Religion & Beliefs
The Heretic: Modesty Patrols and Vigilante Violence
By Shmarya Rosenberg / August 6, 2008
Not too long ago, a woman sat in the ‘wrong’ section of a public bus. A group of men asked her to move to the back. She refused. The men became more insistent. She still refused. Infuriated, the men punched, kicked and beat her. The bus driver did not interfere or call police. Did this happen in America’s Deep South? In Taliban-controlled Kabul? In some Third World backwater? No. It happened in Israel, and it is not an isolated incident. The men who beat that woman are ultra-Orthodox. The woman herself is Orthodox. Her ‘crime’? She refused to sit in the section of the bus designated for women. Ultra-Orthodoxy demands strict separation of the sexes. Men and women sit apart at weddings, family dinners, public gatherings, and in synagogue. Unmarried ultra-Orthodox men do not converse with women they are not closely related to. They have never held a woman’s hand or stolen a kiss, let alone "hooked up." Married ultra-Orthodox men follow the same restrictions. Even contact with their wives is closely regulated. This hyper-segregation has now spilled over into Israel’s system of public transport. The ultra-Orthodox are demanding – and getting – separate seating on public buses. And, even though compliance with this segregation is supposed to be voluntary, increasingly the ultra-Orthodox choose to act as if it were mandatory, and as if they have the legal right to use coercion and brute force to achieve it. This rigid separation of the sexes is combined with a plethora of modesty laws that prohibit women from wearing certain color dresses, from wearing denim skirts, and from wearing any clothing deemed immodest. This is over and above the modesty called for by basic Jewish law. Until recently, enforcement of these extra modesty laws was largely left to non-violent peer pressure – today it is handled with aggression. Women have been beaten and doused with acid, paint, and bleach. Clothing stores have been torched.
The latest case of ultra-Orthodox vigilante violence was just reported by the Jerusalem Post. A group of young ultra-Orthodox men, a so-called “modesty patrol,” invaded the home of a young Jerusalem woman and, when she failed to agree to move out of the neighborhood the men sought to safeguard, beat her. One of them, a hasid, has been arrested. This “modesty patrol” suspected the woman of having contact with married men. I have heard about other home invasions, beatings and attacks – including a woman beaten with a nail-studded 2 x 4. Her crime? Nobody really knows. Ultra-Orthodox lawlessness is not new. Ultra-Orthodoxy has a clear disregard for laws it considers secular and non-Torah-based, and ultra-Orthodox Jews have long sought ways to skirt or completely evade inconvenient laws and government regulations.
Violence also has a long ultra-Orthodox pedigree, especially considering ultra-Orthodoxy itself is only about 200 years old. My favorite example is what happened after the head of the religious court in Brody – one of Eastern Europe’s most famous shtetls, now located in Ukraine – ruled leniently, allowing machine-ground wheat to be used for Passover matzos. (In the mid-19th century, this was revolutionary.) Enraged by the ruling, hasidim harassed and threatened the rabbi, trying to force him to retract. When that failed, under the cover of darkness they hurled bricks through the windows of the rabbi’s home, narrowly missing the bed of his sleeping infant son. The rabbi refused to give in to the mob, and his lenient ruling stood. But most often, violence works. Rabbis are not willing to confront it, and so they tailor their public rulings to placate thugs. They remain silent as women are beaten and harassed, sometimes condemning in private what they fear to confront publicly. When the target is homosexuals, however, ultra-Orthodox rabbis have been in the forefront of inciting violence. Israel’s chief rabbis called homosexuals “the lowest of people” during the violence-filled run-up to Jerusalem’s 2006 Gay Pride parade, and leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis signed a notice calling gays an “evil mob seeking to defile the holy city of Jerusalem.” Yeshiva heads sent their students to the streets to riot. They burned the contents of the large city-owned plastic trash dumpsters – and they burned the dumpsters themselves. The fumes and smoke sent scores of ultra-Orthodox elderly and children to hospitals with breathing and cardiac trouble. Even so, the riots and the dumpster-burning continued night after night. Weak and defenseless victims of the acrid smoke became collateral damage in a holy war fought by unruly mobs to defend the “purity” of Jerusalem. It was as if these victims were viewed by the mobs as sacrifices offered to appease the angry, vengeful, ultra-Orthodox God – the God of “modesty patrols” and segregated buses; a God of ultra-Orthodox invention, not of history. Many of us project our own religious upbringing on ultra-Orthodoxy, as if ultra-Orthodoxy was somehow American Judaism dressed up in period costume, Fiddler on the Roof with cell phones and iPods. It’s not. Ultra-Orthodoxy is a fundamentalist, rejectionist movement. It lacks transparency, democratic institutions, and checks and balances. It is closer theologically to the Taliban than is it to Reform Judaism. And one day soon, it may be riding on a bus with you.
POST A COMMENT
Wow…having just linked here through several other sites, and read the article, I’m gobsmacked. When I heard a whisper that something similar had happened in Golder’s Green/Finchley (big Jewish area in North London) where some poor girl had had rocks chucked at her for being "improperly dressed", ie, dressed no differently to the majority of young women in Britain, I was inclined to dismiss the story as exaggerated, or made up, or otherwise misinterpreted. I suppose because I thought "This is Britain, things like that don’t happen here", or "That sort of behaviour doesn’t square with the Jewish people I know". I guess I just put it down to the usual sorts of street yobbishness you get in big cities.
And now, the evidence is piling up for it being something more, something systematical, something rooted in religious ideology , and something the Jewish establishment doesn’t want to acknowledge or confront – because it would weaken the propaganda line that the only religion whose adherents are bigoted and irrational and fundamentalist and violent enough to do things like that is the Moslem one.
I wonder how the rednecks and religious extremists and neocons who post to a site like IsraelInsider would deal with this if this evidence appeared there? Would they, I wonder, dismiss it as unproven? Consider it a prime example of disguised anti-semitism? Attribute it to "self-hating Jews" and Palestinian stooges, and therefore unworthy of consideration? Become condescending and sneery and tell you the Arabs do far worse, as if that excuses their own excesses? Or lecture you as to why the Bible says it’s right and correct? (I’ve seen all these excuses advanced as reasons to deny or excuse Israeli excess and bad practice)
I live in Manchester, Britain’s second city, which has the second largest Jewish population outside London: if this sort of stuff spreads here, and if one day I’m in Prestwich and it gets turned onto me or onto anybody I know, I’m afraid I’m going to have to get selectively anti-semitic. By that I mean, if on the streets of my own city a religious maniac tries to make trouble for me, I’d be inclined to punch him first and ask his religion afterwards. Fair warning!
When people believe that they speak with the voice of the Almighty and hold the keys to salvation or perdition it always turns out this way. Everyone else is an outsider or a heretic. The codes of conduct used to differentiate between the Elect and the Infidel get more and more extreme. There's usually some sort of nonsense about a Chosen Few who Keep the Flame Alive in the face of The Corrupt and Degenerate Masses.
It doesn't matter who the Fundies are. They could be BJP ultra-nationalist "Kill the Christians and Muslims" crazy-ass Hindus. They could be Persian Mullahfuckas in black turbans who beat women because their veils aren't quite restrictive enough or Wahabite Muftis who demand that children be taught to hate all Christians and Jews. They could be Charedi thugs who beat women who won't sit at the back of the bus or whose sleeves are a little to short. Or they could be American Dominionists who demand that Noah's Ark be taught in science class and shoot women who go to health clinics.
It doesn't matter what religion they follow. It's the same brutish, murderous, barely prehensile pathology. "Mystics," so my favorite Sufi says, "recognize each other. Fundamentalists only see themselves and evil." And it's funny how moved they are to violently stamp out evil. And how much of that evil seems to be concentrated in women, especially when the women are outnumbered, elderly or unarmed. PETA demonstrates at furriers, not leather shops. It's safer to spit on little old ladies than Hell's Angels.
Self-righteous bullies who are inordinately concerned with the behavior of women. Charedi, Dominionist or Wahabite? Who knows? Who cares?
Permission to follow one's own rules become permission to enforce them on members of the Community of the Elect. Before long, the rest are forced to accomodate them as well, and if they aren't stopped the Fundies' interpretation becomes everyone's law. After all, we're standing up for G-d. And we're Right. It's not enough to let us wear our funny clothes. You have to do it to. And you have to pray when we pray and believe what we believe. If you don't, you're oppressing us.
Violence is almost always a part of this, especially against individuals who represent the Hated Other. Women and children are a favorite. Bullies don't like people who fight back.
When they're called on this the Fundies' apologists always say the same things:
1) We aren't all like that.
True, but whenit's an organized activity done by the community carried out to further the community's aims the community has a responsibility to condemn and stop it. Even if they're your own. No. ESPECIALLY IF they're your own. If you really hold yourselves to a higher standard then act like it.
2) People who aren't Fundies have done bad things.
Absolutely. But they didn't do those things to force others to be tolerant and liberal. They did it for sex, money, anger or the other mundane human reasons. The Fundie crimes are ones committed by the Fundie community to coerce or otherwise damage anyone they see as different. It is done in the name of and is a natural outgrowth of their ideology.
3) We're just defending the True Religion.
Suppose I say I'm defending the right of the innocent to be left alone. Will you object when I stick a knife into the next one of you I see beating up a woman who sat on the wrong bus seat or breaking into a house to go after one who talked to a married man?
4) How can you trust the news reports? It's all slander because they hate us.
If the story is well-sourced and cited you can't ignore it simply because you don't like the conclusions.
5) People who would do that aren't REAL (fill in the blanks).
Isn't it great? Anything good is because they're People Just Like Me. Anything they do wrong is because they aren't People Just Like Me (in fact, that means they're people Just Like You). It's classic ratchet mentality balderdash that allows the Fundies to pat themselves on the back while kicking the rest of the world in the teeth.
while incidences like this occur, they aren't the norm at all… not by a long shot. furthermore, why stigmatize all members of the ultra-orthodoxy when there's only a small percentage of them engaging in these acts? while i obviously don't agree with the radical extremism of this small percentage, it is disgusting to generalize to this degree and stir up hatred between jews.
It never ceases to amaze how for a people who are supposed to be smart, we are so incredibly DUMB and EVIL when it comes to accepting and loving our fellow Jew, especially if he is, God forbid, guilty of being just the slightest bit different from ourselves or holding an opinion different from our Rebbes'.
"Don't have a mezuza in your kids' classroom?
Well, they kinda deserved having their bus being hit by a train on their schools' field trip" – Paraphrasing "Rabbi" Peretz after the Bonim catastrophe.
"Homosexual?
Believe me, I'm stabbing you for your own good…"
"Don't go by my hechsher?
You may be Jewish but no way in hell is my son marrying your daughter"
"Not wearing long sleaves on the bus?
Our love-lynch will give you the support you need to better your ways"
I think you get my drift…
BUT…. on Tishaa Beav we fast and lament over how ???? ???? cost us our independence, our freedom and our temple. Of course the very next day we just can't wait to hating our fellow Jew ??? ????? ???? ??????.
I hold Charedi JEWS in the highest respect – JEWS who volunteer for their fellow Israeli brothers and sisters, JEWS who do chesed regardless of who is served by it, JEWS who seek out ways to improve our Jewish and Israeli society on a daily basis.
As for the rest – Here's a news flash for you sorry assed Jewish Antisemites:
Don't look to me to don my battle
fatigues again to rescue your pasty-parasitic-fat-asses when
the third kingdom comes crumbling down around your ears – you didn't want me remember? I wasn't Jewish enough for you…
Mike Darnell
PS
In the spirit of brotherly love I wish you good luck after the war explaining to your Palestinian overlords how their newly claimed state should be funding your Torah studies…
Digital Art from Jerusalem
Next time carry a nice LONG hairpin, and when one attacks you, let the air out of him!
How true! Fanatics are fanatics. How about The Talidos? Maybe the Intifrum?
Do they live in Haredistan? LOL….bus? hell!
Try 12 hrs. with them on a plane!
"AntiShmarya", "publicity whore", "liar"……wow! What is going on? You ladies are vicious! You are attacking a man for informing you of injustices and a woman for telling her story which also shows injustices….so you would further injure another Jew! But, that is what they were talking about….Jews hurting other Jews and you are proving it! You have illustrated that they are telling the truth. The only liar here are yourselves…..you lie to yourselves. All your hate, your name-calling….it tells the story they were saying all along. Get a life!
i'm not condoning what happened to you, in fact if I was around I would stick up for you, or anyone getting physically abused becuase of what they are wearing or where they are sitting on a bus, no citizen, has the right to uphold the law, which states you can sit anywhere on the bus, or where any type of clothing one desires,
and I agree with you,
you should walk in the Arab market, it's probably safer, becuase they only blow themselves up
on our buses… so go walk with them, you can even marry an Arab, where in Eygpt upuntill the last 20 years, 30% of their women after marraige had certain "female genitals" removed, to reduce pleasure. And in other arab cultures, the women is NOT allowed to leave the house unsupervised,
anyhow, watch what you ask for, you just might get it.
FACT, they are the most loving, giving, helping, charitable people the
world has ever known
Okay, well, for what it's worth, I doubt very much that almost any non-Charedim would agree with this statement. So, you know, maybe you're right — but that fact seems to have escaped nearly everyone.
FACT, they are the most loving, giving, helping, charitable people the
world has ever known, & that's what irks so many of you.
Right. That's what irks us.
Well, it's a good thing Mother Theresa isn't alive to hear that she's been outclassed by a group of Yidden in Boro Park and B'nei Brak.
Nancy – I'm so sorry you've gone through everything you have, then to be subjected to all of this.
to nancy- 10 times huh? nice even number i dont believe it for shit though ur such a liar and publicity whore (im not a fan of chassidim at all but ur obviously full of shit) why do u feel the need to accuse everyone u come into contact with? u know what im talking about
"Would you rather pass by a Chareidi when you are alone on a dark street somewhere, or anyone else?"
Are you kidding? I have been attacked in the street and in my own home in Jerusalem by none other than the Charaedim 10 times! I would rather walk in a Muslim neighborhood!
YD. If their attitude causes so more violence, how come their neighborhoods are the safest around. Would you rather pass by a Chareidi when you are alone on a dark street somewhere, or anyone else? FACT, they are the most loving, giving, helping, charitable people the world has ever known, & that's what irks so many of you. Chazak Yiden
For all those crying racism becasue of this article –
Although to paint all Charieidim as being violent law-ignoring criminals is obviously wrong, I beleive the point here is their exclusionary attitude, which is germane to most Chareidim. This attitude is much more prone to causing violence and having other negative effects (social outcasitng, hatred of fellow Jews etc..) when confroning those with different outlooks. These idiots are just the result of an "talibanesque" ideology that is generally left unrestrained. Their actions may be the exception, but their ideology is the norm.
Rebecca – I can also believe I'm the King of France. It does not mean I am. There's nothing in Judaism that allows men to beat up women who don't move to the back of the bus. Similarly, there's nothing in Judaism that encourages fraud or crime.I mean, maybe you think there is, but there isn't. Anyone who uses Judaism to justify assault or fraud is simply mistaken or lying. Given that these guys are criminals and thieves, the notion of them also being liars is not such a stretch.But now it's just semantics – I don't think we disagree with each other. The individuals in question tried to justify their crimes via religion – I think we both agree that our religion does not in fact encourage this.
———————————
I blog at Jewlicious.com
Can someone please explain to me, why they think that these idiots, who can call themselves whatever they want, represent the Charedi Jews?
It's clear to anyone who can see the sun during the day, that what these iditos did is wrong. It's not even a question. These people don't listen to authroity, they don't follow any rules except their own. They are not torah observant Jews, and if they are, they are extremly mis-guided and off the derech. The rabbis have no need to speak out against these fools, because it's clear that what they are doing is wrong. and for the Rabbi's to come out against this foolishness is a waste of time, because these clowns are going to continue to do it. They have been doing this junk for 40-50 years it's not new, but it should be known clearly that the ones at fault are the secular police. why don't they come and arest them? Who's job is it to enforce the "law of the land" it's the police officers, and don't try to pull the "relgious have the secular police in their back pocket" cause that just aint true, stright up.
SO the point being, why don't we focus more on the fact that these iditots exist, and that they in NO WAY represent charedi, and us, the secular population, not wnating to be judged for immorality every night, or stealing and cheating, we shouldn't judge a small minority off-shoot of "look a likes" as the opinion and agreement of an entire nation……
Jewlicious, actually, I do believe that the men who beat up Miriam Shear and the women in the JPost article were religiously motivated. I don't think they were right, but I do think they committed their crimes in the name of (ultra-Orthodox) Judaism.
I approve of Shmarya Rosenberg's besmirching of Judaism, but I wish he had given me some credit for his ideas. I wish I could declare him an honorary Aryan, but his stereotypically jewish appearance would feature well in our textbooks of racial hygeine. I would never have dreamt that two generations after we tried to finish off the Jews, the Jews are doing a pretty good job of it themselves. No need for Iran to do it and causse a massive carbon footprint
The notorious Godless Heathen David Kelsey wrote:
"As Rebecca correctly noted, "the secular criminals you name did not commit crimes in the name of secularism."
More importantly, the Jewish community did not lionize protect them and insist they were being picked on because they were secular."
I don't think Rebecca actually believes that the "religious" criminals committed their crimes in the name of Judaism. Judaism does not encourage criminal behavior in the ordinary course of things.These thugs can claim they were raising money for poor Yeshivah boys, but we all know that's a load of bullocks – and even if they were acting like modern day Robin Hoodsteins, it still wouldn't be justified.
The religious criminals, like their secular colleagues, were motivated by greed and an arrogant disrespect for the law. Dinah Deh Malchutei Dinah is the law and in violating secular law, they violated Jewish law as well. Anyone that says differently is full of crap, plain and simple. Furthermore, these religious criminals were not exactly lionized. Read the articles Shmarya linked to.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Orthodox Judaism and its Rabbis but any Rabbi that justifies criminal behavior against a just and Democratic state, any Rabbi that says that it is a sin to act as an informant against any criminals, "frum" or otherwise, well, that Rabbi's advice is about as valid as a Rabbi telling you it's ok to drive to shul on Shabbat or to eat pork.
———————————
I blog at Jewlicious.com
The Zionist David Abitbol wrote,
Lansky. Boesky. Milken. Gaydamak. Spitzer. The list of secular Jewish criminals is long indeed.
As Rebecca correctly noted, "the secular criminals you name did not commit crimes in the name of secularism."
More importantly, the Jewish community did not lionize protect them and insist they were being picked on because they were secular.
Or let me try an inverted version of the typical haredi response:
If they committed these crimes, then clearly, they weren't really secular.
Despite being secular I respect Charedi Jews – they make huge sacrifices to live as they do and as a whole they are like every other society – some better some worse.
My only regret is that the Charedi society for some reason refuses to rally and condemn perverted acts committed by its trouble makers and losers. It is to the detriment of their camp as a whole, and it certainly weakens the argument made by the community leaders that theirs is a society that is morally superior to others.
Their is no honor, chesed, or shmirat mitzvot in harboring miscreants – the opposite is true – the Torah speaks of a Jewish community's responsibilty to be a "Camp of Justice".
Mike Darnell
Digital Art from Jerusalem
I was disappointed that you took down the long posts from "Seyss-Inquart" and "Greenglass" because they were the most eductional part of this thread. Now we know about other Rosenbergs. Several people took offence to the comparison between Alfred and Shmarya. I would like a point by point comparison between Alfred and Shmarya on the fundamentals of Judaism, ie Shabbat, Kashrut, etc. Alfred's statements are a matter of public record. I cannot speak for Shmarya-but the Rosenberg Family Feud would be fun to watch.
Tarfon claims to be offended by "Seyss-Inquart". Jewcy has run overtly anti-Semitic threads in the past, ie Thors, etc. Why is Seyss-Inquart give so much offence? Finally, crimes have been committed by secular Jews in the name of secularism. As part of the Oslo "peace" accords, arms were given to the PA. Those giving the arms knew they would eventually be used to kill Israelis. Dont they bear some responsibility for the Jews that were killed in the second Intifada?
Jewlicious, you make a good point about condemning the entire group for the sins of a few. I feel bad that I didn't call that out in my first comment. You're right, most Orthodox don't do this and it's bigoted to say that they do.
On the other hand, the secular criminals you name did not commit crimes in the name of secularism.
The problem with the comments of "Arthur Seyss-Inquart" and "David Greenglass" wasn't that they were overlong and failed to simply link — the problem was that they were abusive beyond the point of social acceptability in linking the author to a Nazi war criminal and to a convicted spy. (BTW, do the editors not know who Arthur Seyss-Inquart and David Greenglass were?) If there are any civility limits to posting here, those comments should be taken down entirely, not left up with suggestions to link.
Egged opens another sex-segregated bus line in J'lem
"Petitions filed with the Transportation Ministry against the Egged and Dan mehadrin sex-segregated bus lines in 2007 seem to have fallen on deaf ears as Egged opens another bus route for the ultra-Orthodox in Jerusalem.
The new Egged-chartered, separate-seating bus route, 15A, operates in the capital's Har Nof neighborhood."
Joel Katz
Religion and State in Israel
While no one of the readership excuses the abuse that anonymous underwent at the hands of the Haredim, Rosenberg would have an equally hard time with the Orthodox man carrying the Israeli flag, or with the fact that you visited Rachel's Tomb. In this way he is more similar to Alfred Rosenberg, or Julius Rosenberg, who uses personal ideology to hurt as many Jews as possible
"Are these diversion tactics?"
Yes. Some frummie is upset that Shmarya exposing haredi antics and strategies.
This is par for the course.
It's amazing you guys can't focus on the issues! One is talking about
drugs and another other is giving a history lesson about Nazis and taking
up a bunch of space. Are these diversion tactics?
I was a tourist in Israel and somehow ended up on one of those weird
buses. I am a petite blond woman, non-Hebrew speaking and alone,
(visiting Rachael's Tomb). I had no clue what was going on and I sat in
the very front seat. I am lucky to be in one piece right now. I began
getting wide-eyed looks and there was a little dispersing action at the
front of the bus and I started feeling intimidated. I began to realize
trouble was brewing, so I jumped up and ran to the back of the bus. It scared me to death. What you describe above, could have been me.
A non-Hebrew speaker, a female tourist, I often wandered into the "wrong neighborhood"…..the religious neighborhood. See, I thought they were the good guys. I didn't know what the signs said which prohibited me from walking by! I thought I would be safe with the religious and that they would protect me!
What a horrible feeling to be attacked by the Haraedi maniacs of
Jerusalem. Once in the very riots described above back in 2006 I
arrived on the scene with a rabbi and another student. I was modestly
covered from head to toe, even wearing a knit cap. Apparently, I still
looked "cute" or something so I was attacked by a screaming Haraedi
with a rock. My crime was….."standing there?"…..I
guess. He came at me like a bull in a bull fight, charging while
screaming. I was shocked that Jewish men beat up girls.
Truth is…..you need a baseball bat to walk in Jerusalem if you are a female alone and attractive.
Anyone who can deny the State of Israel can deny the whole world….and
that's why you readers who write these menacing comments to Shamrya
Rosenberg can deny the truth…..because you deny the world. It takes
courage to tell the truth and even to look at truth objectively.
Gee….We want our pseudo innocence. I saw with my own eyes that these
men are cowards, mere sissy boys who hit at girls and everyone is
afraid of speaking up because they are blind cowards.
It takes 7 Charaedi guys in Maalot Dafna to beat up one regular
Orthodox guy who happens to be walking down the street with an Israeli
flag draped around his shoulder on Israel's Independence Day, because
sissy boys don't fight fair. And you know how twisted these icky little
minds are? They say he deserved it for walking in their neighborhood
with an Israeli flag!……(wow, as if he had committed a crime!)
The whole bunch of them are criminals and bullies that need to get
busted and do time like others who do similar crimes. I lost respect
for them!
I want to know why do people support a sect like that who only
divide us! Like parasites, they don't work or serve their country. In fact, they hate their own country!
They huddle in their ugly ghettos and they have turned our Jerusalem
into an ugly ghetto. They separate themselves from the rest of the Jews
and they divide all Jews against each other. They attack their fellow
Jew and embarrass their fellow Jew, for instance, by screaming at women
publicly. They should just tear their eyes out if they don't want to
see! I dress modestly yet they screamed at me when I entered the
women's section of a Chabad synagogue to daven. They are no longer Jews to me. They are simply murderers. What a waste of a Torah education! They never learned how to be kind. How can they call themselves children of Abraham?
Bravo, Shamrya. You have to kick hard to wake these collaborators up.
Oops! You seem to have missed our comments policy! Long article? Link to it!
Is Shamrya Rosenberg more similar to Alfred Rosenberg than he is to the Chofetz Chaim?
Oops! You seem to have missed our comments policy! Long article? Link to it!
John, yes, actually, people do complain about that. On the other hand, no one argues that the way to stop them is to throw acid on them and beat them.
It's not "about them and their way of life," it's about them trying to force their way of life onto others.
Anonymous #2, if you'll look at the first link, you'll see that the bus was not a Mehadrin bus. It was a public, unsegregated bus, and a woman was beaten for not sitting at the back.
Nor do UO have the right to attack people who live in their neighborhoods for not following haredi law. A woman was attacked because there were rumors that she slept with married men. This is not OK in any neighborhood, UO or secular.
What the heck are you idiots talking about?
Firrst off, if a secular state, grants the UO a seperate seating bus line,
which travels in area's populated generally by UO then everyone should respect that.
Just like everyone here wants the UO to respect them, and their space, you too should respect their space. Meaning, if I get on a bus, with seperate seating, who am I to not follow the rules? It's stright out arrogance, and foolishness. I live in CAnada, and I travel to Britian, screw the british rules, I want to drive on the right side of the road, well, you know what, you want to be arrogant, and stubborn, and can't follow simple society rules, you deserved to be punished…no? is that not logical? It makes sence to me…
we aren't talking about UO who go into a secular neibourhood and start pounding on people with bats, we are talking about in their own backyards…
the truth is, I just wouldn't go near them, let them live in their poverty…leave them alone and they'll leave you alone, the second you enter their world, and can't follow the rules, you get punished….makes sence….
Not to mention, what's so bad about segregattion, I know it's hard to understand,
but it seems good on the surface….especially for someone who realizes there is more to the world then just my small, i mean big pennis, I mean ,physical bodies…
This is the ugly truth of the Jewish Civil War that everybody sees and
nobody acknowledges. The Chereidi have gone on a Imperialistic war of
conquest to eliminate all other sects of Judaism. It's only a matter
of time until guns and bombs are used, since normal people seem
incredibly slow in waking up to the danger. They have rationalized the
maiming of their brethren of other sects, rationalizing their death is
not far behind.
I have taken to calling this segment of the right-wing ultra-Orthodox the "harediban."
What do you think?
Thumbs up. Way up.
I think it is important to note that the organizations that report to the leaders who demand things like separate bus seating operate here in the U.S. in a deceptive and predatory fashion. For instance, Ohr Somayach "dean" and Neve Yerushalayim founder Rabbi Weinbach conveniently condemned "unrestrained interaction of the sexes" right after the announcement that haredi women were to force the issue by insisting on sitting on the back of the buses:
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1130
People need to know who there local "outreach" organization ultimately reports to.
No these jews will not be wiped out in the next few years, because although they are a small group they wield a lot of influence over other jews using various tactics such as instilling fear and guilt. Great article Shmarya. Keep going!
Why is what they did so bad?
Does anyone complain about the young black kids who grow up in poverty, and start doing drugs at a very, very young age, and have relations with girls at a very, very young age…or the prostetutes who are very young and sell themselves to make a couple bucks…and by the way, who are they selling to? A society that desires it. Does the police stop it? What about the mob? The underground world of murders theives and drug dealers, does anyone complain?
So why are you so passionate about one small groupo of people? Who cares about them and their way of life. You've turned your whole life into an anti Ultra Orthodox gotta bring them down and expose them life…what the heck is that really? who cares, the truth is, it will die out no? They won't be around in a hundred years, but prostetition will be, drug dealing will be, which usually leads to other types of illigeal activity, so why not protest that? These Jews will be wiped out in the next few eyars anyways no??
I have taken to calling this segment of the right-wing ultra-Orthodox the "harediban."
What do you think?
Wanna post your own comments? Gotta log in first!