Religion & Beliefs

I Was Wrong About the Ultra-Orthodox

By David Kelsey / July 6, 2009

Comments (37)

I have long insisted that ultra-Orthodoxy contains viewpoints that are not only contemptuous of others, but are even downright hateful. But something happened this weekend in Jerusalem that made me reconsider my previous position. You see, I may be wrong about the ultra-Orthodox.

I may be guilty of understating the reality.

Anne Barker at ABC News reports,

As a journalist I’ve covered more than my share of protests. Political protests in Canberra. Unions protesting for better conditions. Angry, loud protests against governments, or against perceived abuses of human rights.I’ve been at violent rallies in East Timor. I’ve had rocks and metal darts thrown my way. I’ve come up against riot police.
But I have to admit no protest – indeed no story in my career – has distressed me in the way I was distressed at a protest in Jerusalem on Saturday involving several hundred ultra-Orthodox Jews.

[…]

I suddenly found myself in the thick of the protest – in the midst of hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews in their long coats and sable-fur hats. They might be supremely religious, but their behaviour – to me – was far from charitable or benevolent.As the protest became noisier and the crowd began yelling, I took my recorder and microphone out of my bag to record the sound. Suddenly found myself herded against a brick wall as they kept on spitting – on my face, my hair, my clothes, my arms. It was like rain, coming at me from all directions – hitting my recorder, my bag, my shoes, even my glasses. Big gobs of spit landed on me like heavy raindrops. I could even smell it as it fell on my face.Somewhere behind me – I didn’t see him – a man on a stairway either kicked me in the head or knocked something heavy against me. I wasn’t even sure why the mob was angry with me. Was it because I was a journalist? Or a woman? Because I wasn’t Jewish in an Orthodox area? Was I not dressed conservatively enough? In fact, I was later told, it was because using a tape-recorder is itself a desecration of the Shabbat even though I’m not Jewish and don’t observe the Sabbath.

I now invite our Orthodox defenders to explain how this oral gang-bang was Ms. Barker’s fault, or perhaps, to call her a liar, an exaggerator, or an anti-Semite. After all, Barker should have known it was shabbos. Her fault too, right? They were both wrong, so it’s a wash.

And don’t forget to insist it was an “isolated incident.”

They always are.

Via: Failed Messiah

Comments (37)

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By David N. Friedman 7/13/09 at 2:42 p.m. UTC
Thanks Disco Stu for weighing in here.

Note the Haredi protests with 30,000 people–all peaceful. These large organized rallies exist with the direct participation of Haredi leaders and this is a diverse community. From what I have read–these protests reflect well on the Haredi community and I believe there is something very positive to be said for a systematic effort to bring Jerusalem to greater and greater respect for the gross aspect of Shabbot observance (NOT the 39 melachot).

The small protests with the spitting incident reflect poorly on the knuckleheads who shamed themselves with boorish behavior. It is not fair-minded to smear the entire community over such incidents unless and until these kind of outburts are seen to be regular and defining of the community. By contrast, Illegal alien Hispanic crime is a systematic problem.

Mike, I don’t believe any Haredi Jew actually has justified spitting in the name of God or Torah and this would not be comparable to a Muslim crying out Alahu Akbar before mudering an innocent. The action of the Jew is not polite and a misdemeanor, the action of the Muslim would be the most severe act of murder.

As a Jew without a black hat–I would be very pleased if the people of Jerusalem became united around enforcing Shabbat and that would unite all Jews. It might even change the world.
By mikewinddale 7/11/09 at 2:21 p.m. UTC
David Friedman,

No doubt the left commits many crimes and injustices. But at least they do not do so in the name of the Torah. According to Pesikta d’Rav Kahana, the prohibition to bear G-d’s name in vain means to commit a hillul hashem while wearing tefillin. This would fit with Rabbi Joseph Telushkin’s attempt to say that the prohibition of bearing G-d’s name in vain means to use G-d’s name to justify any crime. Muslim terrorists do this when they shout "Allah Akbar" while in the course of murdering, and Haredim commit this same sin when they use the Torah to justify what they do.

Again, the left commits as many – perhaps more! – injustices than the Haredim, but the left admits that it is not representing the Torah.
By Disco_Stu 7/11/09 at 2:19 p.m. UTC
First of all Anne Barker is too naive to be a journalist. Second of all, the bitterness of David Kelsey isn’t much more elevated than the mob he chastises, it’s a form of verbal spitting.

I’m virtually always on the side of the secular in the secular/haredi conflict in Israel…until now. If I were orthodox, I’d be ashamed of the mob spitting and assault on Anne Barker. By the same token, as a secularist, I’m ashamed by the spurious attempt of Kelsey to pick a fight in this way.
By mikewinddale 7/11/09 at 2:18 p.m. UTC
G-d forbid I ever said anything is traditional about the Haredim! As Professor Menachem Friedman, the foremost historian and sociologist of Haredism says, "In my opinion the Eastern European, Ashkenazi character of haredi Jewry remains questionable to this day."

I said that Israelis know what traditional Judaism is, or at least, they know what it is not. Whether or not Israelis know what authentic Orthodoxy is – many of them erroneously believe that Haredism is a legitimate type of Orthodox Judaism – they at least know that Reform is not a historically valid form of Judaism. They know that if they’re ever going to practice Judaism – which they may or may not intend on doing someday – it’ll be of the traditional sort.
By David N. Friedman 7/10/09 at 5:04 p.m. UTC
David K–sure there could be a problem in ANY community. The fact that we as outsiders wish to at the same time demand perfection from Haredi Jews and also quickly condemn anything that can be associated with any participant lacks a sense of context, balance and proportion.

Yes, David–I read through the Failed Messiah website where all of these things are been "exposed." This is no demonstration of a significant problem. And any court in Israel would be pleased to take up the cause of the journalist who was spat upon–if she wished to prosecute assuming spitting is an infraction under law in Jerusalem. Again, I agree that this is bad behavior and behavior that lacks any kind of justification under Jewish law. But it is clearly not indicative of a problem large enough to smear the repute of Haredi Jews *as a group.*

By contrast, I have been the victim of crime by illegal Hispanics in my neighborhood here in the US. Illegal Hispanics have now killed more Americans than US troops have died in the War in Iraq. Illegal Hispanics have cost the US billions in property crime, clog our hospitals with health care costs and have gang activity in almost every community in our nation. And yet–the media refuses to acknowledge any of these real crimes as part of a illegal alien Hispanic problem despite the fact these crimes disproportionately represent Hispanic illegals. Heredi Jews not only fail to represent a disproportionate amount of bad behavior or criminal activity as a group–they are exemplary citizens.

Listen to this allegation: Maybe "most" Israelis would feel differently had they not been beaten
over the head by a small Jewish sect for the past 60 years as to what
constitutes proper Judaism. But how is this true? Huh? Everyone has a theological point of view and alas, I am not a Haredi Jew so as Mike argues with much accuracy–some of the theological arguments are not necessarily kosher. Orthodox Jews in general do not want mixed prayer at the Kotel–so this is majority rule. Jews want to honor Shabbot–this is not Haredi terrorism.

Again, it is the Left that is in my face all the time, telling how to live, what to eat, how to run my life–taking piles of cash out of my pocket without permission.

DavidK–this is classic selective outrage. Again and agin, you want to pick at the same old little scab–ignoring that real outrages that are killing us.
By Levitt8 7/10/09 at 2:50 p.m. UTC
"most Israelis, even if they are not religious themselves, know that authentic Judaism is of the traditional sort"

What exactly was authentic or traditional about these acts?

What is authentic or traditional about wearing a black pelt or fur hat in the middle of the Summer (much less any time)?

Maybe "most" Israelis would feel differently had they not been beaten over the head by a small Jewish sect for the past 60 years as to what constitutes proper Judaism.
By BrookeLynn 7/10/09 at 2:16 p.m. UTC
The answer: A parking lot, open on Shabbat, that just may encourage people to drive their car on the Sabbath.

If they are fundamentalists + a peaceful group, it seems the solution might be for them to simply move to a gated community where they could draw up bylaws & appropriate fines/penalities for those who are keeping their shops & businesses open at inappropriate times.
By mikewinddale 7/10/09 at 9:46 a.m. UTC
I’m a closeminded obscurantist fundamentalist Orthodox Jew, so I’d expect that Reform Jews know at least as much history as I do.
By mikewinddale 7/10/09 at 9:34 a.m. UTC
Regarding Reform, the following references to "Hertz" will be to R’ Dr. J. H. Hertz, "The New Paths I/II/III" (three sermons) in Affirmations of Judaism (Oxford, 1927):

– Geiger denounced milah in 1845, in his Nachgelassene Schriften, vi. 181. (Hertz p. 153.)
— The Chicago congregation of Geiger’s disciple, Emil Hirsch, resolved in 1885 that milah is not an essential condition for "admittance to membership in Sinai congregation." Similar is the resolution of the Annual Conference of American Liberal Rabbis in 1892. (Hertz p. 153.)
— Dr. J. Krauskopf of Philadelphia proposed that Passover be substituted with the celebration of Easter under the name of "Martyrs’ Day". Dr. Emil Hirsch argued that Sukkot was a "dying festival, a withered branch that should be cut off from the Tree of Judaism." Dr. J. Max Weiss of New York called for the abolition of Yom Kippur, saying "it makes for hypocrisy and fails to touch the consciences of men. It is one of the last remnants of our outworn institutions in the Jewish Faith. It is outworn and valueless, and weighted with gloominess." (Hertz. p. 155.)
— In 1849, Holdheim’s congregation in Berlin moved Shabbat to Sunday. Emil Hirsch in Chicago said, "The Sabbath of the Jew is dead; let us bury it. The Sunday must squarely and open be made the Sabbath." (Hertz p. 156.)
— Holdheim and many American congregations replaced the shofar with a cornet. (Hertz p. 162.)
— Dr. K. Kohler of HUC said, "The Jew’s religion is built not on the Bible nor on supernatural revelation. It rests neither on Moses nor on any authority. Must we still be cowed down by fear of the thunders of Sinai?" Dr. Krauskopf said, "We discard the belief that the Bible was written by God, or by man at the dictation of God, and that its teachings are therefore binding." C. G. Montefiore said, "We recognize no binding authority between us and God, whether in a man or in a book." (Hertz p. 163.)
— Dr. Emil Hirsch eliminated the Sefer Torah itself from his synagogue. (Hertz p. 163.)
— James W. Wise (Stephen Wise’s son) said that he cannot unequivocally declare whether or not there is a God, or whether there is an afterlife, or whether a religion has any need to perpetuate itself, or whether a religion can demand any sacrifices whatsoever from its adherents. (Hertz p. 166.)
— Dr. Stephen Wise and Emil Hirsch together arranged in 1910 that joint services be held between the synagogue and with the Church of the Messiah and the Church of the Divine Paternity. (Hertz p. 167.)
— Dr. Krauskopf spoke of the "inadequacy" and "narrowness" of Judaism, said, "Judaism is merely the ism of little Judea. We have outgrown it." He proceeded to urge his synagogue congregation to leave Judaism as a body. (Hertz p. 167.)
— C. G. Montefiore said that Jews must accept the New Testament as part of their Scriptures. (Hertz pp. 170, 180.) On p. 22 of Affirmations, R’ Hertz adduces the same of Montefiore, and on p. 17, we see also that Montefiore proposed the acceptance of the Christian deity as well.
— David Friedlander, in 1799, petitioned the Luthern authorities of Berlin to allow Reform Jews to convert to Christianity. (The Christians refused, because Friedlander wanted to allow the Jews to explain the Trinity in their own unique manner. The Christians didn’t want half-converts.) (Hertz. p. 178.)
— Dr. Charles Voysey, a former Anglican priest turned theist, said that the Reform Jews had an adulation for Jesus bordering on idolatry. (Hertz p. 179.) In response to a certain Jewish-Christian conference, a certain non-Jewish Cambridge professor (not named) remarked on how willingly and deliberately Jews seemed to renounce their own Jewishness. (Hertz pp. 167f.)
— Thanks to Rabbis(!) Leopold Stein of Frankfort and J. Stern of Stuffgart, who both said that shechitah is not a Jewish rite, the Swiss authorities determined that shechitah may be banned, as it indeed was soon enough by the Swiss. (Hertz pp. 181f.)
— In 1906, the Massachusetts Legislature considered granting Jews the right to open shop on Sunday (in contrast to the general prohibition), since they could not (by their own volition) be open on Saturday. Rabbi(!) Charles Fleishcher of Boston, however, convinced Massachusetts to not so allow Jews, since, Fleischer said, "Orthodox Jews have brought so many sacrifices for their religion, that it will do them no harm if they bring this additional sacrifices, and continue to close their shops on two days of the week." (Hertz p. 184.)
— Whereas American municipal hospitals offered kosher food, and municipal prisons did so as well, the Reform Jewish hospitals made no provision for kashrut, despite pleas that they do what the non-Jewish hospitals already did. (Hertz p. 184.)

And see Rabbi S. R. Hirsch’s "Religion Allied to Progress" in Judaism Eternal and in Collected Writings of S. R. Hirsch. Rabbi Hirsch shows that in the early 19th century, the German Reforms in Frankfurt successfully petitioned for the German authorities to ban all Talmud study. The Reformers didn’t merely stop studying Talmud themselves; they made sure no one else was allowed to either. I don’t think it is hard to tell that the Reformers were downright antithetical to anything Jewish. They used all the force of a Torquemada to ensure that if they weren’t ritually observance, then no one else would be either. Jeff, you say that this is not relevant to contemporary Reform. I fail to see why; Reform today still refers to itself by the same title and ordains its rabbis in the same HUC. Imagine someone 100 years from now called himself a Nazi but protested that he had no connection to Hitler. Or imagine if someone joined the KKK but insisted he was not racist towards blacks. Would this claim not be ridiculous? If anyone today voluntarily refers to himself as a "Reform" Jew and supports HUC, I fail to understand how he is not implicitly endorsing the historical activities of HUC and Reform. The best that can be said for such a person is that he is not aware of Reform’s past, but as soon as he becomes aware, I should fully expect that he renounce the title of "Reform." These are not merely incidental details; these details all strike at the heart of Reform Judaism. For a Reform Jew to call himself Reform but renounce these details, would be like a Christian renouncing belief in Jesus. Reform Judaism without all these details simply is not Reform Judaism, just as the KKK without racism is not the KKK and Nazism without Hitler is not Nazism.

———————————-

And I agree with you that Israel has been sending the wrong message. It stupifies me to no end that a country can insist it has nothing religiously Jewish about it, and yet nevertheless claim that it is a Jewish state. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If the Zionists said they wanted to divorce themselves from the Diaspora past (as indeed they said), and create a New non-Jewish Israeli, how then can they appeal to the Balfour Declaration, which calls for the creation of a Jewish state? How can they bring foreign dignitaries to Yad Vashem, which commemorates the death of Jews in the Holocaust? You cannot renounce your Jewishness and then appeal to the death of Jews in the Holocaust!

And I’m not sure which rabbi you’re referring to who "mekareved" me. Please point him out to me, because I haven’t met him yet.
By Jeff Eyges 7/10/09 at 8:48 a.m. UTC
I haven’t heard these stories about Geiger, Montefiore et. al., and frankly, I’m skeptical. However, I’ll concede that, 18th century German society being what it was, it’s conceivable that they said these things, or something similar. It doesn’t interest me, even to the point of looking up the references; it has nothing to do with Reform today.

Israel is a Jewish state, and I see no reason why institutions which,
from the perspective of Jewish history, are abberations of European
Jewish ruptures with tradition, should be given credence. If Israel is
a Jewish state, it should follow Jewish tradition and Jewish culture.
Simple… Anyone who discounts Jewish history and tradition and religion has no right to live in Israel

I’m really not at all interested in the insistence of the Orthodox upon defining what is and isn’t Judaism, and who is and is not Jewish. For that mattter, I’m not interested in your Orthodox bias. Israel shouldn’t be emulating America in terms of its secularism? Then they’ve been sending the rest of the world the wrong message for sixty years. Out of necessity, concessions were made to the religous factions. Those concessions have probably proven to be more harmful than not, but, in any case, it’s time to outgrow them. If Israel wants to be a Western-style democracy, it needs to get out of the kid’s end of the pool.

I can’t be bothered to deal with the rest – I’m in such complete disagreement with everything you’ve said that I can only view it as a frum-flavored diatribe. Go tell your rabbi I said he wound the tefillin too tightly when he mekareved you.

And, for the record – I am also one of those who sees circumcision as a barbaric custom, a form of mutilation that should no longer be tolerated. They’re attempting to do away with it in Europe, and if it were to come to a vote here in the US (although it never will), I’d vote against it. But don’t worry; I have no intention of applying for Israeli citizenship.
By mikewinddale 7/10/09 at 3:13 a.m. UTC
Some have noted that the Haredi crimes are far less serious than crimes which others have committed.

Of course, this is technically true.

But we are forgetting something: the Haredim are (1) Jews, and (2) pledge allegiance to the Torah. They ought to know better, they are held to a higher standard, and any actions of theirs (good or bad) shine a light on the Torah (kiddush hashem and hillul hashem).

Obviously, many people in the world commit many crimes. But most of those people are not Jews who have the Torah and who therefore ought to know better. And regardless, whatever crimes these people commit do not indicate anything about the Torah.

It is all this which points the Haredim in an *entirely* separate category. To compare them to others is irrelevant.

We see in the Nevi’im that the Jews committed many crimes, such as dishonesty in business and abusing the poor, but that the other nations were committing FAR more serious crimes – murder, human sacrifice, etc. So why were the Jews exiled and not the other nations? Because we’re Jews! "You alone of all nations have I known, and therefore I call you to account for your iniquities" – Amos.
By jasonbpear 7/10/09 at 12:39 a.m. UTC

David,

I’m not sure what you think the laws are in this country but it isclearly at least tortuous, if not illegal, in the United States of America tospit on someone. (Whether there is a law against such activity isirrelevant.) I suppose there is no speaking with certain people, and apparentlyyou had no interest as to my explanation re: why the crime rate in haradicommunities is irrelevant (e.g., because they don’t live with outsidersand the relevant action here has to do with interacting with outsiders).

I guess it doesn’t really matter, you clearly think that the"left" is "x, y, z" and is therefore wrong – for exampleyou mention that the "left" are "mean-spiritedand dangerous people out to ruin us at every turn. Generalized contemptfor the Left is justified and has a full context, it has a thick book ofoutrage." Of course, this suggests that you are justified for yourcontempt but no contempt for "the right" is appropriate. I feelbadly for you – I wish you well in your contempt filled life.

Regards,

jbp
By David Kelsey 7/9/09 at 11:16 p.m. UTC
David N. Friedman wrote,

The community is united against this behavior and you want me to promise that it will not happen again? Huh? There is no repeated pattern here.

Bull! There has been a significant problem of Chassidim spitting on Christian clergy. Women have been assaulted beaten on buses repeatedly, and never punished, and rarely caught, as the haredi community defends them and enables their escape. When a mentally ill father was prosecuted for KILLING his infant son via shake the baby, the haredim–in accordance with the Gedoylim assessment of the situation–rioted. Because clearly a frum Jew (no matter who disturbed) would never do such a thing. It was therefore deemed a plot by the secular to frame him–because he was frum! Orthodox women have repeatedly been bleached for only dressing Orthodox — not ultra-Orthodox.

When are you people going to admit there is a problem?
By David N. Friedman 7/9/09 at 6:56 p.m. UTC
without Hareidi bashing but condemning Haredi violence:

But then it would not be Jewcy. Haredi violence is not a big problem and I would need to know if there are regulations against spitting. I owudl not like to be spat upon.

David K–the fact that this incident is so roundly condemned is the relevant issue. When Yankel Rosenbaum was tracked downed and murdered–did you see black leaders rushing all over themselves to condemn the murder? For goodness sake–we are speaking about spitting here, not murder. This is more than a tad overboard–don’t you think? The community is united against this behavior and you want me to promise that it will not happen again? Huh? There is no repeated pattern here. While the Left loves a good protest–the Left will deny any legitimacy of protest when it comes from people they despise.

The facts are clear concerning the willingness to highlight in bold terms any bit of controversy from anyone in a black hat. Alas, I do not wear such a hat. I happily support and defend anyone’s legitimate right to speak up and be heard. At the same time–spitting is boorish, rude and unnecessary.

The fact that these neighborhoods are crime free is vitally relevant–it is the most important point I made. The entire issue must have a context and if there is no sub-plot and no context–only generalized contempt–this is insufficient. Therefore, the actions of these people is hardly representative of the community and the sin qua non of the criticism is to defame the COMMUNITY of Haredim. Look at the context for anger against the poltical left in Israel and in Israel. These are mean-spirited and dangerous people out to ruin us at every turn. Generalized contempt for the Left is justified and has a full context, it has a thick book of outrage. And yet, where is that generalized contempt for the Left? Why isn’t the monster Al Gore gored to obliviion? Instead, we have real contempt for Sarah Palin who has done nothing to hurt anyone and is not in a position to hurt anyone.

The contrast is overwleming. These individuals have been raked over the coals for their actions. Let’s move on to bigger problems than "Spitting Gate"
By Yisrael Medad 7/9/09 at 3:41 p.m. UTC
I have a different perspective, even without Hareidi bashing but condemning Haredi violence:

http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2009/07/reporters-brilliant-performance.html

Yisrael Medad

http://www.myrightword.blogspot.com
By mikewinddale 7/9/09 at 12:39 p.m. UTC
Personally, I’ve barely disagreed with anything Kelsey has ever said. If he hates Jews, so do I.
By Eli Valley 7/9/09 at 12:38 p.m. UTC
Why do you hate the Jews?
By mikewinddale 7/9/09 at 12:37 p.m. UTC
Therefore, what I am suggesting is an Orthodoxy – specifically, a Sephardi Orthodoxy – in which the desires and requests and needs of Reform are fully catered to by the Orthodox. For example, non-observant Reform candidates for conversion would be given Orthodox conversion by the Orthodox authorities, and thereby, the Reform would have all their desires met, albeit by the Orthodox authorities.

Actually, this seems superior to what we have today. Today, if Reform does a conversion, the Conservative will not recognize it, and neither will the Orthodox. But according to my plan – which has been offered by Orthodox authorities before me – the Reform would have all their conversions recognized, because they’d be performed by Orthodox rabbis.

In the end, rather than disenfranchising the Reform, I’ll actually doing quite the opposite!
By mikewinddale 7/9/09 at 12:33 p.m. UTC
But realize, I’m not saying that Reform Jews should not be allowed to form their own congregations, hire their own rabbis, etc. Christians and Muslims can do this, and surely Reform should be allowed to as well.

But why should Reform be able to perform its own conversions that are recognized as Jewish by the state? Christians in Israel, for example, may perform conversions, but the state will not recognize the converts as Jews. Muslims in Israel can also perform conversions, but these too will not be recognized as Jews. Reform Judaism itself repudiates Jewish law, so how can they perform conversions according to the very law which they reject?
By mikewinddale 7/9/09 at 12:25 p.m. UTC

Jeff Eyges said,

> Mike, I couldn’t disagree with you more. You’re willing

> to disenfranchise the vast majority of world Jewry, and

> you paint a caricature of Reform. This is simply Orthodox

> triumphalism.

First, I didn’t paint a caricature. Look at the early activites of Reform Judaism; Geiger said milah is a barbaric ritual and Friedlander wanted all the Jews to convert to Christianity. Montefiore said Jews should accept Jesus and the Gospels, and more Reform leaders than one can count discounted such things as the Torah being Sinaitic and Jewish law being binding. (Conservative says Jewish law is binding, albeit they disagree on just what Jewish law says. Reform, on the other hand, discounts Jewish law altogether. Such a stance is rather strange, of course; every society views its own laws as binding, and Jewish law is of course not very different from secular law. For this reason, I find Reform’s opinion to be particularly egregious. Conservative at least formally recognized that Jewish law per se is binding.) Geiger said that the Talmud has to go completely, while the Tanakh must go as a Sinaitic/Divine work. Even secular Jewish academics today would say that the Talmud is a Jewish work and the legitimate expression of Jewish culture and thought, even if it is not legally binding in their opinion; by contrast, Geiger wished to do away with the work altogether, and consign it wholly to the dustbin. If you can find any historical inaccuracy in the above, please, by all means, point my mistakes out.

Israel is a Jewish state, and I see no reason why institutions which, from the perspective of Jewish history, are abberations of European Jewish ruptures with tradition, should be given credence. If Israel is a Jewish state, it should follow Jewish tradition and Jewish culture. Simple.

Moreover, America is unique in having no established religion, and I don’t believe other nations have any obligation to imitate America. Israel is a Jewish country, and if not Jewish, it is still Middle-Eastern and Mediterranean. I think the Ottoman millet system is still far more applicable to Israel than any sort of Western individualism.

The early Zionists, of course, declared that they wanted to establish Israel as a new secular nation with no ties to the Diaspora. Besides being ridiculous – who can wipe out their past and recreate themselves anew with no baggage? – and besides being utterly disrespectful and shameful culturally and religiously, this attempt by the Zionists is also dangerous politically. If we have no connection to our Diaspora past, then pray tell, what right do we have to dispossess the Arabs? Only if as Jews we are coming as the original inhabitants of the land do we have any right whatsoever to live in Israel. Anyone who discounts Jewish history and tradition and religion has no right to live in Israel, if we view matters from this perspective.
By David Kelsey 7/9/09 at 12:09 p.m. UTC
David Friedman,

No Haredi leader was responsible for such an incident.

That isn’t true. And if we are told which sects the protestors are predominantly from, we will find exactly which haredi leaders are the most responsible.

There is no Haredi rabbi who spread leaflets encouraging people in the community to act in this manner.

That isn’t how Haredi rabbis encourage mob behavior. They do so quietly and verbally.

Asa control experiment, when big groups of black Americans riot–and someone says something about riotous blacks, the left is equally quick to pounce on the accusation and declare that this is not the actions of a whole segment of society–this is only the action of individuals.

A false analogy. No one is saying "Jews" — we are talking about a religious and political group of Jews based on adherence to specific ideology.

While there is justification for seeing much higher crime numbers in black and Muslim neighborhoods–for example–we must be very hush hush about it.

I am not part of those communities. If I were, I would speak up more frequently about that. Having said that, I have hardly been "hush hush" about those realities. The fact that you are accusing me of failing to speak up against Muslim fundamentalism is quite funny, actually. I’m quite outspoken about the threat of Islamicism.

My Rabbi denounces…

Oh, for crying out loud.
By jasonbpear 7/9/09 at 12:07 p.m. UTC

Jeff,

I agree with your primary points here. I would add afew points:

1- there is a meaningful difference between "the haradicommunity" in Israel (or elsewhere) and the other communities that Davidmentions. Anyone who knows anything about these communities knows how close-knitand small haradi communities are – suggesting a significantly greater tiebetween the leaders of that community and the leaders of, say, the blackcommunity in a major American city, say Newark (I concede that Muslimcommunities in Europe may be closely tied, but is, of course, a completely erroneouspoint).

2 – I have no idea why David mentions the crime rate ofharadi communities generally. This point is completely irrelevant and offpoint – of course we could discuss potential abuses of government services inboth Israel and America (but I assume he means violent crime) but even so thebehavior of the community generally is not the point of the report’s comment.The reporter spoke about (1) her own experiences in this community and(2) violence against outsiders, e.g., none members ofthe group (please note that haradi communities are generally notcomposed of outsiders and therefore criminal statistics are largely irrelevantto determine this statistic). As such, these are the relevant issues inthis case.

3 – I truly hope that the rabbis that David mentions aredoing their part to combat this disgusting display. I am unaware ofpublic condemnation of large segments of the haradi community but I hope thatthere has been and will continue to be such condemnation.

Regards,

jbp
By Jeff Eyges 7/9/09 at 11:34 a.m. UTC
Mike, I couldn’t disagree with you more. You’re willing to disenfranchise the vast majority of world Jewry, and you paint a caricature of Reform. This is simply Orthodox triumphalism.
By Empress Trudy 7/9/09 at 11:01 a.m. UTC
A reporter wades into the middle of a riot, and then complains that these black hats are actually worse than the Timor war where upwards of a half million civilians were massacred? Are you sure you want to go that way, because while I can appreciate the post-hipster ironic vaguely anti zionist ethos that is Jewcy, I have to say that blockheaded racism like Ms. Barker’s is a stretch, even for that.
By Jeff Eyges 7/9/09 at 10:59 a.m. UTC
David, this is why I told you we wouldn’t have anything to talk about.

What you said comes down to this, essentially:

1. Hareidim rarely behave badly.

2. When they do:

     a. It’s only a few miscreants

     b. Their leaders aren’t responsible

   c. They aren’t as bad as the goyim/blacks/Muslims/whoever

3. The Lefties are picking on us!

4. In the final analysis, Hareidm are still better than you.

And if it were true that "the response from the Orthodox community has been very strong and united against this kind of ant-Shabbos violence", it would have stopped a long time ago.
By David N. Friedman 7/9/09 at 7:26 a.m. UTC
OK–David K–you and your pals at FailedMessiah have a grand incident to prey upon. Mazel Tov. You have a firm foundation in this legitimate molehill to make your mountain. Indeed this mountain has been made.

But it is clearly not a mountain based upon the principle that no one should act in a boorish manner. It is only one that is premised about tarring the Haredim as a group.

No Haredi leader was responsible for such an incident. There is no Haredi rabbi who spread leaflets encouraging people in the community to act in this manner. These are the bad actions of individuals. How does the Left describe these actions–easy–reflexively–they are the described actions of a despicable group of human beings–the supposed lowest of the low–the GROUP of those "Ultra-Orthodox Jews!!!

Asa control experiment, when big groups of black Americans riot–and someone says something about riotous blacks, the left is equally quick to pounce on the accusation and declare that this is not the actions of a whole segment of society–this is only the action of individuals. When Muslims riot in France–sorry, these would not be incidents where one person is spat upon, this would be massive violence against property, cars burnt, people threatened–basic mob rule–this is not to be reported as riotous Muslims–nope, this is merely isolated individual riots–not Muslin ncrime but incidental crime.

So, David–let’s get down to the numbers here. Please tell us about the crime in Haredi neighborhoods–please state the facts concerning all crime–tell us if there is more or less crime in those Jerusalem neighborhoods tha there is, say in a basic Tel Aviv neighborhood. While there is justification for seeing much higher crime numbers in black and Muslim neighborhoods–for example–we must be very hush hush about it. But where there is very little crime in a Haredi neighborhood–we must quickly sharpen our swords and let those Haredi have it with everyting we can muster–do I have it right?

Now, the punch line here is that the response from the Orthodox community has been very strong and united against this kind of ant-Shabbos violence. My Rabbi denounces it as clearly counter-productive and the wrong approach. The action has been condemned thoroughly. The punch line here is that the reflexes of our community are correct and intact.
By mikewinddale 7/9/09 at 1:58 a.m. UTC
We can go further than decrying only violence.

Moshe Feiglin, when he founded Zo Artzeinu ("This is Our Land"), began by protesting Oslo via non-violent protest, such as by blocking roads.

However, he soon realized, he says, that non-violent protest wasn’t earning him any friends in Israel. It only annoyed people and detracted from his cause.

So he disbanded Zo Artzeinu and founded Manhigut Yehudit ("Jewish Leadership"), where he nows tries to get into Knesset via public speeches, newspaper op-eds and articles, etc. So far, it’s worked quite well; in the Likud primaries, he got 20th, enough to earn a guaranteed spot in the Knesset. Only because Netanyahu tampered with the election results is Feiglin not in the Knesset.
By Jewocracy 7/8/09 at 8:22 p.m. UTC
Violence contrary to popular belief is never a way to get people to really respect a viewpoint. Taking someone aside and explaining gently why what they may be doing is personally offensive seem to me a better path.
By mikewinddale 7/8/09 at 1:00 p.m. UTC
I have written an essay on this topic, but as it is currently running 42 pages, I have had some difficulty finding anyone interested in it. Incidentally, it is now precisely 42 pages thanks to an addition which LauraP just inspired me to make in the last few minutes. Thank you then, LauraP.
By mikewinddale 7/8/09 at 11:57 a.m. UTC
LauraP,

Please don’t misunderstand. I completely sympathize with you, and everything which you despise in the Haredim, I equally despite myself. Please do not mistake me for having the slightest shred of sympathy for the Haredim; I rather believe the Haredim are a despicable stain on Israel.

But I don’t think the solution is to import a foreign innovation of European Jewry, one which sought a painful and strained accomodation and coexistence between Jewishness and the outside gentile society.

I rather think we should seek to strengthen traditional Orthodox Judaism. This traditional – i.e. Sephardi – form of Judaism always was able to accomodate all strata of Jewish society, religious and not. As Daniel Elazar and Rabbi Angel both noted, Sephardi rabbinical authorities always accomodated the less observant members of Jewish society, allowing the official leadership and culture to be Orthodox even as individual members were free to be as observant or non-observant as they chose.
By mikewinddale 7/8/09 at 11:50 a.m. UTC
LauraP,

What we should realize, however, is that most Israelis are far more traditional in matters of religion than American Jews. Except for the Israeli far-left – the volume of whose voice is far in excess (proportionally) to its numbers – most Israelis, even if they are not religious themselves, know that authentic Judaism is of the traditional sort.

At least half of Israel, for example, is Sephardic. And as Daniel J. Elazar writes in "Can Sephardic Judaism be Reconstructed?" (http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm): "[W]e see today that in the Mediterranean countries the Protestant approach to religion with its search for consistency between belief and action continues to do poorly. As a rule, Mediterranean peoples believe that they must formally be faithful to the traditions of their fathers although reserving to themselves the right to determine how they individually will maintain those traditions. In contemporary times, this has become the way in which many Sephardim conduct their lives. Today there are more than a few Sephardim who eat every kind of halakhic abomination while providing support for the most ultra-Orthodox Sephardic yeshivot (rather than more "modern" institutions) and who regularly visit (with checkbook in hand) wonder-working rabbis of the old school to obtain their blessings.This is an extreme expression of this "Mediterranean" phenomenon, and one should note that it was not the way of classic Sephardic Judaism."

Similarly, Rabbi Dr. Marc Angel, in "Religious Zionism and the Non-Orthodox" (http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1438) writes: "… Whereas denominationalism within Judaism is a creation of European Jewry, the majority of the Jewish population in Israel is composed of Jews of African and Asian backgrounds. … Now, some people want to introduce non-Orthodox movements into Israeli life. No doubt, they will attempt to attract Jews of African and Asian backgrounds to these movements, just as all the other European-oriented movements have tried to win them over. Yet, is it not morally irresponsible and reprehensible to try to draw people away from their own religious traditions? … In contrast to the European and American experience, the Sephardic communities in Moslem lands did not develop nonOrthodox movements. Indeed, attempts to divide Sephardic communities on ideological lines are antithetical to the Sephardic religious sensibility. There were, to be sure, individual Sephardim who were not fully observant of halakhah and/or had their doubts about the premises of traditional faith. Nevertheless, Sephardic communities maintained reverence for tradition. Even when the societies in which they lived began to westernize, and when more Sephardim moved away from traditional observance -even then there was no attempt to organize non-Orthodox movements or to establish non-Orthodox synagogues. The importation of non-Orthodox movements into Israel, therefore, is something which should be resented and repudiated by the vast majority of Israelis. These movements represent the fears and insecurities of Jews in the Golah of Europe and America. … It is possible to combat the spread of non-Orthodox movements in Israel not by head to head confrontation with them, but by making a case to Israeli society that it is not desirable to import Diaspora ideologies which developed due to Jewish weakness vis-a-vis the non-Jewish European and American societies."

————————–

Frankly, Israel has no need for a way for people to be "Germans of the Mosaic persuasion." Israelis are Jews already; they don’t need a way to express a token Jewish identity while predominately belonging to the non-Jewish wider society of the host nation. Reform Judaism began as a way for Jews to retain some token expression of their Jewishness even as they mostly de-Judaized themselves.

(I am considerably understating matters. Mr. C. G. Montefiore, one of the leaders of Reform, openly said that Reform Jews needed to adopt Jesus as their G-d and the Christian Bible as their Scriptures. Other Reform leaders quite openly said that all Jewish practices and holidays and customs were meaningless anymore to Jews. David Friedlander, one of the leaders of early Reform, advocated conversion to Christianity, and asked the Christian church to allow the Jews to convert to Christianity, with the proviso that the Jews wouldn’t have to believe in Jesus. See "The New Paths" by Rabbi Dr. J. H. Hertz for more details. I have not even mentioned the fact that early Reform petitioned the German government to outlaw all Talmudic study; Orthodox Jews were forbidden to study Talmud, the penalty being a monetary fine and expulsion from the city. For this, see Rabbi S. R. Hirsch, "Religion Allied to Progress". Also, as Rabbi Hertz (op. cit.) shows, the banning of Jewish ritual slaughter in Switzerland, and the inability of Jewish merchants to open their shops on Sunday – forcing them to be closed two days a week rather than only on Shabbat – in Massachusetts, are both due singularly to the efforts of Reform leaders. Religious intolerance reaches some of its highest and grandest peaks in Reform Judaism.)

I think the solution is not to dethrone Orthodox Judaism in Israel, but rather, to dethrone ULTRA-Orthodoxy in Israel. As Professor Menachem Friedman, the foremost sociologist and historian of Ultra-Orthodoxy shows, the Ultra-Orthodox, in actual point of fact, have very little in common with pre-Holocaust Eastern European Orthodoxy. Friedman explictly says that he doubts the authentic Ashkenazi Eastern-European character of Ultra-Orthodoxy.

Similarly, Professor Marc Shapiro, in "The Moroccan Rabbinic Conferences" (http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/moroccan-rabbinic-conferences) writes, "It is a truism that with the Emancipation and the rise of Reform and, later, Conservative Judaism, options for halakhic flexibility became much more limited. In the midst of a battle against the non-Orthodox movements, traditional Judaism retreated into a conservative mold both as a means of distinguishing itself from the non-Orthodox and out of a fear that in an era of halakhic crisis, any liberality in halakhic decision-making could encourage non-Orthodox trends. This latter sentiment was always on the minds of halakhists, even those who did not adopt lock, stock, and barrel R. Moses Sofer’s famous bon mot, "Anything new is forbidden by the Torah." The above description is accurate, however, only with regard to the Ashkenazic world. The Sephardic world never had to contend with non-Orthodox religious movements, and thus it was able to develop in a much more natural-one might say organic-fashion. In particular, this was the case in Morocco, a community that had a very old halakhic tradition and whose scholars produced numerous works of responsa."

Why should Israel import Reform Judaism, a diaspora abberation, when it could just as well outst and dethrone Ultra-Orthodoxy, and in its stead emplace Sephardic Orthodoxy, which was "able to develop in a much more natural-one might say organic-fashion" than Ultra-Orthodoxy?

According to the Sephardic form of Judaism, women – religious or not, observant or not – would have ready access to marriage and divorce, without misogynistic discrimation. Rabbi Angel writes, on a few occasions, that in Balkan countries, Sephardi Jews used to let women sing solo, in the presence of men, Ladino romance ballads. Similarly, Rabbi Avraham Shamma notes that Egyptian Orthodox Jews used to attend the concerts of Umm Kalthum, Egypt’s most famous female singer; Rabbi Shamma furthermore notes that his Syrian parents had no objections to listening to women sing. So when we hear of religiously observant IDF soldiers refusing to listen to women sing, we must realize that this fear of the opposite sex is exclusive to misguided Ashkenazim.

Similarly, as Rabbi Angel and Professor Zvi Zohar have shown, Sephardim are much more lenient on conversion than Ashkenazim. See the sources I bibliographically list at http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/laundry-list-of-sources-relating-to.html. So all of the conversion issues we see today in Israel, would disappear if Sephardi Orthodox were ascendant. According to most Sephardi authorities, anyone desirous of conversion can receive Orthodox conversion, even if the candidate has no plans to be personally observant.
By LauraP 7/8/09 at 8:04 a.m. UTC
I’d love to see the Israeli govenment stop pandering to the lunatic fringe. The Orthodox have a disproportionate influence in Israel. Live up to democratic ideals:

Allow and support other ways of being Jewish (instead of perpetuating the myth that religious = Orthodox). Most Jews are Conservative or Reform. Give those Rabbis room to operate. Accept Conservative and Reform conversions, marriages. Give an option for civil marriage, burial in Israel so secular Israelis don’t have to jump through Haredi hoops if they want to marry or have a funeral. Stop exempting the Yeshiva crowd from military duty. Don’t allow them to pressure women into having to sit at the back of the bus in Jerusalem (risking assault if they don’t comply) on public transportation. If they can’t deal with riding a bus with women, let them walk. Repeal the idiotic decision (totally pandering to their demands) making the "crime" of women praying with Tallit or a Torah at the Kotel punishable with 7 years in prison. Every time their delicate sensibilities are offended, the Haredi attack like a bunch of animals, with no regard for civil law or basic human kindness or decency. Call them on it. Support a different picture of what "religious" Judaism is, one that actually reflects the majority of Jews and that isn’t inherently at odds with an open, democratic society. Let everyone know that religious freedom does not mean the freedom to forcibly prevent other people from making different choices.

Shalom!
By Zeevico 7/6/09 at 9:29 p.m. UTC
What are you looking for, Laura?

These acts are sickening, no question about it. But the only way to prevent them is through social change. I’m sure the (likely secular) police has every incentive to enforce the law against rioters, regardless of their religious background. The trouble is that some members of the ultra-orthodox are unwilling to change their behaviour or raise their children properly. It is no surprise that they are willing to turn a blind eye or encourage this sort of behaviour either. Really, the Israelis are tasked with the integration of those ultra-orthodox who reject democratic politics into their democratic society.
By LauraP 7/6/09 at 8:47 p.m. UTC
I must admit that incidents like this (as well as a few other issues) have colored my feelings about Israel. This turning a blind eye and allowing fanatics to bully and persecute others is unacceptable. Until the day that Israel lives up to its reputation as a democratic country with laws and puts these bozos in the pokey for assaulting women (an all to usual occurrence in Jerusalem) they wont see a penny of support from me. This sort of behavior is shameful and does more to tear down Judaism than any "desecration" of Shabbat. Amazingly, these men do not think that criminally assaulting and terrorizing a woman is a no-no for Shabbat. And there you have the inherent immorality of fanaticism.

Shalom!
By JoshuaZ 7/6/09 at 6:10 p.m. UTC
The most fascinating thing here is that it is difficult to make a coherent argument that a tape recorder on Shabbat violates anything other rabbinic injunctions. So the charedim here can’t even claim that they were responding to a direct issue from the Torah even if they thought the person was Jewish. This is a failure at so many different levels it almost isn’t funny.
By BrookeLynn 7/6/09 at 3:12 p.m. UTC
It’s inexcusable, disgusting, angry mob-mentality behavior. David, you’ve found a story everyone can agree on!
By Lori Gross 7/6/09 at 2:25 p.m. UTC
During the 2007 Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem I went — dressed appropriately — with my camera to document the burning of massive trash basins in Mea Sharim. I was focusing in on two cheder boys who couldn’t have been older than nine, feeding a 12-foot high fire in one of these basins. A man I’m assuming was affiliated with the cheder appeared behind me, and said "lo caday lach letzalem po" — roughly, "I wouldn’t advise you to photograph here." Perceiving that as a veiled threat, I played the witless American, and asked the man why in English. The answer I got was "because."

Because what? Was it not advisable to photograph there because there was a mob of cheder teachers inside ready to pounce on me if I continued to document their gross negligence in letting children feed an inferno?