Sex & Love
When the Jewish Dating Pool Dwindles
By Ashley Tedesco / February 11, 2009
With all the talk about dating Jewish men, it certainly makes one wonder about the Jewish dating pool. One would think that, in Manhattan of all places, there would be an endless supply of nice Jewish boys for a nice Jewish girl (with a little Shiksa flare).
Wrong.
First of all, I go to a Catholic, Jesuit university. The closest thing I can find to a nice Jewish boy here is a guy who doesn’t throw his Bible at me and say, “Hey, read the second half, it’s good.” (No joke, this happened once at a party.) So I (though not for the purpose of dating) started getting involved in Jewish groups in the city. There are dozens of groups that coordinate events for Jewish “young professionals,” and even though I’m still a student, I thought getting involved would be a great way to feel a sense of community. And I have, for sure.
After a handful of bizarre encounters, though, I’ve begun towonder if “20’s and 30’s” is code for “singles on the prowl.” I would be the last person to call myself an expert on dating, but here’s a few examples of what not to do if you’re limiting yourself to the, say, Upper West Side Jewish community for dating:
I went to a huge Shabbat dinner a few weeks ago, knowing nobody but the host, who had 150 other people to entertain. And given that a good many of those 150 found themselves in the same position, there was a lot of forced small-talk going on. Which is fine, of course—until the unwanted advances start coming. A doctor introduced himself to me by remarking on just how cold I looked when I walked in (15 blocks in 25 degree weather is not, I’ve learned, “walking distance”). But within 45 seconds, after I mentioned that I was an undergrad, he said something along the lines of, “Oh, God—you’re 20, aren’t you? I shouldn’t even be talking to you—I’m old enough be your father.”Good, make it clear that you’re only here to scope out prospects. Not long after, I smiled sweetly and ducked to make conversation with someone a little more age-appropriate. I brushed off the guy who hit on me as the token 40-year-old and moved on. Until the following Saturday.
I went to morning Shabbat services at a completely different place. And the same doctor was hanging around. When he came over to say hello, I figured he remembered me from the week prior and planned to pick up where we left off. Not so much. He recited his entire shpiel again, verbatim. Moral of the story? If you’re so old that you don’t remember trying to pick me up seven days prior (and sober, nonetheless),you’re too old to be trying to pick up a 20-year-old.
The same goes for those two characters who have friended me on Facebook—not once, but twice. Especially the one who, both times, included a note trying to convince me to accept his request by complimenting my photo and name-dropping people who claim to have never exchanged more than two words with him. If it happens again, you better believe I’ll drop a note saying, “I’ve always wanted to be Facebook friends with somebody who finished his MBA when I was in middle school!”
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I must say that the Orthodox womens attire is I believe worn out of a sense of modesty, how wrong can they be !!…….Compare their lovely tailored designer fitted skirts and twin sets to the modern western drab jeans and overstylized tat that is worn nowadays. Jewish fashions seem to hark back to the days when women dressed as women………..Wow !! please forgive me for saying, they bring ”sexy” to a whole new level !!…….Maybe the Rabbi will have to tone down these excellent clothing choices !!………………………I would be very interested in hearing replies, Thanks.
but you can date someone who isn’t jewish right?
Genesis 13:
14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring [a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you."
Genesis 15:
5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Revelation 3:
9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
Revelation 7:
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
To be biblical about it, there is a natural explanation for the difficulty in the procurement of a suitable Jewish partner for each Jewish female. Between the Old and New Testaments the number of promised true Jewish adherents drops considerably. The original promise is for the adherents of Judaism to be so profuse as to not be countable. Later the adherents of Judaism (true adherents) are so limited as to be no more than 144,000. If this is correct, then it is a natural development for women of [Jewish] faith to find it necessary to seek non-Jewish men to ensure survival of faith itself.
Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust. Live you must and let to live. Fairly take and fairly give.
When I still dated (I’ve given it up) the biggest complain Igot (I do live in Manhattan, NYC) was that I DIDN’T wear a lot of makeup and perferred dancing flats (or hiking and hiking boots) to heels, and wore my hair down, clean and blow-dried.
Seek and ye shall find. I’m sure there are plenty of girls still out there who aren’t in the sterotype. But they aren’t considered ‘hot’ by the Jewish guys, either. We get asked out because you think we AREN’T Jewish, and when you find out we are, we are DUMPED. This isn’t really about hair and makeup.
Perhaps I didn’t put this terribly clearly in my piece when I wrote it, but the point wasn’t entirely due to age. I have no problem with dating an older guy, though I’d have to say 28 would probably be my limit right now. The point of this piece is that I find it sad that the Jewish dating pool seems to have gotten so small that men are recycling me. I understand that you tend to meet a lot of the same people at various functions when you share common ground, but at least try to keep tabs on who you’re trying to pick up so you don’t do it twice in one week. I would have the same complaint if a 24-year-old whom I wasn’t terribly interested in did the same thing. I simply spotted a trend that all three of these men were in their 40s and perhaps plagued with early senility–which is giving them the benefit of the doubt, really, if they’re just serial daters.
I organize both 20′s/30′s events and Jewish singles events.
This is what I can tell you about Jewish men in their 40′s, and this is from a lot of personal experience, mind you.
They are never as old as whatever age they are. They always look, act, and feel much, much younger. I have yet to meet or speak with a Jewish single man in his 40′s who actually thinks that they look or act 40.
They always are looking for a younger woman. Always. And one or two years never cuts it. Even if they are not interested in children, a women could be the perfect match for them in every way, but if she isn’t "younger", they have no interest.
Some guys, even 50+, think it’s entirely appropriate to go to events for 20′s and 30′s, to lie about their age, job, relationship status, etc… even when they will be discovered to be lying immidiately. "Yeah, money is tight right now" "But didn’t you say you were a doctor/lawyer/banker?" "I’m in my…30′s." "But how come you remember JFK’s assassination?"
Oh, and creepy guys usually do have a clue, they’re just more attached to their denial.
If Jews were allowed to marry anyone with the same G-d, then
Muslims, and Christians according to most, and even Hindus according to
some, would all be fair game for a Jew to marry.
When it comes to
marriage, Jews may only marry Jews. Even if a given gentile keeps every
single law in the Torah, knows the Talmud backwards and forwards, goes
to shul three times a day, etc. etc., if this gentile hasn’t converted,
a Jew cannot marry him or her.
It is interesting to note that
Rabbi Menachem haMeiri, an influential 13th century Provencal
halakhist, categorized the Talmudic laws against gentiles into 3
categories:
1) Laws against dealing with idolaters, such as selling them wares for
their worship and dealing with them on their holidays – apply only to
true pagans, not to Christians and Muslims. Of course, many Jews today
would nevertheless be reticent to be dealers in Christian sacramental
wine and editions of the Koran, but this wouldn’t violate the stricture
against idolatry, per se. But to sell an idol to an idolater would be a
real full-blown violation.
2) Laws denying gentiles equality in
civil laws (damages, property law, etc.) – these apply only to immoral
gentiles who do not observe humane moral decency, but gentiles who
observe such laws (such as most gentiles you’ll meet nowadays) are
completely equal to Jews in this are. The rationale is that we need not
be completely fair with a gentile who would obscenely abuse us, given
the chance. We cannot outright steal from him, or cheat him, but if he,
for example, were to overpay you, you would not have an obligation to
inform him of his mistake. One is not obligated to do such kindness to
him, if he were the sort to steal from you and cheat you, given half a
chance. These laws are complex, but in any case, they don’t apply to
gentiles today anymore. And note Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik (Orthodox,
late rosh yeshiva of Skokie Yeshiva in Chicago), at
http://uriltzedek.webnode.com/news/rav-ahron-soloveichik-civil-rights-and-the-dignity-of-man/,
who makes the case that cheating immoral gentiles was always forbidden,
and was merely a lesser sin than to cheat a moral gentile; in other
words, it is forbidden to cheat any gentile, but cheating an immoral
gentile is less forbidden, but still a grave sin all the same. To quote
that article:
The Talmud Yerushalmi (Bava M’tziya) tells
the story of Shimon ben Shetach, who worked in the flax business,
struggling to make a living. His disciples advised him to give up the
flax business and buy a donkey, which would provide a better source of
income. Shimon ben Shetach agreed, and his students bought a donkey
from an Arab pagan. After buying the animal, these disciples found a
large diamond tied to it, and they brought both the animal and the
jewel to their teacher. Upon seeing the acquisitions of his students,
Shimon ben Shetach asked, “Did the Arab know that there was a diamond
tied to the donkey?” The disciples said, “No.” At that point, Shimon
ben Shetach said to his disciples, “Go immediately and return the
diamond.” The disciples, however, were curious—is it not stated that
all agree that the lost goods of a pagan are permitted to be retained?
Shimon ben Shetach responded, “Do you think that I am such a barbarian?
I am more interested in hearing the exclamation, “Blessed be the God of
the Jews” from the mouths of pagans than I am in making a living.”
Although perhaps the act of keeping the diamond might not have been
stealing according to the law, it was still forbidden as an act of
“barbarism” since “The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity or speak
lies.” It is inconsistent with k’vod habriyos [the honor due a fellow human being] and human rights.
At this point, we might note why these first two categories are
so innovative. The Talmud speaks of "gentiles" and "idolaters"
interchangeably, for in the Talmud’s time, most gentiles were
idolaters, and a good majority were widely practicing murder, incest,
etc. So the Talmud never thought to distinguish a moral gentile from an
immoral one, or an idolatrous gentile from a monotheistic one. The
Meiri’s insight, then, was to realize that the Talmud’s assumptions no
longer applied.
3) Laws against intermarriage – For example, a
Jew is forbidden to eat certain types of food cooked by a gentile, or drink
wine produced by a gentile (these laws fall under th laws of kashrut,
and any food today with a kosher certification, has complied with these
laws), lest he become overly familar with the gentile host and marry his daughter (they didn’t have universities and restaurants back then – call this law outdated, but it’s still on the books). The Meiri noted that these laws apply in full force
today, regardless of how moral or monotheistic the gentile may be. It
is nothing against their morality or their religion; it is only that
Jews believe we are part of a distinct nation with a distinct purpose
on earth, and fulfilling this purpose requires that we maintain our
Jewish identity. Intermarried couples have very little chance of their
children identifying fully as Jews, especially in a non-Jewish country.
Lest this appear racist, let us note the words of Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits, late (Orthodox) Chief Rabbi of Britain:
"Yes, I do believe in the Chosen people concept as affirmed by Judaism
in its holy writ, its prayers, and its millennial tradition. In fact, I
believe that every people – and indeed, in a more limited way, every
individual – is "chosen" or destined for some distinct purpose in
advancing the designs of Providence. Only, some fulfill their mission
and others do not. Maybe the Greeks were chosen for their unique
contributions to art and philosophy, the Romans for their pioneering
services in law and government, the British for bringing parliamentary
rule into the world, and the Americans for piloting democracy in a
pluralistic society. The Jews were chosen by God to be ‘peculiar unto
Me’ as the pioneers of religion and morality; that was and is their
national purpose."
does jewish people only marry jewish or others who believe in their god? or he have a wide choice of partner?
Great post. As a Jewish twenty-something single I can tell you that the worst pick-up experience repeats itself every time I head home (to Philadelphia) for the holidays. It’s me, in shul, surrounded by my parents’ friends and the one divorced, creepy, fifty-something year old male who hugs me way to tightly for way to long and always ends the hug session with "if only I were thirty years younger".
He also does the same to my sister, except at least she’s ten years closer to his age.
Reality Check, I find your comments here so bizarre, that perhaps you’re referring to a conversation you’ve had with Ashley elsewhere. If so, my following words do not apply.
But if you’re saying based her present essay, that she needs to be less preconceived in her expectations, I do not understand. In what way is she to be considered in error for spurning advances by someone twice her age? I cannot fathom what it is that you are considering inappropriate in her expectations. And to expect this fellow to avoid making said advances at someone half his age, is not an unreasonable expectation at all.
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