What Do Half-Jewish People Want from the Jewish Establishment?

Now I know why the defensive hairs on the back of my neck are erect. You have pointed your finger at me. I do take the "It's Jewish only" and forsake any other religious identity  when outreaching to my neice. Yes she has a non jewish father and a wonderful loving non jewish grandma and yes they celebrate christmas and easter.and yes when I get her alone i do indoctrinate her with jewish bible stories and jewish religious customs. I have repeatedly told her that she is not half christian/ half jewish. What do you want from me? My beloved kosher raised bat-mitzvahed teen toured Israel sister married a wonderful handsome loving shaygitz athiest.

i want my neice to self identify as jewish, not halfish.

It is easier for me to have one religion, which is why I choose Judaism. I identify as wholly Jewish, and wholly Halfish - Jewish in a religious sense, but Halfish in a cultural sense. I don't feel I should have to hide the truth about who I am or where I came from in order to fit in. Why should I be ashamed of the non-Jewish half of my family, who loved me and provided for me? When Jewish institutions insist on ignoring or rejecting the full spectrum of our combined heritages, they are saying we are worth less than converts from other faiths and interfaith couples. That may not be the intended message, but it seems as though it is - and it is the message that comes through, regardless. I can be a committed religious Jew while still loving the "goy" father who brought me into the world, and his relatives.

As Rabbi Hillel said, what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary.

Robin, I appreciate the work you do, and I have read many of your articles. Here are some points I'd like to make:

I think that you speak too generally regarding adult children of intermarriage, using "we" too liberally (I disagree with some things that you write, yet am lumped under your "we"), but our community does need a chamption, and you're certainly not afraid to state your case, make demands, and take names.  Bravo.

I chuckled when I read this (so true of my experience):

"other Jews with more curiosity than tact are plenty willing to remind them: 'You look kinda Swedish. Are you black? Hey, are you an Asian convert?'"

I think you're way off base when you proclaim that adult children of intermarriage who are against intermarriage are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.  I hope that was a joke.  Lest we forget, Judaism is an organized religion.  Organized religions, especially ones that emphasize tradition, are full of rules that don't necessarily serve everyone equally, or even make sense.  That's par for the course.  Observant religious people are likely going to champion those rules, and that includes adult children of intermarriage and Jews by Choice.  So I don't think it's surprising at all that observant Jews, regardless of their parentage, who are in denominations that condemn intermarriage also condemn intermarriage.  That has nothing to do with the Stockholm Syndrome.  

Personally, I didn't have a positive experience growing up in a basically secular, interfaith home, and would prefer to raise my kids in one religion.  Since that faith is likely to be Judaism, I would prefer having a Jewish partner.  But I don't think there's anything abnormal about that, even if I weren't Jewish.  A lot of people want to marry someone from their religion without a holy mandate from the clouds - it's a comfortable common ground, and a beautiful thing to share.  I want a partner who's at my side as we light candles on Friday, watch the mohel snip the tip, etc.    

To be somewhat redudant, I think my main criticism of what I've read from you is that you're looking for Judaism to shift itself to fit the needs of everyone (your great grandmother on your father's side was a Jew?  Come on down!  You're a Jew, too!).  But that spits in the face of Judaism's longstanding history as a religion replete with traditions that are inconvenient and somewhat nutty.  Demanding that all interfaith children be admitted to the party because it "feels right" is tugging at threads that, when unraveled, could leave you with a do-whatever-you-feel Judaism, as empty as the bulk of the bar and bat mitzvahs I attended in middle school.  It also emphasizes the racial or ethnic aspects of Judaism over the religious and tribal ones, which I think is dangerous and erroneous.   

I agree with you - there's little logic in Judaism's halachic determination that you're only a Jew if your mother was a Jew - but there's also little logic in forbidding the eating of crab cakes and building a hut in your yard once a year, wherein you shake a branch and a piece of fruit that you special ordered from the Middle East.  But those nuances make Judaism what it is.  I don't have the answers here, but I do think that a lot of the value of Jewish practice is lost when it becomes too conditionally tempered by picking and choosing what feels right.

That all said, thank you for the work that you do.  I know I wouldn't want to go head to head with the Jewish establishment.

As an addendum, if what we're basing inclusion on is "logic" and what "feels right," then what I think "makes sense" most would be having no children of intermarriage accepted as Jews unless they were raised as Jewish, and applying the same rule to kids with two Jewish parents.  Having people automatically be part of a religion they know next to nothing about isn't logical at all (Robin - this is more in response to one of your earlier articles than this one).  But many people don't want to convert because they feel entitled.  Why?  Well, because they just do.  They feel Jewish - feel connected to all of this.  I understand; I do too.  But that's not because it's logical or it makes sense.  It's just part of what makes Judaism Judaism.

Dear veganesther:

(I will reply to LevYourself in my next comment)

veganesther -- may I suggest that you consider this from your niece's point of view? Your well-meaning advocacy for her adopting a completely Jewish identity may come across as an exhortation for her to abandon or belittle her Christian father and his family. (He may be an atheist, but he is clearly culturally Christian, and his family still practices Christianity.)

Your current suggestion to her that she consider herself wholly Jewish may be violating the Jewish precept of "kibud av v'eim," respect for the father and mother.

Even the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (the abbreviated code of Orthodox Jewish law), which I am currently reading for my rabbinic program, contains a section in which converts, with apparently no Jewish parentage, are admonished to continue treating their biological, non-Jewish fathers with profound respect.

Let me suggest to you a slight change of tactics. Continue to share Jewish heritage with her whenever you are alone. Suggest that you hope that she will live as a Jew when she grows up, and that you are available to advise her.

Suggest also that ethnically she is half-Jewish -- in reality that is the truth -- and that she will always be connected to her father and his family, but that you hope she will consider being spiritually Jewish when she grows up. Explain -- in an age appropriate manner -- that even if she decides to live as a Jew when she grows up, she will always be connected to her daddy and other Christian relatives, and that Judaism will expect her to care for them and provide for them, and continue loving them, even if she lives as a Jew.

I would suggest that this approach might work better.

You had stated: "i want my neice to self identify as jewish, not halfish." veganesther, I appreciate your zeal in your outreach to your niece, and wish other Jewish families would show the same love for children of intermarriage and enthusiasm for Judaism.

But please take into consideration your niece's psychological well-being -- it can be alarming to a child to be told that you don't belong to your daddy as well as your mother.

You might find a novel by Chaim Potok, "Davita's Harp," about a child with a similar family background -- a Jewish mother and a Christian father -- useful in understanding your niece's point of view. Sometimes a novelist can present outreach ideas and strategies in more vivid ways than any outreach material!

Consider, veganesther, that I still meet children of intermarriage who were raised fifty years ago, when anti-Semitism was still rampant in America, who were told from an early age that they were "totally Christian" and consequently are deeply ashamed of their Jewish "half," and have little or nothing to do with their Jewish relatives and heritage. Some of them grew up to be anti-Semitic.

I think we can both agree that was a very undesirable outcome.

I urge my fellow Jews not to repeat Christian outreach mistakes.

Many blessings on your relationship with your niece,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Dear LevYourself:

You raise many complex issues. I hope you will be patient with rather complex replies!

You state: "our community does need a chamption, and you're certainly not afraid to state your case, make demands, and take names.  Bravo."

Thank you, Lev-Yourself. It is always deeply gratifying to have my work recognized by a fellow member of my tribe. Because of that, I hope that you will extend to me some patience as I review your your concerns. 

But first -- let's address this from your perspective -- you mention in your profile that you are looking for "a nice Jewish boy in the Bay area" and you are a male. So you are bisexual or gay? So let us look at this from your perspective, as a gay or bisexual man whose parents were intermarried.

You may not be aware that the gay movement (now the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender movement, GLBT) had the same debate you and I are having, long before you and I were born.

The early GLBT movement began with one person, a German named Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, on May 26, 1864, when his books on GLBT rights ceased being banned. His inspring story is too long to recite here, but this is a good website about it:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/

As you can see from a quick view of the website, one person decided to defy centuries of Christian tradition that GLBT people were sinners, and demand equal rights for them. He is the first known openly gay activist for GLBT rights.

Ulrichs was succeeded by, among others, a Jewish physician, Magnus Hirschfeld, who, in 1897, started the first known GLBT group (it specifically welcomed lesbians and transgenders). Dr. Hischfeld worked for the abolition of anti-gay laws. Again, a story too long to tell here, but a good website is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld

Both men went up against centuries of Jewish and Christian teachings, traditions and laws against GLBT identity and conduct. They simply refused to accept them.

Now, LevYourself, I would speculate that your internet handle, lev ("heart" in Hebrew)-yourself, is a call to self-esteem on the part of those who see it. So let's talk about self-esteem, and how this same debate took place between activists in 19th and 20th century GLBT communities.

Ulrichs and Hirschfeld didn't succeed in convincing all GLBT people to support them. Many were immobilized by their belief that old Jewish and Christian traditions calling them immoral and sinful and inferior were correct. Some forced themselves to lead heterosexual lives in an effort to change. Others preferred not to rock the boat -- they had established niches within European and American societies where they lived GLBT lives among the literary and artististic demi-monde -- they could avoid the surrounding heterosexual culture to a large extent. Some were wealthy, and simply bought their way out of any legal trouble.

But had Ulrichs and Hirschfeld not stuck to their position, your life would be a very different and much less happy one.

You stated: "So I don't think it's surprising at all that observant Jews, regardless of their parentage, who are in denominations that condemn intermarriage also condemn intermarriage."

Imagine yourself in a room full of Jewishly-observant GLBT activists -- there are many -- and devout Christian GLBT activists -- there are lots of them -- at a dinner party. Let's say there are also straight friends and allies at that party.

Let's say you state: "I don't think its surprising at all observant Jews, regardless of their [sexual orientation as GLBT people], who are in denominations that condemn [GLBT behavior] also condemn [GLBT demands for social acceptance and gay marriage.] That has nothing to do with the Stockholm Syndrome."

What would the activists seated at the dinner party around you say? Hopefully, one of the Jewish GLBT activists would order an extra drink for you, and gently say,"Lev, that's true that some Orthodox and traditionalist GLBT people are anti-gay. But it is not admirable or healthy behavior on their part. We're working to help them come out. Do you have a friend who needs a referral to an Orthodox Jewish GLBT coming out support group?"

Ideally, that activist would also say to you, "Lev, that anti-gay behavior by GLBT Orthodox and traditionalist Conservative Jews has a lot in common with Stockholm Syndrome. It's our job to wake them up."

You also state: "Since that faith is likely to be Judaism, I would prefer having a Jewish partner.  But I don't think there's anything abnormal about that, even if I weren't Jewish."

Lev-Yourself, there is nothing wrong with anyone dating Jews with two Jewish parents. But if you personally are avoiding dating other adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage -- as are some "raised Jewish" children of intermarriage -- then something would be very wrong. It would be making a negative statement about your view of yourself and your parentage.

You also state: "I think my main criticism of what I've read from you is that you're looking for Judaism to shift itself to fit the needs of everyone (your great grandmother on your father's side was a Jew?  Come on down!  You're a Jew, too!).  But that spits in the face of Judaism's longstanding history as a religion replete with traditions that are inconvenient and somewhat nutty."

Let's imagine we're back at that GLBT dinner party. You tell them: "You're looking for Judaism to shift itself to fit the needs of everyone -- ([you are GLBT] and a Jew? Come on down! You're a Jew too!) But that spits in the face of Judaism's longstanding history as a religion replete with [anti-GLBT] traditions that are inconvenient and somewhat nutty." 

What would your fellow Jewish GLBT activists say? They would say, "Did you just come out recently? Are you unaware of our decades-long battle for inclusion in Judaism, and demands that the rules change so that we can have same-sex holy unions and ordination of GLBT rabbis and cantors? We've spent thousands of dollars and hours fighting with almost every denomination in Judaism to achieve these changes! Of course, we demand that Judaism give up these traditions! They're not just inconvenient and nutty -- they reinforce extremely dangerous homophobia worldwide!"

And the discrimination against children and other descendants of intermarriage within Judaism is not merely "inconvenient" or "nutty" -- it has a dramatic impact on our lives. It leads to low-self esteem for many of us. We are often shut out of Jewish spiritual and secular institutions. We lose our connections to Jewish family members, who are often indoctrinated to reject us, right down to removing us from their wills.  We are disadvantaged in dating and entering marriage and same-sex partnerships with other Jews with two Jewish parents -- some of whom won't date us or make friends with us -- and in some circles we are hampered in obtaining shidduchim. If we manage to enter Jewish institutions, even liberal ones, we are often subtly discriminated against for the entire term of our membership.

In Israel, the consequences of being a "non-Jewish" citizen (i.e. the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother) are even more deadly. They are deprived of fundamental civil rights. Even the children of Jewish mothers and Christian fathers are required to produce considerable proof of a biological Jewish mother -- proof which can be rejected by Orthodox rabbinic authorities, with considerable personal consequences for the half-Jewish person.

Right now, there is a law in front the Knesset which would allow patrilineal Jews to marry in civil unions -- right now they can't get married to any Jews in Israel -- but the law will only allow them to marry other patrilineal Jews. They will not be allowed to marry matrilineal Jews or Jews with two Jewish parents. This goes way, way, way beyond "inconvenient" and "nutty." I think we can safely use the phrase "human rights violations."

You then state: "Demanding that all interfaith children be admitted to the party because it "feels right" is tugging at threads that, when unraveled, could leave you with a do-whatever-you-feel Judaism."

Let's rephrase that for the GLBT dinner party: "Demanding that all [GLBT Jews] be admitted to [Judaism] because it "feels right" ... could leave you with a do-whatever-you-feel Judaism."

That's exactly the argument that was advanced for 40 years by the Conservative movement against accepting GLBT people as shul members and ordination of GLBT rabbis and cantors. Many Reform and Orthodox Jews also advanced this argument within their respective denominations. Do you think that argument was correct? Of course not!

You also state: "Demanding that all interfaith children be admitted to the party because it "feels right" . . . . emphasizes the racial or ethnic aspects of Judaism over the religious and tribal ones, which I think is dangerous and erroneous."

Let's revisit the GLBT dinner party. You tell them: "Demanding that all [GLBT Jews] be admitted to [Judaism] because it "feels right"  . . . . emphasizes the racial and ethnic aspects of Judaism over the religious and tribal ones, which I think is dangerous and erroneous."

That was an argument frequently used against GLBT Jews for the last fifty years in their campaign for equality within the Jewish community. Would your dinner companions agree with it?

Lev-Yourself, I'm not the one who is obsessed with "racial and ethnic aspects of Judaism" -- sadly, it is many of my fellow Jews with two Jewish parents. Otherwise you and I would be comfortably embedded in Judaism and not having this discussion.

You then state: "there's little logic in Judaism's halachic determination that you're only a Jew if your mother was a Jew - but there's also little logic in forbidding the eating of crab cakes and building a hut in your yard once a year, wherein you shake a branch and a piece of fruit that you special ordered from the Middle East.  But those nuances make Judaism what it is."

Imagine that you advanced this argument at the GLBT dinner party: "there's little logic in Judaism's halachic determination that you're only a [good Jew] if you [are completely heterosexual] -- but there's also little logic in forbidding the eating of crab cakes . . . . But those nuances make Judaism what it is."

I think we can say that your Jewish GLBT dinner companions wouldn't react well?

Hopefully, one of them would say to you, "Lev -- oppression and discrimination against GLBT people is not the same thing as the laws on kosher food. We must not confuse degrees of observance of rituals with outright harm, humiliation and exclusion of our fellow GLBT people. Also, why do you think that the admission of GLBT people as full members of the Jewish community will result in an abandonment of the kosher food laws or Sukkot? Levels of observance are different from identity issues. GLBT people who are not knowledgeable or observant of Judaism can, if they wish, be taught more about Jewish practices. But they will never learn much about Judiasm if we continue to allow abusive discrimination and communal shunning of them by the Jewish community."

You state: "That all said, thank you for the work that you do.  I know I wouldn't want to go head to head with the Jewish establishment."

Lev-Yourself, thank you for appreciation of my work. It is heart-warming to be acknowledged by my fellow members of the "mixed parentage" tribe.

Now we must talk a little about the moral responsibility of each half-Jewish person who identifies as a Jew towards their fellow half-Jewish folks of all persuasions and backgrounds.

My message is not only for Jews with two Jewish parents to become more accepting of half-Jewish people. Obviously, I expect my fellow half-Jewish folks who identify as Jews to also work for our acceptance. How can I ask Jews with two Jewish parents to open their hearts, if I do not ask my fellow half-Jewish folks to also step up to the plate and do the same?

Let us return to Karl Heinrich Ulrichs. He publicly came out on August 29,1867. Up until then he had written under a pseudonym. But he resolved to give a speech -- before an assembly of German lawyers -- here is his statement about why he imperiled his career and his life (the italics are his emphasis):

"Until my dying day I will look back with pride when on August 29, 1867, I found the courage to come face to face in battle against the specter of an age-old, wrathful hydra which for time immemorial has been injecting poison into me and into men of my nature. Many have been driven to suicide because all their happiness in life was tainted. Indeed, I am proud that I found the courage to deal the initial blow to the hydra of public contempt.

What gave me strength at the last moment finally to mount the speaker's box at the Association of German Jurists was the awareness that at that very moment, the distant gaze of comrades of my nature was fixed on me. Should I return their trust with cowardice? Also giving me strength were thoughts still fresh, indeed, still smoldering, of a suicide caused by the ruling system, in Bremen in 1866. And also a letter I received as I was on my way to our session, informing me that a colleague had remarked about me, "Numa [Ulrich's pseudonym as an author] is afraid to take action."

Lev-Yourself, I thoroughly believe in the message of your pseudonym, the message of self-esteem and self-love. So I call upon each descendant of intermarriage who self-identifies as a Jew, and reads this to consider doing the following for the sake of our own self-esteem and that of our fellow descendants of intermarriage. I ask each one of them to consider engaging in the following steps in ways that are comfortable to them and appropriate to their personal circumstances:

1. Cease concealing one's dual heritage from other Jews;

2. Rebuke, at least in one's own Jewish circles, comments from other Jews that put down adult children and other descendants of intermarriage;

3. Work for the inclusion of other half-Jewish people within your Jewish community and other Jewish communities worldwide, and for the establishment of programming and welcoming venues for them;

4. Consistently object to any discrimination against half-Jewish people -- no matter how ancient, no matter how "halachic," no matter how sanctioned for centuries, no matter whether it occurs in your Jewish community or another one, including Israel;

5. Work on developing pride and self-esteem about your unique and valuable life as a Jew of dual heritage and help others like yourself to develop it;

6. Befriend (where interested) and (where interested) date other descendants of intermarriage as well as born Jews with two Jewish parents;

7. Show kindess and recognition of Jewish ethnic ties to other descendants of intermarriage who have chosen non-Jewish spiritual and ethnic paths from the other side of their family; and

8. Recognize that half-Jewish people (ethnically speaking) will be the majority of American Jews, and probably also in other Diaspora countries in the year 2040, and work to encourage and educate those interested in Judaism,  so that we will be prepared to carry on Jewish civilization from that point forward.

Lev-Yourself, I don't expect every half-Jewish person who identifies as a Jew to become a firebrand activist -- I expect each one of them, in her or his own way, to do little bits of this work on a regular basis. Cultures are changed not just by firebrand activists, but by decent, earnest people, often unremarked by their fellow citizens, who patiently do mitzvot that will result in change.

In conclusion, even discussion of this issue is a mitzvah. In Pirke Avot 3:6, "Rabbi Chalafta ben Dosa of Kfar Chananya said: If ten people sit together and occupy themselves with Torah, the Divine Presence rests among them . . . . From where do we lear that the same is true even of two? For it is stated: Then the God-fearing conversed with one another, and the Lord hearkened and heard."

Many blessings on your quest for a partner,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Now I could use a little help. My daughter  has been dating  for three years  a half jewish  man. The first time she celebrated easter with his family she  enjoyed the Chocolates, the colorful eggs the family dinner(she did not eat the ham). She has spent Christmas with his family for the past 4 years.

when she marries this young man and when they have children it will pain me to think that her children will celebrate these holidays with his family.

can you understand that? I fear  my grandchildren will prefer christian celebrations over our Jewish ones. And we celebrate with pomp and flair all the Jewish holidays. I love this guy she is dating. He is good to her and because his mother is Jewish and he had a brit and a bar-mitzvah I always considered him jewish but after reading your articles I realize he is half -jewish half christian.

Dear veganesther:

I totally understand your concerns about your future grandchildren.

But a grandparent can have immense influence, more than any other relative.

Many adult children of intermarriage have told me that they are Jewish because one of their Jewish grandparents took an interest in them, bought them Jewish presents, such as Star of David jewelry and books, took them to shul, etc.

Often their intermarried parents raised them in another faith, or as "nothing," but the Jewish grandparent's influence won out.

Other children of intermarriage reported being snubbed by their Jewish grandparents in favor of wholly Jewish cousins, cut out of their will, not given Israel trips when their cousins were, etc., which sometimes influenced them against Judaism.

I remained Jewish partly because at very dark moments, my deceased Jewish grandmother, zichrona liveracha, (may her memory be for blessing), actively supported me in my decision to leave Christianity and live as a Jew.

For advice that is grandparent-specific -- I'm more knowledgeable about adult children of intermarriage -- I would suggest contacting:

www.interfaithfamily.com

and

www.joi.org

Both of these groups are Jewish outreach groups with resources for Jewish grandparents (or potential grandparents) of baby partial-Jews. They would have books you could read and other Jewish grandparents or potential grandparents that you could email and talk with.

Regarding your situation, it sounds to me like your son-in-law is Jewish-identified. Many intermarried families do celebrate Christmas and Easter to keep the Christian spouse (in his case, his father) happy. It won't necessarily influence your grandchildren to become Christians.

If you show your future grandchildren a lot of love, and a strong Jewish example, that can have a powerful weight. I'm betting on you!

Many blessings for happy grandchildren,

Robin

I agree with LevYourself in appreciating what you do, Robin, and that you were the first to write about the identity of interfaith children in your groundbreaking book, "Between Two Worlds." But I also agree with him (though I suspect he doesn't approve of my pathway) that it is misleading to continue to imply that you represent all adult interfaith children. We are a diverse group, and have many voices in the blogosphere now.

 Of the three of us, it seems I am the only one who was raised exclusively as a Jew (despite being a patrilineal "half-Jew"). I have an entire blog (http://onbeingboth.com/), as you know, about why I, and a growing number of interfaith families have made a different choice for our children--to educate them in both religions. And our communities now include adult interfaith children who are not parents, who simply want to be able to explore both religions, while surrounded by fellow interfaith children.

So for us (and I speak here of adult interfaith children who have joined interfaith family communities across the country), greater Jewish outreach to adult interfaith children would not be at the top of the list of what we want. We find some of the outreach to be uncomfortably close to proselytizing. Based on our own experiences, we need and want neutral space to feel whole, to be protected from the tribal and theological pressures and conflicts, or if we want to, to wrestle with the barriers to Judaism including Israeli policies and the matrilineal/patrilineal conflict, barriers which you, Robin, have described so well. These barriers are going to be there no matter how welcoming the outreach is, so the outreach can feel disingenuous, or like a bait and switch.

 I understand that as someone who is studying to be a rabbi, Robin, you want these changes in outreach--your focus is on the Jewish half. Personally, if I want something from Judaism, it would be to see the change LevYourself suggests (and many of us have suggested) for defining Jews--to remove the last of the tribalism and allow Judaism to become a matter of belief, rather than bloodlines. The attractions of Judaism itself are many. If Jewish institutions dismantle the policies that exclude those who want to be Jews, it would no longer be necessary to pump so much money into outreach.

Susan Katz Miller

Robin,

I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my comment.  I have to say, though, that focusing so heavily on the comparison between LGBT issues and those faced by adult children of intermarriage didn't land well with me.  I don't see them as similar, and my experience of being on the receiving end of both has emphasized their differences.  Any of us can convert to Judaism, after all (at least in theory), and it is very different to hear "you aren't really Jewish" or "you should convert" rather than "God hates you" or "you are an abomination."  (They are both awful, but also not the same.)  If the Jewish denominations that I was interested in didn't support LGBT rights, I wouldn't participate in them.  If they supported gay rights but didn't accept matrilineal Jews of intermarriage, I would convert to join.  There's a huge difference between something that you are and something that you can choose to be at any time by going through a fairly standard, albeit difficult, process.  Also, I do not believe that ill treatment of adult children of intermarriage is a civil rights issue, except, maybe, in Israel, which is a whole different mess that I won't go into here.  I hear you, don't get me wrong, but I don't really agree with your analogy, and I think comparing forms of oppression like that loses sight of the important distinctions between them.

Personally, I'm not opposed to intermarriage in general, and when I think of my ideal partner, I would like to be with another Jew, but I don't limit myself to people with two Jewish parents, and I don't care which of the parents is Jewish.  That said, I also recognize that other adult children of intermarriage oppose intermarriage, reasonably (in my opinion), based on their denomination and experiences, and I don't think there's anything abnormal or psychologically amiss about that (re: Stockholm Syndrome).  I also don't think there's anything weird or wrong with Jews who don't acknowledge patrilineal descent or condemn homosexuality - they are following their traditions, and while I wouldn't choose those beliefs, I honor their right to have them.  I believe very strongly in the freedom of religion, which includes the freedom to believe something radically different from the culture you're in.  And yes, I am still saying that as a gay man living in a state where we lost gay marriage largely because of Mormons. 

In terms of pulling at the threads of Judaism and watching it unravel like a sweater, I legitimately ask that question, but not with fervor.  Where is the line when something vauable is lost?  I'm not sure, but I know it's there.  I've seen my family suffer as the result of it.  When does Judaism become a watered down husk of itself?  A mirage?  

I apologize for being so snarky in my comments.  I like a good giggle of hyperbole and probably should have cooled that a bit, given the weighty context.  

In terms of patrilineal vs. matrilineal, I personally don't care, but I also am comfortable with Jewish institutions's right to define that how they want.  Again, if patrilineal people feel shut out of Conservative or Orthodoxy, they can always convert.  But more than that, if they are looking for oustide validation of their Judaism instead of within, through a personal connection with God and Torah, I think they'll always find reasons to be disappointed.  Someone is always ready to declare that someone else isn't really Jewish, regardless of their ethnic heritage or conversion status.  

To clarify, my personal issue with the intermarriage situation is that children of matrilineal descent and Jews by Choice are often also rejected or ill treated by Jews, even though they are technically Jewish.  From my perspective, that is staggeringly hypocritical.  To not accept people of patrilineal descent as Jews, while not personally my belief, doesn't seem hypocritical if you're Orthodox or Conservative.  It's a very old tradition, and far as I know, only the liberal branches of Judaism believe otherwise.  I think that the ill treatment of matrilineal Jews and Jews by Choice is a separate issue from whether or not patrilineal Jews are Jewish, and in my opinion, the hypocrisy is more of an immediate concern than coaxing the Orthodox into redefining "Who is a Jew?"(and more likely to have success).  And to tack on to what Susan mentioned, I'm all for abolishing the idea that Judaism is an ethnicity or race.  That reeks to me of Nazism and unfounded ethnocentrisim, and if that means I need to take a dip in a mikvah, so be it.  I think it also wouldn't hurt if adult children of intermarriage weren't called converts, but rather had a different name that doesn't imply that they had no claim to Judaism to begin with.  Like you so often emphasize, Robin, being an adult child of intermarriage is not the same as being an adult child of two Jewish parents.  

Susan,

For what it's worth, I don't have any issues with your path at all. That said, you're also not demanding that the Jewish community put a statue of Christ on the Torah ark, which, yes, would bother me.  I think that what you choose to believe in your home and community is your business.  My issue has never been one of personal religious freedom, but more that I think we should be realistic about what is already out there (and that we should tread carefully if we want to change longstanding traditions, deeply considering what impact those shifts can have).  I.e., it would be foolish for a child of patrilineal descent to go to Chabad and expect to be accepted.  But why do they need to feel accepted by Chabad?  If they really care, convert.  If they don't, then the point's pretty moot unless we're talking about Israel.

I'll admit, your path doesn't make sense to me, mostly because of the Jesus part, but I certainly think it's yours to have as you want.  I'm an avid Yogi who blends many Eastern elements into my path, and I don't see a conflict there either.  But again, I'm also not walking up to the rabbi in the middle of Shabbat services and suggesting that we chant AUM, or that we reform Judaism to embrace Taoist philosophy.  I don't think I know what's best for all of Judaism (or if there even is such a thing!), but I do think I know what's best for myself, if that makes sense.  I attend a Renewal congregation that practices Jewish meditation and has a lot of wonderful singing, and I'm pretty sure everyone feels accepted there - Jewish, Jew-ish, and non-Jew.

That said, I do wonder what your children's experiences will be when they are in college if they want to go to Hillel, as quarter Jews who are simultaneously Christian, but time will tell.  And I'm optimistic.  The point I didn't make in my first comment is that things are definitely improving, and it's my experience that the more common children of intermarriage are, the less the people around me care.  For my grandmother, it would have been scandalous to intermarry.  For my mother, it was a familial disappointment, but she wasn't disowned.  For me, there is no pressure whatsoever, and I know a lot of half-Jewish people in the same boat.

Lev 

Dear Lev-Yourself:

I chose the GLBTcomparison, because I always try to talk with people from where they currently stand in their current lives -- their "makom" or place, if you will.

I won't reply at great length, because I've already done so once before, so I'll keep this brief.

I would guess that the core of your argument would be the following statement:

"I also don't think there's anything weird or wrong with Jews who don't acknowledge patrilineal descent or condemn homosexuality - they are following their traditions, and while I wouldn't choose those beliefs, I honor their right to have them."

I think that is the dividing line.

I don't "honor" the rights of other people to oppress me and the other adult children of intermarriage, just as I don't "honor" the rights of other people to oppress GLBT people.

Lev-Yourself, consider that if the GLBT movement had followed that line of thinking, they'd still be a criminalized minority hiding under pseudonyms in dank, Mafia-owned bars, like in the 1950s. They don't "honor" Jewish and Christian religious traditions that have marginalized and oppressed them, and they vigorously oppose Jewish groups and people who try to publicly enforce those traditions.

And the GLBT Jewish movement has been very successful in curtailing the mistreatment of GLBT people with Judaism. I hope to emulate that success with the adult children and other descendants of intermarriage.

I and the other members of the Half-Jewish Network don't "honor" Jewish traditions that have marginalized and harmed matrilineal or patrilineal children of intermarriage while claiming G-d or the Torah or Judaism or Jewish continuity or morality -- or the excuse du jour -- there's always some excuse --  is on their side. And I will continue to fight back and organize other children of intermarriage to do likewise.

I have a number of GLBT half-Jewish folks in the Half-Jewish Network. They've been warmly welcomed. And they don't feel any obligation to "honor" Jewish traditions which are harmful to us. They are extremely vocal on that point.

They -- and the straight members of my group -- would be totally surprised to hear you make a distinction between the patrilineals' struggles over conversion and the hypocritical lip service Jewish groups pay to accepting matrilineals -- which is rarely more than lip service. To them it is one basic issue: none of us are really acceptable to Judaism because we have one non-Jewish parent or grandparent. 

Now, you may not think that I represent you, when I am out speaking and writing. But if, as you stated previously, you "wouldn't want to go head to head with the Jewish establishment," then I guess I'm elected. Someone has to do it. In my experience, oppression must be fought. It doesn't go away on its own.

Sincerely,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Dear Susan:

You don't approve of my leadership? Don't feel that I represent you and your affinity groups properly? Hey, no problem -- start a group of your own for adult children of intermarriage who practice both faiths!

Come and enjoy all of the delightful experiences I've had, including two death threats (one Jewish and one Christian), and being called "the fruit of a sin" at a federation conference in a city which will remain nameless. There are many, many other 'perks' of the position.

I would like to be present when you gave a presentation to a group of Jewish outreach workers on why you believe that your affinity groups of children of intermarriage don't want Jewish outreach, and desire "neutral space" in which to explore both cultures, and you explain that you wish "to remove the last of the tribalism and allow Judaism to become a matter of belief, rather than bloodlines."

Normally, I'm considered quite radical for suggesting -- repeatedly, for many years -- that: (1) adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage exist; (2) shuls and Jewish secular groups should organize monthly discussion groups for us; and (3) perhaps, maybe, they should treat us better, and maybe just take all of us with any recognizable Jewish ancestry? 

Join me in the eye of the hurricane! Warning: it is not comfortable there. <internet laugh>

Sincerely,

Robin Margolis

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Robin,

If your aim is to speak to people from where they stand in their lives, then you should probably assess that from something more than one line of their profiles on a website, thus denying their individual complexity and, frankly, subjecting them to the same dehumanization and objectification that you seek to criticize.  I wonder if you would have taken the same tact with an African American Jew?  "How can you understand people who are against intermarriage?  Have you learned nothing from racism?  Have you never heard of Sojourner Truth?  Here's a link to her Wikipedia page." I sure hope not.

Your goal is one that helps other people feel more comfortable with themselves, so to that end I support you.  But I still don't think that the situation faced by adult children of intermarriage is comparable to LGBT rights.

Fighing for what is already "rightfully yours" totally makes sense to me.  You have no argument from me that the treatment of matrilineal Jews of intermarriage, Jews by Choice or patrilineal Jews of intermarriage in the liberal movements, who are supposed to already be Jewish, is sub par.  That Orthodox and Conservative Judaism doesn't recognize patrilineal descent, in my opinion, is a separate issue.

[I deleted lot from this because, upon rereading this thread, it was redundant.]

Good luck with your work,

Lev

Susan's approach, teaching both religions to her children, and learning both, interests me because at the end of the day, I see the goal of religious engagement as bringing us closer to God and helping us to live ethical lives. How people choose to get there is none of my business. My purpose is to learn and grow spiritually and to develop a meaningful connection to the God of my understanding.

Lev's perspective, I don't really understand or agree with. First of all, I don't interpret what Robin is doing as an attempt to speak for all half-Jewish people. I see it more as a recognition of some of the obstacles we face. She speaks for me, speaks to my experience of wanting to explore and embrace my own ancestry, yet encountering rejection, snobbery, suspicion, and being patronized and condescended to, etc. If "traditional" Judaism says it's okay to be a jerk to people because of who their parents were, that is not what I call a spiritual value.

Unlike Lev, and apparently Susan as well, I strongly disagree with the idea that all problems can be solved by taking "race," ethnicity, or tribalism out of the equation. I agree that's a worthy goal - open the doors, the way Christianity or Islam are open to anyone. Then those not raised within the Jewish religion (according to the definition of whichever denomination) regardless of ancestry, could convert. Where this idea fails for me, though, is that in my experience, reality does not play out that way. There is still a widespread belief that one can be born Jewish, the way one can be born African-American or Asian American or GLBTQ or with brown eyes. All my life I've been treated like a half-breed, born into a situation I did not choose. Social forces beyond my control have shaped my experience. I didn't create the world as it is, I just live here.

If I had been told to convert, I would have agreed to do so. Instead, I have received multiple mixed-messages about my "status" as a Jew. I am of matrilineal descent, which in actual practice, contrary to what many patrilineals believe, does not guarantee or even promote automatic acceptance. 

From my perspective, Robin is responding to a very real social dynamic embedded in the Jewish community. Creating visibility of these issues is important to me. I find the treatment of people in my situation to be extremely hypocritical and distinctly anti-spiritual, ungodly, and at times frankly obnoxious.

While I don't expect Orthodoxy to change, and I don't expect the Conservatives to change, and don't expect the Reform movement - or any other U.S. movement - to change their standards, I see nothing wrong with trying to encourage them to do so. I admire Robin's courage and willingness to make noise about this issue.

That being said, if we need to launch our own worship communities, where we can study Jewish thought and be welcomed - if that's what it takes - I say it is the loss of Jewish organizations and denominations that wish to exclude us. If they don't want our money, fine.

I've been a do-it-yourselfer all my life. I know how to read. Here and there I have found a few willing teachers - people generous and spiritually developed enough to share what they know, because they care about making the world a better place. 

No one's opinion of who I am or what that means can prevent me from absorbing as much Jewish learning as I can get my hands on. I will learn Hebrew, I will learn about Jewish ethics, I will learn about Jewish mysticism, and like many other Americans, in the privacy of my own home I will practice my religion as I see fit. I don't need anyone's approval, ultimately. It would be nice, but I for one am not holding my breath.

I will gladly, enthusiastically, passionately support the desire of any other person with so much as one drop of Jewish blood to learn also, if Jewish ideas speak to and move them. But I will never, ever feel sympathy for any Jewish entity that complains about assimilation and whines and laments it - while at the same time treating people who want to be part of it like crap. I'd rather put my money, volunteer efforts, and time into reaching out to others who respect me and undestand what I am trying to do.

In other words, even the so-called "liberal" denominations are not that liberal. I could spend my time being angry about it, or I could move forward through the doors that open for me.

As Rabbi Hillel said, what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary.

Jewish identity is binary.  You have it or you don't. With so many examples in history or even the Torah of converts or children of mixed marriage recogized (and self recognized) as fully jewish-what's the issue?  This is of course how religious identity works.  I know so many children from mixed marriages who ,when asked "What religion do you have?" will say Jewish. Thats how they think of themselves.

Its a different thing when race or ethnicity is questioned.  The answer to a vague-What are you? might well be half this and half that.  So I think people who spend so much time pondering the  identity of  persons of mixed heritage are referring to the ethnic or racial idenity. Not religious. Even then some do not have even a whiff of identity confusion.  They identify and are identified as wholly one or the other-much like President Obama is a black man.

Its a shame that the religious establishment in Israel holds to an arbitrary tradition of matrilinealarity.  (Did I just invent a new word?) But the individual reaction to that should be to ignore it.  If you cannot ignore it and want to be jewish in the eyes of Orthodoxy or of Israel policy then just go ahead and convert officially.  No need to wring you hands for very long. Then you can be jewish fast. ( Or half fast like me)

Robin,

How about you write a letter to Rabbi Marc Angel and ask him to forward it to the International Rabbinic Fellowship (a Modern Orthodox rabbinical organization which he used to head and which he just recently handed the reigns to over to his successor)?

http://www.jewishideas.org/events/conference-international-rabbinic-fellowship:

"At the conference, the IRF voted to establish a distinguished board of Rashei Yeshiva and synagogue rabbis who will develop guidelines for a compassionate, inclusive and halakhically compelling approach to receiving converts to Judaism. The IRF strongly believes that conversions should be left in the hands of local rabbis, and not be controlled by a rabbinic hierarchy in Israel or the diaspora. The status quo is unacceptable, and the IRF intends to struggle energetically for positive change."

Rabbi Angel is a follower of Rabbi Benzion Uziel, the late Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, who argued that all the children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers should have Orthodox conversions (adherence to Orthodox halakhah not required) in order to keep these children within the Jewish people. So I'm sure Rabbi Angel would be open to your message.

I'm a patrilineal Jewish descendant who was raised Christian.  For the past several years I've been exploring Judaism.  I'm not considered Jewish by any established Jewish denomination (the progressive movements require being raised Jewish and the Conservative and Orthodox movements require having a Jewish mother).  I'm a self-identified Jew with a dual cultural identity.

I'd like to turn the question around.  A lot of interesting information has been posted about what the Jewish establishment could do for those of us who are the adult descendants of Jewish / non-Jewish parentage.

But what does the Jewish establishment want from us?  Or more to the point, what does the Jewish establishment need?   Do they need more members or are their temples and synagogues full of interested and active members?  Are their institutions financially sound?  Are their charities doing well or are they stumbling through the economic climate?  Do they need people who are working in fields such as law, accounting, psychology, social work, and teaching to donate professional services?  Are there enough twenty and thirty-something members who have the energy to help keep the temple grounds up?  How self-sufficient is the Jewish establishment? 

I have degrees in accounting and English literature.  I donate professional accounting services to a secular charity to help low-income families.  Also, my dog is a therapy dog.  We belong to a secular charity that uses therapy dogs in several programs such as visiting area nursing homes and volunteering in library programs where children with learning disorders read to the dogs.

I enjoy volunteer work.  Performing a mitzvah can really bring me closer to G-d.  I choose secular charities because I've been told I'm not Jewish by several Reform and Conservative rabbis.  Even though there are so many adults from mixed descent, the fact that these rabbis are so dismissive, I can only assume that the Jewish establishment is doing well and doesn't need us.

If there is a Jewish temple in the DC metro area (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox, etc) who would be interested in someone willing to donate accounting services or join Jewish charities helping the elderly and children, please respond to my post.

But please keep in mind, I don't have the interest in a conversion.  Like many people with my background, I connect to G-d by performing a mitzvah.  This is how I view myself as a Jew.   That's something my Jewish father taught me.

A half-Jewish identity is not a Jewish/Non-Jewish binary but rather a Both/And unity. It is not necessarily a symptom of confusion or inner conflict, but may simply be the recognition of a complex set of circumstances. Of course it is possible to be both religiously Jewish and ethnically mixed. This is how I think of myself.

The problem for many Halfies is not how we think of ourselves, but how others react to and/or define us according to our ancestry - as Too Jewish among non-Jews, and Not Jewish Enough among Jews. That is not a choice made by me, but by others. If I say I am Jewish, and someone else says, "No, you're not," that is not a claim I have made, but a claim someone else has made for their own reasons. If I say I am Jewish, and someone else says, "Death to the kikes," that is not an attitude I have promoted, but one which comes from outside. These reactions are beyond our immediate control. They may be disregarded, but sometimes it is appropriate to try to counter them. The issue, for me at least, is not one of personal integrity or clarity, but of acceptance and welcome in the broader community.

As Rabbi Hillel said, what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary.

Dear Mordechai:

Mordechai -- When you suggested conversions, it looks like you missed part of my article. Here's what I said about conversions:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Many of us weren't willing to disappear or convert. We see Jews with two Jewish parents who were raised in other faiths or as "nothing" being welcomed back into Jewish communities with no demands for conversion or disappearance placed on them at all. There is no difference between them and us, except that we have one non-Jewish parent.  It also turned out that while Jews by Choice programs and other general outreach programs could teach us the basics of Judaism, they couldn't address many of our identity issues. We have very different issues from people with no Jewish ancestry who are converting to Judaism.

For example, Jews by Choice materials often talk about how grateful they are to be taken into the Jewish people. We admire and respect their position, and it's a rational one for them, but that's not the outlook of many half-Jewish people. Just so you know, we're not grateful.  Why should we be grateful?  Many of us believe that we are born into the Jewish people, and are upset at being chronically rebuffed and snubbed by Jewish institutions. Why should we be appreciative for doors that are repeatedly slammed on our feet?  And since the majority of children of intermarriage are continuing to be raised outside of the Jewish community, a new "lost generation" of adult children of intermarriage  is being created -- most Jewish outreach efforts still ignore us to this day."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To continue -- and even when we do try to obtain conversions: (1) many Jewish institutions won't help us; (2) the conversion process is often made unecessarily long, unpleasant, and difficult; and (3) the conversions are often challenged by other Jews, leading us to wonder:  why did we bother?

As to why we can't ignore Orthodoxy's and Israel's poor treatment of us, see an article I wrote on that:

http://www.jewcy.com/post/magenta_elephant_room_when_interfaith_people_v...

Cordially,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com 

Dear Mike:

That's an interesting suggestion. 

Now Rabbi Angel and I have corresponded. I have a lot of respect for his work in sustaining and developing Modern Orthodoxy, and am on his weekly email newsletter list.

With regard to his group's intent to create a more "user friendly" Orthodox conversion process, I can only applaud. I will contact him after I finish this comment, and ask to be kept informed as it develops. I can refer half-Jewish people to him who want to live as Orthodox Jews and seek Orthodox conversions. That would be very helpful.

But conversions via his group will not end our problems with Israel, because Israel's rabbinate has stated that they will only accept Orthodox conversions from rabbis approved by them in Israel and the U.S. 

Rabbi Angel's group refused -- quite correctly in my opinion -- to accept that power grab by the Israeli Orthodox rabbinate, so the rabbis in his group are likely not on the list of Israel-approved rabbis.

The other problem is that most children and other descendants of intermarriage who have contacted me don't want Orthodox conversions. Those who are seeking conversion generally plan to live as non-Orthodox Jews in one of the liberal Jewish denominations.

And some half-Jewish people, as I noted in my article above, have mutinied and are now refusing to get conversions at all, noting that Jews with two Jewish parents who've been raised Baptist or Buddhist, or converted to another religion on their own, can simply walk back into a shul, and everyone rushes to welcome them, and there is usually no mention of a conversion ceremony. Some half-Jewish people feel that they should be welcomed in the same manner.

My group, Inclusivist Judaism, has made the decision to welcome any adult child of intermarriage, or other descendant of intermarriage, as a Jew, provided that they want to live as a Jew and practice Judaism:

http://inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com/who-is-a-jew/

But I will contact Rabbi Angel and ask to be kept posted on the development of his organization's "user-friendly" Modern Orthodox conversion process, as that would be very helpful to some children of intermarriage.

Cordially,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Dear Friends:

Lev-Yourself and Susan Katz-Miller have suggested that maybe it is time to abandon Jewish ancestry as a criteria for determining if someone is Jewish, and make it simply a matter of faith.

That is one interesting alternative -- it is basically the Christian and Islamic model, and has certainly worked for those faiths -- but I cannot support it for Judaism. Here is a brief summary of why not, from the Inclusivist Judaism Coalition website:

"In keeping with traditional Jewish mystical ideas (Kabbalah), we believe that every person in Judaism has their own “gate” into the Torah.

We view Judaism as a prism with several facets — as a spirituality, a secular culture, and an ethnic peoplehood — some people enter Judaism through faith, some through Jewish ancestry, some through secular Jewish culture, and others through combinations of these “gates,” often switching gates several times during their lives."

http://inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com/who-is-a-jew/

I'm reluctant to shut any of the possible gates.

Just one example -- one person approaching me to join the Half-Jewish Network was a teenager -- matrilineal -- this person's mother's mother's mother was Jewish.  Technically, this person was one-eighth Jewish.

All that was left of the Jewish heritage in this family was this very young inquisitive teenager and the family copy of a Hebrew-English Bible she possessed that had belonged to her great-grandmother. The family had been Christian for four generations. She wanted to learn about Judaism.

I encouraged her to learn about Judaism, welcomed her to the Half-Jewish Network, and we answered as many of her questions as we could. She now identifies as a Jew.

What brought her to Judaism was that faint, lingering ethnic connection to a Judaism no one in her family practiced any more. She has recently consulted us about buying a new Jewish bible, as her great-grandmother's Bible is falling apart.

It was my personal pleasure to recommend to her the Jewish Study Bible by JPS.

I would suggest that we should keep as many "gates" open as possible, including those of ethnic identity and secular/cultural Judaism.

Cordially,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Robin--

 I don't understand why you are protesting so vehemently against laws that have been in existence since the begining of Judaism.  It's no secret that interfaith marraiges are destroying Judiasm. Jews who intermarry are far less likely to raise their children as Jews and their children are also far more likely to also intermarry. These are facts and no matter how much you protest you can never change them. I am happy that at least you identify as being Jewish but consider yourself one of the few. Most children of interfaith couples grow up confused, since they have no sense of community, traditiion or history. Instead what they are raised with is a hodgepodge of christianity/judiasm or nothing at all.

 As a Latina Jew I know what its like to exerience pressure to assimilate into the mainstream culture and marry a non-Jew. My family, which I can trace to the Spanish inquisiiton is full of intermarriage. Most of the children are being raised to believe in Jesus Christ and other Christian figures while their Jewish backgrounds are ignored.

 It is sad to think that an entire generation of Jews will be lost to this intermarriage. And whats worse is that you as a Rabbincal student, someone who should believe in the continuation of a Jewish people is condoning this. So please Robin get off your soap box. It's people like you who are the worse enemies of the Jews because you're destroying us from within.

JN, I can't speak for Robin but I think you misinterpreted her.

 You may disagree with some of what she says or some of the ways she suggests including "half" Jews in the Jewish community. I certainly do. But her goal is noble. I don't think she's advocating intermarriage. In fact, she's trying to be inclusive, enlarging Judaism. The fact that the parents of the people Robin advocates for have intermarried is a fact. The question now remains can we can try to include their children in the Jewish community? If not, we do risk losing Jews. But if they do remain in the Jewish community, then perhaps we have not lost any Jews at all. 

 In the future, please avoid juvenile, melodramatic phrases such  as "It's people like you who are the worse enemies of the Jews because you're destroying us from within." Really, JN? Can you not think of any greater enemy to the Jewish people than Ms. Margolis? Think about it. 

Dear Ms. JN,

We who were born to interfaith parents did not give birth to ourselves. When intermarriage is labeled as a travesty, what does that make us? Bastards? Garbage? Throwaways? Think about it.

I am not lost, nor a lost cause. As an adult who wants to live Jewishly, I find it is difficult to do so because I am judged for who my parents were. It is not the Christian community rejecting me or challenging my involvement - it is the Jewish community that questions whether I or people like me are

A) "real" Jews;

B) a worthy outreach demographic;

C) valuable potential members of any given community.

We're here. We were born. What now? Are children of intermarriage just supposed to crawl into a hole and die? Am I destroying Judaism simply because I exist?

As Rabbi Hillel said, what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary.

Dear Jacqueline:

Your comment contains what I believe are some misconceptions about intermarriage and Judaism. Let's have a quick look.

First, you state that there are clearly defined laws against intermarriage within Judaism that have been there since the beginning of Judaism.

Actually, that is a widespread misconception within the Jewish community.

The customs regarding intermarriage have varied from one historical era to the next and from one Jewish community to the next. Some Jewish communities were matrilineal, some were patrilineal, and some accepted children of either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father.For more information on this complex historical topic, please see my essay at:

http://www.half-jewish.net/whoisajew.html

Second, you state that Jews who intermarry are more likely to raise their children as Christians, and that their children are more likely to intermarry. This, too, is also a widespread misconception within the Jewish community. Recent Jewish sociological research indicates that intermarried Jews raise their children outside of the Jewish community largely because they are repeatedly rejected by the Jewish community.

In Jewish communities like the one in Boston, where the community makes a concerted outreach to intermarried couples, the majority of the children of intermarriage are raised as Jews. Any Jewish community willing to make the same effort as the Jewish community of Boston will find that intermarried couples are quite willing to raise their children as Jews if they are welcomed, instead of being snubbed.

With regard to adult children of intermarriage "intermarrying" -- again, welcoming attitudes within the Jewish community are crucial.  As the leader of the Half-Jewish Network, I have interviewed many adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage. Lots of them report receiving a very cold reception from Jewish communities, and dealing with born Jews who refuse to date them or put them down for their mixed parentage. Where they are welcomed, they are happy to date Jews.

Looking at intermarriage within a Latino context -- there are good reasons why so many intermarried Latino Jews are not raising their children as Jews or are raising them in a combination of Judaism and Christianity.

Fi rst, intermarried Latino Jews and their adult half-Jewish children are subjected to the same poor treatment as so-called 'white' intermarried Jewish-Christian couples -- in fact, they are treated worse than them.

I just interviewed the U.S. citizen son of Jewish father and a Latino Christian mother who reported being rejected by a California synagogue on the ground that they didn't want "Mexicans" in their shul. He looks like his Latina mother. They did not know that his father was Jewish, and made the decision based on how the young man looks, before he could explain to them that he has a Jewish father. He was heart-broken. He is a very sincere Jew.

Sadly, I have encountered similiar examples in my work. Given this type of poor treatment and racism, it is no wonder that some intermarried Latinos opt to raise their kids as Christians or a Judaeo-Christian mixture.

Second, the pressures for Latinos who identify as Jews to marry Christians, and raise their children as Christians or in a Judaeo-Christian mix are deeply rooted, as you are certainly aware, in a centuries-old tradition of oppression of the anusim (Jews of Spanish and Portuguese background who went into hiding to escape the Inquisition).

Old fears are not easily shaken off in one or two generations. The pressure to marry out into the Christian majority and conceal oneself and one's children is still very powerful.

Even more distressing, when many anusim -- whether intermarried or not intermarried -- do make the decision to live as Jews and contact Jewish institutions in Latin America, they often harshly rejected. No attempts are made to provide conversions or instruction of any kind.

When anusim in the United States try to join Jewish institutions, they are often treated with wariness and suspicion, and asked if they are descendants of intermarriage.

Often they are told to produce proofs of Jewish identity, something that is not easy to do when their families have been in hiding for centuries.There's nothing moral about these exclusionary policies. It is actually against most Orthodox Jewish law precedents to exclude Jews returning from "hiding."

Here's information about a anusim rabbi, himself a descendant of anusim, and the obstacles that he has faced within the Latin American and U.S. Jewish communities, trying to help other anusim. I have been in touch with him, and greatly admire Rabbi Juan Mejia's work:

http://www.koltuvsefarad.com/bioenglish.html

I think that intermarried Latino Jews and their half-Jewish children, and the anusim and their children, should be welcomed and actively outreached by Jewish communities in Latin America and North America.

Finally, I am somewhat puzzled by your comments about your own background.

If you are from a family "full of intermarriage" -- then you may be a descendant of intermarriage yourself. Why are you attacking inclusion of descendants of intermarriage within Judaism? You are, in essence, attacking the inclusion of yourself and your own relatives within Judaism. Not sure why you would do that.

I would respectfully urge you to help Rabbi Meija and other anusim groups actively working to assist anusim and other Latino Jews with entry into the Jewish community worldwide. It can only benefit Judaism, as it enters a new 21st century era with growing numbers of multiracial and multicultural families.

I believe that rabbis like Rabbi Mejia and myself are doing very valuable outreach work in helping to grow Judaism. Please consider donating to his work.

Sincerely,

Robin Margolis

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivisitjudaism.wordpress.com

Dear Jacqueline, Jakes, and Holy Halfbreed:

Jacqueline: Here is an example posted last week on Jewcy of an outreach synagogue in Tijuana, Mexico, focusing on intermarried Latino Jews and anusim Jews:

http://www.jewcy.com/post/jews_tijuana_part_two#

I think this approach is a lot better than censuring them for intermarriage and/or rejecting their adult half-Jewish children. I'm sure they'd welcome your support and would be very happy to hear from you.

Jakes -- thank you for your very kind words about my work. You are correct that we don't have to agree on each detail of outreach to adult children of intermarriage to concur that outreach to them is a good idea and will increase the number of current Jews.

Holy_Halfbreed -- I share your impatience and exasperation. It is my earnest hope that we will live to see an era where debates about half-Jewish people will concern the best ways to outreach them rather than whether we should be outreached at all.

Cordially,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Dear Robin,

I understand that a lot of your work involves doing outreach to those who are in interfaith families. I commend you for the work you've done that is trying to expand the Jewish faith. But at what cost? Yes you may be bringing more people into synagogues, but who are these people? Many of them are still retaining their original faiths or aspects of it. These people then have children who are raised in a strange mixture of Judiasm/Christianity and usually not given a Jewish education. What I don't understand is how you can condone people raising their children as two religions. Last time I checked, as Jews we don't believe in Jesus Christ and we shouldn't celebrate holidays such as christmas or easter that celebrate him as a false messiah.  I don't think bringing in people to temples who still believe in Jesus Christ is right .  

I'm not against converts or those who are making a genuine effort to be Jewish but you also have to understand that I along with many other Jewish people can not condone the destruction of the Jewish people from within. If I met an interfaith couple that was geniuinely trying to convert and become Jewish I would accept them. But an interfaith family that plans on raising their children as both religions I simply can not abide. Perhaps in the reform movement worshipping idols and false messiahs is okay but in traditiional Judaism is it not.

Jake: Intermarriage does destroy us because it leads to less and less Jews. People who condone this and try to make this acceptable should be culpable for their actions.\

HolyHalfbreed: I'm sorry that you've had bad exeriences with the Jewish world. But you have to realize that in order to be seen as a Jew you must convert.  If Judaism means a lot to you and you are willing to abandon your Christian beliefs then it should be no problem to convert.

And btw Robin I am fully Jewish, I was referring to some of my family members who are still in South America who have married gentiles and are raising their children as Christians.  Thankfully my parents cared enough about their faith to make sure to marry Jewish.

 As for those who are half (on their fathers side) I urge you to explore options to convert. Remember that the only conversion recognized is an Orthodox one .

JN, my mother was Jewish. I am a Jew. I should not have to convert. I was never a Christian, but instead raised as "nothing." This has not made acceptance automatic. I have no Christian beliefs and feel no affinity for Christianity whatsoever. Never have, never will. If I were not Jewish, I would be Buddhist.

As Rabbi Hillel said, what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary.

If intermarriage is really destroying the Jewish people, as you say, you should consider the factors leading to intermarriage. Maybe there is a reason intermarriage is occurring. It is an effect, not the cause.

 Anyway, I can understand what you are saying about intermarriage leading to a loss of Judaism. What I'm having a hard time understanding is why you're so opposed to what Robin is advocating. Believe it or not, there are some offspring of intermarriage that identify as Jews and want to be involved in Jewish life. I'm well aware that some children of intermarriage have a mixture of Jewish and Christian beliefs and that it might be uncomfortable to include them in the Jewish community. But some of them, like the poster above me, have no Christian beliefs and do not consider themselves Christians.Is it really so terrible to include them in Judaism? If we don't, then they may well be lost to Judaism.

 For the record, the Reform movement does not accept Christian beliefs or worshipping idols.

 Anyway, JN, could you please clarify what it is you have an issue with? Is it intermarriage? Or is it that Robin wants to include children of intermarriage who identify as Jews, in Judaism?        

Dear Jacqueline:

I have read your replies with interest, but I think you have confused me with Susan Katz-Miller, a patrilineal Jew, raised Reform, who does advocate raising children in both faiths, and belongs to an interfaith community of similiarly-minded people.

If you re-read my article and comments more closely, you will see that I do not advocate that. It is a position advocated in her post.

What I advocate -- when asked -- is that children of intermarriage be raised in one faith, but be given sufficient information about the other parent's culture, in a respectful manner, so that they do not grow up ashamed of their "other" half.

I am respectfully opposed to what I consider two polar opposite views on raising children of intermarriage -- the draconian "raising Jewish children" policies, which, until recently, sought complete removal of the non-Jewish parent's heritage from the home -- which leaves many adult children of intermarriage identified as Jews, but ashamed of, or concealing, their other parent and heritage -- a very psychologically unhealthy situation --

and I am also not in favor of the "raise in both" represented by the interfaith communities that Susan Katz-Miller works with. As she and I have repeatedly discussed, I deal with too many adult children of intermarriage who are "raised both" in some way, and they are often struggle for years to establish an identity.

However, I try to work with each interfaith couple and adult child of intermarriage "where they are" -- and if they prefer the "raising Jewish children" model or the "raise in both," model, that is their personal choice. I can only advise them on the pros and cons, as I see them, and await their personal decisions. There must be respect for peoples' personal decisionmaking.

 I have referred many interfaith couples and descendants of intermarriage to Jewish outreach websites and interfaith family communities that I don't personally always agree with, including Susan Katz-Miller's website. One size simply doesn't fit all, to borrow a metaphor from sock sales!

Jacqueline, you seem to be really angry with people like myself. I must point out that we didn't choose to be born, and it's very unhelpful to get input such as "that the only conversion recognized is an Orthodox one."

Orthodox conversions used to be the gold standard, but they are now being cancelled and challenged throughout the Jewish world, thanks to Israel's Haredi-dominated rabbinic courts repeatedly challenging and overturning other Orthodox rabbis' conversions, an attitude that has unfortunately spread to Orthodox groups throughout the world.

Also Orthodox conversions are really only useful for adult children and other descendants of intermarriage who want to live as Orthodox Jews. The majority of them who are Jewish-identified usually want to join the non-Orthodox denominations.

I would disagree that "intermarriage is destroying the Jewish people" and those of us, like myself and Rabbi Meija, who are doing interfaith family outreach to descendants of intermarriage are "culpable." I believe that reaching out to Jews and potential Jews is not a criminal activity, but a sacred one, intended to preserve the Jewish people.

When I have interviewed interfaith couples who opted to leave Judaism on why they did so, they had plenty to say about their poor treatment and bad experiences with hostile shuls, contemptuous rabbis, boring services, skyrocketing shul dues, and insular, ethnocentric attitudes among other Jews. They found Christianity (or Islam or Hinduism, etc.) warm, welcoming and universalist.

That is why I have started Inclusivist Judaism, because there is a historical tradition of warmth and welcome within Judaism itself that needs to be further publicized and developed.

Finally, you apparently think that children of intermarriage with Jewish mothers are treated as Jews by Jews with two Jewish parents. Unfortunately, that is often not true, as I can attest from personal experience. I have a Jewish Orthodox mother -- who fled her dysfunctional Orthodox family to marry my Episcopalian father -- but I was driven to this activism by many other Jews' blatant disrespect for me, which they openly stated was due to me having a Christian father. I soon learned that thousands of other children of intermarriage were in the same boat.

It is time for a dramatic change in how the Jewish community treats adult children and other descendants of intermarriage. We should be welcomed and embraced, and assisted in learning about Judaism if we wish to identify as Jews. Outreach efforts comparable to those set up for interfaith couples and Jews by Choice (converts) need to be created.

Sincerely,

Robin Margolis

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

I'm backing up Robin here! I agree that we disagree. 

We may be the two adult interfaith children who write most extensively about "half-Jewish" identity issues, but for many years we have been respectully disagreeing over the idea of raising children with both religions. Robin is very clearly against it, as she states, because the adults she knows who were raised this way seem to struggle.

I advocate accepting the "both" pathway as one of the many legitimate pathways for interfaith families: my contention is that the struggling adults who say they were "raised both" in earlier generations were usually raised with little or no serious religious education and no community support. Only in the last 15 years has it even been possible to raise children in a community that supports interfaith families in teaching children about both religions. My latest blog post http://onbeingboth.com/  for instance, describes how we celebrated Thanksgiving incorporating both (but clearly labelled and delineated) Christian and Jewish perspectives.

 As for Jesus, though I know I'm not going to convince some commenters here, part of the honest discussion around Jesus in interfaith family communities is dissecting the phrase "believing in Jesus."

Do you believe that he was a historical figure? Do you believe that he was an important rabbi in his time? Do you believe that the story of his life and the words attributed to him, fictional or not, create a powerful metaphor that changed the course of European and American history and may be worthy of study?

Many of us Jews are still very uncomfortable at the mention of Jesus, because we grew up in a time and place when Jews did not mention him. On the other hand, many progressive Jewish theologians and prominent rabbis would answer "yes" to most of the questions above. This does not make them Christians.

For the record, I do not believe that Jesus is my personal savior or the only son of God, nor do interfaith family communities teach children to believe that, which is why we are not "Messianic Jews" and why I still call myself a Jew.

Susan Katz Miller

Jacqueline,

I am a patrilineal Jew who has never converted, and I am simply not interested in conversion in order to be Jewish.  Here are two reasons:

1.  I have found an inclusivist group of Judaism that I fit into, and I am not interested in joining any other denomination.  I'm learning about the areas of Judaism that interest me and I'm quite happy with that.

2.  Before I found the right place for me, I had inquired about conversion.  After meeting with several rabbis, I found that this is a very complex process.  I was told in order to be Jewish, I had to want it badly enough to go through many classes, learn Hebrew, and follow rule after rule that most people who aren't from mixed descent do not have to follow.  Forcing people from mixed descent to convert is a reason way many adult descendants of inter-marriage are not affiliated with the current Jewish establishment.  We are not invited be engaged with the Jewish community--we are separated into conversion classes and not allowed to express any view other than what we are being taught.  This was not what was right for me.

Susan,

I have looked at your website.  While your method may be right for some inter-married couples, I'm not sure I agree that it's beneficial to the children.  I was raised in one religion (Christianity) and came to Judaism as an adult.  Because I was raised in one religion, I was able to separate it from any other belief system.  It didn't become merged and blended into Judaism.  They are two completely different religions and ideologies.  After looking at some of your services, it seems very confusing to have scriptures from Matthew and Luke incorporated with a Jewish service.  Because I was raised religiously Chrisian, I know that Matthew and Luke are not Jewish books.  If I'd grown up with your type of service, I would have to re-learn a lot of information in order to be specifically Jewish.  But that's just my opinion.  If the inter-faith groups are bringing inter-married couples and the adult descendants into Judaism, that's great.  I wish you the best in that effort.

Robin,

I also share the view that I do not have to be "grateful" about being welcomed into the Jewish people.  I was born into the Jewish people because my father is Jewish.  I'm grateful that he brought in Jewish books and music and that he told me my Jewish family's history.

In summary, it's not inter-marriage that will bring Judaism to an end.  Ethnically, the ultra-Orthodox are doing their part with extensively large families.  As for the religious and cultural side of Judaism, that's up to all of us who wish to keep the literature, music, and ethics alive and inspiring.

Dear Susan and DCshepherd:

I am very pleased to see how many other adult children of intermarriage are posting on this thread! It is important that many of our voices be heard.

For many years, my postings in various forums were often the only voice advocating for the opinions of half-Jewish people. I hope both of you, and the other adult children of intermarriage on this thread, will continue to post both on Jewcy and in other forums where questions about half-Jewish people are discussed.

Cordially,

Robin Margolis

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

If so, why would she be terrified that a bit of exposure of Jews to Christian beliefs, or vice-versa, would be a threat to the Jews? She states that people who believe in Jesus Christ shouldn’t be attending temples. Maybe we should also exclude people who believe in evolution. After all, the Torah clearly states that the Earth was created in 7 days, and we don’t want our precious, impressionable children exposed to contrary views.

--z

When people ask me if I'm jewish I don't really know what to say, because even Jews themselves have trouble making up their minds about what exactly makes someone Jewish. I guess I can say: I am ethnically half-jewish. My father is Jewish and coerced my Irish/Italian lapsed-Catholic mother to convert to Judaism prior to the marriage as a condition of their child being "accepted" as a grandchild by my father's very religious parents. My father overcompensated for marrying a so-called Shicksa by shoving Judaism down my throat growing up. He even forced me, under threat of being grounded for life, to have a Bat Mitzvah that I vehemently did not want -- and I have never forgiven him for that. I was also raised New Age (unofficially) by my mother, who has admitted that she converted because of external pressure from her in-laws and not genuine internal self-identification as a Jew. New Age beliefs are what we both connect with spiritually. So no, I am not Jewish, despite my mother's Mikva bath before I was born, and despite how stereotypically jewish-sounding my inherited patriarchal surname is. I rejected Judaism at a very young age, and as an adult I am deeply opposed to the conformity inherent in organized religion -- which includes ALL religions, not just Judaism.

My father had a heavy-handed, restrictive, isolating approach during my childhood to raising me as a Jew: uncommonly religious for our geographical area, yeshivas from preschool till 4th grade, Shabbat dinner and friday night temple, separate cutlery for milk & meat, and anything related to my mother's cultural heritage was banned from our house (which she accepted but not without resentment. She wished to retain the secular aspect of certain Christian holidays, but daddy put his foot down. This, of course, resulted in Christianity becoming the proverbial Forbidden Fruit for both me and her.) Denying me the permission to integrate both cultural halves -- what Jews euphemistically refer to as "being consistent" so that the child won't be "confused" -- was a particularly bad strategy because jewishness is, at heart, an ethnic identity even more than it is a religious one. There are a significant number of atheists and agnostics who consider themselves jews. Some people have never set foot inside a synagogue yet they consider themselves jewish simply because all their ancestors were. The religion is the icing and the race is the cake, and no matter how you slice it, my father married outside his race.

Half-jewish is a specific identity in itself for some people, particularly people who want nothing to do with Judaism as a religion. No matter how strictly religious your household is, nothing can change the ethnic background of the parent who converted. You can't convert into an ethnic group. It's much simpler for Christians, since Christianity is not an ethnic label, but if we're looking at this from a religious angle it begs the question: does being indoctrinated into -- um, "raised" -- a particular religion automatically make you a member of that community as an adult, for life? There is an issue of choice here. The set of parents you're born to is not a choice, and neither is the religious identity they choose to impose on you during your youth.

Pressuring and guilt-tripping your grown child to date and marry within a limited pool of options -- or insisting that your future son/daughter-in-law officially abandon his/her family's religion and completely give up his/her cultural traditions, under implied threat of familial shunning -- is manipulative and controlling. It's emotional blackmail. My father made it clear before I even started dating that he would be very disappointed if I married a non-jew or, as he put it, a Shaygitz (however that's spelled). It is both unfair and hypocritical to demand "race loyalty" from a child like me who is, for all intents and purposes, biracial.

I have been doing research for a paper about the psychological effects of ethno-religious intermarriage on children raised within one faith, and I must say I am very disturbed by a phrase I keep seeing repeated over and over again by concerned Jews in reference to raising half-jews: "instill a Jewish identity." (Google that phrase and you'll see what I mean.) The use of the word "instill" is very telling. I consulted a thesaurus for synonyms:

Instill; implant in, fix in, impress in, imprint in; hammer into, drum into, drive into, drill into.

In other words, dominate your child's life and restrict their choices; attempt to control and dictate your child's sense of self. "Instilling a Jewish identity" is a perfect example of invasive Authoritarian parenting. Isn't it more enlightened to respect a child's individuality, freedom of thought and self-expression? Shouldn't children be allowed to form their own identities? For one's sense of self to be defined by one's religion and/or ethnic background is a cop-out, a substitute for genuine personality development. When I hear the phrase Jewish Destiny I roll my eyes. The Jewish Destiny mentality has the intended effect of making people fail to see themselves as individuals with individual destinies, and I'm glad I resisted that kool-aid.

I know alot of people will hate me for saying these things, but this point of view is rarely expressed and needs to be considered. "Instilling a Jewish identity" into a half-jewish child can backfire. If my father had compromised and respected my mother's desire to retain some of her culture, and if he had backed off when he saw I was starting to rebel, the results might have been different.

This should be a warning to intermarried parents. A one-religion household is not guaranteed to produce the results you're going for. My experience was atypical but it does happen. And for heaven's sake, don't force your child to be Bar/Bat-Mitzvah'd if you're told point-blank by your child that he or she does not want one. Doing so will make certain that you will not have jewish grandchildren.

ps- I prefer that people call me by my hebrew name, and I do feel a connection to jewish culture, just not at the expense of the other half of my ancestry. This essay cannot be dismissed as the ravings of a so-called Self-Hating Jew. If that were the case, I would not be here.

Dear Avoid_Extremes:

I have continued to follow the interesting comments on this thread, and read yours with great attention. I was sorry to hear that you got one of the early "raising Jewish children" of intermarriage upbringings, in which the non-Jewish parent's identity was virtually expelled from the house.

Many half-Jewish people report bewilderment when their intermarried Jewish parent urges them not to intermarry, as in "are you serious?"

If you are interested in a non-coercive model of Judaism in which there would be plenty of room for your New Age beliefs, you may wish to visit a group I have started with some other Jews, the Inclusivist Judaism Coalition, at:

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Your dual heritages would be treated with courtesy and respect by us.

Cordially,

Robin

www.half-jewish.net

www.inclusivistjudaism.wordpress.com

Avoid_Extremes--thanks for your honesty and thoughtful analysis.  

But as thoughtful as your criticism of organized religion may be, it seems there was a lot more going on in your family than mere religious difference.  Frankly, your father was a piece of work, and was emotionally abusive to your mother.  The way you describe him "putting his foot down" is not how a husband treats his wife in a healthy marriage.  It also seems your mother must also have her issues if she put up with that kind of abuse.  

It's to your credit that you're able to share your experience online, even if you (understandably) choose to keep your name hidden.  It shows you've managed to some extent to grow beyond your dysfunctional upbringing.  That being said, I hope you realize that, although organized religion can be abusive and insane, sometimes religion is just a forum where crazy abusive people act out their neuroses. 

--Z

Robin,

Just to clarify I do not have anger towards the children of intermarriage.Most of them are amazing people who have struggled very much to identify with a religion and set of values and beliefs. What I am angry at is the fact that intermarriages are on the rise and are becoming more acceptable in the Jewish community(especially the reform community). My comments are on your site to remind people that the torah has a strong position on why not to intermarry. 

 The torah states that  (Deut. 7:3): "You shall not marry them (the gentiles), you shall not give your daughter to their son and you shall not take his daughter for your son."The reason for this prohibition is clearly spelled out in the following verse: "Because he will lead your son astray from Me and they will serve strange gods…" ("Strange gods" can also be interpreted to mean those ideals and ‘isms’ that do not conform to the dictates of the Torah).

Now although this may seem a bit harsh, it is G-ds law and if you don't believe it then what do you as a rabbinical student stand for? As a rabbinical student you're supposed to help others follow the torah and understand it. By failing to mention the religious reasons involved in why Judaism is against intermarriage you've  made it into an issue over race . I'm not a racist for believing that Jews should only marry Jews. I'm simply following what the torah says. It seems many of your followers are angry and disgruntled at the orthodox community for believing the same way as I do and think of them as racists.

You seem to think of the orthodox as a backwards and prejudiced group who focus their resources only on traditional Jews. However in my experiences with the orthodox community I have always found them to be warm and welcoming to all people and especially those from interfaith families. I think they just happen to be, honest about the realities of intermarriage unlike the reform movement. The orthodox are merely trying to follow the torah as strictly as possible. They are very helpful in the conversion process and strongly believe in helping the children of intermarriage to come back to Judaism through conversion. I think you have exhibited a very noticeable disdain for the orthodox commmunity in many of your comments. I'm sorry to hear that not all of your experiences with the orthodox have been positive but its unfair to judge a group of people based on the behavior of a few.  

 Many of the other commentators seem to think of the Orthodox as inclusive and hateful towards interfaith families. When in reality nothing could be further from the truth. What they believe in is raising children to be Jews. Why you view this as "Draconian" is very confusing to me. Is it draconian to have your children follow the traditions of a religion that has been around for thousands of years? The truth of the matter is that Judaism is an not an inclusive religion. We have very strict rules about conversion and intermarriage for a reason and that is to protect both our heritage and religion. Unlike Islam or Christianity, Judaism is not concerned with quantity of people we are concerned about the quality of people.

Some of the people on here even think combining faiths seems to be a good idea, one commentator even asked why not expose our jewish children to Jesus Christ? (Answer: Because we do not believe in him!) As a Jew in America I'm constantly exposed to christian beliefs and values why should I be exposed to them at synagogue as well? Why not spend the time talking about our own ancestors like Moses and Abraham? Or is that too boring for most interfaith families who you claim are bored and dissatisfied with  traditional Judaism (gosh why can't Judaism be more entertaining like Christianity or Islam? ).  

 But here is my biggest peeve with your articles, you want us to turn Judaism into something it is not. You want to disregard thousands of years of Jewish laws and traditions to suit your purposes. And I'm sorry to say that me and many other Jewish people disagree with this view point. You say that we should be trying to get more interfaith families to participate in Jewish life, even if this means "dumbing" down Judiasm for them to feel comfortable and I also disagree with that.

 But once again I'm not hateful towards the children of interfaith families. I have many friends and family members who are half Jewish and love them all without reserve. What I'm angry at are the rabbis and other people who are allowing these intermarriages to continue. By defending intermarriage they are contributing to the decline of Judaism.

If we keep diluting Judaism, is it still really Judaism?  But then what is authentic Judaism? It has evolved over time in response to changing factors. Some practices once deemed acceptable are now completely unacceptable. And some things like matrilineal descent came later on.

 I understand your point about not wanting Judaism to be lost to assimilation. I feel the same way. I can understand why you're opposed to intermarriage.

 What I am still struggling to understand is:

- How rabbis are somehow encouraging intermarriage. Most are against it. But Jews have and will marry out regardless of a rabbi's blessing, accepting their children is a way of trying to keep Jews within the fold. It's not the cause of intermarriage, it's the effect.

- What it is about Robin's cause you're so against. I cannot speak for her but IMHO she's not advocating intermarriage but the inclusion of half Jews. There's a big difference because she's actually trying to promote a sense of Jewish identity. Is it that you're worried that half Jews are going to have beliefs inconsistent with Judaism, like JC for example, because that I can understand. But are you against including Reform Jews (Jewish via their fathers) in Judaism, even if they identify only as Jewish?

 I'm a bit lost; are you against intermarriage? Or are you against including half Jews in Judaism? Or are you only in favour of excluding half Jews who practice other religions from Judaism? IMO there's a difference between all of the above, so I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.

Jake,

I am against intermarriage in general. I am not against including people who are half Jewish in Judaism. However if those half Jewish people intend on hanging on to their Christian and other non Jewish beliefs  then they should not consider themselves Jewish. For example, if you believe in Jesus Christ then you are not Jewish, simple right? I'm not talking about whether or not you believe that he existed as a historical figure or his contribution to the world, I'm referring to the belief in him as the savior.

You are correct when you say Judaism has evolved in response to changing factors over time. But it has always retained the unique qualities of a seperate culture/beliefs among the masses. When a Jew marries a gentile we lose that unique otherness and that family is soon lost to assimilation.

I also am in agreement that most rabbis are against intermarriage(thank g-d) but there are some within the reform and reconstructionist community who will perform intermarriage ceremonys. This is clearly against Jewish law, which is why I'm against it. Now if the couple intend on raising their children Jewish ( "draconian" style as Robin likes to think of it) then I'm fine with that. I think that Robin urging us to devote resources and do outreach to the half Jewish community is a good idea. There are many half Jews who are interested in learning more about Judaism.

**Also I have no idea what you are talking about when you say IMHO, IMO, etc. Make sure to write things out so we can all understand what you're saying.

Jacqueline,

I'm quoting a comment you made in your post on December 3 at 6pm:

"The orthodox are merely trying to follow the torah as strictly as possible. They are very helpful in the conversion process and strongly believe in helping the children of intermarriage to come back to Judaism through conversion."

Please understand that I am not against the Orthodox.  I admire the consistency that is shown by this denomination of Judaism.  However, I'm not sure you understand the conversion process and why many people from mixed descent will not convert. And why this type of forced-converson-in-order-to-belong mentality is really the root of assimilation among people from mixed descent. 

Let me address two points concerning conversion.  My ethnicity is the same as someone with a Jewish mother.  Half my DNA came from my father, who is Jewish.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Orthodox require a conversion from someone with a Jewish father but not for someone with a Jewish mother.  From a scientific standpoint, that makes no sense.  I haven't read anywhere in the Torah that defines the matrilineal descent law, so why is it so important that patrilineals convert but not matrilineals? 

Another reason I won't convert is the process is incredibly arduous.  I believe in G-d, but I'm not that religious.  I'm connected to Judaism through culture--literature, music, and art.  In keeping Jewish culture alive, some of the most precious aspects of Judaism are kept alive.  So people like me are incredibly valuable to the Jewish people.  

Limiting the way in which people from mixed descent are able to engage in Jewish life is assimilation.  In that respect, all major Jewish denominations are doing exactly that.  Because a conversion is required for the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and Renewel movements for someone with my background, I can't join a temple and be recognized as being Jewish.  Even the more progressive forms of Judaism require people from mixed descent to convert if we were raised in another religion--even though we've left that religion a long time ago.  If I decided to let everyone push me out of Judaism, they would force me to assimilate.  I'm not letting that happen.  It's not intermarriage that's causing this.  I'm not intermarried.   

Because I don't want to assimilate, I've joined another form of Judaism called Inclusivist Judaism.  But make no mistake about it--it is not "dumbed down."  It's simply different than your form of Jewish practice.  Please don't confuse "dumbed down" with being different. 

I can't say I'm against intermarriage because it is not my right to judge two people who are in love. 

However, I can understand how you feel about including people with, say Christian beliefs, in Judaism. But for me that's not just half Jews, it's also Jews for Jesus or Jews having converted to another religion. When you're already a minority, surrounded by the forces of assimilation, it's nice to have our Jewish institutions retain their distinctly Jewish characters.

And I agree with you about raising children as being only Jewish not necessarily being a draconian thing. It is a personal decision parents make. Now for some it may be draconian (like for poster who said her mother was coerced into converting) but for others, I don't think it's draconian at all. Some commentators above even said that Robin doesn't represent them so opinions obviously differ quite a bit.

 Thanks for clarifying your opinion Jacqueline.

By the way:

IMO - in my opinion

IMHO - in my humble opinion         

Robin,

I waited until after shabbat to post this but see you didn't bother to do the same.  So tell me as a rabbinical student what do you believe in? Obviously not shabbat  since I'm sure the laws of the sabbath are too "fundamentalist" or "draconian" for you to follow. And clearly not the torah, but I'll get back to that in a second.

So there seems to be a lot of confusion amongst your readers as to what Judiasm is. Let me clarify myself, Judiasm is a RELIGION. Yes  it is also considered by many to be a race, a people, a culture, etc. But above all else we are a religion. Now that we have that established that I can point out that in Judaism you can not be "half Jewish" in the sense that you still follow other religions and beliefs. 

 Most of the Jews in America grow up very assimilated and comfortable in secular society. They forget how special it is to be a Jew. As a Jew we were born to be different from the masses, a people chosen by g-d himself to be the light upon nations. The torah states that just before g–d gave the Ten Commandments he spoke to Moses and said, (Exodus 19:5,6) “If you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be my special treasure among the nations, even though all the world is Mine. You will be a holy nation to Me.”

However, since you think reading the torah seems to be too "fundamentalist"  then maybe I can work  with something simpler for you to understand. The ten commandments clearly state "You will have no other g-d before me". Meaning either you believe in Judaism and accept our g-d  and torah or you do not.

It seems that you do not have too much respect for the torah, even though your bookshelves apparently groan under the weight of all your holy books. You rarely mention torah but when you do, you talk about it as if it was a story or "narrative" that was written solely by man (with a smidgen of g-dliness to it). Clearly I must be mistaken here but last time I checked the torah is the word of g-d. You say that the traditional reading of the torah is fundamentalist and doesn't apply to you. If you believe this then why follow a religion that you think is based on stories, slavery, and fundamentalism?? 

Although you describe your readings of the torah as more "modern",  anyone can understand that the torah clearly states that intermarraige is wrong and a sin. How is this phrase ambiguous to you?

"You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son, for he will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others then the L–rd’s wrath will burn against you, and He will destroy you quickly.Deuteronomy 7:3-4

Nowadays its not very PC to tell people they can't marry whoever they want. So its easy for people like you to explain that what g-d really meant only applied to ancient times. Even though the torah does not state anything along the lines of it only applying to ancient tribes. By saying otherwise you are implying to people that intermarraige is acceptable  when it is not.

 The truth of the matter is that there are a lot of mysteries in the torah. Why aren't we allowed to eat pork or shellfish, mix meat and milk or  wear a mixture of linen/wool?  G-ds reasons are for these laws are a mystery, but primarily most Rabbis believe they serve as a tool to prevent us from assimilating and keep us a distinct and seperate religion among the masses.

 As far as intermarriage goes in the torah you are correct that many intermarriages did take place, however most of them that were successful involved conversion. The story of Ruth is an example of intermarriage.  Ruth was  not Jewish but converted to Judaism upon her marriage to a Jew. This story illustrates that some gentiles do have a Jewish soul, a neshamah. However, most gentiles do not have a Jewish soul. That does not mean that they are bad people, it just means that they are not Jewish. And thus the prohibition against intermarriage that is clearly spelled out in the torah still holds true.

You state that " it's not morally acceptable to tell people that they can't marry someone they are in love with because that person comes from another culture". The torah says nothing about it being morally unacceptable to tell people who to marry. In fact going back again to the ten commandments, they specifically say "honor thy father and mother",  meaning that your loyalty is to them and your people above all else.

Also you say that Judaism has followed two models; inclusivist and seperatist. The inclusivist movement in Judiasm has been very successful, so succesful in fact that it has even resulted in a new religion entirely called Christianity. Christianity began as a form of messianic Judaism. It wasn't until several hundred years after the death of Jesus Christ that a distinct religion emerged. The early Christians kept many of the Jewish values, beliefs, holy texts but as they looked for converts they realized they would need to be more inclusive in order to get more people into the fledgling movement.To make things easier for new converts many of the harsher or more difficult laws of Judaism were forgotten or ignored (ex. laws of kashrut).  An excellent source on the lives of the early Christians I highly recommend reading the book "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches; The riddles of culture."

Finally I would like to say that Inclusivist Judiasm is harmful because it will result in assimilation and the dilution of the Jewish religion. By allowing a looser and more liberal interpretation of Judaism you are making it into something it is not. Judaism was not meant to be inclusive. There are many laws and rules to follow and a lot of it is very hard to justify or understand. It takes many years of studying to even begin to crack the surface of our religion. It seems to me that you are  trying to bring interfaith families into the cultural aspect of Judaism and not the religion.

 Judaism is not merely a culture. After all I am Jewish but since my family is Sephardic and from South America I was never exposed to what most people think of as traditional Jewish culture growing up. Yet despite the lack of bagels or yiddish sayings I have always considered myself to be Jewish above all else. This is because despite our various origins as Jews we all share the same faith. This faith has been a beacon of light for millions of people across the world. It is a faith to be proud of and to continue until the moshiach comes b'h.  

It seems that many of the people commenting here about being half-Jewish are confused and angry at the Jewish establishment. But instead of being angry at the Jewish world they should be angry with their parents. Their parents were the ones who decided to raise their children as two religions and then expected us to welcome them with open arms. In the case of children of patrilineal descent  it becomes very complicated. Simply put, these children are not Jewish. One commenter even asked me to explain scientifically why this was the case. I don't have a scientific answer for him and I doubt anyone does although I do recommend speaking to a rabbi about it.

 I feel sympathy towards all the children who have been lost to intermarriage. Children need to be raised with a firm and confident belief in their religious identity (Note that I said religious identity, not cultural identity meaning that if you're half Jewish and half Jamaican you can grow dreads and like Raggae music  but religiously you must follow Jewish beliefs to be considered Jewish.)  How are the children of these interfaith couples supposed to pick a religion? Without a Jewish education or upbringing it is almost impossible for a child to make a rational decision as to what religion they would like to follow. Instead what emerges are children who are confused at their identity. These children find it hard to fit in the Jewish world because they have been raised with different values and beliefs. They take out their rage on the Jewish world for shutting them out, when in reality it was their parents who cut them off of their birthright.

In closing I would like to remind everyone that unlike Robin I am not a rabbinical student. I'm just an ordinary Jew who is tired of people making excuses for intermarriage and allowing it to occur. I'm not an expert on Judaism and neither is Robin. Therefore I would definitly recommend consulting a rabbi from the conservative or orthodox movement  in order to understand the concept of intermarriage from the Jewish viewpoint.

You must shun them utterly, you may not sign a treaty with them. You may not marry them. Do not give your daughter to a Gentile's son, and do not take his daughters for your son. For if you do they will remove your sons from worshiping Me, and they will worship other gods. The result will be that Hashem will be angry with you and he will destroy you quickly.... For you are a holy nation [i.e., exclusively] for Hashem. Hashem your G-d chose you from all the nations on the earth, to be His special people. Hashem desired and chose you not because you had greater numbers than all the other nations, for you are the smallest of all the nations. It was because Hashem loves you, and because He kept His promise to your forefathers, that Hashem took you, with a strong hand, and rescued you from slavery, from the clutches of Pharaoh the king of Egypt."
-- Deuteronomy 7:1-8

Elijah the prophet asked Jews who were beginning to slip into the worship of the idol, Baal, "How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the God of the Jews is God, follow Him! but if Baal is God, then follow him!" Elijah told the Jews, one or the other, not both! You cannot believe in two opposite, mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously. Judaism and Christianity believe in opposite, mutually exclusive ideas, and you cannot be a Jew and a believer that Jesus was the messiah at the same time.

--I Kings 18:21. 

You seriously think every word of the bible is G-d's literal truth? Every word?  Have you read the thing cover to cover?  It's absolutely loaded with material that would make Attila the Hun flinch.  (check out 1 Samuel 18: 24-28, for example).  

And you're not a racist, but you believe that Jews (and only Jews) are G-d's "special people"? 

--Z

Zbird-

In response to your earlier post entitled "Does Jacqueline think that highly of Judaism" the answer is a resounding YES! I am super proud of my religion, culture, traditions and values. And I firmly believe that We as Jews are the chosen people. I'm quite tired of people like you making that out to be a racist notion. When in reality it is the basis for our religion.

I also think your cynicism is a little bit pathetic. Why are you a site like Jewcy if you don't think anything of Judaism? Are you here to make fun of our beliefs, put us down because we believe that torah is the word of g-d? If so you might want to check out a neo-nazi or KKK website since it seems you will fit in just fine.

Jacqueline, you could have made a reasonable argument for the case against intermarriage or outreach to children of intermarriage. Instead, you have resorted to juvenile tactics and insults which do little to further your cause. The arguments you have made are a mass of contradictions, on one hand saying outreach should be done to half-Jews and you welcome them as Jews, then stating they are not Jews. The one thing I do agree with you on is that is "unfair to judge a group of people based on the behavior of a few"- that's for sure! I would hate for anyone to judge Orthodoxy based on the things you have been saying. 

Jacqueline,

I'm an adult descendant of inter-marriage, and I find it very hard to think of you as someone who would be friendly towards people like myself.  Your comment that "instead of being angry at the Jewish world, they should be angry at their parents" shows a very immature and limited perspective. 

My Jewish father brought a Jew into the world.  I may not be what you consider Jewish.  But I believe there are many ways of being Jewish that seem to be beyond your very limited understanding of social and ethical values.  If you think people from mixed descent should harbor anger at our parents, your family values are not something I would want to emulate.  If you're speaking on behalf of the Orthodox, you might want to consider consulting a rabbi.

I just received a message from Jacqueline telling me that she is "not Orthodox at all", in case anyone was curious.

 And further to your message, no one, including myself, is attacking you for expressing your opinion. It is the way in which you express your opinion i.e. using comparisons to neo-Nazis and the KKK which are cause for concern. I take issue with how you diminish the importance of such hate groups by telling others they would fit in with them for expressing opions that disagree with yours.