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The Washington Post Perpetuates a Destructive Myth
By Khatchig Mouradian / November 2, 2007
The Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106) has attracted enormous media attention since it was passed by the House International Affairs Committee on October 10. However, the content of many of the articles, columns and stories make one thing clear: Writers across the United States were ill-prepared to tackle the issue of the Armenian genocide, simply because they knew very little about it.
One case in point is Richard Cohen's article in the Washington Post, titled "Turkey's War on the Truth" (Oct. 16, 2007). Cohen makes arguments based on false premises. After conceding–with condescension–that what happened to the Armenians in 1915 was "plenty bad," he concludes that it falls short of genocide "because not all Armenians…were…affected." Clearly, if we follow his train of thought, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur and several other cases should not be labeled as "genocide."
Cohen's standards are clearly different from those of the UN Convention defining genocide, but Cohen doesn't just introduce his own novel definition of genocide, he also creates his own facts. He suggests that jurist Raphael Lemkin, the author of the Genocide Convention, coined the term "genocide" based solely on "what the Nazis were doing to the Jews." This is blatantly wrong. Although this factual error was pointed out by many–including myself–to the editors of the Washington Post, no correction was issued and, to this day, no letter to the editor on this issue has appeared in the paper.
To set the record straight, the horrors of the Armenian genocide–and not only the Holocaust–played a central role in Lemkin's lifelong pursuit to find a name for the ultimate crime against humanity–the cleansing of a group–and to incorporate into international law the prevention of this crime and the punishment of its perpetrators.
The destruction of the Armenians came to Lemkin's attention when, in 1920, Soghomon Tehlirian–an Armenian whose entire family was killed during the genocide–assassinated Talaat Pasha, the mastermind behind the Armenian genocide, in Berlin. Lemkin read about Tehlirian's trial and, during a discussion with his professor at the University of Lvov, asked, "It is a crime for Tehlirian to kill a man, but it is not a crime for his oppressor to kill more than a million men?" His professor argued that states are sovereign and they can do what they want to their citizens. "Consider the case of a farmer who owns a flock of chickens. He kills them and this is his business. If you interfere, you are trespassing," his professor argued. Lemkin was proud of Tehlirian for defending "the moral order of mankind," but wanted international law–and not individuals–to punish the perpetrators.
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Axis of Evil Alliance
Iran, Armenia review expansion of defense cooperation
Tehran, Nov 8, IRNA
Minister of Defense and Armed Forces Logistics Brigadier General Mostafa Mohammad-Najjar conferred on Thursday in Yerevan with Armenian President Robert Kocharian on expansion of cooperation between the two countries.
According to Public Relations Department of Iran's Defense Ministry, at the meeting, the Armenian president welcomed the recent visit of the Iranian defense minister and expressed the hope that it would bear fruitful results for both sides.
Supporting the agreement signed by the two countries' defense ministries, he called for implementation of the agreements endorsed by the two sides' presidents in Iran-Armenia joint statement.
The Iranian defense minister, for his part, called his meetings with Armenian military officials as fruitful and promising.
Iran believes in good neighborliness and establishment of mutual understanding with countries of the region and is to do its utmost to consolidate peace in the Caucuses region, Persian Gulf and other parts, Najjar said.
It is vital to defuse crisis and security threats in order to prevent unilateralism which would disrupt the world order, he said adding that comprehensive and all-out tranquillity and security would be established through collective cooperation and understanding among countries of the region.
Iran-Armenia military cooperation "not" aimed at third countries
06.11.2007 18:55 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Iran-Armenia military cooperation is not aimed at third countries, Iranian Defense Minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar before departing for Yerevan.
“Iran’s policy implies all-round cooperation with states of the region and the visit to Armenia will be held in the framework of this policy,” he said pointing at political, economic and cultural cooperation with Armenia.
“I am hopeful that my trip will convey a new impulse to the relationship between the two states, specifically in the defense sector. Iran attaches great importance to peace, stability and security in the region and we comprehend the necessity of such visits for strengthening relations with all states of the region,” he said, RIA Novosti reports.
The Iranian delegation will meet with Armenian President Robert Kocharian, Prime Minister Serge Sargsyan and Defense Minister Mikael Harutyunyan. On Wednesday, they will attend the Matenadaran, Blue Mosque and the Armavir brigade of the RA Defense Ministry. On Thursday, they will look in the Military Institute after Vazgen Sargsyan and visit Holy Echmiadzin.
What a B.S. last post. In 1905-1908 and in 1918 Armenians were massacring Azerbaijanis in Caucasus. My grandparents fled the massacre from Nakhchivan to Baku when their village was completely destroyed by Armenian forces. Where do you guys come up with that kind of crap and historical forgery?
Ok people, yets get this straight. Deportations didn't just take place in Eastern Anatolia but took place in Syria, Western Anatolia (including Izmir and Istanbul) and Edirne (European part of Turkey). The 3 cities used by genocide deniers are Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo. The claim that deportations from Istanbul never happened are false because they actually did. My family and thousands of others were deported from there to Syria. In Aleppo, Syria, the deportations weren't in effect because the governor wasn't compliant with the Young Turks and was later replaced and deportations from Aleppo to Der Zor began. In Izmir, deportations began in November of 1916 but were stopped by German officer Limon von sanders. Massacres and deportations didn't just apply to Anatolia but extended to Northern Iran and Azerbaijan. The reasons for the deportations were to homogenize Anatolia and cleanse the empire of Armenians to make way for Turan, the Turkic homeland. Anyone who uses the Van "rebellion" argument as a reason for deportations is wrong since the Young Turks talked about the deportations in March, a month before the purges and deportations. Why would Armenians align themselves with Russia anyways, Armenian nationalists and politicians were persecuted in Russia because they were socialists and nationalists, threatening the Czars power. These were naive revolutionaries and were the minority of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Most Armenians served their country loyally , not "back stabbing" it. The argument of Armenian deserters is useless since not just Armenians but Arabs, Greeks, Kurds and Assyrians were persecuted and deserted as well and a number of Turks fed up with the corrupt and disorganized army deserted as well.
Here is the fallout from the non-recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the US government.
1) Turkish Blackmail: Turkey is trying to force Armenia to dismiss the claim of genocide of Armenians by the Turks. [What would the Jews do and how would they feel and react if Germany did this to Israel????? - anybody dare to comment??]
"IF ARMENIA PASSES BY ITS CLAIMS, RELATIONS WILL NOT BE NORMALIZED: TURKISH PRESIDENT Trend 07.11.07 12:47
Azerbaijan, Baku / corr Trend I.Alizade / If Armenia passes upon its
claims in connection with the so-called 'Armenian genocide' and try
to put this question to the consideration of parliaments of other
countries, The Turkish-Armenian relations will not be normalized,
Turkish President Abdullah Gul, currently visiting Azerbaijan, said
in Baku on 9 November while addressing the Milli Majlis [Azerbaijan
Parliament]."
2) Freedom of speach and a foundation of true democracy is fully trampled.:
"ARAT DINK AND SEROPYAN SENTENCEDAGOS EDITOR-IN-CHIEF ARAT DINK AND LICENCE HOLDER SERKIS SEROPYAN HAVE BEEN GIVEN A DEFERRED ONE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE EACH UNDER ARTICLE 301.
Erol Onderoglu
Bıa news centre
07 Kasım 200
Ä°stanbul
The Sisli 2nd Penal Court has sentenced Agos editor-in-chief Arat
Dink, son of murdered journalist Hrant Dink, and licence holder Serkis
Seropyan to one year imprisonment each under Article 301. The sentences
were deferred.
Court took "history" lessons
In its twenty-page decree the court referred to the events of 1915,
saying, "If what the defendants had accused the Turks of doing was
a historical truth, then their actions would have been legal"; thus,
the court found it necessary to study history books itself and create
its own opinion of what happened in the past.
Citing controversial Yusuf Halacoglu's book "From Exile to Genocide
2007", the court referred to historical contributions Armenians had
made to Ottoman society and the fact that "there was an increase in
education and teaching possibilities for Armenians".
"Transferral"
Stating that the Armenians had been preparing for an armed uprising
against the Ottomans, and giving examples of armed attacks from 1895
to 1915, the court then said that the Armenians were transferred to
Syria and Mosul in Northern Iraq.
The court further asked, "When, during World War I, the allies attacked
German cities with air attacks, does that count as a genocide? And
nuclear experiments held under oceans and …[unreadable] resulting
earthquakes, mass deaths, are they counted as scientific genocides?"
"Limitation of freedom of expression justified"
The court stated that the constitution and the European Court of Human
Rights (ECHR) allowed for a limitation of the freedom of expression
in order to "protect national security, territorial unity or public
safety, guarantee the law and prevent crimes":
"There are ECHR precendents which have deemed French legislation
on freedom of expression regarding the extermination of Jews
inappropriate; and the Jews in Europe never armed themselves against
their own state, never united with the armies of other states, never
massacred people in villages in the mountains and deep valleys,
in province and district towns."
The court thus reached the conclusion that the accusation of genocide
was unfair and "aimed at destroying the Turkish public order".
Great Lawyers' Union filed complaint
The court case had been opened following a complaint by Recep Akkus
of the nationalist Great Lawyers' Union about an interview which
Hrant Dink had done with the Reuters News Agency.
In the interview, Hrant Dink had said, "We see that with these events
a people who have lived on this soil for 4,000 years are not there
anymore." A further article called "A Vote against 301", which had been
written about Hrant Dink's deferred six-month sentence for a series
of articles on "Armenian identity" and the protest of the Reporters
Without Borders (RSF) against this sentence, was also punished. After
Hrant Dink's murder, the charges against him were dropped, but his
son Arat Dink and licence holder Seropyan were still on trial.
No other newspaper on trial…
Other newspapers had also quoted Hrant Dink's statements, such as
the Yeni Cag newspaper (six days before Agos) in an article entitled
"Dink Has Not Been Brought to Senses after Appeals Court Decision",
the Cumhuriyet newspaper (two days before Agos) in an article entitled
"New Investigation into Dink", and the Tercuman newspaper in an
article with a similar title.
Family is still threatened
Meanwhile, many news sites have reported that Arat Dink is preparing
to leave Turkey for Belgium with his wife and two children. It is said
that he is leaving his post at Agos and, reacting to the many threats
he and his family are receiving, moving abroad. The Dink family has
said that this is a temporary measure. (EO/AG)"
Maybe the Turks can "Transfer" their Kurdish population to the deserts of Syria also. There is plenty of room there for them to sprawl out and enjoy the ammenities.
Don't worry about that Genocide Denier (Michael van der Galien). He doesn't like discussing in forums where he can't censor the truth. As you can see, he got his ass handed to him here. Even in his own racist blog he typically gets his ass handed to him, but there he can simply delete posts that he can't answer and he uses that technique liberally; I can assure you of that from firsthand experience.
Anon 3:15, I was being sarcast . . . never mind. Yes, I do have proof in fact that David Copperfield (also Jewish) is a direct descendant of Armin Wegner. So you see, the Jewish magic is imbedded in their genes and they can use it to doctor photographs. They did the same with 9/11 and the world trade center. In fact, the world trade center is still there, but they use Jewish magic to make it seem like its not there. The signs are all there dude. The World "Trade" Center; Jews are known to be good at "Trading". You see, the signs are all there bro if you look close enough! And that's why you can't trust the photos of the Armenian Genocide! Just ask any Genocide Denier, they'll school you up on those photos and any other Jewish conspiracy you can imagine.
You can't use those photos, because Wegner was a Jew who used Jewish magic to doctor those photos???
do you have any proof phantom or this "Jewish magic" businees is the best you can comeup with. you are absolutely pathetic phantom. PATHETIC.
Defenseless Armenian men women children where murdered and they were not "ALLOWED" to stay anywere in "ANATOLIA" they and it WAS GENOCIDE. You cannot whitewash your turks crimes no matter how hard or how long you coninue your LIES. yuo will never join the civilized world before you repent.
Elie Wiesel: what happened to Armenians during WWI was Genocide
30.10.2007 16:18 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ "I have been fighting for the right of the Armenian people to remember for years and years. How could I, who has fought all my life for Jewish remembrance, tell the Armenians they have no right to remember? But I understand the Bush administration’s view. Fortunately, as a private citizen I don’t have to worry about Turkey’s response. But I do feel that had there been the word ‘genocide’ in those days, what happened to the Armenians would have been called Genocide. Everyone agrees there was mass murder, but the word came later. I believe the Armenians are the victims and, as a Jew, I should be on their side," said Elie Wiesel, Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor.
"No one is asking for the Turks to take responsibility. All the Armenians want is the right to remember. Seven generations separate us from the events that happened in World War I and nobody in his right mind would say that today’s Turks are responsible for what happened. The Armenians don’t want reparations; they don’t even want an apology. They want the right to remember. I have spoken with Turkish leaders at the highest level and their attitude about this issue is totally irrational except for one thing, which I do understand. They don’t want to be compared to Hitler. But of course, nobody does," he said in an interview with The Philadelphia Jewish Voice.
very informative
Ali, as far as I know, requests to support the recognition of the Armenian Genocide Resolutionhave been sent to all American organizations. I know many have come our in support of the resolution (see a partial list below). However, I do not think there has been a systematic and coordinated effort to get organizations of any community to recognize the genocide. Otherwise, I am sure many more organizations and groups would do the right thing and call the crime by its name.
The reason activists are demanding a clear recognition from the ADL is different. The ADL has, according to many national and international reports, lobbied against the Armenian genocide resolution. Even today, it refuses to clearly aknowledge the genocide and openly says that it is "counterproductive" to recognize it in Congress. This is why the ADL is asked to go on record recognizing what happened in 1915.
Here is the list of supporters of the resolution (there are a few Arab-American groups):
American Federation of Jews from Central Europe (New York, NY)
American Hellenic Council of CA (Los Angeles, CA)
American Hellenic Institute (Washington, DC)
American Hungarian Federation (Washington, DC)
American Jewish World Service (New York, NY)
American Latvian Association in the U.S. (Rockville, MD)
American Values (Washington, DC)
Americans for Peace Now (Washington, DC)
Arab American Institute (Washington, DC)
Belarusan-American Association (Jamaica, NY)
Bulgarian Institute for Research and Analysis (Bethesda, MD)
Center for Holocaust and Genocide, University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, MN)
Center for Russian Jewry with Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry (New York, NY)
Center for World Indigenous Studies (Olympia, WA)
Christian Solidarity International (Washington, DC)
Congress of Romanian Americans (McLean, VA)
Council for the Development of French in Louisiana (Lafayette, LA)
Estonian American National Council (Rockville, MD)
Genocide Intervention Network (Washington, DC)
Global Rights (Washington, DC)
Grace Community Church (Sun Valley, CA)
Hmong National Development, Inc. (Washington, DC)
Hungarian American Coalition (Washington, DC)
Institute on Religion and Public Policy (Washington, DC)
International Association of Genocide Scholars (New York, NY)
Jewish Social Policy Action Network (Philadelphia, PA)
Jewish War Veterans of the USA (Washington, DC)
Jewish World Watch (Encino, CA)
Joint Baltic American National Committee (Rockville, MD)
Leadership Council for Human Rights (Washington, DC)
Lithuanian American Community (Philadelphia, PA)
Lithuanian American Council (Rockville, MD)
National Ethnic Coalition of Organizations (New York, NY)
National Council of Churches USA (New York, NY)
National Federation of American Hungarians (Washington, DC)
National Federation of Filipino American Associations (Washington, DC)
National Lawyer's Guild (New York, NY)
Polish American Congress (Chicago, IL)
Progressive Jewish Alliance (Los Angeles, CA)
Reconstructionist Rabbinical College (Wyncote, PA)
Slovak League of America (Passaic, New Jersey)
The Georgian Association in the USA (Washington, DC)
The Workmen's Circle/Arbeter Ring (New York, NY)
U.S. Baltic Foundation (Washington, DC)
Ukrainian Congress Committee of America (New York, NY)
Ukrainian National Association (Parsippany, NJ)
Ukrainian National Museum of Chicago (Chicago, IL)
Union for Reform Judaism (Washington, DC)
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations (Washington, DC)
United Hellenic American Congress (Chicago, IL)
Washington Chapter Czechoslovak National Council of America (Washington, DC)
Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (Philadelphia, PA)
Zionist Organization of America (New York, NY)
You can't use those photos, because Wegner was a Jew who used Jewish magic to doctor those photos.
Phantom, You forgot about the photographs that show Turkish soldiers standing proudly besides the decapitated heads of their Armenian victims like hunters would stand with their trophies. Oh, and how about the photographs of the Armenian women and children being driven out of their historic homeland at gunpoint and forced to march for months with little food and water? Researchers should just discount the photos of the skeletal Armenian women with near-dead babies clinging to them. Someone may think these photos were actually taken by a biased "Armenian Source!" But sadly, the Armenian victims of the Turks were not running around snapping photos of their dead mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. These photos were taken by what I guess our poster would call "neutral" sources including Armin Wegner the German soldier who was in Turkey as an ally. The Germans both taught the Turks some of their deadly tricks and also learned a great deal about how to destroy a race while in Turkey in 1915. Armin Wegner was under orders to ignore and destroy evidence of what he witnessed happening to the Armenians. But, he could not. Wegner was eventually arrested, but not before he managed to smuggle out of Turkey photos that provide direct evidence of Turkey's grand plan to rid their lands of their Armenian subjects at any cost. Try googling Armin Wegner and see for yourself.
And whatever you do, don't read the source material from http://www.armenocide.de. It's all just "Armenian propoganda" even though the material was all written by WWI era German military officials and diplomats.
Also, don't read Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, since he was a known Armenian sympathizer.
Also, don't read what American Consul Leslie Davis had to say about this chapter of our world history, since he was just a lunatic anways:
“Any doubt that may have been expressed in previous reports as to the Government’s intentions in sending away the Armenians have been removed and any hope that may have been expressed as to the possibility of some of them surviving have been destroyed. It has been no secret that the plan was to destroy the Armenian race as a race…”
Ignore the hundreds of U.S., German, French, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Austrian, Dutch, and Swiss missionaries, since they were all Christian and cannot be trusted.
Definitely ignore the dozens of Turkish military officials since they were coerced into confessions.
Don't even bother with the Arabs who managed to document their experience with the Armenians, since they are known liars.
As for the contemporary historians, immediately eliminate the dozens of Jewish historians who have studied this topic and say it was a Genocide, since Jews hate Muslims and cannot be trusted.
The International Associate of Genocide Scholars – forget these people since they have a vested interest in calling everything a genocide and since many of them are Jewish anyways (see above).
And whatever you do, definitely don't listen to the Turkish historians who say it was a Genocide, because they are known terrorists or they are secretly Kurdish or Armenian or Jewish, especially the ones who have won Nobel prizes.
TO Anonymous 11/5/07: Unlike you guys, I don't limit myself to so-called "Armenian sources." Rather, I use the research skills that I have acquired through almost 20 years of schooling, a judicial clerkship and more than a decade of working for large international law firms to conduct independent research. Unfortunately, most Turkish sources are so biased that it makes it impossible to use them. However, there are plenty of independent sources to rely upon. Why don't you try it??
ASALA is about as relevant to whether or not the Armenian Genocide occured as the Nazi Hunters are to whether or not the Holocaust occured. I'm not saying that the victims of ASALA and the victims of the Nazi Hunters should be equated. I'm simply saying that neither is relevant to the truth of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust respectively. This is just the typical denialist diversion. It usually works quite well at the Turkish blog sites where the audience is ready to grasp at anything that diverts attention away from the happenings of the Ottoman Empire between 1915-1918.
As to your other lie, there are fewer Armenian academic sources concluding that it was a Genocide than there are non-Armenian sources who make that conclusion. It's not Armenians versus Turks. It's everyone with a brain (including Turks like Taner Akcam and Orhan Pamuk) versus Turkish Denialists.
To "Anonymous" with subject line "Emycan"
You are attacking others regarding their usage of name & yet you post as "Anonymous", go figure..
You all also seem to have an amnesia about the Armenian terror organization named ASALA who murdered, injured and threatened numerous Turkish diplomats, civilians and bombed Turkish establishments for years. Prof Shaw's house was one of them in 1977, because he happened to say genocide did not happen. Many Turks were threatened especially in the past when ASALA was in action, and even today are being threatened by Armenians.
Just as you depend on only Armenian sources, it's natural Turks rely on Turkish sources. Obviously Armenian sites will not carry information which is against them. If you are so interested in finding the news articles for Prof Shaw's house bombing, go to a library & search the news-papers from 1977 yourself, because if a Turk puts it here you would still accuse them of fabricating it!!
or should I say Lale Olcay or Emy…I have seen your post above (identical) on at least 2 other websites under different names. Are you "cutting and pasting" your own unsupported and illogical thoughts onto as many different websites as you can in order to hasten the spread of revisionist history or did you copy someone else's idiocy?
Let me respond to your post:
1. On May 19, 1985, 69 Turkish nationals and supporters signed on to an open letter to the US Congress in opposition to HJ Res. 192, a nonbinding symbolic resolution about the Armenian Genocide. This letter was published in the Washington Post. I have found no reference to any Armenians "threatening" the Turkish signatories of this letter. Why don't you provide a non-Turkish source in English so those of us in America can read it. By the way, isn't your comment a little like the pot calling the kettle black when the Turkish government showed its expertise in "threatening" someone for a discussion of the truth. Turkey actually threatened to put US troops at risk if the US passed the current version of the Armenian Genocide Resolution. Turkey has been threatening anyone and everyone they can who dares speak the truth on this issue. Take a look at your own blackmailing governement before you made unsubstantiated allegations against the Amrican Armenians.
Oh and incidentally, are you actually defending Turkey's repression of free speech through section 301? It sure looks that way.
2. Turkish professor Stanford Shaw died peacefully on May 17, 2007 of pancreatic cancer. Do you have any non-Turkish, English sources for your allegation that his home was bombed in 1977 by Armenians? Since this happened in LA you should be able to come up with something. I found no record of a trial or conviction of anyone for this alleged crime.
3. In the Emergence of Modern Turkey, Bernard Lewis, in 1961, mentioned the Armenian Genocide referring to it as a "terrible holocaust." By 1985, he was on Turkey's payroll and he was one of the 69 signatories ot hte letter to Congress you mentioned above. Mr. Lewis was sued by a group of French-Armenians (descendents of Armenian Genocide survivors) for his defamatory comments in an interview with Le Monde for spreading revisionist history. And, wouldn't you know that the Court found in favor of the French Armenians and Mr. Lewis found found at fault and symbollically fined one franc.
A citizen's right to sue for defamation is very different from a Government's plan to criminally prosecute its citizens for speaking freely, Lale, Emycon, or whatever your name is.
Finally, with respect to Armenian Prime Minister Hovannes Katchaznouni's book, I must ask you to read it before you go around using it to support your lies. Perhaps you need me to quote you a passage from the book which you claim places responsibility for the deaths of over 1.5 million Armenians in the hands of the Armenians! True, he was dissapointed with his party, but he never ever says that the massacres of the Armenians did not happen at the hands of Turks. Mr. Katchaznouni states, "The deportantions and mass exiles and massacres which took place during the summer and autunm of 1915 were mortal blows to the Armenian Cause. Half of historical Armenia- "the same half where the foundations of our independence would be laid according to the traditions of European diplomacy" that half was denuded of Armenians. The Armenian provinces of Turkey were without Armenians. The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it to this day. It was the most decisive method of extirpating the Armenian Question from Turkey." (at p. 32.)
Do you want me to go on, Emycan? Stop polluting the internet with you lies.
Responce to Turkey and Free Speech dated 11/03/2007 The Armenians accentuate that Turkey threatens and prosecutes all the Turkish intellectuals who support the thesis of Armenian genocide, because of the restrictions of the article 301 on freedom of speech. Additionally they tell that they can not discuss these events with Turkish historians, in a joint comission depending on Ottoman Archieves, since these historians are also under the threat of the article 301.
I would like to ask the following questions to the Armenians, to display their own approach to freedom of speech:
1) Why did the Armenians threaten 69 historians from the United States of America and Canada who published a declaration in American newspapers in 1985, telling that the events which took place around 1915 did not have any relationship with 'genocide'? (Elekda? ?, 2005)
2) Why did they commit sabotage upon the house of Stanford J Show, one of the historians who told that Armenian genocide did not occur, in 1977? (Hürriyet, 21 Haziran 2007
3) Why did they sue the famous historian Bernard Lewis in France, in 1993 just because he wrote in an essay published in Le Monde that 'the 1915 events were not ‘genocide' (Lewy G, 2005)?
4) Why did Armenia forbid the book of Ovanes Kachaznuni (the first prime minister of Armenia) entitled ‘There is Nothing that Dashnak Party Can Do’ which was the report he presented to Dashnak Party’s Conference in 1923. Here he admitted that the Dashnaks had great responsibility for the tragedies which were lived, because they were captured by their dreams and were unable to see the realities. This book was not only forbidden in Armenia but it was taken away from many of the western libraries by the Armenians also (Ovanes Kaçaznuni Ta?nak Partisi’nin Yapaca?? Bir ?ey Yok. Kaynak Yay?nlar?, 2006, ?stanbul). It seems that actually the Armenians have an article (it must be article of denial) which renders prosecutions, threats and sabotages legal for historians who do not tell the history just as they wanted to have been.
Additionally, were all these American, Canadian, French historians also under the threat of Turkish 301 which is valid for only Turkish citizens? And was Ovannes Kachaznuni also under the threat of Turkish article 301 which was not present then?
"Anonymous", why don't you learn from Taner Akcam, re-educate yourself on the history of your own country, and come clean, like ordinary Germans did vis a vis the Holocaust?
Otherwise you will be locked into your own mythical understanding of a glorious past which does not exist. Repentance is the only way towards emancipation.
Response to ‘Response to Let’s stick to the facts’ dated 11/02/2007 In your comment, you had justified the prosecution against the historian Bernard Lewis in France, in 1993 just because he wrote in an essay published in Le Monde that 'the 1915 events were not ‘genocide', claiming that he had not reviewed the history completely and fulfil his duty properly. I want to ask you the following questions: Sixty nine historians from the United States of America and Canada published a declaration in American newspapers in 1985, telling that the events which took place around 1915 did not have any relationship with 'genocide'. Were all these 69 historians also incapacitated like Bernard Lewis and did they all also fail to fulfil their duty properly? Ovannes Kachaznuni (the first prime minister of Armenia) reported in his book entitled ‘There is Nothing that Dashnak Party Can Do’ which was the report he presented to Dashnak Party’s Conference in 1923 , in Romania that the Dashnaks had great responsibility for the tragedies which were lived, because they were captured by their dreams and were unable to see the realities and what the Turks did was right. Was Ovannes Kachaznuni who did not confirm the Armenians’ present views also incapacitated and did he also fail to fulfil his duty properly like Bernard Lewis and the aforementrioned 69 American and Canadian historians? Is it a coincidence that the book of Ovannes Kachaznuni was forbidden in Armenia? And are they also coincidences that the Armenians threatened all of the 69 aforementioned American and Canadian historians and committed sabotage upon the home of Stanford J Show, one of the historians who told that Armenian genocide did not occur, in 1977? Therefore, it is not hard to conclude that, whoever talks about the 1915 and Armenian-Turkish conflict, in the manner the Armenians do not approve is incapacitated, deficient in historical information and deserves punishment, according to the Armenians. The Armenians like historians who rewrite the history just as they wanted to have been; that is they like historians who write history on their order, instructions and dictations.
Genocide is the highest crime in human history. Under the 1948 UN Convention, the authority to prosecute and proclaim genocide is reserved for the International Court of Justice and the competent domestic courts of party States—not a legislative body. Holocaust was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process, not by the parliaments. If the Armenians wanted to be considered as victims of genocide, why did they not bring their genocide allegation before the International Court of Justice? The answer is simple: Because they know that their thesis is not supported by historical facts and the documents they have presented to public consists of forgeries. Instead they lobby and urge parliamentary assemblies to recognize the genocide.Therefore, it is not surprising that Armenians persistently refused the following Turkish attempts to discuss these events together with historians from both sides (using the excuse that all the Turkish historians are under the threat of article 301, then everything they propose is biased and wrong): *In 2004, the Viennese- Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians refused to send their documents which they promised, to the Turkish historians and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians. *Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on 13th April 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.*At last, Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007. *Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the recent invitation of the chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halacoglu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora? *Why are the Armenian archives still closed? *The archives of Dashnak Party is present in Zorian Armenian Institute in Boston. Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives and they even promised financial support. Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? Have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court? And have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And what else should Turkey do, to FACE WITH HER HISTORY? Who is afraid of facing with her history? Turkey or Armenia and the countries who support them?
You know you're desperate when you start quoting a racist disbarred judge who never wrote a single article on a historical event let alone a book until he decided to write his racist rant against the Armenian people.
Here are some gems from his one and only book:
"number one export of Armenia is terrorism,"
"they [the Armenians] live in the dark ages,"
"research shows that there is clearly an Armenian Mastermind Plan that generates Armenian hate around the world.
"The word paranoid defines someone's action as "characterized by extreme suspiciousness, grandiose delusions, or delusions of persecution." The Armenians have all these traits and more! In addition to being paranoid they are also very selfish and they are only concerned with their own welfare and/or interests and have little or no concern for the welfare of others. This character flaw is present in their self-centered attitude"
As you can see, the Turkish Denialists favorite contemporary reference isn't what one would call an example of academic and scientific objectivity.
Please stop fabricating stories about Taner Akcam. To call him a terrorist is ludicrous. I've met him; I've spoken with him…he is the farthest thing from a terrorist that I have ever seen. He is a mild-mannered, meek member of the intelligensia. What is it with you Turks? Your Government criminally prohibits free speech and you grow up thinking its ok to brand anyone who disagrees with your "interpretation" of history as a "terrorist?" Have you devoted a significant portion of your professional life to studying history? Have you sat down and actually read the documents he quotes? You know, its sad that you have grown up being denied the truth. Turks call Armenian scholars who study the Genocide biased liars. Yet, when one of your own (Professor Akcam, Orham Pamuk, etc.) questions your Governement's lies, they become "terrorists?" Rather than polluting the internet with your revisionist history and lies, spend some time doing some research.
Funny how 18,000 Armenian Legion in German Army grows to be 100,000. Funny how there is no mention of Azeri and other ethnicities in the German Foregn Legion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenische_Legion
The goal of the Armenian Legion was to settle scores with the communists, it had nothing to do with jews. Most of these soldiers turned against Germans and joined the Russian partisans anyway.
Funny how there is no mention of 82nd Tamanian Division, volunteer army from Armenia that pushed Germany back in North Caucasus and gave 250,000 casualties, even though there was no war on Armenian teritory in WWII. They fought hard, because they knew of the secret pact Turks had with Germany to attack through Armenia and take Baku once Germans reached Caspian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gZHoTnBZE
Stop fabricating, it is UGLY !
It is obvious to me that Jewcy is being flooded by professional Turkish fabricators, just cutting and posting far fetched assumptions and falsehoods from Turkish Anti-Armenian propaganda machine. Next thing they will say is that it was the Armenians that drove Jews out of Spain in 1492.
I wonder if this Anonymous person really does believe everything that he posts, if he does, then I trully do feel sorry for him, this just shows that Turkish people have been subjected to Mental and Moral Genocide by their own government.
Only a Genocide Denying Turk can turn a human rights activist into a supposedly America hating terrorist. Taner Akcam hates America so much that he is a professor of history at the University of Minessato. Here's the real Taner Akcam:
He received a ten-year prison sentence in Turkey for his invovement in producing a student journal that focused on Turkey’s treatment of the Kurdish minority. This resulted in Amnesty International adopting him in 1976 as a prisoner of conscience. After one year he escaped and was granted political asylum in Germany. In August 1988 Akçam began work as a research scientist at the Hamburg Institute for Social Research.He received his PhD from Hanover University with a dissertation titled, Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide: On the Background of the Military Tribunals in Istanbul between 1919 and 1922. Currently he belongs to the scientific staff of the Hamburg Foundation to promote science and culture, working at the Hamburg Institute for Social Research. Beginning in 2002 Akçam has been a Visiting Associate Professor of History at the University of Minnesota. What a Terrorist!
In Turkey they call him a Terrorist. The rest of the world calls him a human rights activist.
Samuel Weems
There was a funeral a few weeks ago in Vienna, Austria. Two small black urns were buried containing the brains and a few remains of 4-year old Annemarie Danner and 18-month old Gerhard Zeketner. During World War II these were two of the more than 600 children the Nazis proclaimed "worthless lives." These children were taken to Vienna's Am Stein Hospital to be murdered and their bodies used for medical research.
Between 1935 and 1945, in the name of medical science and research, the Nazis murdered more than 75,000 individuals, including 5,000 children across Europe, in their quest to create a racial/ethnic pure state. These acts of terror and cruelty were in addition to what the Nazis did at their many death camps were Jews were exterminated.
The term "genocide" was invented and created in 1944 to describe all the many different acts of murder the Nazis used in their attempt to exterminate the entire Jewish race. Annemarie Danner and Gerhard Zeketner are but two of the individual lives the Nazis stamped out.
Armenians today are attempting to "steal" the term genocide by making the fake claim that the Turks massacred 1.5 million of their people in 1915. The undisputed hard evidence is that this tall tale was nothing more than the figment of the imagination of a high priest of the one and only state Armenian church. The priest's motive for making up and telling this horrible lie was his attempt to get a foreign government to come and help the Armenians obtain someone else's homes and land for free. This great lie is the foundation upon which the Armenian government has established its multi billion dollar fake "genocide industry." The Armenians have been operating on this great lie since 1918. Armenia operates their "genocide industry" with great success in today's world even if they do operate on fraud and deceit.
The truth is the Ottoman Turks did only one thing which had good cause for doing so, but gave the Armenians a chance to claim that there was a massacre going on. That single act was to ask the Armenian Church to help them stop their congregations' nightly terrorist acts against the Ottoman military supply lines. The Russians had invaded the Ottoman Empire and the Armenians in the eastern part of the country had joined the Russians. The Armenian Church refused to help the Ottoman government and state officials responded by saying they would themselves have to remove all Armenians from behind their army lines.
Thereafter, the Ottoman government did remove all the Armenians who were doing such harm to their military forces. The United States of America has done exactly
the same thing during World War II. Several Americans are known to have seen Armenians being alive and leaving the combat zone even though the Armenian church claims they were all murdered.
At no time did the Ottoman Turks exterminate children for medical research as the Nazis did between 1935–1945. What makes such acts of Nazi terrorism worse is the fact they did not act alone in their attempts to create an ethnic/racial pure state. Consider the fact that more than 100,000 Armenians volunteered for Nazi military service and took an active part in the Nazi ethnic/racial cleansing campaigns. For ten long years Armenians took part in exterminating not only Jews but also children such as Annemarie Danner and Gerhard Zeketner.
During World War II Armenians learned well the art of racial/ethnic cleansing from their Nazi partners in crime. Today. Armenia has ethnically/racially cleansed their tiny state so successfully that 94.8% of their population is now ethnically pure Armenian. The Armenians have ethnically/racially cleansed their tiny state of what they consider their "undesirables" much like they helped the Nazis do between 1935/1945. Jews, Muslims, and Christians of other faiths other than the state owned and approved church have either been murdered or forced out of Armenia.
Consider the fact of how Armenia today continues to honor the Nazis. The Armenian Nazi General Dro commanded the 20,000 strong Armenian-Nazi 812th Battalion during World War II. After the war, even though serving the Nazis, Armenian Dro talked his way into the United States of America where he remained until his death. Just last year Armenians dug him up and took his body back to Armenia where he was reburied with full military and state honors. The Armenian American colony raised several hundred thousand dollars to help fund a youth leadership institute to honor this Armenian Nazi general. Just what specific leadership is Armenian children being taught today in the General Dro leadership institute–hate, ethnic purity of the Armenian race, racial superiority?
And to think the Armenians, still running their "genocide industry" scam are building their very own genocide memorial two blocks from the American White House. There are less than one million Armenians even in the United States. Why should they spend $75 million dollars on a false claim to something that is disputed that happened 6000 miles away more than 85 years ago. The answer is simple. The Armenian American colony will use this self-invented, fake memorial to deceive and fleece even more American taxpayer dollars for their less than 200 year old homeland the Russians gave them after taking these lands from the Muslim owners. This Armenian genocide memorial will become one of the greatest and largest frauds ever attempted in the history of the entire world. Can anyone believe that Armenians, who took a very active role in the Jewish genocide of World War II, can build such a fake memorial to themselves today for the sole purpose of deceiving and fleecing American Christian taxpayers out of more and more foreign aid money that over the past ten years alone amounts to almost $1.5 billion dollars!
It is fair to ask since the Armenians were ten year partners in crime with the Nazis during the World War II years–will they have a memorial to Annemarie and Gerhard and all the other poor souls the Armenians helped the Nazis murder and exterminate?
Samuel A. Weems is a retired U.S. judge from Arkansas and is the author of ARMENIA: Secrets of A 'Christian' Terrorist State, The Armenian Great Deception Series – Volume 1, St. John Press.
…
In 1492 the king of Spain issued an edict to expel all Jews from Spain who did not convert to Christianity. When the news of this reached the Ottoman Empire, the Sultan (Emperor) Beyazit II issued a decree to welcome the Jews expelled from Spain. A significant portion of those expelled thus came to the Ottoman Empire and settled mostly in European parts of the Empire. The Turkish Jews are also identified as Sephardic Jews. This derives from the word Sepharad which in Hebrew means Spain.
Since 1492, through five centuries, the Ottoman sultans and the modem day Turkish Republic, welcomed the Jews and offered them a safe haven from persecution in the European countries. The Ottoman Empire at its zenith became one the largest empires in World History covering most of Mediterranean basin region extending from North Africa to Eastern Europe. It has been suggested that one of the characteristics that extended the domination of the Ottoman Empire was its allowance of religious freedom for the different nationalities and minorities under its rule. While many European nations expelled, persecuted or tried to convert the Jews under their dominion, the Turkish people of the Ottoman Empire, remained as an outstanding example of tolerance of different nationalities with different religions.
In pre World War II times Turkey opened its doors to Jews from Europe and many German Jewish scientists came to Turkey escaping the Nazi regime. As a biochemist myself, by first hand account I have heard stories of Turkish scientists honoring their German Jewish teachers who escaped to Turkey and taught in universities in Istanbul. The Sephardic communities in Turkey and Bulgaria were the only communities that did not suffer the Nazi Holocaust, thanks to the wisdom of the leaders of these countries during World War II. In contrast, nearly the entire Sephardic Jewish community pf Greece was killed during World War II by the Nazi death machine. The Turkish ambassador to the Greek Island Rhodes, Mr. Selahattin Ulkumen, was awarded the unique medal of “The Righteous Among the Nations” for saving Jews of this island risking his own life.
Israel Hanukoglu, Ph.D.
Research Institute
College of Judea and Samaria
Ariel, Israel
Armenians are quoting Taner Akcam…Who is he?
Taner Akcam was born in Kars/Turkey. He is the son of the leftist writer Dursun Akcam. Taner Akcam became involved in radical leftist activities while he was still a lycee student. His radicalism intensified while he studied at the Middle East Technical University in the early 1970s. Akcam moved from student activism into political terrorism by joining the THKP-C (Turkiye Halk Kurtulus Partisi-Cephesi-Turkish People's Liberation Party-Front) in 1972 — a terrorist organization that was implicated in the assassinations and killings of Turkish security officials, and American and NATO military personnel. In the mid-1970s, Akcam became a leading member of DEV-YOL (Devrimci Yol-Revolutionary Path) and the editor of its periodical Devrimci Genclik Dergisi (Revolutionary Youth Magazine). It might be recalled that DEV-YOL was one of
the two principal leftist terrorist organizations (the other being DEV-SOL) that played a major role in the bloody escalation of
political violence in Turkey during the 1970s. In the bizarre ideological divisions among the leftist groups that proliferated on the Turkish political scene at the time, DEV-YOL was known
as following a "pro-Soviet" line in terms of its international loyalties. DEV-YOL's bloody terrorist activities, which claimed hundreds of
fatalities and a large number of serious injuries, included assassinations, armed attacks, bombings, and bank
robberies. The group also achieved notoriety when it set up a so-called "liberated zone" in the town of Fatsa
on the Black Sea coast where DEV-YOL militants established their control for several months before being routed by the security forces.
During this period of heightened terrorism, Akcam was an active participant in the planning of assassinations and armed attacks against the targets chosen by DEV-YOL. He was in the inner
leadership circle of the terrorist organization and worked as the right-hand man of its leader Oguzhan Muftuoglu. In addition, as the
editor of DEV-YOL's magazine, he wrote numerous articles exhorting DEV-YOL militants to engage in violence to bring down "the oligarchy", to punish "the fascists", and to get rid of "American imperialism." By the mid-1970s, as political violence between the far-left and ultra-nationalist groups escalated, Akcam had
become one of the leading "theoreticians" of leftist terrorism and violence in Turkey.
Taner Akcam was arrested in 1976. After a trial that lasted several months he was sentenced to eight years and nine months for his role in fomenting terrorism and political violence. However, Akcam did not stay in jail for long: in a spectacular incident that made the headlines in the Turkish press, he escaped from a prison in
Ankara along with four other convicted terrorists in March 1977. After hiding in Turkey for several months, he managed to find his way to Germany where he asked — and received — political asylum.
In Germany, Akcam continued his involvement in radical leftist activism and became the leader of a group known as Gocmen Harekat (Migrant's Movement) that sought to reorganize the
other leftist terrorists who had escaped from Turkey. In the aftermath of the 1980 military coup in Turkey, Akcam became a leading figure in mobilizing demonstrations and protests against Turkey in Germany.
He also wrote articles in various leftist publications in which he criticized DEV-YOL's leader Muftuoglu for his "pacifism" and called for the renewal of the "armed struggle" in Turkey. He also maintained his fanatical criticisms and attacks against of the West in general, and the United States in particular. In an interview in
1989, he declared: "I consider saying 'yes' to NATO and the European Union the biggest shame for a revolutionary. I am against the West since I consider it an imperialist power…and because I view the technology, culture, and politics of the West
dangerous for all mankind."
Akcam returned to Turkey in 1993 for the first time since his prison escape. Since his 1977 conviction and sentence had expired, he could not be put back into prison. In a press conference that he held upon his arrival to Istanbul, he stated that "DEV-YOL's struggle" was going to continue. However, by the early 1990s, DEV-YOL had become a relic of the past and a new generation of terrorists
had appeared on the scene that did not much care for older militants such as Akcam. Taner Akcam then worked for a period as an "advisor" to another former leftists radical, Gurbuz Cap¹n, who had become the mayor of Esenyurt municipality in Istanbul.
In the 1990s, Akcam decided to reinvent himself as a "scholar" by writing books and articles on the Armenian question. Following graduate work in the university, he became affiliated with a research center in Hamburg. His uncritical acceptance of the Armenian version of the events that took place in Eastern Anatolia during World War I quickly gained him the sympathy and support of
the anti-Turkey groups — Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks — first in Europe, and later in the U.S. At last, after spending years
in terrorist organizations, hiding from the police, and living in exile as a refugee, Akcam had found his true calling in life. By gaining the dubious distinction of being the first "Turkish scholar" to agree wholeheartedly with all the Armenian allegations and claims against Turkey, Akcam finally managed to make a name for himself outside of terrorism and also earn a livelihood through the financial support provided by Armenian diaspora organizations.
Akcam's critical views about Turkey and the actions of the Turkish state is typical of a generation of leftist intellectuals and political activists who emerged on the Turkish political scene beginning in the late 1960s. For them, the Turkish state is capable of doing nothing good and worthy and everything that smells foul and nasty.
As their hopes for a leftist revolution in Turkey faded away with the
disintegration of the Soviet Union and the communist regimes around Turkey, they have searched for new venues to vent
their anger and opposition to the Turkish state. Some former radical leftists have taken up political Islam as their new cause. Others have become supporters of radical Kurdish nationalism and the PKK. And in the case of Akcam, his lifelong opposition to Turkish state has manifested itself through his unabashed support for the Armenian falsifiers of history.
It is lamentable that a person who has been a fanatical critic of the U.S. throughout his adult life and who has worked in terrorist organizations that were directly responsible for the deaths of American citizens is now warmly embraced by Armenians living in this country. Perhaps this should not come as a surprise since the
Armenian activists have shown, over and over again, that they are willing to provide moral and material support to those who engage in terrorist acts directed at Turkey and Turkish officials. As a former terrorist leader with a long record of involvement in activities against the Turkish state, Akcam should feel at home among his new Armenian patrons.
I suggest to Jewcy staff to make full disclosure of persona as a prerequisite to posting comments. That should prevent fabricators and liars from poluting these pages.
The truth is apparent to anyone who cares to see. You shouldn't worry about that.
You are only partially correct about the Germans. While the West Germans acknowledged their guilt, the East Germans never did. And Germany has not coincidentally seen an increase in anti-semitism, racism and xenophobia since the two nations came together following the collapse of the Soviet Union.
There are many similarities and many differences between the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust. I think the biggest difference is that the nation that succeeded the Holocaust faced its history and shame and repentend, whereas the nation that succeeded the Armenian Genocide built itself on the lie that the Armenian Genocide never happened and that Armenians were a small, insignificant, and back-stabbing minority in any case. That's why today few question the Holocaust, but we Armenians unfortunately have an entire nation of deniers with which we have to deal. And they outnumber us 10 to 1 (75,000,000 million Turks vs. 7,500,000 Armenians worldwide). No matter how loud we scream we can never drown out their lies.
Gary – kudos for bringing attention to Michael Van Der Galien's denialist rhetoric. An occasional columnist for the Turkish Daily News, it is obvious that MvdG has no credibility whatsoever to have an objective view on the Armenian genocide. And he's recently resorted to banning entries – seems to me like a mini-version of Article 301 on the internet. He mentions Bernard Lewis, Norman Stone, Gunter Lewy. How about this list? Prof. Elie WieselProf. Taner AkcamProf. Yehuda BauerProf. Israel Charny Prof. Frank ChalkProf. Stephen FeinsteinProf. Saul Friedman Prof. Edward GaffneyProf. Zev GarberProf. Dorota GlowackaDr. Irving GreenbergProf. Herbert HirschProf. Irving L. HorowitzRabbi Dr. Steve JacobsProf. Steven KatzDr. Marcia LittellFranklin LittellProf. Hubert G. LockeDr. Elizabeth MaxwellProf. Erik Markusen Prof. Saul Mendlowitz Prof. Jack NeedleDr. Philip RosenProf. Alan S, RosenbaumWilliam L. ShulmanProf. Samuel Totten
MvdG’s selective search for “evidence” is clearly skewed. I sincerely hope he does spend the time to study the evidence seriously; one idea would be the book “A Shameful Act” by Taner Akcam.
Example 1: Someone named Andonian wrote a book where he published pictures of telegrams attributed to Talat Pasha as if he had written orders to kill Armenians. Later it was proven that he had made forgeries. Dates were wrong, signature of a mayor who was not holding office at the time was used, writing style did not conform, it was written on paper used in French schools and not in Ottoman government offices, etc. Also, these papers were not used as evidence at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian who assassinated Talat Pasha. Obviously, Armenians knew it was fake. Example 2: During Nuremberg Trials, a crumbled paper was secretly left on the attorney’s desk containing the infamous words attributed to Hitler as “Who remembers…” Upon close examination it was not used as valid evidence, because the attorney had obtained official write up of the said meeting from three sources which did not contain such words. Also, Hitler’s words were added with a different colored pen into the crumbled paper. The news that “new document discovered with Hitler’s xxx words” was published in a newspaper the next morning. Most people suspect that he was the secret person, who left the paper there, because nobody else knew about the filed but unsubstantiated ‘evidence’. Example 3: Armenians presented as evidence the photo of a heap of skulls as if it belonged to Armenians killed by Turks in 1915. Years later, it was discovered by Turkish scientists, that it was a painting of Vasily Vereschagin done in 1856? Named Apotheses to War. The tableau still hangs in a museum in Russia. Armenians know their stories do not hold water. Why else would they apply such falsifications?
How can there be denial of something which is not proven?
Who should decide; someone's grandmother or unbiased historians?
Why attack scientists who disagree with Armen geno club?
Why silence anyone who disagrees with the false allegations?
Why not go to court?
To the fellow Armenians in this forum, you shouldn't accept statements as fact without doing some research first. A lot of the allegations are simply gossip — created by ignorant people that are not willing to accept the facts. When you set out to defame an individual, gossip will always be more damaging and interesting than the actual facts. So when you hear something negative about the Turks (either about what they said, or did, or planned to do, etc.) verify this information before propagating it and using it as an argument to try to prove your point. And don't rely on Armenian websites and news sources for facts as they are always biased to seek vengeance.
Non-Muslims could dodge the army by paying a fee. Most chose this method. In the dying years of the empire army duty was extended to 5 years. It took longer at wartime, which happened to be the case in early 1900s. So, the Muslims became poor and Christians bought their land for little money. Armenians and Jews held the trade from Aegean coast of Izmir to Baghdat – the silk road. When Talat Pasha and Enver Pasha took power, they changed the rules and made it mandatory for other religions to participate in war and join the army or pay increased fee. I recommend you read Prof. Dr. Justin McCarthy, Esat Uras, et al, “Van Rebellion”. The first war in which Christians were called to wear arms was the terrible defeat of SariKhamish (22/12/1914 – 15/01/1915) where almost all of the Turkish soldiers died. Most Armenians deserted, some used their weapons against the Turks, and a lot joined the Russian army. Even the civilian Armenians forbid giving bread to these dying soldiers. So, the Armenians’ weapons were taken from them and they were assigned to dig trenches. When Russian army advanced into Anatolia, Russian Armenian families came and settled in Eastern Anatolia, and when they retreated some returned back into Russia. Muslims did the same; people swayed back and forth in search of security for many years. All foreign powers were involved in sharing the carcass of the dying Ottoman Empire. They used ethnic strife. They still do!.
Before Ottoman Empire crumbled, two thirds of the population in the Balkans was Muslim. How many are left there now? Where are their mosques? Find a Turk in Greece who can freely use his name. Turkish names were scraped off cemetery stones in Bulgaria. How many mosques are there in Yerevan which once was a Muslim city?
If non-existence of a group of people is proof of geno, then Balkans should be blamed for Turkish geno.
Armenians are evading legal court battles because they know they have no case? Why are they trying to silence the Turks with laws of denial? We all saw how aggressive they became just because PBS taped a video discussion somewhat balancing the subject.
Istanbul Patriarchate, His Holiness Mesrob Mutafyan was not allowed to give a conference in Washington DC. Oh, is there a law 301 in the USA? How about Armenia?
No one can mention the word Turk in Armenia without a negative attached to it. People were jailed for doing research in Armenia. Go clean your own back yard.
I am thankful to Jewcy for shedding light on Lemkin's relationship with the events of 1915. I am troubled, however, to see to what lengths genocide deniers will go in their denialist crusade, even to the point of casting doubt on Lemkin's own motivations.
As Bernard-Henri Levy, the pre-eminent French philospher of our times, has noted in a recent speech ((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Pv89pykC0), genocide denial serves “to continue perpetrating the crime, reproducing it and perfecting it so that the crime becomes flawless. Jews know it well and the Armenians knew it before them”.
Hrant Dink caused ethnic strife with his words “Turks poisoned blood can be cleansed with clean blood of Armenians from Armenia”, not because he uttered the “g” word. Every country has laws protecting their citizens and republican symbols from insult. Armenians should stop burning Turkish flags.
Vrezh says: “..there was no Genocide of the jews in Germany, since not all of them got moved.”
How many Jews continued with their usual lives in Berlin, during the Jewish Holocaust?
The Jews were forced to wear signs on their lapel long before the war erupted. There was belittling of the Jews and the gypsies, etc. Armenians on the other hand were in the parliament. The Sultan's money was in the hands of an Armenian. His doctor was an Armenian. Actually, Armenians were richer than the Turks all over.
Anti-Semitism was always present all over Europe. It made a peak in 1494 Spain, and 1930s in Germany. Now, Turks are becoming the Jews of this World. Acceptance of unproven Armenian allegations is at the heart of the matter. While only individual perpetrators are held accountable in all other human rights courts, in the case of 1915 allegations, all Turkish people and Turkey’s interests are being targeted.
A Turkish man described how he was verbally abused at the office he was working in Canada for wearing a Turkish flag pin on his lapel. In USA a boy was mistreated inside a police wan by an Armenian police officer after hearing he was Turkish. If the other officers do not intervene in time, people could be unjustly arrested. I feel the pressure in multi national work places. Turks are persecuted for just being born Turkish.
Armenians on the other hand were relocated for posing a security threat in 1915, not for belonging to a certain group. The aim was to subdue their uprising by the relocation program. If intention was to eradicate them, killing them right then and there would have been easier than recording their belongings, giving them opportunity to open up new business in their new locations. Furthermore, they were allowed to return, and a lot of them did return. Applying denial laws to something which does not have clear cut proof is in effect silencing the truth.
MvdG, who runs a blog in which he indulges in genocide denial (http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/the-push-for-recognition-continues/), apparently cannot accept to be compared to David Irving.
Note the censcorship tendencies of the MvdG blog admin in response to a juxtaposition of two similar quotes in my comment entry:
***
MvdG writes: “In short; to me, this should be researched by unbiased historians.”
[Censored portion:
On June 16, 2006, at a news conference following a meeting with China's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said the following: "[…] these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties."
How pathetically similar quotes, may I note?
End of censored portion]
[text replacing censored portion:
admin: accusing people who disagree with you of being Holocaust deniers can get you banned — knock it off
All this BS arguments brought forward by all genocide deniers on this page are pointless – none is more relevant than the verdict by the International Association of Genocide Scholars, which is the foremost authority on the subject.
At its 1997 assembly held in Montreal, the International Association of Genocide Scholars affirmed that the attempted extermination of Armenians in 1915 did indeed constitute genocide. More pointedly, it also condemned “the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters.”
Duh?
Any person with common sense should be able to see just based on historical events that the massacres of the Armenians was a planned act.
Prior to WWI Young Turks confiscated weapons from Armenians.
When WWI started most able bodied Armenian men were taken into the Ottoman Army, so the towns and villages were left with only old men, women and children (these were huge threat to Ottoman Empire).
Next steps were to kill all of the inteligencia, then Armenians within the Army, then civilians in villages and town in remote isolated places, then deport Armenians from larger towns to an inhabitable desert by marching them with help of murderers.
Next step was to attack the Russian controled Armenia, but that failed and the retaliation was quite harsh.
Of course all this would have been followed by a major famine since the food producers were eliminated.
There are no Armenians living today in the lands that they lived in for at least 2500 years, this is the biggest proof of attempted Genocide.
Killing of the Armenians was the biggest crime against Turkey itself, it eliminated one the most capable, skilled, and educated layer of its own society. Imagine what Turkey would have been today if it had not massacred Armenians.
I have read so many of the responses…I don't know how to respond say..its a shame or what …lets name referneces saying that the genocide happened…the survivors are enough…I myself is enough….I don't need others to say me that its all delusional…then there are people who said that some people were allowed to be left in their land in Anatolia…but do you know anything about the conditions? Well, some were changed places..taken from one place to another…others were forced to work for the ottoman government because of their skills cause they were doctors, engeeniers or craftsmen…ok ..one more note…go today to any part of the Anatolia (besides constantinople) and visit those Armenians and name one who can freely stand and say "I'm christian Armenian" if they do that…the next day their houses are burned down or they were called "infedels" or "gyavours".
And please explain this law which is number 301 in Turkey who will be condemn all those who say or change something then its something against the Turkish identity…Turkey who is saying they are so democratic and doing their best to be in the European Enion….what can you about that….there are other things that happen in the word everyday…like an american or a british want to convert to islam or to embrace judaism…or the vice versa a muslim wants to be a christian….do they get persecuted for it….? I thought this is that freedom should be defined…
I can go on and continue saying many things….how can they don't say what happened to us a genocide where someplace else 400,000 or 10,000 death is called a genocide…or when they put Saddam Hussein to trial they said he was a butcher by killing thousands of Iraquis….now…answer this ….but we all know that there was something else there…it wasn't for the sake of all those who died (cause still there are death and killings everyday) or to punish Saddam…but it was all for the "Black Gold" …and why we are still arguing about this…we heard the answer crystal clear there is strategic and economic benifits to lie about the truth or distort it….and this is the beautiful truth…how come a country (Turkey) who is allied with US to fighting terrorism is threatening the US if they adopt the resolution….isn't this another form of terrorism….? And if someone says that the Armenian resistance back then is considered terrorism or whatever…its just that they were in their lands and they were fighting against oppression and they were defending their families…its the least a person can do in a moment of danger and threat. Thank you all for taking your time and reading this….I no longer want to say anything…cause all those who still go on denying or debating or arguing aginst this by stupid remarks….they are nothing but ignorants.
Its laughable for the poster to say that minorities live happily in Turkey. Do you have any concept what it feels like to be a minority in Turkey. Sure, as long as they behave like "good Turks", change their names so that they have Turkish endings and follow the party line, things are ok. But, they are not free. They are not happy. Jews, Armenians, Kurds alike.
Go to the islands off Istanbul's coast and see what the minorities say once they are with their own kind. There is a Jewish island, a Greek island, an Armenian island.
Its another myth perpetuated by a nation of liars that Turkish minorities are content. If the Jews in Turkey were so content and safe, why would foxy Foxman make such an effort to "protect" them.
The Turks listen only to themselves and serve only their own self-interest. Where were our Turkish allies when we wanted to invade Iraq from the North? Silent. Where are our Turkish allies now that we desperately do not want them to invade Iraq to solve their "Kurdish problem?" They are gearing up to invade Iraq, destabilize the region even further and place our troops in even more danger. Congress backs down on the Genocide Resolution and the Turks still do what they want to do.
Wake up America.
No where in this discussion do I see any reference to Turkish Penal Code Section 301 which makes it a crime to "insult Turkishness" in Turkey. Numerous citizens of Turkey have been charged with violating Turkish Penal Code Section 301 including the nobel prize winning Turkish author Orhan Pamuk, Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink and Dink's son who was just recently prosecuted under Section 301. These authors among others were prosecuted simply for mentioning the deaths of the Armenians between 1915-1923. Pamuk didn't even use the "G" word!!
Turkish author Taner Ackam, who actually has studied the "Turkish archives" lives today in exile and in fear for his life after publishing a book that actually used TURKISH sources to prove that the Ottoman Turks committed a GENOCIDE against the Armenians. Hrant Dink was gunned down in front of his office on a Turkish street and murdered for attempting to exercise his right to free speech in Turkey.
Turkish children are taught absolutely NOTHING about what happened to the Armenians. They walk past abandoned Armenian churches, homes, buildings every single day and yet are not allowed to ask what happened to all the Armenians who once lived there.
How can those of you who attempt to discredit numerous eye-witness accounts (by both survivors and foreigners in Turkey at the time of the Genocide), Turkish and international documents, pictures and more speak with any credibility when the Turkish Government TO THIS DAY calls it a crime to discuss Turkish history. Ask yourselves, what is the Turkish Government so afraid of? Why do they not want their citizenry to know the truth? If they did nothing wrong in 1915 then why try to hide it.
Frankly, I thought we were past the discussion about whether or not the Genocide happened.
I think you're mistaken. Prof. Halacoglu stated that the said documents did not exist. How can you submit non-existing documents?
The International Association of Genocide Scholars declared that it was genocide. Aren't they historians/scientists/specialists?
Anon says, "Please tell us one time that it was proven."
Others say, "Fifty thousand dollars. Fifty thousand dollars if you can show me proof that even a single person died in gas chambers at Auschwitz."
Please tell us one time that it was proven.
If a scientist is caught stealing centuries old documents from Ottoman archives, he sure should be bannded from entering said place. Case with Dadrian and Keizer.
Prof. Yusuf Halacoglu submitted the required documents to the VAT discussion forum. Armenian side rsilently withdrew.
What credentials does Khatchig Mouradian hold other than being the editor of the Armenian Weekly? He seems to have not researched any historic or leagl facts regarding Ottoman History. Professors Bernard Lewis, Justin McCarthy and Heath Lowry on the other hand studied the historical facts as outsiders and came up with scientific conclusnts.
Armenians are approaching the events with hysteria as they have been indoctrinated with exaggerated (sometimes false) stories at pre-Kindergarted age. Some have the nerve to eliminate Turkish historians from this debate and listen only to one side of the 'story'.
In the world of academia
there are certain rules. You do not willingly disregard sources, facts,
documents, experiments, papers etc…. I for instance am a soil scientist and I
do not accept funding from chemical corporations or environmental NGOs. It's
called independent research. Furthermore, in a field like history, where most
of your work is based on reading and interpreting documents, the basic rule is
to at least be able to read the language in which these documents are written.
If you're doing
research on Turkey
then you should research their archives thoroughly, I agree with you.
However, you shouldn't disregard all the other sources that are available to you (French, British, US,
German archivevs, etc…).
Unfortunately, the three
historians you mentioned did not perform their jobs thoroughly. As a researcher
or a scientist you're allowed to conduct research on any topic you feel
like. However you are required to obey the basic rules of academia and Ethics.
And one last thing. You say "It would
make sense for you to work in Turkey
if you can". Have you ever asked yourself why some European historians
(having no links, none what so ever, with the Armenian government or NGOs) have
never been granted access to Turkish archives? Why did Prof. Halacoglu
deny to give access to the Turkish archives for a joint study, the type of study he had called for (Sabah, March 13 2007; Turkish daily news, March 14 2007)?
Why couldn’t Prof. David Gaunt research the remains found in a mass graves near
Mardin (Turkish daily news, April 22, 2007)?
Raphael Lemkin was only 14 years old in 1915. He has never been to Anatolia. Any opinion he may have reached was based on hearsay. Opinion does not count as proof in the court of law. Hundreds of thousands of Turks died in the hands of the Armenians during 1915-1923. Many more died due to hunger and destruction brought on by the war conditions created by Armenian treason. Armenians were clearly at war against Turks. Warring parties were removed form the UN convention of genocide upon Raphael Lemkin’s recommendation. Head of Armenian delegation Boghos Nubar boasted “150,000 volunteers in the Russian Army, 45,000 in the French and 30,000 in other areas fought on the side of the Allies against the Turks”. Out of a population of 1.3 million Armenians, 225,000 up in arms is quite a lot. What would you do if Mexicans join forces with the Mexicans at a time when Mexica attempts to invade the US?Ottomans deported Armenians in self defense. War is ugly; disease and hunger become rampant. Millions of Muslims and Christians died due to famine, gunshot and in the hands of opportunists. Dashnaks should apologize from both Muslims and Armenians for a war which resulted in all people’s demise. Lemkin wished the crime was punished by law, however, we see the so called ‘victims’ hating all Turks and standing in the way of anything good for Turkey. They harbor radical anti-racist feelings. Due to their effort Turks have become the Jews of the world.
The events of 1915-1923 in what is now Eastern Turkey have been proved time and time again by countless historians that genocide was indeed committed against the Armenian people by the Ottoman Turkish government. Let's not forget eyewitness accounts that have been documented in print and on film/video. To make excuses and explanations that the Armenian massacres were not really what they appeared to be or that they should not be labeled genocide is simply morally irresponsible and discredits those who make such baseless arguments.
Christian
You guys of the Armenian lobby are hilarious. Just discredit everyone who dares disagree with your view. That's a great way to bully people into doing what you want them to do, isn't it? It has served you quite well, sadly, it doesn't do so any longer. Nowadays, more and more people are looking for the facts and more and more people realize that there's more to it than the anti-Turkish commenters in this thread indicate.
Sticking to the facts writes the anonymous hero that no one responsible for deaths of Armenians has been punished….
This is a great lie. They have been punished. Many of those who committed crimes have been punished, even put to death.
Regarding that some historians work in Turkey: that's completely irrelevant. They're experts. They probably work in Turkey because that is their expertise. If Turkey and the Ottoman Empire is your expertise it would make sense for you to work in Turkey if possible. Furthermore, these historians could work at any university they want. It's not like they'll starve if they don't work for a Turkish university. IOW: completely irrelevant and its time for all you to drop the idiotic accusations.
1) Bernard Lewis was fined only 1 Franc because he said Armenian genocide did not happen and that happens to be a crime in France. Same country who murdered over a million Algerians and never admitted doing so but are conveniently prosecuting others..
2) Prof Stanford Shaw also lived in Turkey until he died and the reason for him moving there was because Armenians burnt down his home in the States and threatened his life, which made him make this move.
According to Armenians' logic: anyone who debates the Armenian point of view, even if with factual documents, are Holocaust deniers, paid for by the Turkish government & are definitely not reliable. What kind of logic is this? Armenian deaths had nothing in common with the Holocaust. Jewish people did not bear arms & revolted against Germans. Their country was not under attack by different countries on all sides of the Empire and they did not side with the enemy to kill their neighbors, friends with whom they lived centuries together.
3) Gunter Lewy is a very respectable historian and his book does not take sides. He's able to look at events objectively. When Peter Balakian writes, does he ever study and make use of Ottoman archives? Does he speak Turkish? How reliable could he be when he writes based on one sided documents only, plus Armenian archives are not even completely open.
4) Unlike your statement, many were prosecuted by the Turkish government for crimes committed against the Armenians.
I do not believe it is in the best interests of Jews to label the Armenian events as a "Genocide". That word is rightly understood and applied only to efforts to exterminate an entire ethnic group and the real evidence shows that the Turks -who opened their doors to the Jews centuries ago when Europe set them afloat on boats- were, and still are, friendly to the Armenians also. It was only in a situation of extreme danger that the leadership in Constantinople – acting on fears that the Christian Armenians of Eastern Anatolia might align themselves with "Holy Russia", the hereditary enemy of the Ottomans- embarked on a series of ill-conceived strategic maneuvers and blunders that ultimately led to such dreadful loss of life not only for Armenians but for Turks and Kurds also (often at the hands of Armenians). It is a complete distortion of historical facts to describe these events as an attempt to exterminate the Armenians – and the charge is deeply offensive to the Turks who have treated the Jews well for centuries and will undoubtedly continue to do so.
Jason Epstein had it right when he warned his community about this storm:
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/blogs/posting/11891.html
He/She mentions Bernard Lewis, Gunter Lewy and the rest of the Turkey apologists. Has MvdG heard of David Irving and the likes of him?
Or maybe he/she believes in the story of Adam and Eve. For as Larry Derfner recently wrote in the Jerusalem Post, "there are probably fewer historians who doubt the Armenian genocide than there are scientists who doubt evolution. Maybe we should reserve judgment on evolution, too".
Khatchig djan,
I am willing to bet that Cohen knew all the facts, but he purposefully distorted things to make an argument, most likely under advisement from his managers. The problem with the media in US is that there is no real punishment for liars. It is sad when people fear spreading the truth more than they fear telling lies.
MvdG,
According to your immaculate logic, there was no Genocide of the jews in Germany, since not all of them got moved.
These sort of desperate idiotic arguments do really anger me.
Khatchig: what, if any, interactions have you had with american-muslim organizations about the recognition of the armenian holocaust?
1-Bernard Lewis was convicted by a French court for not analyzing the facts thoroughly and for failing to perform his duty as a historian.
2- Stone has been living and teaching in Turkey since 1997.
3- Gunter Lewy does not read (or speak) Turkish and admitted that all the translations he worked on were provided by unnamed translators.
4- The Turkish government didn't raise a single finger to punish those who killed Armenians. They even built a memorial to honour Talaat and the Young Turks.
Care to provide more facts?
"
One case in point is Richard
Cohen's article in the Washington Post, titled "Turkey's War on the
Truth" (Oct. 16, 2007). Cohen makes arguments based on false premises.
After conceding–with condescension–that what happened to the Armenians
in 1915 was "plenty bad," he concludes that it
falls short of genocide "because not all Armenians…were…affected."
Clearly, if we follow his train of thought, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur
and several other cases should not be labeled as "genocide.""
Actually, Cohen is correct. If the only Armenians who were deported were the ones living in certain areas of Anatolia, while all other Armenians were allowed to stay and weren't touched, it wasn't genocide.
Your point about Lemkin is, by the way, completely and utterly irrelevant. He only heard the stories of Armenians and didn't do the research necessary to establish whether or not the ottoman government ordered the extermination of the empire's Armenian population. He thought that things happened in a certain way, but many historians now believe that he was not correct about that.
Bernard Lewis, Norman Stone, Gunter Lewy… the list goes on and on… all argue that what happened wasn't genocide and that the Ottoman government even tried to protect the Armenians who were deported.
Furthermore, the government later punished those who killed Armenians. Would a government that wanted to commit genocide do that? Of course not.
Stick to the facts indeed.
Thank you, the urge to diminish inconvient genocides has been particularly strong lately. Witness Carter's belief that we shouldn't all Armenia a genocide because it would upset the Turks. He also doesn't feel that Darfur was a gencocide under international law, but didn't provide any basis for that statement. Thank you for speaking out.
-Matt
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