Religion & Beliefs

Herod the Jew

According to the HuffPo, an Israeli archaeologist has found the tomb of King Herod.    King Herod?    King Herod: the Jewish proxy ruler of the Holy Land under imperial Roman occupation from 37 B.C. His most famous construction project was … Read More

By / May 9, 2007

According to the HuffPo, an Israeli archaeologist has found the tomb of King Herod.   

King Herod?   

King Herod:

the Jewish proxy ruler of the Holy Land under imperial Roman occupation from 37 B.C. His most famous construction project was expanding the Jewish Second Temple in Jerusalem.

 I was a little surprised, reading the story,  to find out: 

…among key clues were that the sarcophagus was placed on a raised platform rather than in the underground tombs used for those of lesser rank, and that in accordance with Jewish religious law, it was not decorated with any human image.

Hmmmm.   See, my understanding of Herod (based on Josh Mostel’s portrayal of him as an obese  bagel-hurling  sunbather in Jesus Christ Superstar, and supplemented only with cliffsnotes to Josephus) is that he was a twisted mess of a man.  Credited with the Slaughter of the Innocents, and a complete puppet of Rome.  So it surprised me to think that he might have actually BEEN a Jew.

And this made me wonder why I  know nothing about him as a Jew.  Is his involvement with the story of Jesus the reason?  Did his importance for Christianity obliterate any interest we might have in the fact that he explanded the second temple?

Well, according to this site, the Talmud says: 

“Herod was a slave of the house of the Hasmoneans. He had set his eyes on a certain young girl [from that family]. One day he heard a Heavenly voice that said: ‘Any slave that revolts now will succeed’. He rose and killed all of his masters but left that girl alive. When she saw that he wanted to marry her, she ascended to the roof and raised her voice saying: ’Whoever comes and says: I am descended from the house of the Hasmoneans is a slave, for no one was left from them except this maiden (herself) and this girl is hurling herself from the roof to the ground’ (then she killed herself)”.

 Pretty interesting, right?  I mean, he sounds like an awful guy, but he’s in the Talmud, yo!  That seems worth knowing. And this site goes into great detail about how the Jews of the time felt about him:  |

All the worldly pomp and splendor which made Herod popular among the pagans, however, rendered him abhorrent to the Jews, who could not forgive him for insulting their religious feelings by forcing upon them heathen games and combats with wild animals. The annexation to Judea of the districts of Trachonitis, Batanea, Auranitis, Zenodorus, Ulatha, and Panias, which Herod through his adulations had obtained from Augustus, could not atone for his crimes. In the eyes of the pious Jew Herod's government was not better than that of Antiochus Epiphanes. Like him, but by other means, Herod endeavored to Hellenize Judea.

 So there we go… we actually know a lot about Herod, and he was a Jewish leader (albeit a bad one).  We just don’t talk about him, despite the fact that everyone else does…

  • Jonathan

    Joey,

    Well, I can’t speak for the ultra orthodox and my own view is that we can’t explain the holocaust because we’re Job, not G-d.

    That said, I can come up with lots of theories that don’t blame it on secular Jews, but might be consistent with a literalist view. How about the sinat chinam between the various orthodox Jewish communities or other failings within their own community? That might be more consistent with an ultra orthodox world view (except for the Neturie Karta and other real extremists.) The idea that failings of orthodox leadership somehow caused the holocaust could be consistent with the view that the second temple was destroyed due to the conduct of the sages and priests, not the common Jew

    As I said, I don’t think we can explain the Holocaust, but I don’t think the predominent ultra orthodox veiw is that it was caused by secular Jews.

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Jonathan,

    Well I suppose it's not particularly sophisticated or much of a diplomatic gambit to the unaffiliated world. But how else do the ultra-orthodox approach the Holocaust? How can it be made to fit into their view of history? Was Hitler a departure from past persecutors in some way, more than just the latest Haman? Seems like there'd be a lot of conceptual momentum pushing them toward the "once again we strayed, and once again were made to suffer for it" POV, and no obvious alternative presenting itself in its stead.    

  • invisible_hand

    for real historical information, never ever rely on aish hatorah.
    for the latest in an historical study of herod, check out the work of seth schwartz. he has published a few articles on him, and he is currently completing a book on herod. until then, check out the cambridge history he wrote.

  • Jonathan

    Joey,

    Ok, I hear you. I think the approach you describe for “they” is a literalist and unsophisticated approach that is not shared by modern orthodox or many ultra orthodox groups. Anon was attributing that view to Aish, I thought. While I’m sure that some ultra orthodox may believe the Holocaust was caused by secular Jews transgressions, I would like to think they have a more sophisticated approach. Maybe I’ve only met the “enlightened” charedi :)

    Cheers

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Jonathan, "they" are whoever happened to have said it to the anon who mentioned it. There are plenty who think along those lines, and it's not a particularly surprising thing for an ultra-Orthodox Jew to believe, is it?

    When I was in first or second grade Temple Beth Am Academy in Los Angeles, we played a video game in which each level was a different historical Jewish persecutor. You passed a level by reaching to Torah, where your character was safe. I remember that the Cossacks were the hardest level. There were no Nazis, but the concept was easy for everyone to understand. The Torah was the tree of life and the rock of ages…when Jews held fast to it, we were safe and happy. When we strayed, we found catastrophe. It's all pretty standard, no? Anything you won't find expressed in numerous places in the Tanakh?

    I don't mind their telling me, and it didn't bother me as a teenager, either. It didn't feel any different from having Christian friends who'd been taught that I would burn in the hellfiires for eternity unless I found salvation through Jesus. The take-home message always seemed to be that lots of people have wild ideas about how the world works, and that sometimes they cast you sight unseen in a more significant role than seems entirely reasonable.

  • Jonathan

    Joey–who are “they”? I’ve been to many Aish and other right wing kiruv programs and never heard someone say that secular Jews caused the Holocaust.

    I know that some Jews blame the Holocaust on zionist Jews, secular Jews, religious Jews, etc., but those are individual, not organizations or even leaders of Aish.

  • Michael Nehora

    …doesn't make it right for them to say it.  Especially to Jews who are paying their meal ticket.

    As for extremist opinions only being the word of one isolated individual…while at Brandeis, I attended a shiur (lesson) given by a senior Aish rabbi, as a prelude to their Discovery weekend.  Well, it wasn't actually a shiur;  it was more his predictions of upcoming geopolitical events, culminating in the destruction (God forbid) of the State of Israel.  Then–get this–he concluded by saying that would be a good thing, as it would mean the majority of Diaspora Jews whose only Jewish connection is support for Israel would fade away, leaving behind a remnant of Torah-true Jews who are in it for the mitzvot.

    So no, I don't think it's just one bad apple at Aish who has extremist opinions. 

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Anonymous, they say that non-practicing Jews caused the Holocaust because that's what they believe. That's a classic Jewish way of making sense of our "lachrymose" history…we're being made to suffer because we've strayed from the Torah. They're not lying to you, they're telling you how they view it. Same with their approach to Jewish history. 

  • Jonathan

    Don’t blame an entire organization of good people for the stupid statements of one individual. Aish does a lot of good work and I doubt their position is that the Holocaust occured because of secular Jews. That sounds more like what one of Job’s “friends” would say…

  • Anonymous

    but how could i possibly believe a word anyone from aish has to say about jewish history if they tell people that Jews like myself are the reason for the holocaust…what other rubbish are they telling people

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Well yeah, they're nuts. But they're a pretty feckin' good resource for the traditional Jewish view of Jewish history.

  • Yezevel’s Husband

    there is an important Halacha that dates to this period, that of Jewish lineage being passed through the Mother, whereas prior to that Jewish lineage passed only through the father( which makes sense given that the Torah is concerned only with male descendants ). You see, Herod had a Jewish princess for a wife, by the name of Mary, and he wanted his children to be recognized as Israelites, where by all existing standards of the time they were certainly not.

  • Anonymous

    I wouldnt go by a single thing Aish tells anyone. I was lucky enough to be on a trip to Israel through Aish and the leaders of the program said, and I quote “the holocaust occured b/c of secular jews” yeah…that was a great trip, being as I am a secular Jew.

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Nope, not from the internetz, this comes straight from the mouths of the Old City Aish haTorah ultra-ortho proselytizers with whom I spent so many satisfying evenings. And yeah, word was that Herod's people, the Idumeans (of Bibilical Edom, yes) were forcibly converted, and that this somehow accounted for Herod's wickedness. Take it up with them.

    I could actually do a quick trawl of the web to jog my memory, but instead I'll just say what seems obvious: Idumean is almost certainly not a "misspelling" of Edomite. Did the population of the region have an official Anglophone spelling that they preferred? Or were the terms transliterated from Near Eastern languages to Greek, Germanic, and other languages over time? Yeah, probably.

  • Yezevel’s Husband

    Herod was not Jewish, he as an Edomite.

    “The problem is that Herod was the child or grandchild of Idumeans who were forcibly converted to Judaism” here Joey is mindlessly repeating stuff he reads on the Interweb. Anyone who has any grasp of the subject knows that the Idumeans is a misspelling of Edomite. There was a faction of Jews who accepted an Edomite king as their ruler, and some today still believe that the second temple( built by a non-jew descendant of Esau ) was ‘holier’ than the first temple built by Solomon. Also there is a section in the Talmud that states that some Amalekites impersonated Jews when they returned from Babylon and have been amongst them ever since.

  • Anonymous

    Herod is mostly remembered negatively by Christians, for a “massacre” not supported by historical evidence. Josephus and other sources claim that Herod was a talented ruler, who saved the nation from famine and strengthened its defenses.
    If you’re gonna condemn him for something, its better to point out that he was a proxy ruler for the Romans and a stepping stone away from Jewish self-determination. As a leader, he was alright.

  • Anonymous

    You mean Jesus Christ Superstar is not completely accurate? from the Pocono Playhouse to theatre in Philadelphia that was always one of my favorites. I thought I learned everything I needed to know about Christianity from that show. I still wonder if we all wouldn’t have been better off if Jesus hadn’t just followed Simon Zealotes advice. I still hear that song in my head right now.

  • Michael Nehora

    "my understanding of Herod (based on Josh Mostel’s portrayal of him as an obese bagel-hurling sunbather in Jesus Christ Superstar"

    And  let's not forget his portrayal in The Passion of the Christ as a grossly stereotypical effeminate cross-dresser, complete with similarly-attired hangers-on laughing like maniacs.  I subsequently learned that the portrayal of King H. as a decadent and, er, flamboyant sort was in fact traditional in Passion plays.

  • Laurel Snyder

    Is it possible that Josephus recorded somewhere that Agrippa had sex with his mom, and then pickled her in brine so he could "keep the realtionship going" after he had her killed?

    I can't beleive that's true, but I remember it, in a dorm-room fog…

    And I don't want to think I'd have made that up!

    xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Right, it would have to be Herod II in the JB/Salome story, because the Temple-building Herod died not long after the massacre of the innocents.

  • Laurel Snyder

    I think I had a messed up sense of him in part because in the years I was taking Jewish studies classes and partying too hard, I learned some things that got muddled in my head.  Mixed up Herod with Agrippa, buddy to Caligula and a sick (maybe Messianic fuck).  I remember some vague incestous  stories, and something about having sex with corpses.

    Then too, he killed off a lot of Jews before he died, but I don't know enough about that…

    xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

  • dixonh2

     

    "Herod the Great was born and raised in a wealthy, influential Idumaean family. The Idumaeans, successors to the Edomites of the Hebrew Bible, settled in Idumea, formerly known as Edom, in southern Judea. When the Maccabean John Hyrcanus conquered Idumea in 140–130 BC, he required all Idumaeans to obey Jewish law or to leave; most Idumaeans thus converted to Judaism.

    King Herod identified himself as a Jew and was considered as such by his contemporaries.[2] This religious self-identification notwithstanding, the Herodians were to a large extent Hellenistic in culture, which would have earned them the antipathy of observant Jews.[3] "

    Go to http://www.wikipedia.com, search on Herod the Great.

    He restored and expanded the Second Temple.By Jesus day it was one of the great wonders of ther ancient world. Some observers think he was a secularized, unprincipled scoundrel. But he sure was a builder.Died about 4BCE

     

    BTW: The reference to Herod and Salome  may refer to Herod Agrippa ( Died 44ce), I believe, not Herod the Great ( d.4bce) http://www.wikipedia.com, search  on Herod Agrippa

  • Joey Kurtzman

    Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem seem pretty proud of Herod. for the reason you suggest: The wall is from Herod's Temple. And I've heard him described there in generally positive terms, i.e. "he may have been a puppet, but he was a defiant puppet" etc.

    The problem is that Herod was the child or grandchild of Idumeans who were forcibly converted to Judaism, which is a big no-no, and I guess caused no end of bad karma. The Salome/John the Baptist story is consistently sexy. I saw the Oscar Wilde play in Dublin, and Herod was a likeable, good-spirited cad, Salome was a despicable, seductive gawky dancing hoochy, and John the Baptist ended up with his severed head on a platter. Quality.