Religion & Beliefs

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• 
  By Reginald 5/1/08 at 5:53 p.m. UTC

  You're not trying to convert me! You must not care, and be an anti-semite!

  You're trying to convert me! You must denigrate my beliefs, and hence be an anti-semite!

  Christians want to convert everyone, and think that none can be saved except through Christ. If this makes them anti-semitic, then it makes them anti-everyone-who-is-not-Christian. But, the fact that they love others and want to converts makes the latter false, then it makes the former false as well. Unless, if by 'anti-semitic' you mean something very very weak indeed.
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  By Jon 4/10/08 at 1:17 p.m. UTC

  Speaking of Christians and Jews, is the Pope still planning to visit a shul erev Pesach? The news media says yes, but the Pope's schedule says no. http://www.uspapalvisit.org/itinerary_en.htm
• 
  By Yaakov 4/9/08 at 9:00 a.m. UTC

  "Now, you make this is all poppycock"

  Ok, now you've accurately stated the traditional Jewish position. Given that, as an observant Jew, I don't question your right to your beliefs. The way I look at it, at least you're (more or less) a monotheist and probably follow the Noahide laws.

  When the Moshiach arrives, we can ask if this is his first or second visit. Until then, we'd all be fine if we agreed to disagree peacefully.
• 
  By Mark H. 4/8/08 at 10:57 a.m. UTC

  Peter, you wrote:

  My point is that there is a disconnect between saying that you respect and love and the Jewish people, but you don't believe in they can be redeemed through their own unique relationship with God.

  But there is only a disconnect if one accepts that Jewish people and non-Jewish people are somehow ontologically different and distinct from one another.  I don't, and neither do most orthodox Christians whether we are evangelical or Catholic or (like me) Anglican.  We believe that we are all created in the image of God, that we have all fallen, and that we are all in need of redemption (broadly understood as reconciliation with God and with one another). 

  It is true that evangelicals (and most orthodox Christians) believe that, in the centuries-long process of reconciliation which the Lord in his wisdom set into motion and continues to bring about, the people of Israel have played and continue to play a central role.  But this role reached its end, its telos, in the person of Jesus Christ:

  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….In him was life, and the life was the light of men… The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth… And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1). 

  This is the central belief of all Christians.  And because we believe that Jesus is Lord — because we believe that in him comes our redemption with God and with one another – we also believe that now "[t]here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

  Thus, for evangelicals and other Christians to say that salvation for the Jews depends upon the same thing — or rather the same person Person, i.e., God – as it does for the rest of humanity is not to be anti-semitic, but rather to be egalitarian and equalitarian.  It is to proclaim that in Jesus the hope of the people of Israel has been fulfilled: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession" (Ps. 2:8).  And it simply would not make sense for us to envision any sort of redemption worthy of the name in which Jews, Gentiles, males, females, slaves, freemen, and everyone else were not all brought together and made into the one people of God — for just as God is one, so are his people.

  Now, you make this is all poppycock.  But to many of us this Gospel is life itself and therefore not something we would dream of giving up so as not to give offence.
• 
  By Harold Finnis 4/6/08 at 1:50 p.m. UTC

  There is another good article on the antisemitic statement here: http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/bible-scholars-join-wea-call-conversion-jews

  The article's author, Charles Gadda, has been critical of recent Dead Sea Scrolls exhibits (apparently organized in large part by evangelical "bible scholars") on similar grounds.  See http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/korean-public-gets-learn-all-about-dead-sea-scrolls and http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/did-christian-agenda-lead-biased-dead-sea-scrolls-exhibit-san-diego . 
• 
  By naftali 4/4/08 at 1:47 p.m. UTC

  For Ismail, what's wrong with my post is that I wrote it.  Heh. 
• 
  By Yaakov 4/4/08 at 12:13 p.m. UTC

  Naftali,

  I did not see the post misusing the Talmud here, but I've seen plenty of of that on the net. There seems to be a view that we should read the Bible and Talmud literally and out of context, even though we don't read anything else that way.

  Ismail, what's wrong with Naftali's post? If you examine the Talmud, you'll see that it's written in a form different from western writing and thinking.

   
• 
  By Ismail 4/4/08 at 8:33 a.m. UTC

  "…how to get the western mind to wrap around the Talmud instead of folks of a western mind forcing the Talmud to wrap around their own sense of logic and cause and effect."

  Huh? Wait a minute, this is a prank, right? That's you, Kohanzad, posting under naftali's name, right? How else to account for this endorsement of the irrational, Bong-hit Max's favorite epistemic ploy? 
• 
  By naftali 4/4/08 at 2:55 a.m. UTC

  Have you seen that screed about the Talmud?  Someone posted it, in seriousness, as a comment on something else at this site.  It's like the Protocols, just misinterprets every single sentence to make the Talmud sound like the most evil book written.  I mean that's the trouble right there, how to get the western mind to wrap around the Talmud instead of folks of a western mind forcing the Talmud to wrap around their own sense of logic and cause and effect.

  We solve that and the messiah comes.  :-) 
• 
  By Yaakov 4/3/08 at 2:57 p.m. UTC

  Thanks Naftali. When I said the Talmud's accessable, I was thinking of Steinsaltz and other guidebooks. You're certainly right that you can't just pick up the raw text and read it like any other book.

  Good question about knowledgeable Jews discussing Talmud with Christians. My impression is that the Talmud itself does not encorage that. On the other had, I have some recollection that Rashi discussed Talmudic concepts with his local Priest.   
• 
  By naftali 4/3/08 at 1:26 p.m. UTC

  Yaakov,

  I agree that it is accessible, and there is a great deal of learning going on, but who's going to teach you to think counterintuitively, which is one of the key skills in learning? Who can teach someone the various ways to 'fill in the shorthand' style of writing? There is that horrible anti-semitic screed about the evils of the Talmud–but they get there by applying linear logic, by removing quotes from the enormous context within each and every word sits. In other words, they treat the text just like they would treat any other text. And this is no ordinary text, the Talmud.

  So many of the lessons even taught by rabbis, Let's Make This Easy, just focus on the facts on the page. What did Reish Lakish say to Abaye, as if that's the main thrust.

  I'm pretty sure YaladNeo was referring to Gentiles. In every conversation I've had with Christians, the Talmud and Mishnah are complete mysteries. I'm curious what would happen if they began inviting knowledgeable Jews to their study sessions to discuss the Talmud. And I'm also wondering if qualified teachers would consent to go. Who knows?
• 
  By Yaakov 4/3/08 at 11:57 a.m. UTC

  "No one teaches us the Oral Torah, therefore how can we accept or deny it? "

  Are you refering to Jews or Gentiles? There are more Jews learning Talmud now than ever before in the history of the world (except for Sinai itself). The Talmud is accessable on books, tapes, CDs, online, etc. I agree with Naftali thatit is best to learn with a teacher or study partner. But, there are even free telephone programs where a Jew can learn with a partner.

  "Can G_d be working thru Yeshua? Well, he worked thru Balaam." Absolutely right. I've learned more about Judaism that I ever expected while trying to explain to others why Jews don't accept Jesus. (Btw, the analogy to Balaam is great–the Talmud makes a similar analogy using Balaam's name while possibly discussing Jesus).
• 
  By Yaakov 4/3/08 at 11:57 a.m. UTC

  "No one teaches us the Oral Torah, therefore how can we accept or deny it? "

  Are you refering to Jews or Gentiles? There are more Jews learning Talmud now than ever before in the history of the world (except for Sinai itself). The Talmud is accessable on books, tapes, CDs, online, etc. I agree with Naftali thatit is best to learn with a teacher or study partner. But, there are even free telephone programs where a Jew can learn with a partner.

  "Can G_d be working thru Yeshua? Well, he worked thru Balaam." Absolutely right. I've learned more about Judaism that I ever expected while trying to explain to others why Jews don't accept Jesus. (Btw, the analogy to Balaam is great–the Talmud makes a similar analogy using Balaam's name while possibly discussing Jesus).
• 
  By naftali 4/2/08 at 11:58 p.m. UTC

  expect the Christians to respect the internal spiritual truth of Judaism when most Jews don't even have a clear idea that there is an internal spiritual truth in Judaism? One day walking around your average synagogue religious school is all the proof of that you need. I think we've been trying to figure out this internal truth since Mt. Sinai.

  I'd be disappointed if Jews decide to take the "I'm offended" route at past conversion attempts, and taking offense at pogroms and genocides is a bit pathetic whereas a good healthy dose of savvy might be a better response.

  Yalad/Neo:

  I wish the Talmud could be learned online. But it can't. You really need a seasoned teacher and a bit of luck in finding the right teacher. If you see my above question for Peter, this is not an easy task. I consider myself fortunate to have had a very fine teacher.
• 
  By Peter Bebergal 4/2/08 at 10:34 p.m. UTC

  I never meant to imply that Evangelical belief in the good news of Jesus is ant-semitic. My point is that there is a disconnect between saying that you respect and love and the Jewish people, but you don't believe in they can be redeemed through their own unique relationship with God. It is disingenuous for Evangelicals to say that they have no other motive than the well being of Israel and Jews, when many, maybe not all, but many, do not respect the internal spiritual truth of Judaism.

  But more importantly, historically the Christian desire to convert the Jews has often been built around and fomented antisemitic attitudes and actions. The ad from the World Evangelical Alliance even apologizes if the ad offends, a recognition that these kinds of sentiments can and have offended.
• 
  By YaladNeo 4/2/08 at 7:37 p.m. UTC

  No one teaches us the Oral Torah, therefore how can we accept or deny it? Is the Talmud online anywhere for free, for all to see in English?  There are free Bibles online everywhere in all languages, including original Hebrew, Greek.   

  This goes back to my original questions.  If not for Yeshua, then who?  Would Israel exist today if not for the movement originally started by Yeshua and his twelve disciples? And if so, how?  Would the Balfour treaty every had been put in place? I tend to think, the gentile movement started orginally by Jews is a move of G_d to bring about his desires.  How else do we interpret the scriptures coming true so far?
• 
  By YaladNeo 4/2/08 at 7:30 p.m. UTC

  John Hagee preaches Yeshua as Messiah at least to the gentiles.  Not sure of his complex beliefs in end times scenario.  But he certainly is not an anti-semite, not mattre how confused some of his views may be.  He is in favor of Israel for the blessing and in obedience to the word of both Old and New Testaments.  But he does not try to invoke conversions to Yeshua among Jewish believers that he supports. Least, not that I am aware of.  Instead, he gleefully soldiers on and supports Israel at all cost and in grand flamboyant ways.  I tend to think it quite entertaining at time to hear him speak at the Conferences for Israel.  He can bellow and bluster. No surprise Israel, especially on the right loves his message.  He's one of the strong voices against terrorism. 

  He believes Israel will see Messiah at their appointed time, *I think.*  When they will see "Him who comes in Hashem the Lord" or, "They will see Him who they've pierced."  Not sure how this all plays out in his views.
• 
  By YaladNeo 4/2/08 at 7:12 p.m. UTC

  Hello,

  This is great opportunity for open conversation. Instead of picking well known faces, considered extreme to evoke a reaction and to represent all evangelicals or Christians as anti-semites, I was hoping to get past outward appearances and ask deeper, significant questions.

  1) Why did/are millions turning to a Judeo-Christian G_d and/or a Jewish Messiah out of choice? When gentiles turned to Yeshua ben Yoseph, son of Miriam, of the tribe of Judah, why do they transform to love Israel and Jews?  Why are believers sending billions in medicine, food, clothes, hospital construction, and aliyah payments so Jews may return to Israel? American Christians alone are responsible for hundreds of thousands of Jewish people returning to Israel. What happened in our country?

  2) If we remove concerns of well-known issues. Can we ask some questions? Can G_d be working thru Yeshua? Well, he worked thru Balaam. Yeshua taught, "To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles."  No surprise, He was born a Jew, cried for Israels eventual destruction at the hands of Romans. He taught his Jewish disciples to speak in the Synagogues first. Whereupon many did freely believe, thousands in fact. Amazingly, they were more open then to hearing opposing views than today during supposedly liberal times. Think about that for a minute. 

  This changed after Constantine's rule. He turned a small Jewish-Gentile sect into a government religion. And therein begins the road to ruin. Corrupt govt. officials  punished and discarded Jews based upon false premises. Following the Roman institution of govt. run religion, begins a terrible history of a wondering Jewish nation in travails under constant fear. They were attacked by Romans, by Islam later. By atheist in Russia, by maniacs like Hitler. This is the weirdest fact of history unknown to any other people in the world. Why? What purpose?  Yeshua or his disciples did not teach such hatred, only love. There is not one single verse in the New Testament that directs believing Jew or Gentile to hatred of others in the name of Yeshua. Plus we find that oppression and terror are not limited to Jews, but Christians too. Millions of Christians have died, more so than the Holocaust. Corrupt government leaders have done this. Atheism still today in China, Cuba, even in Russia there are problems. 

  What is significant is how the Old Testament states Jews would be spread to the four corners of the earth and experience great misery as being sifted and winnowed.  Yeshua too states this would happen to both Jew and Gentile believers. So, if we're blaming someone for anti-semitism. Should we blame the prophets of old? Or G_d himself?  I say this respectfully and humbly, not flippantly. These are serious questions to discuss, yes?  Why is this pattern established again and again?  And why now, at this time is Israel once again being gathered back from the four corners? And why are gentiles, who are largely clueless to history and certainly not anti-semite helping so many return?

  I have more thoughts, but this is long already. I'm curious what others think.   
• 
  By Anonymous 4/2/08 at 5:19 p.m. UTC

  Whoever the folks who took the ad out are, they do not agree with John Hagee. He himself has explicitly stated that Jews do need Jesus to be redeemed. He has even stated that Jesus is not the Messiah. Check your facts.

    Christians believe that redemption requires acceptance of Jesus as Savior. You seem to think that this is bigoted. It’s theology. Bigoted is when you ascribe beliefs to groups of people without a knowledge of what those beliefs are, as you have done.

    Since you have decided to jump on the “irrational fear of evangelicals” bandwagon and can only assume an ulterior motive to their actions, such as sharing their beliefs with others, I will explain this to you in simple terms in the hope that your evangelica-phobia doesn’t beguile you. Israel has no better friends than the American evangelicals. Even American Jews have not been as supportive. While the rest of the world either denies or applauds the Holocaust (and countries like Iran plan another), you’ve decided to blow the cover off of a major conspiracy, that being that Christians believe in Jesus Christ. Well done.      

   
• 
  By Peter Bebergal 4/1/08 at 12:21 p.m. UTC

  Hi Yaakov,

  What I meant is that while Christians don't accept the oral Torah,
  their fundamental theology still has to rest on the Hebrew scriptures.
  Christian redemption rests on the history of the Jewish people, and on
  the promise made to the Israelites by God. Jewish redemption shouldn't
  be the same as Christian since Jews have a special role to play, even
  in Christian theology. In Corinthians, Paul says a few interesting
  things: "For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our
  fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and
  all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate
  the same spiritual food…" and "Since there is one bread, we who are
  many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the
  nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?"

  I might be naive regarding Christian theology, but it would seem
  that Christian redemption is only possible because of the Jewish
  history. The Law of Moses, Christians would say, is fulfilled by Jesus,
  but this for the gentile–Jews are still bound by the law. 
• 
  By Yaakov 4/1/08 at 10:33 a.m. UTC

  Peter, 

   I don't follow this paragraph:

  "Every year on Yom Kippur Jews all over the world gather in synagogues and shuls to pray fervently for redemption—redemption promised by God in the very same scriptures that Christians use to support their own history and their own promised redemption.To suggest that Jews cannot be redeemed without Jesus is not only theologically unsound; it removes the very bedrock of the Christian religion."

        Can you explain what you meant? Jews and Christians have different views of redemption, Jews based on the Torah (written and oral) and Christians based on the Bible ("old" and "new"). Since Jews don't accept the "new" and Christians don't accept the oral Torah, there is a chasm in belief.

         
• 
  By Megan 3/31/08 at 10:23 p.m. UTC

  Why is it so frightening that some (not all!) Evangelical Christians wish we would join their ranks? Why does it have to smack of anti-semitism? Are we always so much better?  Granted, we aren't trying to convert the gentiles, but it's no secret that many Jews thinks themselves superior to the average goy.  In todays world, a Christian's attempt to convert a Jew poses no real threat.  So why must it always smack of bigotry and never altruism?  At least they sincerely believe in their attempts to help us, which some might view as better than snickering on the sidelines at goyish mothers and their sons with blue-collar jobs . . .
• 
  By Phantom 3/31/08 at 6:32 p.m. UTC

  Who cares?  As long as they enthusiastically support whatever Likud wants to do, right?  What difference does it make what their religious beliefs are so long as they don't encroach on the beliefs of Jewish people or have a negative affect on their lives somehow.

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