Did Ahmadinejad Call For Israel To Be "Wiped Off The Map"?

Why the lying about Iran?

The same realist foreign policy logic by which the US dumped Taiwan (ROC) for the PRC would suggest that the US should dump Israel for Iran as an ally.

 As for the Iranian Holocaust Conference (the picture associated with this blog entry), the following article is relevant.

Holoexaleipsis, Holocaust, Holosphage and Holodomor

Nazi Holocaust in Context of Soviet Holosphage and Zionist Holoexaleipsis
by Joachim Martillo

A lot of the people attending the Iran Holocaust Conference were unsavory (and most of the attendees identified in the news reports have little or no qualifications as genuine historians+), but ignoring or slighting the importance of the presence of representatives from the Orthodox Jewish Neturei Karta movement is a mistake.

Before the government of the State of Israel found ways to enmesh and co-opt large numbers of religious Jews, anti-Zionist Jewish groups like Neturei Karta used to represent the mainstream in religious Jewish thinking. The few remaining religious anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and communities have maintained their integrity by rejecting all Israeli government subsidization. Like Ahmedinejad and some Holocaust studies specialists, they are concerned

that the Holocaust of popular discourse is misused to justify Israeli oppression of Palestinians and
that common media representations of the Holocaust rarely correspond to the facts.

Both Neturei Karta and Ahmedinejad have a point. Since the opening of Soviet and Eastern European archives to Western researchers, there has been a revolution in scholarly understanding of the beginnings and early history of the Soviet Union.

Soviet mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing becomes for all intents and purposes an assembly line phenomenon long before Hitler took power in Germany. The Holocaust and German Nazism itself are only comprehensible in terms of Central and Eastern European fear of the Soviet Union and awareness of Soviet atrocities. Careful analysis of Soviet archival data shows that the Central and Eastern European popular identification of ethnic Ashkenazim with the Soviet Union was quite rational, for Soviet ethnic Ashkenazim formed the quintessential Soviet class and generally filled the leading roles in planning and executing Soviet crimes like the Great Starvation (Holodomor) in the Ukraine, collectivization, dekulakization, the mass shootings by the secret police, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.*

Because the mentality of Soviet Ashkenazim and Zionist Ashkenazim is so similar in many regards, it is hardly surprising that alienization, which made entire Soviet ethnic groups aliens in their own lands, has strong similarities to the Zionist process of dispossessing, murdering, ethnic cleansing and genociding the native population of historic Palestine.

While the Eastern block data does in fact suggest that even the preeminent Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg may have overestimated Jewish mortality in the Holocaust, the new information is more important because it indicates that much of the mass murder of Jews during WW2 was unjustified but very understandable reaction to or collective revenge on Jews for the part that a very large segment of the Eastern European and Russian Jewish population played in the commission of Soviet mass murder and atrocities. By the 1940s a lot of Eastern European and oppressed Soviet ethnic groups were more than willing to kill Jews without any incitement from the Germans, and they did, and this killing probably represents approximately half the number of Jewish casualties from mass murder during WW2.

We in America really do have to rethink and revise our understanding of the Holocaust, and if we need to identify an archetypal genocide to use as the measure of all other modern genocides, the Holoexaleipsis, which is the Great Erasure that includes the Palestinian Nakba or Catastrophe, provides the best model. It was planned in cold-blood by racist Eastern Europeans during the late 19th century, the first major mass murders and ethnic cleansing took place during 1947-8, and it continues to this day right before our eyes. The Holoexaleipsis includes wholesale demonization of Arabs and Muslims along with the erasure of whole fields of scholarship (including Jewish as well as Arabic and Islamic studies) so that they can be rewritten to justify Zionist and American depredations on the peoples of the Middle East.

+ St. Francis Xavier University Professor Shiraz Dossa was an exception. He presented a paper on the misuse of the Holocaust in the justification for the war on terror.

* The totality of these Soviet crimes constitute the Soviet Holosphage, which is mass slaughter in the effort to fit the populations of the Russian Empire into a Marxist ideological framework by the crudest Procrustean means.

Why dont you go ask Ahmadinejad whether he wants to wipe Israel off the map? Why dont you ask him why Iran funds terror thru Hezbollah and Hamas, all of which are well documented? I am finding it increasingly more unrealistic that you are a recipient of a Yale diploma.

You poltroon!

You don't seem to realize that the "obliteration" or "annihilation" of the Israeli government, and the war that would have to occur for that goal to be achieved, would necessitate and result in a genocide in and of itself. The Israeli government is what we call a democracy, which means it was elected by and represents the will of the people of the nation. Thus, the "annihilation" of the Israeli "regime" would require the obliteration of the will of the Israeli people. This is what separates this case from that of Iraq, Afghanistan, the Soviet Union, and the Shah (and modern Iran, I might add) in which the nations were ruled by authoritarian elites who were never elected by universal suffrage and were never meant to represent anything other than a complicit minority.

Sadly the anonymous cowards will continue to beat the war drums.

Only the most racist or most delusional can consider the State of Israel a democracy.

With a political ideology that amounts to an assertion that Jews may plunder and kill non-Jews with impunity, racist murderous genocidal Central and Eastern European invaders and interlopers stole Palestine and genocided the native population.

The state established in this original sin differs in no obvious way from inter bellum Eastern European ethnocracies, which were the homelands of most of the founders.

 How could it have been otherwise?

Joachim Martillo
sapere aude

The nazi fuck has the Jews confused with Arabs.  Why don't you do us all a favor and jump off a bridge.  You're an uneducated loser and are just wasting space.

I find it astounding that the staff of Jewcy regards Abe Foxman as a bigger threat to the Jewish people than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. If you were to tally up the negative feedback of Foxman vs Ahmadinejad on this website, Foxman would beat Ahmadinejad by a factor of over 10 to 1. I think that the anit-Zionist Daniel Koffler shares a wet dream with Neturei Karta. Both are anit-Zionists, which is their privelege. However, they are really upset that they are fringe elements among the Jews. The only way they can avoid being fringe elements is by eliminating the mainstream of Jewry. This is where our friend Ahmadinejad comes in 

please bring back micheal weiss.  who chose this guy to write every other post.  he has nothing interesting to say. goading your jewish readers does not mean that you are making an intellectually sound or interesting point. and it seems this is all that koffler can do.  and since when is juan cole a reliable source?   here is a quote from the new york times chalenging cole's traslation:   "But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Bronner stated: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."

 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I guess this undermines the claim that "virtually every expert translator" agree that he never used the words wiping israel off the map.  that is of course unless you consider juan cole to be more reliable than the new york times and a better farsi speaker than the iranian regime who put in on their official website.

Daneil Kophler is a proud alumnis of Yale Beuaty Academy. He does a mean buzz cut. We can rekommend him to any menz hair style shop or salon. We are lokated in beuatiful dowtown New Londonn, Connnnectikut

www.yalebeuatyacademy.kom

Boy, nothing brings out the yahoos like a little honest reporting in the service of correcting a widespread and long-exposed mistranslation. Modesty forbids my saying so, but narcissism demands it, so -ahem- I exposed the "wipe-off-the-map" lie more than once in comments here on Jewcy some time ago. But disinfo rarely sleeps, so.....

Baldwell-

Your crude metric---# of column inches devoted to x=degree to which x is considered a threat---leaves out the very salient fact that Jews may have an elevated interest in addressing the lunacies of a man who's often taken as a spokesperson for their interests rather than those of a ridiculous popinjay whose crackpot notions no one defends. Although I must give you credit for discovering Kofflers's secret plan to eliminate Jews who disagree with him. We in Jihad Central took great pains to keep our control of Koffler under the radar. We didn't count on your fabulous powers of observation. Curses!

anon.6/2 9:37-

re Bronner's NYT piece, Juan Cole (who is quite a reliable source re Farsi and Arabic grammar, being fluent in both languages, despite your having differences with his politics) is quite specific; "mahv shodan" (vanish) is, despite Bronner's claim otherwise, intransitive. The transitive would be "mahv kardan" (wipe out or eliminate). Ahmadinejad used the former.

Note that Bronner's informants made the simple declaration that Ahmadinejad used the transitive; Cole gave us the actual words so we could check for ourselves. Furthermore, just as converts to Papism are more reliable informants re liturgical particulars than cradle Catholics, and recently minted Jews are more halachically savvy than the born-into-the-tribe Kings Highway guys I grew up with (and recent US citizens can tell you more about the Bill of Rights than the average American), so too are fluent readers of second languages more aware of grammatical facts, since they learned the language deliberately rather than through osmosis (you're probably better at identifying the subjunctive in, say, French than in English. In English, you just use it without knowing its name.)

So it makes sense to put more faith in the grammatical convictions of a masterful speaker of a second language than in the intuitions of a native speaker.

And Bronner notwithstanding, Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Motakkisaid said Ahmadinejad had been misinterpreted: "How is it possible to remove a country from a map? He is talking about the regime. We do not legally recognize this regime."(Reuters, 2/2/2006).

And what do you make of Khameini's explicit denial of any wish to attack another country? Why do you give credibility to the largely powerless pipsqueak Ahmadinejad and ignore the comments of the guy who's actually in charge? 

Like the exertions of Judith Miller in the service of slaughter in Iraq, Bronner's claims about Iran are best understood as paving the way for further US adventurism.

Finally, Reagan said, "The march of liberty and democracy...will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history". Did anyone hear that as preparing for a strike on the Soviet Union?   

Ismail

You still havent explained why Iran is engaged in aggressive action against Israel (Hamas, Hezbollah, Argentina, etc), given the lack of common borders and previous conflicts. You call for a single state in Palestine where Jews and Arabs can live together. Given that such an entity did exist (The British Mandate for Palestine) and didnt work well under British supervision, how do you expect to work under no supervision? We know what your real agenda is. A single state of Palestine, where Jews are frightened off with violence (like Christians in Bethlehem, Copts and Jews in Egypt, Christians in Lebanon, Bahais in Iran, etc). You have been recognized as a trojan horse. Go elsewhere

The matter in dispute is the accuracy of the Ahmadinejad "quote". As is the case with most right-Zionist ideologues, you love nothing better than changing the subject when you're caught with your panties down around your ankles. 

If you think that the truth of the quote in question doesn't matter, say so. If, on the other hand, you wish to capitalize on this hoary fraud, don't run away when it's shown to be bullshit.

I haven't explained why Hamas and Hezbollah are engaged in aggressive actions against Israel for the eminently sensible reason that they are not so engaged. Their actions have been defensive responses to Israel's limitless provocations and endless aggression.

Your stupid comparisons to the mandate period reveal such a profound innocence of history that they deserve no response.

As always, I'm deeply impressed by the clairvoyant powers of dwarves like Baldwell, who is able to divine my intentions no matter how ignorant I remain of them myself. Here I thought that I looked forward to the sort of co-operation and tolerance between Arab and Jew that most decent folks desire. Little did I know that I really seek a pogrom. Live and learn.

I've been recognized as a Trojan horse? Tell you what. I recognize you as a Trojan (the latex kind) or a horse's ass. You pick. 

One quibble that's not all that weighty --- granted my Persian is confined to classrooms and so not perfectly idiomatic, but I think there's more than one sense of محو شدن --- so say the Aryanpur and Haim dictionaries, and my friends in Tehrangeles agree; it can range from "to fade" to "to be annihilated." But the context (the USSR, the Shah, and Saddam Hussein) makes the meaning clear.

Very good point about کردن --- I wish I'd mentioned that. Whatever you think about Ahmaghinejad (I've also heard 'Avaleennejad'), he knows how to speak his own language. That's at least as telling as his use of رژیم instead of کشور or ملت

(I imported the international keyboard, btw, to freak out our pal Elvis about the secret jihadi messages, so we can keep this up if you like.) 

Your stupid comparisons to the mandate period reveal such a profound innocence of history that they deserve no response.... Please enlighten me, since I am apparently as ignorant of Elvis. At a time when Czechs and Slovaks decided they cannot live together, neither can Croats, Slovenes, Serbs, and Bosnians, how do you plan to unite Arab and Jew

just because juan cole claims to be fluent in arabic an farsi does not make it so. he had to use a translator on al-jazeera last year.  but anyway this is nonsense.  the iranian regime certainly calls for "wiping Israel off the map"  Here it is from them in English.  

if you want to continue to close your eyes and listen to apologist like cole...have fun.  but please dont spout the propaganda here.

"At a time when Czechs and Slovaks decided they cannot live together, neither can Croats, Slovenes, Serbs, and Bosnians, how do you plan to unite Arab and Jew"

You can't compare Jews to  other groups like that. Jews are the chosen people and must live to a higher standard. Herzl's dream of a Jewish nation that is the same as any other nation state is clearly a failure because the Jewish people will never be the same (for better or worse) as any other grouping.

While the poster says "Israel must be wiped off the map", this is a colloquial English term that means "the dust must be wiped off Israel". The bullet like marks on the forehead of Israel's leaders may be misinterpreted as bullet sights, but are really marks because the Israeli leaders just finished celebrating Ash Wednesday amd they need to get the ash spots on their forehead cleaned off. How do I know this? Juan Cole told me so. Thats proof enough. Now lets concentrate on the most evil man on the planet, Abe Foxman

When the biggest threat we can find is some douche bag with a name that no one can pronounce, who has a big mouth, and is prone to saying mean things about an occupying Western power; one which obliquely threatens his country with preemptive nuclear war on a daily basis.

Well, we better act quickly before Doctor Doom completes his death ray.

Jimbo,

Yes, and during the 1930s, comedians made fun of Hitler's funny name too. Chaplain even made a movie about Adenoid Hynkel, dictator of Tomania. Hynkel's tiny mustache was a hoot. It was less funny when we discovered the Nazi deathcamps. I'm sure we can all laugh at Iranian names too, until someone explodes a nuclear device and then it won't be so funny anymore.

And don't forget Japan. We Americans were so smart and powerful we knew the yellow man could never hurt us. The idea of Japan as a threat to the US was a real joke until Pearl Harbor....