When Rockets Hit Your Home

Reminds me of the brief time I spent on a kibbutz near your neigborhood.  When the festivities in nearby Gaza (back then, we didn't have rocket attacks, just rifle fire) got on our nerves, some of us would take the bus into Tel Aviv, to the Yemini quarter -- Neve Tsedek NOT -- where we'd chill on the primo ganja to be had cheaply in those precincts.  Gosh, was it that long ago?

כהנא צדק

Neal, you seem like a decent fellow, and I respect the emotions that a near-miss rocket landing must have evoked.

 Still, I'm puzzled that you can refer to what's happening in Gaza as a "war", in light of the ratio of casualties, Palestinian:Israeli, approaching 75:1. To me this sounds more like a  massacre than a war. The Israelis killed by Hamas activity since the end of the truce - 11 was the last count I saw - wouldn't amount to the number of traffic accident casualties in New York in a single day.

I don't mean to belittle the suffering of those 11 Israelis or their families but I wish Israelis and Jewish sympathizers with Israel would stop  trying to create a false equivalency of their suffering with those of Palestinians under Israel's 40-year occupation.

 Thanks for listening. I hope you have a safe return home.

From a humanitarian standpoint I understand you Aherodias. It is a disgrace that Hamas didn't built shelters for their civilians before starting this war. Every home in Israel has some form of shelter, as does every bus stop and as for schools........ schools have a shelter large enough for all the students,  the teachers and a number of parents should they be in the neighbourhood.

Oh and also, the army doesn't hunker down in private apartment blocks - could be another reason - and of course there are no huge arsenals inside those apartment blocks either.... the IDF decided both actions would be irresponsible. Finally of course there are those tunnels which have a tendency to collapse when the building is hit..... you know "tunnels big enough for a camel to walk through" of which there can be four or five under even a private house - I don't think Israeli civil engineers would give those a civic building licence!!!!

You would be hard-pressed to find an Israeli who does not wish teh ordinary Palestinian a peaceful and productive life with happy children...... I jsut wish it was returned.

With love from Jerusalem

Sheila

the sound of the rocket launching from the site where the video is being taped....

those nutty students....

Aherodias

Numbers do not shed light on the situation in the Israel/Palestine conflict; intent does. 

*Hamas' intent is to ensure that Israel no longer exists and strengthen its grip on the moderate Arab people. 

*Israel's intent is to ensure peace not only within its borders but in the region. 

Let's use words not numbers for clarification.

Sheila:

I have no desire to debate with you, but I feel a responsibility to help well-meaning people like yourself broaden their perspective.

I don ‘t believe that you do understand me, Sheila. I am working as hard as a mere civilian in the United States can to help achieve peace and safety for both Israelis and Palestinians. If you want to know my position from a humanitarian standpoint I will offer a number of cold, hard facts.

To begin with, I reiterate that there is no “war” in Gaza. In a real war you would expect to see some balance of casualties on both sides, not 800 to 13. But if you insist on calling it a war, let me remind you (or inform you if necessary) that part of the truce agreement between Israel and Hamas obligated Israel to end its blockade of the Gazan economy and infrastructure. Israel violated this agreement from the start, so I think Hamas showed remarkable restraint in limiting the number of rockets they fired over the six-month period. I personally wish they had fired no rockets at all, but I don’t believe it would have made any difference to the Israeli government and IDF.

Secondly, on November 4 (suspiciously coincidental with the US elections), an IDF infantry unit moved almost 400 meters into Wadi al-Salqa village, east of Deir al-Balah in the central Gaza Strip. They raided one house, holding the family hostage in one room, and used the house as a military base. Other IDF troops surrounded a second Palestinian house. This naturally provoked a response from Hamas armed forces, but I assert that Israel’s actions unconditionally constituted a clear truce violation.

Examining the question about shelters that you so cleverly raised: The Israeli siege of Gaza has reduced the economy to a shambles, with unemployment over 50 percent and opportunities for trade nearly zero due to the use of “checkpoints.” It is hard to believe that the Gazans have the resources to rebuild the hospitals and mosques that Israel destroyed, let alone bomb shelters for the inhabitants. In any case, the population density in Gaza is an average of nearly 11,000 people per square mile, making it a densely populated urban area almost throughout. Israel has already demonstrated their ability to destroy even fortified buildings with ease… but this is a tiresome line of argument. The fact is they didn‘t have shelters, so the use ofmissiles and artillery inevitably would cause great damage to civilians.

When Gazans attempted to take shelter in UN schools and residences, the IDF showed no hesitation in shelling these places, killing dozens at a time, mainly women and children. Of what use are shelters against such a force so inhumanly deployed?

Given a) the density of people noted earlier and b) the impossibility of any Gazan resident to leave the completely enclosed and guarded area, where do you think Hamas fighters should go when they are attacked by airplanes, helicopters, and artillery? Do you think this is using people as “human shields?” This line of crap was used during the Lebanon invasion. All human rights groups including B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, denied there was any evidence for this kind of behavior. On the other hand (as you can find out by going to the B’Tselem web site), there were several documented cases of Israel troops literally using Palestinians as shields.

So the Israeli army doesn’t “hunker down” in apartment blocks. Do you understand where the Israeli Central Command is located? Look it up, for god’s sake, and try to see if there is any similarity there.

Can you not see any political or historical context for the current ethnic cleansing, for that is surely what Israel has been doing for a decade? The fact that during a year and a half of siege, Israeli checkpoints allowed less than one-sixth of the aid rations through to Gaza that the UN calculated would be required to sustain the population. Did you not hear of the starvation, the lack of clean water, the lack of electrical power, all engineered by Israel? Do you really think you understand me from a “Humanitarian standpoint”? Where is YOUR standpoint?

Hannahre:

So numbers don’t shed any light? Well, if Israeli casualties were 800 and the other side only 13 you damn well would insist that numbers count.

Here’s what I think about Israel’s “intent.” They intend to grab as much Palestinian territory as they can, regardless of international law. That theory explains why there are nearly half a million Israeli “settlers”, or more accurately invaders, now living in the West Bank.

They also intend to kill as many people who resist this takeover as they can, to make it easier to implement the land grab. How else to explain the use of cluster bombs in the millions, weapons whose sole purpose is to kill and maim people at random – not military targets.

If Israel’s intent was to secure peace in the region, how is it that in over 40 years they have not assembled the diplomatic skills to reach a peaceful agreement that is based on the consensus of international opinion? If their intent was peaceful they could have adopted numerous alternatives to war-making. I have already mentioned the international consensus and international law, which they could have followed decades ago. They could have allowed an international presence in the West Bank and Gaza to maintain peace, as the Palestinians were crying for over many years. They could have responded to decades of non-violent protest by Palestinians with offers to negotiate, not kill. They could have chosen to accept the election of Hamas (partially Israel’s creation in any case) being just as legitimate as the election of Olmert or Livni or whoever, instead of using the opportunity to wage an economic war against the Palestinian people, whose only crime was to vote as they chose.

ARE THOSE ENOUGH WORDS FOR YOU, HANNAHRE?

Aherodias, it is unbelievably devastating to see the loss of life, especially as a person who loves - yes, loves - Israel and is not merely a person reading headlines with little to no familiarity of the region. I'm not saying you are that second person; I simply have a strong connection to the country.

That said, I want nothing but peace for both Israel and anyone else on the other side, whether it be geographical, political, or geopolitical. Why wouldn't I? I live a very happy and peaceful life and feel that I have no reason to keep anyone from enjoying exactly that.

 Going with Hannahre's point about the numbers, yes, as I said, a ratio of nearly 1000 deaths to less than 20 is absolutely heartbreaking
and an inconvient truth to those that support Israel, but
proportionality can negate history. More German soldiers died than
English soldiers - does that mean that the German soldiers fought for the right cause? (I am assuming you'd say no.)
Should Israel return the 10 000 rockets from the past eight years
launched from the Gaza strip prior to Cast Lead? Clearly, rockets are not lives, but the intent was to kill - rocket science.

You say that "[Israel has] not assembled the diplomatic skills to reach a peaceful agreement" but I am wondering just who in the Middle East wears that description. I acknowledge that my following question isn't original but it something that I am genuinely curious about: Who is Israel's partner for peace? 

I think that Anyone who has a problem with Isreal defending it's people in the south should send their own children to live there for a year and then after you hear you own children crying, maybe you will understand the need to free Gaza and the world of Hamas!!! If you wouldn't go there to live or send your own children to live there then you should SHUT UP and keep on living in the safety of your own home..and..any people that would vote a Terrorist organization into power is just asking to go to war!

Televivacious - it's a pleasure to rspond to you becuase you appear to be soneone who a) is acutally looking for answers, and b) has a well-developed heart.

On the subject of numerical comparisons, let us not forget that 6 million Jews and countless other gays, leftists, other religionists died at the hands of the Nazis. I would say that implies clearly who the victims were. Secondly, you may have noted that the British did not attack Germany (well, they did in a way, but not militarily). 

The German soldiers in the main were not fighting for any justifiable cause. If they had a cause, it was patriotism, the principle reason for unwarranted death and destruction in the modern world.

Of course Israelis have every reason to fear rockets raining (or should I say drizzling?) down on them. And who could deny that rockets coming from Palestine were intended to kill or at least injure? 

But I am surprised that you resort to distractions instead of addressing the substantive issues, which I only outlined above, i.e. the 40-odd years of oppression, often brutal; the  cruel siege lasting more than 18 months, in which hundreds of Gazans died from lack of human essentals and/or medical treatment; the fact that Palestinians waited quietly and peacefully for 20 years before starting the first Intifada (which I believe was topicaly provoked by Israel anyway); the 5000 Palestsinian civilians who died at the hands of Israel over an eight-year period. I could go on for a hundred pages reciting these evils - of which I, as a Jew, am deeply ashamed, because they so deeply violate the lessons of the Torah.

I cannot ignore the suffering of Israelis, and I will not say, as so many Zionists say about their opposition, "They brought it on themselves." I believe strongly, however, that Israeli leadership had hundreds of chances to respond to Palestinian demands in a peaceful, or at least nonviolent, way. The fact that they chose the path of violence, which never, ever resolves a human issue, means that they have caused their own people to needlessly endure great suffering for decades.

I cannot preach to Hamas. Why would they possibly listen to me, who they probably regard as part of the enemy? But as a Jew I can take responsibility to talk to other Jews, even Israelis, and try to help them envision and implement peace. By the way, I know several Israelis living here in the US who agree with almost everything I say, especially about the current catastrophe.

You ask the question, which I regard as a cliche emanating from Iraeli government propaganda: who is the partner for peace?

In April 2008, Khaled Meshaal, usually referred to as the leader of Hamas, was interviewed by Al-Ayyam, a pro-Fatah Palestinian newspaper, In that interview he repeated what Hamas has publicly said numerous times, that he would “accept a Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 boundaries”, although he stopped short of recognition of Israel.

In 2002 the Arab League proposed to formally recognize Israel and assume normal relations with Israel, in exchange for withdrawal from the occupied territories and agreement to negotiate based on the pre-1967 borders. They renewed the exact same offer recently.

The Israeli government has chosen to treat these offers of negotiation with contempt. In fact, historically at least 90 percent of peace offers from Palestine have been rejected by Israel as “publicity ploys.” Don’t believe me, just Google on “israel publicity ploy” and spend a couple of hours reading the  news reports from Ha’aretz, Maariv, etc. The United States government reinforces this obstinacy by saying we should “never negotiate with terrorists” (What bullshit, you should pardon my French); witness Hillary Clinton in the congressional hearings yesterday.

So I assert that if you define every potential negotiating partner as off limits, you will never find a partner to talk to.

Let’s face it, the Israeli government has done a superb job of writing self-justifying copy and has convinced too many Israelis, struggling in the midst of fear, of the truth of their deceptions. Just two days ago I got an email from the Israel Prime Minister’s office in which nearly every sentence was not just a falsehood but a blatant lie. And yet, packaged together in one slick press release, even I found it almost believable. If you like I can send you the letter with my critique sometime.

I want to conclude by telling you, and Yakira77, that Hamas is not the issue. Hamas has promoted many hateful views, wants to create the Islamic version of Israel in Gaza, and is certainly responsible for much needless suffering to the people of Gaza – my goodness, what would you expect if, as the little 6-year old boy, you decided to smack the 12-year old school bully?  But numerous unbiased sources attest to Israel’s financial support for Hamas since the late 1970s, because “the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)" [Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.] The Palestinian people bore the yoke of oppression for 40 years before Hamas came into power. Hamas is not the issue.

I urge you – and yakira77, of course – to not rely on clichés and propaganda statements. If you really want to  understand about Israel/Palestine, begin by trying to challenge any and all of the statements I put out as facts (not my statements of opinion). Once you have done that exercise, I urge you to challenge all that you have accepted as fact in the past and see if it passes the test of inconvenient truth.

I am confident, perhaps too optimistically, that you will see at least a little more light than you saw before.
Respectfully yours.

Postscript for Yakira77: Thank god, the Israeli children of today are still crying. The Palestinian children, unfortunately, have been silenced by bullet holes.

Aherodias-

When you mention the deep violations of the lessons of the Torah, which lessons are you talking about?  And do you want to focus specifically on the Torah and exclude Nevi'im, where the Israelites are instructed by God to kill hundreds of thousands of Arabs and even punished for failing to do so, or do we stick to the Humash, throughout most of which we are slaves?

I agree with most of what you say about Israeli contributions to the problem, but I think you move onto shaky ground when you claim that the Torah counsels non-violence.  Please refute with specific lessons.

My heart breaks for the children of Gaza and the mothers and for the old of any country that are being killed in war!! 

 However, are we not killing people in Iraq now?  Did we not give power to the very leader of Iraq that we later took out and killed?  Futhermore, did we not give Bin Laden money in Afganastan to fight Russia?  To only later label him a terrorist?

My heart hurts for Anyone in war but the fact remains that war happens because goverments want to make changes in the world and I believe that Hamas Is the issue and if the world would let them stay in Gaza they would continue to smuggle into the country until they one day had enough power to attack Israel, and Yes, kill EVERYONE to rename Israel because they can not accept Israel..

That is the main problem..Israel's ritght to exist..Leave Israel in peace and Israel leaves you in peace..

May G-d be with the people of Israel and Gaza..May G-d speak to the hearts of both sides because I believe it will take supernatural power to make arab nations accept a Jewish state.

I am praying that Gaza is a safe place for the children to play in the streets and laugh but when a people teach their children to hate us it will be hard for Israel to help them, as when we put out our hand in friendship, they throw rocks and strap bombs to their own children and women.  So it would seem that they have no love or respect for the lives of their own children!! 

If you lived in Serdot with your children for the past 7 years I know you would be asking your nation, "What about me and my children?, Will you not protect us? Give us a safe way to live with out fear of being hit and killed while trying to enjoy life" 

I would Love to see the people of Gaza free to live as I do but first they have to accept life as it is and Israel's place in it and stop the violence from with in.  

I will leave you with this; if Tucsan was being hit with rockets for 7 years what would you be saying to your leaders?  What you expect to be done about it to ensure your safety?  I will go on to say that rockets would Never fall on your city for 7 years without an american reaction.  We would send war planes and troops immediately and stop it and you would be glad and feel safe and if you say otherwise I believe you to be a liar.

Have a good day in the safety of your American home and pray for the people of Gaza and donate to the International Red Cross and do what you can but also put yourself in the place of the Israeli's that are tired of being afraid to live and fearful for Hamas to build their strength to really kill all of us because if you are Jewish they wish to see You dead too. Shalom 

Yakira:

I have to apologize for the closing paragraph in my last comment. I had no desire to be patronizing and I'm sorry that i wrote that way.

Please understand that I empathize totally with the fear of all Israelis for their lives and the lives of their children. After all, have we not seen much bloodshed on Israeli soil in the past?

But I also would like you  listen through your tears and try to understand beyond your fears. You know, when the World Trade Center went down everyone, including me, cried for the peole who died and especially for the people they left behind. But I want you to understand that I do not place the ultimate blame on Bin Laden and his terrorist gang. All he did was pull the trigger of a gun that the United States prepared for him with decades of brutal economic policies, policies that caused huge suffering al around the globe (though not here, of course). If the United States (acting on behalf of its bankers) did not bring ruin and starvation to millions upon millions of people -- then Bin Laden would never have appeared on international television. He would be irrelevant.

I feel more or less the same way about Hamas.  Why would  any Palestinian choose Hamas for her leadership if there were no brutal 40-year occupation, no inhuman siege causing suffering and sometimes death for a million Gazans, no exxtrajudicial killings of "suspected dissidents"? 

But in the end they chose Hamas - in an internationally recognized free and fair election - and were met  immediately with collective punishment,

Okay, that's my rant about Hamas. Now - what about all the years before Hamas?

And what about the West Bank? Israel gets no rocket fire from the West Bank. Nevertheless, all the while the "truce" was in effect, Israel never stopped bringing in more illegal settlers (up to a half million now), never stopped assassinating "suspected dissidents", never stopped grabbing land, never interfered with settler violence against West Bank natives. You couldn't have asked for more cooperation from the 
Palestinian Authority -  Mahmoud Abbas even used his forces to stop West Bankers from demonstrating in support of Gaza.  None of that has spared a single Palestinian in the West Bank
 from colonial policies that Israel has carried out with determination for 40 years.

Maybe you didn't notice, but Israeli intelligence reported that a) the number of rockets coming from Gaza was at an absurdly low level - anywhere from 1 to 8 per month for 6 months, and b) none of those rockets was fired by Hamas (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ham...).

Maybe you didn't notice, but Ha'aretz reported that Olmert and Barak had been planning in detail an invasion of Gaza for more than six months ((Barak Ravid, Operation "Cast Lead": Israeli Air Force strike followed months of planning, Haaretz, December 27, 2008). 

I'm asking you, no to stop grieving for israeli and Palestinian children, but to recognize the real root causes of the violence and the real possibilities for peace. I wish I had more time to go into detail, but I will have to save that for a later discussion. Would you, or anyone else,  like to talk about who started most of israel's wars?