Is The Nerd Middle the Cure for Kiddie Sexism?

You shouldn't let him "peg ants with a squirt gun in the back yard"! Killing is for food or for defense, not for fun. And he doesn't need cooking class. And no, gender, is not just a limited mechanical thing, about siring, and gestating, young. While varied, it is a living thing, in every cell, for all of life. The children figure this out. Your task is to know some unvarnished, unpropaganda-ed realism, and, to enforce propriety - for both sexes. All this fussing about gender can be counter-productive. You do want grandchildren, don't you? You do want your son to take care of them and their mother, don't you? Excessive doctrinaire-ness is fatiguing, and leads on to silliness. Gender confusion in adulthood is seriously painful, so let's not horse around too much. People have a right to be what they are. Repeat that ten times, and do not try to make a gender-less world. It is likely to be a brutal one.

I'm just trying to teach him that girls can be friends as well as boys. The sex and reproduction will come. In the meantime, I'd like to expand the definition of what boys and girls can be. That's not gender confusion. That's an expansion of possibilities.

"People have a right to be what they are."-Anon above

How are children suppose to develop into who they are when their parents destroy their natural instincts by forcing them into gender specific roles.  People only realize who they are when they are able to explore all aspects of the growing up process, in a gender neutral way. 

Neal Pollack I really appreciate parents like you, who are open and willing to try raising their children in a gender neutral environment.  I have seen parents steer their children in the directions they believe society wants them to go towards, based off of the different activities they plan for their girls and their boys. Even when parents dress their girls in pink, or in dresses, all the time and their boys in only blue, black and green, this is another way that parents are shaping their gender stereotypes.  

I remember playing T-ball as a kid and when my friends and I were older we played baseball.  Every season the number of girls on the team trickled down and the league became predominately male.  At the age of 10 I was the only girl left and didn't notice until other parents brought it to my attention.  I soon joined all girls softball as a result of this.  It's ashame that I was influenced by this gender stereotype that boys play baseball and girls play softball at such an early age.

So where it is hard and at some point a parent has to make a conscious decision how they want to raise their children in terms of gender specific activities, I think the parents that find the balance without making clear distinctions between the genders visible to their children, are the most successful.   

I see your point that the kids are expected to sashay between extreme gender and no gender at all. Both are wrong. Extreme, meaning hyper Transformer macho muscles, then Teacher says everybody is the same and a female squirrel in a telling bubble can be a karate master. For the girls, it's drowning in pink tulle and looks-obsession, but oh PS you have to go to law school because the Mommy track is for dopes and losers. Make with the leather bustier and trash the boys. It is all too extreme and unnatural, so I agree with you. This is an interesting post and you have a point.

No, you CAN'T expand anything, so don't tinker! The children NEED to define, and separate, genders, so let them. Never, ever force this stuff. The girls of the same age have fifty times your son's capacities in every way, and the boys absolutely have to band together, and build forts, or they will be eaten alive. Let them! It WILL straighten out. Your son will model his life on yours, eventually. Please re-read the part about grandchildren. Worry about that. (Nicely.)

I don't have that much control over my son's life. He does what he wants with his friends at school. But I can't help it if I find most of his boy friends (and their culture) boring. I felt the same way about boys and boy culture when I was growing up, even though I love sports and superheroes like any good American boy.

Maayan, I agree, people go way too far with this all, over the place, and a balance is necessary. However, reality is reality, and it probably was time to get off that baseball team. Water is still wet, no matter what we think about it. After age 10, you were physically and psychically at risk, playing hardball with them. Have you been beaned by a hardball? Have you been shoved out of a dugout by raw male pre-legal feeling, when they wanted to talk among themselves? You seem to have turned out all right, right? It wasn't the end of the world. Nobody's saying you can't be a lawyer! (Your chances of being a lawyer are better than your chances of being a mother, but never mind.)

However, maybe you should have stayed until age 11. You are awfully innocent. I don't know if this is bad or good. I judge by RESULTS. Are you married? Doing the job? Kids? Show me results. Results are what counts. Are your parents grandparents? Neal Pollack, are you listening? Do you want grandchildren, Neal? Or do you want to sit around and sigh about not having them, like everybody else? The sighing about this, nationwide, could power a windfarm to light a city. Sigh, sigh, sigh. The hell with ludicrous, badly-drawn, helmeted squirrels, and popular culture in general. You pay money for this stuff?

The boy culture is boring? Neal, he's just a kid. It's time for him to be simple, and a little one-dimensional. Men are pretty simple, anyway, lifelong. It's G-d who is complicated and interesting. Get a religion, maybe. It would engage you both, and together. Orthodox Judaism is endlessly fascinating and challenging, and quite male, in a healthy way. Just a suggestion. But don't find your son irritatingly male and dull, or you will be pressuring him into becoming effeminate and interesting. That hurts, Neal. Careful. He's no duller than you. No offense.

This has nothing to do about whether or not I have grandchildren. I love my son, and if he has children I will love them as well, but propagating the species isn't my first priority. There are plenty of people around me who are taking care of that. I'm concerned about cultural roles, and popular culture matters in shaping them.

Also, Sandy Cheeks is awesome.  

And when I say I find boy culture boring, I mean some of their toys and TV shows. I don't mean their wrestling and fort-building. 

Are these dusty relics from your past...or did you buy the DVDs on Amazon?  Either way, Elijah is a lucky kid. 

Anyhoo, from my perspective, which, gosh, probably isn't All that different from Neal's, it's all about letting your kids be who they are, but also giving them options to explore.  Wrestling and cooking class?  Sounds good to me, if he enjoys them both.  I used to care for twin boys, aged 3.  One liked to wear a dress, arrange flowers, and play with my hair.  He also liked to fight dirty with his brother.  His parents let him do both (although they refereed the fighting).  I was impressed by their willingness to let their son express himself fully and naturally.

I have never seen Sandy "Cheeks" in action.Are you sure this material is clean? Family-friendly? I never trusted Wonder Woman, with her whip and tight costume. "Awesome"? As for grandchildren - it is just so far away, for you! Still, you have to force yourself to think. You are not raising a little boy! You are raising a man. This man happens, just for now, to be a little boy. You do, too, want your son to do .... what you did. Have a kid. Why shouldn't he have what you have? Well, he won't, unless you work on it. Now how about that. That's the modern world. Do you want "Cheeks" for a daughter-in-law? My guess is no.

Make your values plain, now that he is still listening. His ears will close in a very, very few years, so get it all in, now.

This article really struck a chord with me. As a full time nerd for as long as I can remember, my more feminine attributes were never subject to ridicule by my more boorish classmates. Rather, they found cause to tease me endlessly because I spent recess reading People are still hopeless at noticing that I'm gay to this day. Instead, they immediately peg me for the average (straight) philosophy studying, equilibrium equation loving, obscure word knowing college student. Nerdiness does seem to trump gender and sexuality in the eyes of others, at least in my experience.

I think Anonymous's concern for your future progeny is rooted in homophobia, don't you?  He/She is really saying that if  you let your kid plays with girls and choreograph production numbers that he will turn out gay!

 Which, of course, knowing you, is absolutely fine.

It breaks my heart to see the gender divide happening in my older son's 2nd grade class as well.  He gets along with girls better than boys, mainly because he is a gentle and highly verbal kid.  But now that The Pink has taken hold of the girls, their birthday parties are playdates are gender segregated.

But Helen, how did they actually turn out? It's the results that count, not your philosophic approval. Fighting dirty is not manly! Neither is wearing a dress. Is this guy ok? Maybe he hated his brother because for the brother, things were working out more smoothly. Poor little kids. I hope they are all right, now. Probably are. Must have faith.

If the parents wanted to have a boy and girl, and therefore made one of the two boys into a girl, psychically and unconsciously, that is a serious no-no against "letting people be themselves", don't you think? Major ouch. Major. Oy.

There absolutely IS a right to be a masculine man who READS! Yes yes! If he reads Talmud, it is the best, he is a safe guy. We hope. In theory. But yes, a guy who reads during recess should not have to be gay. If he wants that, that's his taste, but there WAS a time when there was such a thing as a married, brave, CULTURED man who knew Latin and some Greek, and who could draw - and waltz. We need that again. But that was before TV. What would we do without Cheeks the Squirrel.

Parents cannot "make" a boy into a girl or vice-versa. They can only expose their child to various cultural influences and see what takes hold. And yes, Helen, The Electric Company is available on DVD.

...because that is one serious stretch. The boys in question are all of 6 now, and yes, they're fine, and no, for Pete's sake, their parents weren't "making one of them into a girl." They were letting them be themselves. If they want to have a "Pirate" birthday party, they have a "Pirate" birthday party. If they want to play "Princess," that's fine, too. Nothing is forced on them, and nothing that's harmless is denied due to "gender roles."

Have you ever spent extensive time with little boys? While yes, there are exceptions to the rule, a lot of them like to play pretty hard--wrestling, launching themselves off of and into things, and just generally colliding with one another. What was noteworthy was that the parents of these two let the boys run around as needed, wrestle intensely...and play dress up however the heck they wanted to.

Helen, if you say it's turning out well, fine. But being a man is not as easy as you think, nor as natural, and it would be nice if the parents troubled themselves to do the hard work of teaching it. Sometimes laissez-faire is mere laziness, or ideological self-indulgence. But good luck to your friends, and may all be well.

No, you can't mold children like clay. However you can certainly support one aspect, and downplay another, and messages and nurture obviously count. This whole post is about what messages to give children! So messages must matter, no? There is so much nonsense abroad now, that raising children must be very difficult in this weird climate, and I sympathise extremely. Thank you for doing it at all!

I agree with the geeky middle! I just don't relate to a violent, helmeted, supposedly emphatically female squirrel with spread legs and a stupid expression. Violence isn't cute. I wouldn't want it for a daughter-in-law, and neither would you. (But at least its middle is covered!)

PS - teaching girls they can go one-on-one and win, in a fight with a male, will get them killed one day, OK? Life is not a cartoon. Mrs. Peel, what did you start?

Just as long as we can all agree that having grandkids is the only benchmark for success in life and Ma'ayan has no say in anything because she's not yet married.

Having grandkids has a tendency to matter when the age to have them is reached.  It's a normal life stage. You will reach it, too. There is no escape. Grandpuppies will not do. Fear it.

As for Ma'ayan, she has a right to her opinion, and to her youth. Still, there is no substitute for experience, and that, itself, is not known before experience, and has to be taken on faith. Ma'ayan calls for balance with structure. Fine. She says gender is  socially-imposed artificiality that children should be spared. Laughable. Not her fault! The whole Frankfurt School sold Socialism under that label for fifty years so even  intelligent people now think it is the only nice way to think. But the children know better. I agree with Neal - less pink tulle and bulging robot muscles, more good clean fun. But the girls can play house under the table, and not invite the boys. And the boys can have their own cave under the piano, and not invite the girls.

Anonymous, I have kids. Two, a boy and a girl. And yet I totally agree with Neal. The nerd is a safe space for kids away from the prisons that gender have become in North America.

My 7 year-old boy likes Transformers, Bionicles, Neoshifters, and cartoons where things explode and the bad guys are caught in the end. But he also likes things that some people count as "feminine": imaginative play, dancing, singing, art and beautiful things, reading. He enjoys running around with the boys in his class and gym class but he also can spend a recess playing with girls, if they are playing something generic like supermarket or house (fairy princess is too much for him). I have never worried about whether or not I would get grandchildren from this kid, even when he wore a dress as a little kid in day care during dress-up hour. Why? Well, the first reason is because I am not terrified of him being gay, because I don't believe it's a bad thing to be. The second reason is because our culture's current ideas of gender are so freakin' rigid that I can't agree with them, and I don't think our masculine ideal encourages men to become parents.

My husband has been told by a few people that they thought he was gay, because he doesn't like sports, he loves to hang out with people and cook for them, and he has female friends. Just tonight my cousin's husband was over with their new baby (she was at home recovering from dental surgery), and my sister remarked that he was so good with the baby that it made him seem effeminate! So it seems like the masculine ideal in this culture only loves sports or other specific activities, is anti-social, cannot cook or otherwise take care of himself, cannot be comfortable around women, and is a lousy parent.

Well, that kind of man, frankly, sounds like an asshole, hopefully the kind that is such a jerk no woman would ever want to procreate with him. I really hope my son won't grow up to emulate that idea of masculinity.

We agree. Yes, we need the return of honest, simple thinkers, on both side of the gender divide. We need cultured men who read books without apology. We need young girls who read books without apology. I completely agree that all these bulging robot muscles for boys, and pink this, pink that, pink room, pink life, pink brain, tarted up cartoon characters, who are violent with males, that is all excessive. Of course a man should be involved with his kids, in any way the family find convenient. "Nerd" is just a stupid modern term for someone who thinks. Long live nerds! Gender differences are real. But they should be regarded calmly, as facts of life, not as evils, or as prisons.

(You go a little far for me, and you know where. But we agree about much more than we disagree about. Have a good time, and lots of adorable grandchildren. Sounds like you will.)

You want normalcy, but expanded normalcy. I am not sure you can have that. But down with popular culture, absolutely. And of course a man can change a diaper, and still be a man. That's between him and his wife, not the Central Committee, for crying out loud. I am grateful for the normal sound of your voice. There is so much dogmatism. I am old enough to remember the nonsense of social engineering, way back, way back. Common sense and decency are going to have to be reasserted. If that's a little right wing, well, be careful not to go to far, but, so what.

I suppose you will be thinking about the Hannah Montana flap. This is the kind of thing that makes for people leave the building. Home schooling, far-right religion, stuff like that. Chasidism. Or anyway, Modern Orthodoxy. Single-sex schools. No TV, or not much. Isolation! Oy! Well, if it's between isolation and insanity, the choice makes itself. Insanity is not acceptable, and sanity is not negotiable. Now what are you going to do, young parents? Poor things.

I have watched Hannah Montana. It is not overtly sexual, but the get-ups of the girls are extremely decorative, with a dingaling "jewelry" gizmo hanging from every ear, every wrist, painted fingertip, no square inch left undecorated. The effect is tarty. Sexual. It is TOO. You need somebody to draw you a picture? Well Vanity Fair just has. The Amish look better, in their cute little simple dresses. You may have to (horrors!) REBEL and create some kind of Urban Non Yuck Zone (UNYZ)which is either MO or Amish tinged. Where it is safe to be a little girl. Or a little boy. Or little at all. Where is the Weird Non-Elite Parents Association when you need them? (WNEPA)

Or maybe we should just send them to the spinning mills and be done with it. Forget childhood. Consume, kid. You're just an economic animal.

About children and gender, this might interest - it's a discussion of the missing men in non-Orthodox Judaism. They just don't seem to be staying. There is an "alternadad" issue somewhere in here,

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/print/20080507Gender2.html