Norman Finkelstein Accuses Jeffrey Goldberg Of Torturing Palestinians

This might be somewhat indicative of his scholarship?  Ya think?

Naftali, I made that argument in the post that Daniel linked to. Additionally, after I wrote that, an employee of CAMERA sent me a story in which Benny Morris accused Finkelstein of being a "notorious distorter of facts."

Finkelstein-bashing has become a tropism in many quarters, and I suspect that many of the offenders haven't read a word the man's written.

Socially inept and prone to rhetorical excess, F is a public relations nightmare. But his scholarship is actually quite sound-note that neither Morris or Novick have bothered to specify what it is that they object to in their 2-sentence dismissals of his work. And a "well-established history of propagating outrageous, paranoid nonsense"? "Image and Reality" is a sober, even dry examination of Middle East scholarship. You may disagree with his conclusions, but none are either paranoid or outrageous. "Holocaust Industry" notes the chicanery of some attorneys and organizations in cutting themselves in for a fatter chunk of reparations than good taste or ethical considerations would deem acceptable, at the expense of the deserving victims. Many of the survivors themselves, both Israeli and diaspora Jews, have made similar complaints. "Beyond Chutzpah" goes into meticulous (obsessional?) detail pointing out the mistakes of fact and logic in the arguments of pro-Israel partisans, especially the odious Dershowitz.

This is not to say that F hasn't uttered the occasional foolish comparison or accusation, but these have been peripheral to his scholarly work. I understand that Guy Savoy farts in the kitchen from time to time, but his roast suckling lamb remains unparalleled. 

As for thecreator's (dude-find another screen name) shocking news falsh that CAMERA disapproves of Finkelstein, please check out the provided link. There you will find a) Morris' claim that F is a notorious distorter of fact, quite unsupported, and b) Morris' argument that Israel is not an apartheid state. i.e., Morris disagrees with F. (B) is an unremarkable difference of opinion between historians. (A) is interesting only if substantiated with examples-otherwise, it's exactly like saying, "Finkelstein is a poophead"-choleric, but without substance.  

If F had done nothing more in his life than decisively demolish Joan Peters' preposterous tsunami of untruths regarding the origin of the Palestinians, he would deserve our thanks.  

Some things, like the above post, are so ridiculous people just don't want to spend time analyzing every sentence, tracking down every source--I mean I did it with you Ismail, and then figured I need to be charging you a fee to call out your incessant lies. Just a week ago you were a great supporter of Morris until he posted here disagreeing with your characterization of his thought.

Now, he didn't mention you personally, but you were wrong, as always, on both the facts and the meaning.

Conveniently you forget there is an even larger 'denying the Holocaust industry', of which you are evidently a part. Color me surprised.

I am so pleased that Daniel has broken his long losing streak of articles with a winner, decrying baseless assumptions and denouncing known outrages such as the infamous Finkelstein.

I would really like this to begin a trend of more balanced opinion writing.

Congrats. 

 

Get a job and life, LOSER!  While you're at it get an education!  There has never been a Palestinian country, people, language or culture.  The Arab Fakestinians are immigrants from Arabia.  The orgins of the Fakestinians are the KGB and Arafat. You're a sick individual like all anti-semites.

"Just a week ago you were a great supporter of Morris until he posted here disagreeing with your characterization of his thought."

How sweet. You thought that Benny Morris himself took the time to post here. Did you notice that 1)"Benny" wasn't registered and that it could have been anyone posting under that name, and 2) the post was a simple cut and paste of a column Morris wrote for Newsweek a couple weeks back? This is why he "didn't mention me personally". Oh, and there's no Santa Claus.

More important, though, is your childish Manichean notion that I must be for Morris or against him. Just as Shockley's contributions to electronics are not diminished by his lunatic racial theories, nor Pauling's to chemistry by his nutty nutritional ideas, so too Morris' revelations re Israel's unsavory history are undimmed by his shameful racist prescriptions.

You'll recall my referring to the impossibility of deriving "ought" statements from "is" statements a week or two ago. Here we have an instructive example. Morris admits the historical fact of Zionist expulsion of Palestinians from their land, then goes on to more or less applaud that disgusting crime, regretful only that it wasn't more thoroughly performed.

So you see that my admiration for Morris' historical work co-exists quite nicely with my contempt for his ethical idiocy. This is called "appreciation of nuance" or "tolerance for ambiguity" or similar phrases. It is an operation usually achieved somewhere in late childhood or early adolescence. Sorry you missed the bus.

Please cite a single remark of mine which supports your "denying the holocaust industry" comment, or have the courtesy to apologize and ask forgiveness for your scurrilous calumnies, the uttering of which proves Finkelstein's point that partisans of right-wing Zionism relexively haul out the "holocaust denial" trope to smear their political opponents, with little regard for how, Gresham's Law-like, this cheap trick diminishes the actual suffering of holocaust victims. You should be ashamed.

Joanpetersistruth-

Love your new moniker. palestineisamyth was getting old.

note to naftali- that wasn't really Joan Peters who posted up there. Some crank using her name. And remember-there's no Santa. 

Oh, one more thing-

"The orgins of the Fakestinians are the KGB and Arafat."

This is absolutely false, as most students of history will affirm. In actual fact, the Palestinians first appeared emerging from that flying saucer in Roswell, NM.

Please adjust your tinfoil hat and await further instructions.  

Benjy, I mean Ismail, if you want to pick out a section of a post and then riff on that, you might as well pick out my semitic use of 'a, and, or the'. Anything is fodder for your mind.

As if you knew the Benny Morris post wasn't his--just above it I spoke of his recent quotes, and magically you didn't know them then, but you seem to know them now--but in a nuanced, patronizing, condescending kind of way. Although Stephen Schwartz wrote in here a few days earlier. And it's just as possible that Caroline Glick wrote here too. Of course, this is a very important issue you've latched onto. It shows not only your fabulous judgment, but it covers your complete ignorance of history--which is what Holocaust deniers share, a willful ignorance of history. Not to mention your inability to create an accurate analogy, or to accurately quote Morris.

You want to debate the post that appeared here, that both of us read--of which you both misquoted and missed the meaning? This is why it's impossible to debate you, who have perfected the art of calling a 'circle' a 'square'.

I understand the picture you have of my life on this side of the screen, me in my clown outfit and my room wallpapered with copies of your posts, all perfectly indexed and referenced. But that's not at all the way things are, because my toilet actually flushes, and I use your posts as Gd intended they be used.

But I always notice your tolerance for ambiguity. When Hamas and the PLO write that they want to destroy Israel--who knows what this language could possibly mean? I think it has something to do with puppies, don't you? You seem to draw a blank when it comes to these statements. And the vagueness of the rockets flying into Sderot. That could mean that those living in Gaza are demanding their civil right of owning French perfume, couldn't it? That's an action that baffles your septic tank steel trap of a mind. Maybe all of that nuance that BEGS THE QUESTION for you--where Israel and the Jews are always in the wrong, might tip the scales in the direction that you might find the fact of the Holocaust somewhat troubling, a la Pat Buchanan, or...Norman Finkelstein, who is, for you, a PR problem. What's troubling is that you don't even understand that last line, because in your mind Finkelstein is a PR problem, and only that.

No, the shame should fall on you the way that the mountain ledge falls on Wile E. Coyote.

 

Interesting that on Finkelstein's website, he asked his mommy (an alleged Holocaust survivor) whether she had done anything that she was now ashamed of (ie being a kapo). I guess Finkelstein was wondering whether being a kapo was an autosomal dominant gene that he inherited. Why does Finkelstein care so much about our recognition? He could head to Iran, immediately get tenure at Khomeini University, convert to Islam, collect some honorary degrees, and organize a followup conference to last years Holocaust denial conference. He could hobnob with the revisionist aristocracy, ie David Duke, Neturei Karta "rabbis" (only after appropriate hygenic measures have occurred), Noam Chomsky, Ernst Zundel, Ingrid Rimland, David Irving, Faurisson, Mustafa Tlas, etc

Naftali-

Simple choice-cite any remark of mine that suggests I deny the holocaust, or apologize for being the lying scumbag that you are.

Let me make it easier for you. Don't retract on my account; you may continue to hate me all you want. Do it because you really, truly do cheapen the pain of those who perished at the hands of the nazis by bleating out "holocaust denier" at those who find Israel's behavior blameworthy. 

Now, wipe those errant flecks of saliva from your chin and choose: evidence, or apology. 

What a bold and brave challenge to me, to somehow get into the server of Jewcy and go through your posts line by line.

I have a better idea. Why don't you make a simple unequivocal statement about your understanding, thoughts, and beliefs about the Holocaust and we'll start there. You see, there is a large Holocaust denial industry out there--which you neglected to mention as you mentioned the Jewish Holocaust Industry that goes about its business extorting money from those complicit in the Final Solution.

So we're waiting, not holding our breath mind you, for the clear, unambiguous Ismail statement about the Holocaust. Go ahead. Please include statistics. As in Yes, 6 million Jews died in a systematic, industrial technologized plot to rid the world of the Jewish people. And then talk about how wrong that is, and that any words agreeing with that sentiment, or hoping to bring about another one, are completely wrong with no redeeming value. And this German war machine was, at the time, the greatest evil the world had seen. Then move to the affiliation between the Nazi heirarchy and the Arab world in their desire to see the annihilation of the Jews.

Go ahead.

As per the condition I stated in my previous post, I will assume that, by not standing behind your baseless accusations with a shred of evidence, you are acknowledging your bottomless scumbaggery. Thank you for admitting what I already know. You have taken the first step towards rehabilitation.

Not content to simply dig your own grave, you now insist upon leaping in and pulling the pile of dirt down upon you. How? By standing on its head the long-established norm among the civilized that it is incumbent upon an accuser to ground his claim in evidence, not upon the accused to prove his innocence. Of course, this indifference to norms of justice comports well with the right-Zionist mindset, so at least you're consistent. 

Can you really be so shameless and/or stupid as to publicly worm out of justifying your McCarthyesque lies by asking for a recitation of my bona fides, as would be required of a defendant in Stalin's courts? Is your narcissism so profound that you think no one notices your desperation?  

What next?  Will you ask me if I've stopped beating my wife, you sleazy, duplicitous little carbuncle?

  

  

Speaking as an outsider, the hysterical reactions and over the top rantings of the anti-Finkelstein crowd ought to be an embarrassment to your entire Tribe. Frankly, if you consider how Allen Dershowitz responds to any criticism of himself or Israeli policy regarding the Palestinians, Finkelstein is, by comparison, the very picture of restraint and subtlety. Have any of you read the outrageous crap e-mailed to Finkelstein on a daily basis? He posts one and all on his website. If one were to judge the entire Tribe by those missives, one might think the idea of giving you all a state is utter madness.

Fortunately, intelligent people would understand that the most vocal idiots claiming to represent a group of what? Twenty or so million folks? don't represent them at all. Likewise, intelligent people would tend to judge Finkelstein and his detractors not on the heat of the rhetoric but rather on the light of the scholarship. In this regard, Finkelstein, under intense and hostile scrutiny, towers above his foes. You might want to give him a little credit for that and a little slack for mouthing off from time to time. At least Goldberg didn't have his career sabotaged and he isn't the target of an international lynch mob.

Not that any of you care what a goy thinks......

Shalom, baby.

Ismail is likely a representive of the Arab people, a once great society that led the world in science, literature and poetry, and had enlightened leadership while Europe was in the dark ages. Unfortunately, the only thing that distinguished Arab culture today is mindless violence. Under the guise of solidarity, murder of civilians (Algeria, Iraq, Syria) is ok as long as no unbelivers are participating, abuse of women is sanctioned, and child abuse and molestation are noble values. An Arab child today has less value than a disposable razor, because at least the razor can be reused, while an exploded child has no value. Until you clean up your mess, you have nothing to lecture Jews (or any other people with)

I hear the sounds of silence.  Actually, it's closer to rabid barking.  But still, language expert, no unequivocal statement--like it's the equivalent of drawing 6 pints of blood from your body.

I mean it is soooooo difficult to make an unequivocal statement against evil, isn't it?   How terrible that must feel.  

You are certainly a most peculiar man.

Building a Bridge Over Troubled Water.

If I may..

I took the liberty of running a query to find all posts made by people calling themselves "Ismail." There are 238. They can be viewed here, til something else distracts me and I replace that page with it.

Hmm. When I think back on all the crap that's said on Jewcy, it's a wonder I can think at all. 

Wow, "Ismail" must sit at the computer uploading Jewcy at every waking moment, only to write how the articles are all wrong and everyone else's opinion clearly does not matter to him. Must be fun. 

So for an hour or so on the web there was, like, zero porn?

Sorry, I'm a little confused. If the implication is that during the time it took me to put together that page I should've been looking at porn, then you are sadly mistaken.

I simply looked at porn while I was making the page.

Anyway, Ma'ayan you might think so, but sometimes I wonder if maybe he and I are the only sane people around here. And sometimes I have my doubts about me.

(For what it's worth, after a cursory glance at that page, I didn't see anything implying that Ismail denies the Holocaust.)

Thanks, Craig. I have no doubt whatsoever that you're entirely sane, though I wonder how you manage to remain so juggling us, the snarling pack of savages that is the Jewcy Commenter Corps.

Me? Still crazy after all these years. 

Aww come on Craig...I'm mildly sane. Though some have doubted my sanity upon leaving The Grande Apple for More Midwestern Ventures.

Oh, and in the time that this post has been up, Benny Morris has already changed his opinion and historical view three times over.

Goodness..reading some of the comments on here sometimes makes my kippah spin.

But if you can multi-task, good for you.

And for me, I can count on one finger all of the people I know who constantly hurl invectives at others--and I mean constantly. And I think I know which finger I'll use to make that count.

Regarding Ismail and his views on the Holocaust, just ask him, and don't forget to include all of the implications of the Holocaust. I asked him, and all I got was the usual thrown fruit he uses whenever he has to answer specific questions.

Maybe he's sane, but when he washes your windshield, don't tell him he missed a spot.