Hump Day Art: Animated Graffiti |
|
by Izzy Grinspan, May 14, 2008 |
|
All of the diamond-headed babies, eight-armed monkey men, and skittering teeth in this video were drawn on public walls in Buenos Aires and Baden, Germany. The art is astonishing enough, but if you start contemplating the work that went into making it, your head might explode and give birth to another head. Just like in the film.
![]() |
Disappearing Act | |
| Nathan Englander on his new novel about Argentina's Dirty War | ||
|
by Robert Birnbaum, June 4, 2007
|
||
Robert Birnbaum spoke to Englander about the aftermath of Argentina’s Dirty War, his intense writing process, and the 75 pages of questions he felt he had to answer before his epic was finally done. -- Izzy Grinspan
Englander's own Buenos: The Ministry of Special CasesBesides getting a haircut, what else have you been doing for the last nine years?
[Laughs] I knew that might come up. Not much else. Oh, there's the novel. There's that.
When we spoke in '99, you mentioned a novel set in Argentina. At that time you were planning to go back there.
I went to Argentina in 1991 for friend's wedding and fell in love with the place, but it wasn't any sort of Michener love. When it was time to write this book, I had all these ideas about community, identity and government—really, governments gone awry—and as that all coalesced, Argentina seemed like an excellent setting. But I actually hadn't been back until last month.
You hadn't gone back since we spoke?
I think sometimes knowledge is a dangerous thing for me. It’s limiting in a sense. I really wanted to build my own Buenos Aires. I had these nice vague memories—a feel of wide avenues, or a memory of eating in this restaurant, or seeing this old man—and that really was enough for me. I didn't want to go back until I was done. I do an extreme amount of research after the fact.
You check your composition against facts.
Yeah. There are certain things that I stand by, and one is that anything that book demands becomes true by virtue of its necessity to the fictional world. So the Ministry of Special Cases, the building itself, it is. It exists in my world and hopefully in others’.
Is there actually a part of the bureaucracy named the Ministry of Special Cases?
No. If I needed to put Argentina north of the equator I would have. But then I go back and I want it all exactly right. If a character goes fishing off the pier, I want to know what they fish with. It's really an insane process. The book is basically done and then I am changing details. If the fiction does not demand it, then I want to be exacting.
First of all, why did you write this book?
[Laughs] That's a good first-of-all question.
It's not an easy question.
It’s a gigantic question. If I step back, I can see the bigger ideas: my Argentine friends, or having been to Buenos Aires, or how we are shaped by politics or identity. But it can also be as simple as living in Israel and seeing the obsession with bones, with crossed-border stuff, where soldiers disappear and Israel is fighting to get them back or Hezbollah wants their own soldiers back. There’s this Jewish idea of having something to bury that goes back to the Holocaust. It’s these very primal things for me.
The Ministry of Special Cases starts with something ostensibly funny, though it devolves into the harrowing world of the Dirty War. There’s a split in the Jewish community between the seamier tawdry element and the middle class strivers who are now interested in repudiating their pasts. How much of that was historically true?
One element that fascinated me about the setting was that South America is so rich but so poor. Then again, come to Manhattan; it’s turning in to the same thing. But that's what drew me to Argentina: Part of its strength, what has held it all together through all this stuff, is that it is a country of the middle class. What do middle class people do? They want to hold on or move up. And at the turn of the century when all the Jewish tailors were coming over to New York and Buenos Aires, they had a little problem with white slavery and Jewish whorehouses. The community was deeply, deeply ashamed of them, and what interested me was the idea of what’s sacred and what’s profane and who points a finger. Newt Gingrich just admitted he was a having an affair during the Clinton impeachment—that idea of deep hypocrisy.
A living memorial: Madres de la Plaza de MayoThat was a later admission. During the impeachment a high-ranking congressman from Illinois had to resign because of an affair.
Those kinds of stories move me deeply in terms of how we relate to each other. Women who were either tricked or sold into white slavery—this idea that they were Jewish and wanted to be buried as Jews. That’s how the novel starts: The other Jews wouldn't have the children of prostitutes in their cemetery. I’m interested in this idea that somebody could stand in judgment of somebody else and say you can’t be buried among us. When I heard these graveyards exist and they are indeed locked off or in disrepair, I became obsessed with this idea of eternal punishment.
By reputation, the Dirty War is a matter of great shame. People actively deny it, and they don’t talk about it out of guilt or for fear of some kind of reprisal.
I have a theory. Here’s the best way to ruin a novel: Put in all these theories that you are so proud of. But I’ve lived in Israel, where every ten feet there is a wall, there are names. I heard there’s a memorial in New Jersey of September 11, and some families didn’t want their names on it, and there’s fighting about the one downtown. In the US and Israel, we memorialize. And then in Buenos Aires you have the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, who have marched every Thursday for twenty-five years against a government that’s long gone.
You do see this in Latin America—in Nicaragua, curbstones have memorials to fallen heroes of the revolution, car accidents and so forth.
Yeah, yeah, there will be a basketball where there was a car accident because the kid liked basketball. In a city that so loves its dead, that has built its whole social life around this cemetery, that has these giant statues everywhere, it is interesting to me that the mothers are absolutely the biggest living sign of the Dirty War.
Did you go see them when you went back? Was there an audience?
Yeah. It wasn’t big, but there were people there every week. What must it be like to pass these same ladies every week for 25 years?
I asked my Argentine friend Jessica, “Is it hidden here?” She said without pause, “It’s alive for us. We know it exists.” It’s not prominent in the way it would be here, but Argentina is such a polite society. That part was taken advantage of by the junta, and when you are hyper-polite a lot of stuff doesn’t get said.
Everybody I asked responded that way: “We know and we have not forgotten.” And it’s a living thing. That was the other point Jessica made that I thought was excellent. She sent me the YouTube for this commercial they had on the air last year. It shows a kid on the beach. In Argentina, when a kid is lost on the beach, you pick up the kid and everyone claps until the parents are found. [The junta] stole a lot of children and gave them away for adoption. This ad used the beach as a metaphor: If you don’t know who your parents are, we are looking for you.
Don't cry for her: Isabel Peron was recently arrestedMy impression was that Argentines as a society have not owned up to these terrible crimes, but it sounds like that’s wrong.
There is nobody who doesn’t know. I am wondering how they are going to deal in the future, since the mothers are old.
There are trials now, yes?
I had this metaphor in my novel about habeas corpus. Now that the reviews are coming out, suddenly I learn that I have a political book because we have actually suspended habeas corpus in America. When you start taking away rights, the citizenry doesn’t notice. It’s not even a slippery slope; it’s a crossing of the line. People mark the start of the junta from the start of the coup—say March 24, if that’s when the coup was successful. Well, it was still happening the 23rd. It started long before it made history. Isabel Peron was arrested in Spain in January and that was unbelievably moving to me—she needed to be arrested.
I am fascinated by the stories, factual and fictional that are based on victims meeting their torturers.
Yes, there are all kinds of stories like that—being on a bus and just looking over.
That’s such a loaded moment. Nothing needs to be said. This tactic of disappearing people is very cruel, perhaps the cruelest thing to visit on a family. I think the Guatamalan military were the first to employ this. I wonder if we can trace these things back to the US Army’s School for the Americas at Fort Benning, where many senior military officials from around South America were taught so-called “counter-insurgency tactics.”
Them’s fighting words.
Okay. Who decided how to disappear people?
I can’t even touch that. There are things that I can’t even touch for my own ignorance. With the School of the Americas, I’m interested in the Kissinger years, America’s connection with Chile and stuff like that. But how much of America was I going to put in the book? At the end of the research stage, one of my Argentine friends said, “You’re not damning enough about the United States.” Which was interesting, but it was not of this world that I was creating.
I am not suggesting that the book was obliged to deal with any of these hot-button topics.
That’s why this ended up being a ten-year book. At different times I have been obsessed with every one of these threads.
![]() |
Disappearing Act: Part Two | |
| Nathan Englander on his new novel about Argentina's Dirty War | ||
|
by Robert Birnbaum, June 1, 2007
|
||
What was the size of the manuscript before you cut the book down?
The finished book is 350 pages. I probably handed in 600 pages to my agent, but really, with the footnotes and my annotated raw notes, it was around 1100 pages.
You expected to do radical excision?
That’s how I work. I really love to work with negative space. Otherwise I would lose my mind. It took a decade; if it was the wrong direction I would really go insane. I really believe I had to draw Lillian a thousand different ways for her to become Lillian, even if it means drawing these scenes and dropping them out.
It was really a giant test for me as a writer to not fall prey to sensationalism, too. How much fun is it for Mr. Naughty Ex-Religious Boy to do the Jewish pimps and whores? I wrote tons of chapters on those whorehouses, but that was not the story I was telling. And the same with torture. I gave it this tiny little section that was the hardest and most dangerous part to write.
Risk-taker: YehoshuaIt was powerfully effective to have this little girl being incarcerated in this tube-like cell awaiting her —
Thank you. That was scary. Just after finishing my book I interviewed A.B. Yehoshua on stage about his novel Woman in Jerusalem which has a Greek chorus that comes in at the end. I asked him, “Did you really need to take that chance? Are you aware of how dangerous that was? You were home free.” I love fiction and it’s holy to me; I feel like if I make one mistake, I'm bumped and its over.
What do you mean, you're bumped?
Bumped out of line. “This was a perfect book but that comma is in the wrong place and it doesn't read right for me anymore.”
Is Kaddish a common Jewish surname?
No, no.
So if I'm not Jewish, and I’m reading this book, do I get the portentous nature of the name?
Even better if you don’t. His name is explained in the book, and how he received it. It’s a Jewish tradition. If somebody, say, has a terrible heart attack and survives it, they will take on a new name. If the angel of death was coming for Steve Cohen, he might not be looking for Marc Cohen. Sometimes people take on these wonderfully loaded, portentous names. In this case, the rabbi gives Kaddish his name—which is the prayer for the dead—because he is a sickly child. He says he should be the mourner instead of the mourned.
This book will not be pegged as a Jewish book, will it? A Jewish novel?
I like the way the question is formed because I get really defensive about that. It really comes from the Jewish community. I'm happy to be anything. You can call me whatever you want. Last time people said, "He is a long haired hippie writer," so now I am a short haired —
[RB laughs]
Now am I actually different? I got a haircut. Well, so do we switch shelves? But for me, I believe that if fiction is functioning, it better be universal. If this book makes me a Jewish writer, it should also make me an Argentine writer. I spent ten years of my life on this book. I'm obsessed with this country. I lived this book for a decade. I can't feel any closer.
Historically, it feels like I have been given the Holocaust because I am a Jew, even though I am an American Jew—you are bequeathed these things. But sometimes you just adopt them. Argentina is so close to my heart now. I am just doing my work and they are my people. I should at least be one quarter Argentine writer now. But apparently that doesn't change either.
The changes a decade brings: Englander pre-haircutHow Jewish is the Posnan family?
After the last book, I just I felt so much pressure to be like, “These are not regular people, they are Jewish people.” It’s just insane. I write fiction. And again I think of fiction as universal. My world in my head is often very Jewish when I imagine these things, but for the Posnans I actively resisted that. Once I decided the book starts off, “Jews bury themselves, the way they live,” that was one of the most freeing days, like “I’m just going to start this book with the word ‘Jews.’”
I was trying to stay away from Jewishness, but I recognized there is nothing to stay away from, that this is the world of my imagination. And it’s enough to me that it’s part of their humanity. Once I realized that I was not thinking of them as “other,” I got comfortable with the idea that none of this stuff is other, and now I feel like I can set everything in shul for the rest of my life. I am just so sensitive about it. It’s just such a strange thing that people want to do.
Why is it strange? Isn’t that what minority communities do?
Inside my head, it’s not a minority. That’s the whole point. When I grew up, Orthodox was the only way to be. I keep using the Dostoevsky example: In the Idiot, one Russian guy is talking to another Russian guy. But they don’t see themselves as “Russian guys.” You’re just in their world. They’re just guys.
What are your feelings about Kaddish and Lillian and Pato? Ten years with three people—
Day and night, yeah. I’m such a pessimist, I didn’t know if I would survive this book until the characters began to take on their own forms.. You have Lillian say one thing, and you go back and it’s just not her anymore. A friend still hasn't forgiven me this one moment I wanted so much. I think it was maybe the finest line I have ever written, but it was just a slightly different Lillian head—she would just not think this way at this point, anywhere in the book. That's when it the book felt tight to me, when I cut that line.
There was a question about surviving this book? If you felt that, what was the hump that you got over?
That moment I just said.
Nine years into it [laughs]?
I knew the book would be completed when I suddenly had another idea. I’d was writing the novel—this thing that was all-consuming, literally eating my whole brain—and then this little space opened and I thought, “Oh, that would be a good short story.” I feel like my head is now lit with ideas. It’s all free space now.
I would have thought that for some period of time, having completed the book after spending so much time on it, there would be some kind of reverberation. You’re saying you have been liberated to move on.
For me this was book was all-consuming, like most of my adult life spent on it. There really was a postpartum thing where you feel fine for a couple of weeks and then you just crash. My whole sense of purpose was this book, but then it gets balanced out by the fact that my real purpose is writing. If that’s what you are going to do all the time, you better really like it. So I feel like people get into trouble when they are only project-oriented.
Not a Jewish star in sight: Englander's first bookNine years later, big life commitment. Done. So what do you think about your book?
For me it’s not about whether I think it’s good. I recognize that’s not for me to do. I know what my obligations to a book are. I always quote Barry Targin, a writer who taught me about moral fiction at Binghamton. He talked about writing a fiction he could bear. The question is, do you stand by it?
You are proud of this as a good piece of craft?
Uh, I don’t know if it’s that.
You did the best you could?
Actually, it’s very strange for me to need to say, “Yes. I have tried my best” and then also to be done. Literally, my poor, poor editor, poor Jordan—I made a list of probably 75 to 100 pages of questions that I wanted to answer before the book was done. I remember sitting in her office on the last day, with her at her desk and me sitting at a small desk behind her.
Was it the kid’s table?
At the kid’s table. Other editors would walk by the office and look in and say “Poor woman. I don’t know why they love each other, those two.”
I remember sitting there crossing out the last question and being like, “And now I am done.” That’s it.
That’s a beautiful scene. Possibly shows the finer editor-writer relationship—
I'm so thankful for my editor and my agent. They take good care of me.
Let's give them names. Who are they?
Nicole Araggi and Jordan Pavlin at Knopf. I’m spoiled as can be. I’m really happy at Knopf. They care about books. Even the cover is important. Barbara de Wilde, who did my first cover, she hadn’t worked there in the intervening eight years and yet they brought her back. Nobody asked. I didn’t ask. To me that means somebody in the art department is thinking about books in a careful way. Not that anybody remembers I was alive, thank you, but I don’t think my collection would have sold a copy with a Jewish star on the front. They represented it the way I see it and that gave it a chance.
Have you spent much time thinking about who you are now, after this long boat voyage, ten years before the mast or some such?
My friends would say, “All he does is think about himself.” [both laugh] But not in that way. It’s a goal, to be very honest, to choose writing, to make time to write. I keep saying “obsessed” or “holy” because I am obsessed with it and it is holy to me. The writing will not suffer. I refuse to have it suffer but, now, after this point maybe I can balance writing and something else. I would like to be more available for dinner plans with the next book. That can be a goal.
You’re shooting for becoming a well-rounded mensch here.
I’d like to work towards being of the world.
We’ll check in from time to time and see how it goes.
| New in Jewcy: The Sexy Rabbis and Saber-Rattling Politicians of Buenos Aires | |
|
by Joey Kurtzman, March 26, 2007
|
|
Finally, an image to burn Yentl out of my head. David Shneer wraps up his voyage thro
They're So Over Her: In Buenos Aires, girl Torah scholars don't have to dress like boy Torah scholarsugh Jewish Buenos Aires with a stop at Belgrano (Latin America’s answer to the Upper West Side) and goes to services led by a smoking-hot female rabbi in a clingy green dayglo shirt and painted-on black pants. No wonder the shul was full of teenagers. Jewish continuity may not be as tricky as it seems.
Plus, there’s some stuff relating to the 15th anniversary of the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy, and about how Argentinian Judaism has influenced American Judaism, stuff like that.
![]() |
Adventures in Buenos Aires (Day 5) | |
| Sexy rabbis and saber-rattling politicians on the anniversary of catastrophe | ||
|
by David Shneer, March 26, 2007
|
||
| Adventures in Buenos Aires (Day 4) | |
| Running from the police in Shmattaville | |
|
by David Shneer, March 22, 2007
|
|
| New in Jewcy: Buenos Aires, Bombings, and Barricades | |
|
by Joey Kurtzman, March 19, 2007
|
|
In his second dispatch from Buenos Aires Judio y caliente, David Shneer walks by the local
And This is a Holiday?: Historian David Shneer goes totally lachrymose! Holocaust museum and wonders when concrete barricades and glowering armed guards became the new peyes and kippot. Then he’s off to pay his respects at the site where the Israeli embassy was blown up in 1992, fifteen years ago from yesterday. And then he watches a protest led by an Argentine hero who may unfortunately be an antisemite, and then…OMG, if Jewcy’s own New Jew Superhero can’t have a blast in Buenos Aires, what hope is there for the rest of us? Read it here.