the Armenians for any part their fathers may have had in the matter. In many places Armenians are working with Kurds to get recognition for Kurdish rights. Kurds suffered continuous ethnic genocide and killing and cleansing. What have the Armenians done to help the Kurds get recognition for the horrors of theirs? Now you have been asked what "the Armenians" feel about Kurdish genocide? Do all of your commitee heads agree? Probably not but will you fight with them over it? Will you spend your political will on Kurds? What if it got all the Armenians in say…..Lebanon killed? Would you take that risk? I don't know if ALL of Armenians would do this.
How does a backwards country like Turkey have so much influence on US? Is US dependant on Turkey more than vise versa? What kind of message do we send to the world by having US manipulated by freakin turks?!
Of all people, I would think a Jew like Jacobs would at least sympathize with an atrocity that was also carried out on his people, that is unless Mr. Jacobs also counts the 1940 's as part of the first half of the century? I am happy that Mr. Kurtzman has brought this issue forward and I hope many other people also voice their opinion.
Whoever wrote about the Armenian antisemitism – thank you for making me laugh! This person knows NOTHING about Armenia and – as a matter of fact – about the history of Jewish tribes one of which in fact ended up in Armenia CENTURIES ago – and Armenians are well aware of it. In fact, the genetic analysis showed relatedness of many Armenians to Jews. The Armenian Jewish community was one of the oldest and of a significant number. It ceased to exist when the war in Karabakh started. The special effort by the Israeli government was taken to educate the Armenian Jews and to then move those of them who wanted to Israel. It was a rather well designed and conducted effort – my closest friend at that time was an integral part of it. Armenia was, perhaps, the only republic of the former Soviet Union with NO antisemitism at all. One of the reasons I already mentioned – the awareness of the genetic relatedness. Perhaps, another reason was the fact that Armenia was the country with the highest number of non-diluted original (Armenian) population whereas all other republics were heavily "diluted" by spreading and mixing people from other places of the Soviet Union. Finally, you may laugh at the third reason – but I am dead serious mentioning it. IT WAS A JOKE: Armenians have to take good care of their Jews – because once the Jews will be finished, they will be the next [to be oppressed]. Regardless of how sad it sounded, there was some truth in it (the other joke said that the Armenian is in fact the highest quality Jew). Bottom line is that there is NO SUCH THING as Armenian antisemitism. However, if any individual who appears to be Armenian expresses antisemitic views – s/he is not speaking for the whole nation! That is for sure! And, because of this closeness and because both nations suffered from tremendous slaughters, Armenians are shocked by the behavior of certain Jewish leaders and private individuals who are falling under the influence of political winds that are blown from Turkey.
http://www.gopetition.com/online/17164.html
And also Elie Wiesel did. But he did not acknowledge the genocide bill. It is a poltical thing. Jews and Israel can keep our relations with Turkey, and at the same time not be deniers. Armenia and Turkey can reconcile. What individuals say or do not say out of ignorance, I have no control over. It is best they be educated. I think this is some of the problem, when countries like Turkey do not allow it to be discussed; and people are not educated or unable to hear both sides of the issue. I think that a lot of Turks would be sympathetic, really. Viva Levon, Viva Armenia.
An earlier post by an Armenian made a point very similar to the one you are making. But do keep in mind that outside agents, such as Arabs or Turks, have been superfluous in terms of causing the Armenians to be hurt. Prominent Jewish groups like the AJC and the ADL are doing a fine job of it all on their own. On the other hand, this website, as well as many prominent Jewish historians, politicians, and academics, have also done a lot to make Armenians feel vindicated in their 90+ year struggle for acknowledgment and recognition.
I would urge prominent Jewish leaders to look at the example of Tom Lantos. For many years he opposed recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Congress. However, just months before he lost his battle against cancer, he changed his position and lent his weight and credibility for acknowledgment and recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Since his death, in virtually every article that has been written about him, one of the things that is highlighted among his many accomplishments is his fight for human rights and his support for recognition of the Armenian Genocide. What a wonderful way to be remembered, as opposed to being remembered as a Genocide Denier. Why did this Holocaust survivor change his mind this time around? Why did he do it during the last months of his life? He was a Holocaust survivor. Is it possible, even probable, that at the end, he couldn't leave this world knowing that he had contributed to the immoral denial of an almost perfect extermination of a people? Abe Foxman and Barry Jacobs should closely look at the example of Tom Lantos.
The poster saying he is Jewish, changes his alias, and repeats the antisemitic lie that Ataturk was a crytoJew and responsible for the Armenian genocide. Ataturk is a proven muslim and Jews had no responsibility for the Armenian genocide. To say zionism is a plot of the Jews against non-Jews is also a lie. But the lies get repeated here and on other websites, and no one allows us to refute the lies in those countries, Armenia, Ukraine, who are still only half way from communist government repression. We cannot yet go on tv or get the governments to put the antisemities out of business. Unless we can tackle this antisemitism, with help from the Armenians and Ukrainians, it will increase due to arab oil money and Israel and Jews all over the world could be in danger. They are attacked in Ukraine, Russia, etc., bombed in their community centers everywhere. Brave LTP is taking his case to the Armenians today and his goal of reconciliation with Turkey obviously has a lot of supporters. I understand his wife is Jewish and his son spent some years in Israel. He is a wonderful Armenian who will do a lot for the birth of democracy and freedom in Armenia. GOD BLESS THEM ALL.
A post here blamed the Jews for the Armenian genocide. This antisemitism is prevalent in Armenian and also it is popping up in different versions all over Russia, Ukraine, funded probably by the muslim oil antisemities to use the Jews as scapegoats, favoring the Pals against Israel, and trying probably to keep their despotic regimes in rule. They attempt to do this by connecting to antisemities in other countries and the NAZIS in USA. People as Armenians and Ukrainians, who were never prevalently antisemitic are getting hit with this propaganda and antisemitism is on the increase. You cannot blame Israel and Abe Foxman for trying to fight this antisemitism in Armenia, Turkey, Ukraine, etc. Abe Foxman and I would say the majority of Americans, being Christians, know about the genocide and are in sympathy. However, America must keep its strategic ally, Turkey. For conflicts to be managed, they cannot be one-sided, each side must understand there is good and bad on both sides and then reconcile. So in the Turkey-Armenia conflict, Israel-Palestinians and all the others. Reconcile. This antisemitism can hurt us.
Whether we like to admit it or not, Jewish organizations such as the ADL, AIPAC, and AJC have millions of dollars put into lobbying. That is real political power.
You are right about one thing. Turkey's tactics are ridiculous and moral, ethical Jewish groups need to be more subjective and have stronger backbones. I find it hard to believe that these well-respected organization could be sofoolish to ally themselves with a country who would blame us for the acknowledgment of their actions. It's despicable. Really!
God forbid someone should deny the Holocaust. Look at how our community reacts, with tremendous uproar and outrage.
In the Jewish tradition, we have a saying "do not stand idly by the spilled blood of your neighbor" Armenians are our neighbors and our brothers and sisters in struggle.
While we are not spilling blood, we are doing nothing to help clean up a mess that was the precursor to our spilled blood. Violence begets violence and remaining silent only increases the possibility that another genocide can and will occur.
The ADL, Anti-Defamation League, what are they doing? Their organization was not founded to only protects Jews.
And whereas the AJC mission may be to do just that, I for one do not feel protected.
As powerful lobbying groups whose voice is acknowledged, there is an obligation to lend your voice to those who are not always heard.
Short and sweet! And to the point! Bravo!!!
Tsk tsk! Can't you find another column to "red herring"?
We have an observation in sailboat racing and that is that there is always a favored tack to the windward mark. The majority of boats follow the favored tack and occasionally it makes sense to buck the majority and do the opposite. However, the good skipper (on behalf of his crew that will share in the results of his decision) has to ask himself "am I so much better informed than everyone else is that I can go against these very seasoned competitors in this instance? Do I have irrefutable proof?" or "Do I consider myself smarter than them?".
So which are you Mr.Z? Smarter? More knowledgeable? Neither? Both? Think, Mr. (or Ms.) Z. Before you speak. But more so before you act.