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Rabbinical School Is Ruining My Love Life
By Jordie Gerson / July 30, 2007
Rabbi Eliezer says, "Whoever teaches his daughter Torah teaches her lasciviousness.”—BT Sotah 20a
“So,” he says in a low, soft voice, leaning across the table. “Tell me, what does Judaism say about sex?” “Be fruitful and multiply,” I say flatly, and start laughing. “What does that mean?” he asks. “It means that the Torah and the rabbis thought sex was a good thing. None of that abstinence and celibacy for them—that’s Christian. No ascetism, no celibacy. Judaism’s not really into celibacy. It thinks sex is natural, and beautiful, and sacred. Or that it should be anyway. There’s no guilt attached to it, really.” “No guilt?” This makes him happy. “Yeah.” I say, “Which is great. But then there’s that clause. The one that says that once you sleep with someone, you’re supposed to keep them.” 
“For how long?” he asks. He’s a law student. He knows about clauses. “Life.” I say, raising my eyebrows and shrugging. “What do you think?” he asks. I grin. “Remains to be seen,” I say, and return to my sushi. Over the last three years, I have had this conversation on at least five different dates with five different men—all of them Jewish. Before rabbinical school, and before divinity school, my dates didn’t ask me about sex. But ever since I became “Jordie-the-almost-rabbi,” the men I’ve dated have been intensely curious about my sexuality and what Judaism does (or doesn’t) bring to bear on it. I’ve become—without my desire—a one-woman sexual ethics committee. Dating never starts this way. It starts at a party, or a lecture, or a meeting. I meet someone new, I turn on my Jew-dar, we make small talk, he asks me what I study. I say religion. He says, “Oh really? What religion?” I say, “Christianity and Islam,” hoping to prolong the inevitable, and then I feel guilty and say more softly, “and Judaism.” If he’s obnoxious or pretentious, or if he has a sense of humor, I’ll add, “Circumcision and smiting, too.” “What do you want to do with your degree in religion?” he asks. “Become a rabbi,” I say. If I like him, or think that I might, I’ll do whatever it takes not to tell him that. “Oh,” he says, and goes quiet. He’s now picturing the rabbi at his home synagogue, comparing me to the bald guy with a gut who dresses up as a baseball player every Purim. “That’s intense,” he says. The R-bomb, it’s fail proof. It always shuts them up. If he thinks I’m cute enough, if he’s not getting bible-beater vibes, he’ll continue, and then he’ll ask me out. Nothing like going out with the guys for a beer and telling them you’re dating a rabbi. A cute one, he’ll add. In tight jeans.
The eroticization of this profession is stunning. He’ll call me up from work and whisper, “Hey, Rabbi Gerson.” Flinching, I’ll look around for my father, Rabbi Gerson the first. The mystique of this profession turns him on. He thinks it’ll be like being in bed with God. He wonders if I’ll speak to him in Hebrew. But far worse—and more common—are the men who fall for me but won’t touch me. For many Jewish men in their 20s, you can’t just date a rabbi. You have to be serious about her. This Madonna-whore complex has wreaked utter havoc on my dating life, and produced more conversations with the word ‘marriage’ in it than I want to recall. (“Marriage?!” I want to say, “Are you crazy? I just want to date you, for God’s sake. Just relax!”). But too many Jewish men think that they have to be serious—on-the-road-to-marriage serious—to even casually date me.
Even now, I’m still trying to figure out what serious means to these men, but I think it’s mixed up with the possibilities of what could happen when something as messy and complex as sex and sexuality becomes mixed up with God and what we hold most sacred. Sometimes I feel like the enormous ambivalence evoked by the meeting of divinity and sexuality is an ambivalence I provoke in the men that I date, and the repercussions of this have complicated or ended relationships that in any other universe would have been just great. There’s nothing as frustrating as dating a great guy who adores you but is afraid to touch you because he’s worried that he’ll incur the wrath of God. (Or be smote. Be careful when and with whom you joke about smiting.)
The bottom line is this: too many of the men I date make significant assumptions about me without getting to know me first. They assume I’m Shomer Negiah (I'm not), they assume I'm strictly Shomer Shabbat (I’m not), and they assume that my commitment to a lifetime of Jewish leadership makes me—or should make me—a Puritan. If I’m comfortable with my sexuality, they’re shocked. If I wear a low-cut shirt, they’re scandalized.
I’ve had my share of flings since graduating from college. Almost all of them—before rabbinical school—were with non-Jewish men. My relationships? With Jewish men exclusively. Believe me when I tell you I didn’t plan it this way, nor did I intend, for better or worse, for this to be the case. We don’t fall in love with people, even if our mothers would like it, because of the religion they were born into.
But the non-Jews, they knew better. They knew that in my world they were not welcome, at least not for long. Well, by me, maybe, they’d be welcome. But not by the places I was going, and in the communities I would someday lead. Non-Jewish men assumed our relationship couldn’t become serious—and after the Jewish men who put me in the serious category automatically, this was an enormous relief. Ask first, I say. Because you don’t know.
Dating as a rabbinical student has made courtship—an ordinarily fraught, and occasionally painful endeavor—that much harder. It’s hard to ask men to see me as a woman first and clergy second. It’s hard to explain that I want to leave the baggage and blessings of my work at home (or at synagogue) when I’m on a date. And sometimes, as anyone who’s ever dated in New York City knows, it’s just hard. By being enough of a feminist to train for the rabbinate, I’ve unintentionally saddled myself with age-old gender stereotypes, issues that the majority of women my age don’t have to address anymore. Questions about how to talk about my career—or whether to talk about it all—and issues surrounding how I dress, whom I date, and what I do on those dates crop up in ways that “Free To Be You and Me” never warned me about. The problem is this: I’m not willing to give any of this up. Not my sexuality, not my spirituality, not my Judaism, and not my career. I want it all. And as a third-wave feminist, I want to believe that I can have it. I expect it. So mah la’asot? What to do? For the moment, I’m working on kicking the “rabbi” word out of the room on dates. My title doesn’t belong on a date. It doesn’t belong between me and my lover. So these days, I’m looking for a man who can ignore it, or at least realize that this word is not me, that I am more than the sum of its parts. Then, I hope, he can get to know me as me and not as the role I will someday have.
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Oh, something else that perturbs me: you say
"The bottom line is this: too many of the men I date make significant assumptions about me without getting to know me first. They assume I’m Shomer Negiah (I’m not), they assume I’m strictly Shomer Shabbat (I’m not), and they assume that my commitment to a lifetime of Jewish leadership makes me—or should make me—a Puritan. If I’m comfortable with my sexuality, they’re shocked. If I wear a low-cut shirt, they’re scandalized."
What bothers me is that these individuals expect more out of their rabbis than they expect out of themselves. Now, certainly, most rabbis will tend to be more learned and more pious than the laypeople, but it ought to be but a question of degree. Similarly, a PhD in physics will know more than an MSc in physics, but for both of them, physics is physics. Traditionally, the rabbis were but the most accomplished of the laity. As Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits puts it (Judaism: Fossil or Ferment?), the laity followed the Pharisees rather than the Saduccees because the Pharisees themselves were laymen.
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch, in 19th century Germany, notes how many parents were scandalized by the notion of their children getting Talmudic education. "What, are you going to a theologian?" Traditionally, every Jew – okay, maybe not the women, but who says everything was perfect back then? – received a traditional education. Obviously, intellectual ability and the need for livelihood meant some had to curtail their educations before others, and so some learned only Tanakh while others learned Mishnah as well while others ascended to the vaunted level of Gemara, but in any case, Jewish education was meant for the masses. Among the objects in the YIVO Holocaust collection is a book stamped, "The Society for the Study of Mishnah by the Woodchoppers of Berdichev".
In fact, as Rabbi Dr. Isidore Epstein notes in his book The Responsa of Rabbi Solomon ben Adreth [Rashba] of Barcelona, 1235-1310, as a source of the history of Spain, the Spanish rabbis used to associate with the laity in their everyday lives, such as by drawing water out the wells. Rabbi Dr. Marc Angel, in his The Rhythms of Jewish Living: A Sephardic Approach, notes that this indicates that the rabbis were one with the people, not in a class apart. Rabbi Marc Angel’s son, Rabbi Hayim Angel, once on his pulpit told a story about his father: a woman called up on the phone and pleaded, "Rabbi, my sink is broken!" Rabbi Marc Angel replied, "Yes, but…why are you calling me?" She, confused, sputtered, "But…but…but…aren’t you a Sephardi rabbi?" Perhaps this woman’s expectation was a bit extreme, but we can learn a lot from the fact that she honestly believed the rabbi ought to be the plumber as well.
(Similarly, Rabbi Benzion Uziel, the late Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, used to entertain *every* guest who came to his home, at any time, for any reason, without appointment. Someone protested; surely the rabbi had more important things to do! Rabbi Uziel replied that as the Chief Rabbi, the people were inspired and uplifted by the fact that the Chief Rabbi – of all people! – met with them personally. Sometimes, he said, a person had no real question to ask him, but just wanted to have the experience of meeting the Chief Rabbi and knowing that he would entertain them as long as they were present in his home. Asked Rabbi Uziel, should he deprive the people of this enjoyment? I am also reminded of how children used to come into Rabbi S. R. Hirsch’s office to show off the beetles they had caught. The adults were terrified of Rabbi Hirsch, but the children adored him, and he adored them in turn. How I’d love to be a fly on that wall, and see how Rabbi Hirsch regaled them with the meaning of that beetle in G-d’s world!)
Obviously the rabbis will tend to know more, and knowing more tends to make one more pious. But it is all a question of degree. This notion of the rabbi being in a class of his own is a distinctively modern notion. Traditionally, in fact, the rabbis did not even receive wages for their labor! In the Talmud, we find the rabbis earning their livings as carpenters, merchants, blacksmiths, etc. There is a story in Tractate Eduyot of a perplexing halakhic question that no one knew the answer to. Suddenly, a layman who worked at the dung gate (!) came and offered his tradition on the matter, and his testimony was accepted, whereas none of the rabbis present had known the answer. Maimonides, for his part, codifies a prohibition for a rabbi to earn a living via his rabbinical tasks. Not long after Maimonides, many rabbis protested this strict ruling, arguing that a rabbi may receive wages for the time he spent serving the community, since he could have instead used that same time to engage in practical labor, but we at least see what the ideal is.
Thus, the notion of rabbinical office in the first place is an innovation. But if we are forced by necessity to have rabbinical offices with wages, we should at least remember that ideally, the rabbi is but an erudite and accomplished layman. Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits in Towards Historic Judaism notes that in traditional communities, the rabbi was revered not for his office, but for his learning. He did not receive respect due to his title, but rather, he received respect by virtue of his accomplishments and scholarship. He was the most distinguished among laymen, and the difference between him and his congregates was a difference of degree, not kind.
So pray tell, why do these men expect out of you (Jordie) that which they do not expect out of themselves? This truly stymies me. Is this some sort of vicarious fulfillment of Judaism? Jesus fulfilled the law for his flock, and the rabbi so too does for his (or hers)? If this is where we have come to, G-d save us.
First, as soon as you discuss sexuality, I cannot help but insert a reference to Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits’s "A Jewish Sexual Ethics", in his Crisis and Faith, and reprinted in Essential Essays on Judaism (ed. Hazony, Shalem Press). I simply love to reference this essay.
With that said, I’m reminded of something I once wrote. At http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/05/modern-womens-torah-commentary.html, I say, inter alia: "As for the book The Women’s Torah Commentary: this also rather discomfits me. I don’t want to see women especially writing books, women especially occupying pulpits; I want it to be so obvious that women may do these things, that no one even thinks of remarking on it. A woman writing a book of Torah commentary ought to be no different than a man doing the same; a woman occupying a pulpit ought to be no different than a man doing the same. As long as we notice the fact that it’s a woman and not a man doing the given task, as long as we celebrate the fact, it shows we haven’t accomplished our task. It ought to be superfluous and banal to title a book The Women’s Torah Commentary."
(I’m Orthodox, but as Tosafot, Rabbi Haim David Azulai (Hida), Sefer haHinuch, and Rabbi Benzion Uziel all long ago showed, there are NO objections in halakhah to women being rabbis. None. Zilch. Nada. Zero. I can elaborate upon request. Hmm…I don’t think I’ve blogged on this yet; my desideratum alarm is flaring!)
Now, as for your difficulties in sexuality vis a vis your training to be a rabbi: I’m sorry, but I’m somehow unable to sympathize. You say you want to leave your being a rabbi(-to-be) at the door, and not let it interfere with your romantic relationships, but, to be honest, I cannot comprehend this. Personally, every aspect of my being is on the table when I date; I think there’s nary an aspect of myself that is not somehow relevant. How could my particular religious affiliation and practices and beliefs not be relevant to my prospective mate? Everything there is to say about me, I wear proudly on my sleave, as it is all essential to who I am.
I’m also unable to identify with your particular dating conundrum for another reason: I was raised traditional, and now I’m a downright ultra-conservatist hardline Orthodox fundamentalist, so I simply cannot imagine a purpose to dating other than for marriage. If a woman assumed that by me that any relationship had to be "serious", she’d be right on target in her assumptions. So, unfortunately, I’m unable to identify with your precise predicament.
But there IS one thing you say that I have a very strong opinion about. I may not be able to symphathize with you about leaving your career at the doorpost, or with stam dating without marital expectations, but there IS one thing I identify with in what you say:
With the men you are dating, what upsets me is that they are perturbed or disturbed or discomfited (or what have you) by a female rabbinical student. The fact that there is a difference for them between males and females vis a vis semiha is deeply disappointing.
Interesting women get dates. I cant read all these comments (not that i dont have time, but they seem like a waste of my time, as my comment would be for most other people) :) but men want to touch an interesting women EVEN if they have on a suit of armor, and an attractive women EVEN if she is in a coma. Men, and for the matter women, aren't that hard to figure out. I always tell my friends who have difficulty in social relationships, the secret to have someone being interested in you is just be Good looking!! or if you cant do that, be Rich! and if you cant do that at least be interesting! and if they are still not interested, you have a bigger problem, you are out of touch with reality, or worse in denial, and surrounding yourself with people who don't care about you and prefer to tell you sweet lies to try to keep you wallowing in the muck with them.
I thought what I wanted to say would be off topic, but I think redirecting the discussion somewhat back to gender is in order once we start bickering about names. The only thing I'll say about that is that BT, you seem like true lady, meanwhile, Jordie seems like a true women, and I claim to be one as well. I implore everyone to consider the distinctions we make concerning gender and gender roles with our usage of language.
I would like to thank Nikki for bringing up adoption, finally, as a response towards readers thoughts concerning Jordie's reproductive abilities, goals and how they co-exist with her carrer goals. The writer who said that women are geared towards motherhood is absolutely right, we, generally, are inclined to nurture, and in no way do I see Jordie's desire to be a Rabbi impeding her chances to nurture. In fact by wanting to become a Rabbi, and nurture a community, she is not only fulfilling the Jewish expectation to contribute to society, (which adoption also does) but fulfilling her own desire to be a woman. I'm sure her experiences as a Rabbi will only make her a wiser mother, whether she decides to become one singly, with a partner, give birth or adopt. She's already aware of the societal impulses around her and how they may affect her future. I wish the best in her current and future relationships.
We don’t have to be cute. We are dignified. Shorter names are certainly OK too, but that’s her real name. Is she saving it for good? Today is the time.
“Jordana”? Get real. Let’s call all Beths “Elizabeth” and every Wendy can be “Gwendolyn.”
Jordie should call herself Jordana in the future. Phase in “Jordana” and phase out “Jordie”, a little-girl name. At 30, she’s no girlie and it’s woman time. It’s her real name! Also, if practicable and convenient, contact lenses. And, a thin, bright, long dangle earring, in gold. Unless she’s kidding about this love-life thing.
Hi Lys,
Thanks for your note – I haven't read Carnal Israel, but it looks like I should! Thanks for the recommendation!
Jordie
…I just wanted to register how much I enjoyed this article, Jordie, especially as it addresses lots of issues in which I'm interested. This is a book I'm always touting, but I'm wondering if you've read Carnal Israel, by Daniel Boyarin? I may have read it for my masters dissertation, but nonetheless really enjoyed it…
Hey there!
It was fun to see my t-shirt in this great article! Yay for free advertising :) I appreciated the inclusion of the shirt and the article – it was all well said.
I just wanted to put it out there that if anyone is interested in buying a shirt (and spreading the message that rabbis are great people for marrying too!), I’m collecting orders to have them printed again. They will cost $15 a piece plus $6 for shipping. They come in men’s sizes S, M, L, XL, and XXL – and they tend to run a bit large. Email me at racheariel@gmail.com for more info or to order.
Good luck with your rabbinate, dating-life and everything else you do, Jordie,
Rachel :)
I focused on the POSITIVE.
NOT what a rabbi is or isn’t. NOT what a woman shouldn’t do, or be. But what SHOULD a young Jewish woman do?
And what are her deadlines for doing it, if any?
And who cares?
Are there any realities that impact all young Jewish women, whether aspiring rabbis or not?
If there are, how do they impact this particular ambitious person, who is pretty typical of her time, and class, even if her choice of career is a little unusual. Jordie herself brought up her love-life. It is not off-topic to discuss its consequences, and lack of consequences, and how she is structuring it. I questioned her assumptions. So?
Her sister remarked on exactly this issue, the issue of having children. She didn’t think she was going to get any of her own, but she still felt it was worth talking about!
As for the sister, I could remark that a smooth river stone is as nice as a faceted diamond, just in a different way, and that there is no need to acquire smoothnesss by marrying it, when you already possess your own smoothness. There is no need to feel less dazzling than a very special sister. You can buy a mirror with your own money, and see your own beauty in it, because it is your very own mirror, and reflects no one else.
Thank you for letting me express my views and a happy New Year to this most impressive family, and to all.
Well, not completely, Nik. There is also, for instance, an interesting subthread on the role of rabbis and how they are perceived. I would never have imagined that someone who is learning to be a rabbi could ever be someone who did used electricity on the Sabbath, or would dream of touching a man who was not her husband, or would listen to music and dance in mixed company — or, for that matter, be a woman. That is because I did not grow up with these ideas. They were not available to me.
It is true that most American Jews identify with the Reform and the Conservative streams, for which all the above are apparently more readily familiar archetypes (I am not from the U.S. and have never lived there). But it is hard for me to believe that it would be so common among Jewish men to believe that a woman, who is studying to be a rabbi, should so readily embrace such secular beliefs as casual dating and non-kosher food and even sex before marriage. That is, I think, an important component of the reactions that the author describes.
Perhaps rabbis, and prospective rabbis, are not who a lot of us think they are. I think the author has put her finger on an issue that the Reform movement should address. Reform rabbis are not, quite simply, what many people stereotype as rabbis. It would be good to make this better known, because many secular people might more readily identify with, and better relate to, rabbis as a result.
I think you are the one who is confused. I AM a woman and I am MARRIED to a woman. Your first sentence is completely oxymoronic. This as with the rest of your comments make no sense. I did not say or advocate any of which you give me credit for. As with Jordie’s initial post, you are reading way too much into what I am saying, not to mention appointing yourself [and everyone else] the god-given advisor to Jordie’s and my life. Short of needing to brush up on my education, I am fully aware that you called me an idiot. So much for the non-judgementalism you thought I was spouting. Also, as you brush up on your chivalry [so much for thinking women are so special], feel free to review my posts, which simply say that you are all making a way too a religious, social and political brewhaha over a poor girl’s post about not being able to date comfortably [a situation which, for the time-being it seems, has been somewhat rectified]. This has become a blog of mainly intolerant people telling her, her family and anyone that disagrees that we don’t know anything and that, despite all of our education, we are ignorant and stupid [yes there IS a difference]. I’ll be sure to tell the proper institutions that, as my education was clearly such a waste of time and money, I will not be continuing the payments on my student loans. As this whole thread has gotten so completely off track and personal [oh I am sure you don't mean it to be], I will draw the curtain of charity on this sad scene and refrain from future posts. I would wager this sort of conversation isn’t what Jordie intended. Regards, Nik
Nik
I am confused. You are not a woman but you discuss your wife. I won’t draw the obvious conclusion but will let you state the obvious or otherwise clarify if you so choose. The non-judgementalism you champion is actually the heart and soul of western liberal thought. Live and let live. To each their own. Certainly withtin certain parameters there is something to those cliches. Organized religion, however, by definition does not generally subscribe to those attitudes. Religion is comprised of a set of laws as well as beliefs which lend a philosophical underpinning to those laws. If you don’t adhere to those laws and beliefs your not practicing that religion.
Those of us who actively practice Judaism and attempt to adhere to those laws and beliefs don’t need Jordy to write a book to figure out where she stands. Neither are we threatened in any way by her lifestyle. Amused perhaps, or maybe saddened, but certainly not threatened.
We comment because we believe and because we care. You would like us to leave Jordy alone and not question her outlook and attitude on religion and motherhood. At risk of being accused by you of being paternalistic, it sounds awfully like the teenager telling his/her parents to let them do what they want and not look out for their welfare. Well no good parent will hearken to such a request by a child. Neither would a fellow Jew allow these issues to be ignored.
Yes this is very much a family squabble where people who care about each other get involved and in each others face how they feel about each others conduct. That’s certainly the Jewish way of doing things. Sorry if you can’t understand that. Maybe you should brush up on some of those comparitive religion classes or otherwise not get involved with issues you know very little about. As they say in Jewish, its no Mitzvah to have your hand in every pot.
Sorry, I thought you were a man.
I am a mother and a grandmother.
Your ideas are very good. But I am not sure what you are mentioning applies to the Gershons. Not that everything has to apply to the Gershons – but this is their thread. Thanks for your kind words.
Nik, I mean no personal offense at all, you are just parroting the party line hear everywhere, but let me just get something off my chest. You are an innocent bystander – but I need to say this: there is something suspect about men – present company excepted – who cheer and clap that a pretty, smart young woman is not carrying that tiresome old banner of demanding committment and child support. It is just too much in his interest.
May I remark that every form of contraception has a failure rate, no matter how small? That abortions can damage future fertility, if there is an unintended uterine adhesion caused by the scraping? That Hep C and herpes are out there? That rubber is not steel, and has holes in it sometimes? That people’s feelings are not the same as their cats’?
But I was really addressing the cultural difficulties, not the physical ones.
By the way, when you have a kid at 40, you will have a 20 year old at 60. You will be 70, when he or she is a mere 30. Well, maybe you won’t need a cane, or some help, at the wedding. There are active 70 year olds.
The news is unforgiving: childbearing is baseball, not golf. It is a young, or youngish, person’s game.
What’s better, to have kids a little early with the problems that come with that, or risk having none at all? Sometimes you have to decide which of two risks is worse.
Your assumptions have gotten in your way again. I am a 36 year old WOMAN. Nik is short for Nikki [no, not Nicole]. While you may indeed mean well [and I've no doubt you do], you are still transferring YOUR pain onto others. What makes you so certain that your pain and trauma at not being able to [or being too old to] have children will be visited on another woman? Many, many women, myself included, do not have children, for varying reasons. I have no pain or trauma over this fact. I have many goals in my life, bringing a child into what world we have created, was once one of them. Then I realized I was too selfish and the world too mean and overpopulated to burden both with yet another existence. I am an advocate of adoption as a way to fulfill the lives of women and men who have not or may not be able to have had children physically and, the faith issue notwithstanding, I feel it can be just as rewarding and fulfilling as a biological child. I am adopted, my wife was adopted, as were both of our siblings. Our families are as close as any other and we were all spared a horrible life that was created by our biological parents bringing us into this world too young and unprepared. There is ALWAYS time to be a parent or grandparent, even if the physiology and biological clock fails us, there are millions of children who need good homes and a lot of love and learning. Have you ever considered participating in a Big Brothers/Sisters or Grandparents Organization? Considered fostering or adopting? There are so many more ways to achieve the goal of parenthood without necessarily having a child. We should all focus less on what we don’t have or haven’t done and look at what we do have and what we still can do. It’s never too late to be what you might have been! Even God graced many elderly men and women with children in the Torah. Some by birth, some by gift. Do I think you’re a meanie? No, my friend. Mine is not to judge. I do not know you and would never make that assumption! I wish you and yours all the best! Kindest Regards, Nik
I never meant anything negative about Jordie or her family.
I lit into a mind-set that “young women have plennnnnty of time”.
I am aware the streets are chock full of thirty-ish women who find themselves not getting the wife / mother thing, when they finally decide they want it. Their window is very small. At 35, fertility falls off hard. I am aware of the problems of getting that complicated culture, wife / mother, going, after a decade of living another way entirely. Nobody seems to notice this.
The pain of the child-less and the grand-child-less is what I was talking about, and the nonsense that leads to this dreadful pain. I mean the Gershons no harm or disrespect. It may be none of my business, but I was just trying to spare them the usual fate. Let them look around. HOW many of their friends’ charming daughters are obviously going to die childless? You know, the ones who are 38 and not in a “relationship,” or married? Just how OK is that? Nik, can you feel that? You are a guy. You are not that old.
PS Careful, Nik. As your age-mates age, your time runs out too. How many older guys marry women six years younger than themselves? Few. YOU TOO may wail, later. I only mean everybody well!
We are all so casual about this child-having thing. We have been told it comes along, magically, when it is ready. That, after years of being free, and rather casual, we will suddenly turn into wise, committed spouses and parents.
But, those are skill-sets that need to be developed continuously and practiced pretty early. Otherwise, both the mind and the body find it just too hard.
You think I am a meanie? I just don’t want people to be sad later. I mean well, OK?
I just spent an hour reading this article and the posts. From an outsider’s point of view, I’d like to extend a few small observations. First, I commend an amazing young woman who wrote an open, honest article on the difficulties of finding a person with whom to share a sex life while studying and plotting her future. Many of us, both men and women, share this base difficulty without adding your future occupation into the mix! It would take days to respond to every single one, so please forgive the general nature of my responses. Most of you folks need to lighten up! Some of you have attacked her and her Beliefs [yes with a capital B] by assuming you know her and her family and their Beliefs based on the small window she allowed us to peer in. Wait for the book to come out and maybe she will actually DISCUSS her Beliefs and then you can feel free to attack them, which would seem to be your goal in the first place. In addition, some of you need to join the 21st Century. “Women should be educated….marry…and have children….work part time from home?” Where the heck does the Torah teach that? Again, I am simply an outsider who spent a couple years studying Theology at University and I do not recall this being the way of Jewish thinking. Or perhaps is it the “Seeing women as special and better even than men” that suggests this archaic subjugation? [Yes, I realize the quotes are paraphrased, I was too tired to go back and find them verbatim-don't write letters]. Many of you have this constant preoccupation with Jordie getting married and having children when it is absolutely none of your business IF and or WHEN she does or doesn’t. There is to my understanding NO Jewish law requiring a woman marry and procreate. More so, there is no time frame set out within the Torah as to when and how this should take place. What makes anyone take it upon themselves to suggest that not only is she required to do it [and yes, that is EXACTLY how you make it sound] but that she must do it now, rather than later? In my humble, atheistic, gentile opinion, many of you ARE judging her, ARE threatened by her power and one or two of you need to realize you do not speak for the Jewish, female or human race. To be frank, I think you should lay off her AND her family and try actually discussing the damn article as it was presented instead of turning this into a forum for telling a Jewish woman she is ignorant and doesn’t know what she should be doing. Just my dime’s worth. Kudos, Jordie.
No putting men down. What happens inside a feminist who bears a son? Interesting transformations. She will defend her little boy and his right to be what and who he is, a man. This anti-male stuff is very bad. Everybody has to be valued. Oddly enough, the old way – practised correctly! – was the best. As you say, in our tradition, women are not repressed, they are just busy.
Wounded soldiers on battlefields to not cry for their fathers.
Men get the world, we get the kids; properly understood — I repeat, properly understood! – that is a fair division.
Women should do what they want in study and business, however, and always have. But you have to pull your freight reproductively, in most cases. Who in the world is going to help you down the stairs, when you are old? A paid professional? Who is going to supervise that paid professional?
There is nothing more fascinating and intelligence-utilizing than raising children. Nothing at all.
No matriarchy, however. Patriarchy can be awful, but the alternatives are even worse, as was said about democracy. Why is matriarchy even worse? Because it is a double dose of power, and the result is too much power. Someone who has both political and maternal power has a double dose of power.
Jordy’s family are obviously nice people but their whole program seems to be about power not humility. They do not want to bend to anything. They do not want to get on their knees, not even to a stroller. The person in the stroller is genuinely helpless, and so is not an oppressor.
I think the adverse comments here can be divided into two general categories. The denominational — those who disagree with Jordie’s Judaism, and the cultural — those who disagree agree with her feminism. I don’t think Jordy is really interested in either because she takes both of those as givens — her Reform Judaism and her feminism. Indeed, she wrote this column to vent about the relatively parochial tribulations of a dating women rabbi, rather than to put her religion or cultural weltanschauung in play. Like any good work of art however, the artist’s personal interpretation is irrelevant once it has been placed in the public domain. Jordie’s public is clearly interested precisely because of the underlying religious and cultural mores implicit in Jordy’s essay.
My comment. I too care deeply about those issues, see below, but really could care less about routine dating issues that many singles encounter who are not rabbis.
My view. Reform Judaism and Jewish feminism have essentially grafted western values into Judaism, values that are fundamentally alien to true Jewish religious thought. Religion is not just a mushy touchy feely whatever your conscience dictates type thing. It’s a set of beliefs and laws that in many ways is at odds with western liberalism. Reform Judaism cares much more about being in good standing with prevailing western attitudes than with what g-d revealed to Moses at Sinai as to how he wants his people to conduct themselves.
Everything about a woman, her physical and emotional makeup is clearly geared towards motherhood. “and g-d called her Eve because she was the mother of all life” Great women and mothers in the bible abound, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Deborah, Ruth. These women were prophetesses and excelled in motherhood, righteousness, wisdom and moral leadership. G-d agreed with Sarah over Abraham about Ishmael. Rachel saw Esau’s wickedness when Isaac couldn’t.
The single most destructive value that feminism has wrought on women is the denigration of the role of motherhood and ignoring the reality of the biological clock that G-d put in women. Women and men are not equal. Women do miracles on a daily basis that no man could ever hope to accomplish. That is of course the miracle of bringing new life into the world. What amazing faith and trust G-d has placed in women by sharing with them his own role as the creator of life, a role he did not entrust to men. Feminism has stolen this gift from women by devaluing its sacredness and its specialness.
I can think of only one way to fix this problem. Start a new age counter movement called motherism. Anybody who dares put down motherhood or childbearing will be branded a chauvinist, narrow minded, pig who clearly believes that men are as good as women when women are clearly so much more special. I suspect that the liberals and reform jews, always so self-consciously eager to be politically correct, will be the first ones to jump on the bandwagon.
Jordy’s perspective on things may yet change.
At the risk of sounding patronizing–and I don’t mean to be–I’d like to insert a perspective on this absorbing set of conversations that is one of a cultural anthropologist who has worked in the Pacific for many years. Everything I have to say is no more than reminders of what all (or most) of you already know. First, I have heard an almost identical conversation among a group of young women, one of whom was a detective working for an urban police department [and I saw a dramatization of it once on Law and Order: Special Victims]. We live in a world where we have to interact with hundreds of strangers weekly, and we do this successfully by assuming statuses appropriate to the situation. We don’t need to know the name, residence, schooling, etc., of the woman behind the counter at Macy’s. All we need to know is that she is a clerk and we are customers. When we leave the store and go to work, we assume different statuses appropriate to that context. Normally, most of us assume a number of stauses during each day, much like putting on a shirt to go outside, a swimsuit to go to the beach, and the like. We don’t expect the clerk at Macy’s to act like she knows us and start talking about her troubles at home. We separate the status (and its behavioral requirements that are called role) from the person and, thus status (or role) relations from personal relations as categorically different.
But like it or not, there are a few statuses that sociologists call “totalizing” identities, like priest, rabbi, minister, lunatic, cop, terrorist, president (US), and a few others. These statuses definitively characterize the person so that the person becomes encompassed by the role. As Ms. Gerson shows, the person doesn’t disappear, but tends to be constrained and defined by the status. Thus, the idea of premarital sex for a rabbi is far more controversial than for (most of) the rest of us, as other commentators have made clear. As a more orthodox commentator has made clear, the needs of the person are subsumed by the requirements of the status. This extreme view of the matter is not without precedent elsewhere.
On the tiny island where I worked, people are not individuals, but each is defined as one end of a relationship. The person is, thus, defined by the relationship. What differentiates one person from another is their unique ways of prioritizing and conducting relationships. So, for example, what we would call a “comedian” would be termed “person who causes other people to laugh” on this island. Humor is an attribute of the relationship, not of the person. In this sort of world, one predicts what someone else will do in a given situation by knowing what they have done in the past. Statuses–and there are a few, like mother, friend, priest, in-law–are general arenas of expectations, not predictors of behavior. So while we western types live in a world of statuses and roles, these islanders live in a world of biographies, which is why they don’t tend to have totalizing identities. WITH ONE EXCEPTION. Marriage links two families whose interests tend to be conpetitive and to generate a lot of conflict. To reduce the potential situations for conflict, the relation between a man and his in-laws is one of avoidance–he may not speak directly to his in-laws(only through his wife) nor they to him, and he must avoid them whenever possible. Here, biographies are eliminated from having any relevance to the relationship, leaving role as the only guide and predictor. Incidentally, the word that a man or woman uses for in-laws is the same word for “spirit,” so no one in this relation is a person. This is totalizing identity with a vengeance.
This island view is an analog of the extreme religious view expressed above, and it is instructive. It means, in Ms. Gerson’s case, that there is no set of principles or available public guidelines for negotiating one’s personal relationships as a rabbi, priest, cop, lunatic, etc.. The personal is part of the total identity and, thus, constrained by its requirements. The only solutions to the conflict between role requirements and personal needs are those you work out quietly and behind the scenes, and for most rabbis, that is usually by trial-and-error. Fortunately, you have the guts to stick your neck out and expose yourself to whatever comes down the line by sharing your own trials-and-errors in a context that gives you access to other people’s trials and solutions. In the process, you started a fascinating conversation, took your lumps, and gave as good as you got.
Does Reform Judaism have a policy on premarital sex? My understanding is that there are some limits or restrictions in Reform and that not everything goes.
I assume even a Reform Temple would not allow bacon cheeseburgers on the Shabbat lunch menu or permit sex on the bima during the service?
Thinking you won’t get laid if you’re dating a rabbi is pretty darn reasonable — Jewish law says no sex before marriage, and traditionally rabbis were people who lived by Jewish law. Reform rabbis are a bit of a different breed, it seems; the problem may be that prospective lays don’t know that.
why should Jordie's dates care if she's a Rabbi? that's a highly respectable profession and they should be proud of her work, not intimidated by it. do they think that they'll never get laid if they date a Rabbi? if so, then they are obviously not very well Jewishly-educated and are confusing Rabbis with Priests, not to mention only thinking with their "little heads."
Joining the conversation late, and while I’m now in an Orthodox community (married, 1 kid, 1 on the way), and male, I grew up in a Reform Temple and a good childhood friend is now the Canter at a Reform Temple in the region… she was in Rabbinic school before switching back to the Cantorial track, and I vicariously observed her dating problems.
You’re going up against SEVERAL societal trends, that are and have been making your life difficult. It’s easy to decry them as sexist and want them to change. It’s much harder to acknowledge that they exist and work around them, or actively work to change society.
For the female rabbinic student that meets someone at a party and says she’s in rabbinic school, this immediately signals to the Jewish gentleman that she is talking to that she is “A) Jewish, B) serious about Judaism, and C) serious.” It may also signal a bunch of ideals that they don’t understand.
Let’s assume that given the social framework, the gentleman is non-Orthodox, so there isn’t an automatic belief that the woman an an dangerous heretic to be avoided. :)
Everyone has heard the extremely derogatory “shiksas are for practice” line, that Jewish men joke about, but is a real cultural hang-up. Because of our hang-ups about sex, that admittedly aren’t Jewish in origin, but Roman Pagan that we got after being adopted by the Catholic and later Protestant Christians that would come to define western culture. But since people have been culturally wired to believe that having sex with a woman somehow degrades her (particularly outside of marriage), and a belief in the Jewish people as “special” the men have adopted a somewhat bizarre attitude that one should “sew their oats” with non-Jewish women, before settling down with a nice Jewish girl. It’s bizarre, not based on Jewish law at all, basically sticks women into a virtual convent until the men are ready to pursue marriage, but it is there, and a cultural line she is bumping up against.
To the Jewish guy at the party “looking to score,” she puts herself off the market. Because even if he is comfortable attempting a one night stand with a Jewish girl, by signallying that she is a serious person, he’s no longer interested in it. Guys may happily look for “notches on the bed post” of waitress, flight attendant, teacher, etc., “Rabbi” isn’t the event that will impress their friends. They can easily find another desperate, misguided by feminism, easy target at the party without giving themselves an emotional hang up about defiling a Rabbi. :)
Next, half the Jewish guys will be on the conservative half, half on the liberal half (by definition). Those on the more conservative half are immediately going to be uncomfortable about the female Rabbi. Whether they are comfortable with the “concept” of a female Rabbi or not, the practice of it may throw them for a loop. Or if comfortable with it, assume a level of observance and practice that pushes them away. Even if they don’t attribute any higher morality to Jewish women in general, they do to the Rabbinic student, and immediately assume that she is interested in something serious, not casual sex. Unfortunately for our casual sex pursuing Rabbinic student (if I’m reading between the lines on your signals correctly, if not, I apologize), she is signaling that isn’t what she wants).
For the completely secular Jew, the Rabbinic term is a turn-off because it is associated with the religion that they don’t want. They want nothing to do with organized Judaism, so why talk to the girl that is interested in it all. Why bother spending time on the girl that can’t hit the restaurant and bars on Friday night because she’s doing whatever she does for Shabbat.
If you think that it is challenging now, wait until after school. Anyone that romantically shows an interest in you knows that there is an immediate commitment, because instead of an aspiring Rabbi, you’ll be the functional one. They know that in dating you they’ll probably be expected to show up to services, meet congregants, etc.
Basically, you need to find a liberally interested Jew… you need a Jew that believes the ideals of Reform Judaism (not that just goes for Reform because it’s the least work to show up to twice a year), and wants or is willing to be involved with that. In the Orthodox world, there are plenty of women married to Rabbis that don’t play the Rebbetzen role, but those men can’t really take on pulpit roles. To hold a pulpit role, you need to shmooze and network, which includes your wife playing hostess, something that can’t be done if she has no interest in that role.
What percentage of Reform Jews are into Judaism enough to be willing to pursue a woman that requires some degree of involvement in Judaism.
That’s why most of the men walk away. I’m sure if you were in a bar with a low cut top and said that you were a teacher (or a teacher trainee) more men would be interested. Your chosen profession puts a burden on the spouse, and it’s pre-screening people not into it.
Your complaint that men assume you are serious stop pursuing you at that point… I’m sorry that this upsets you, but you might want to revisit some of those feminist ideals. As the other BT writers have pointed out, women have trouble getting married and having kids later on. Now is probably the time to find someone serious, not have a series of Motzei Shabbat flings.
Having read through the article and comments, it seems to me that rabbinical school is ruining the author’s life because of a misapprehension. The men the author meets misapprehend her “rabbinical” school as based in the customs and practices they believe to be important to Judaism. But those customs and practices — being shomer shabat, shomer negiah, and so on — are not, in fact, important to or even a component of the Reform movement.
If the Reform movement did a better job at publicizing how unlike traditional or stereotypical Judaism it is, and how few Jewish customs it deems necessary, then surely the author’s love life would be sitting prettier: people would learn to attach far less weight to the notion of becoming a Reform rabbi.
In the meantime, perhaps the author should tell people, not simply that she is in rabbinical school, but that she is in *Reform* rabbinical school. That would probably communicate the distinction that drives the dissonance (people expect her to adhere to certain beliefs, but she does not) that the article is about.
Thanks, everyone, for the spirited discussion. It's nice to know (a bit overwhelming, too) that one article can spark so many passionate discussions. Lots to think about.
A few things… Despite the bulk of the article, it's true that I have found – at least in New York – a small proportion of men who 'got over' my career very quickly or never had a problem with it to begin with. It's true that the bulk of them were Reform Rabbi's sons or had Israeli parents or had studied religion in college…so I'm not saying ALL Jewish men are averse to dating Rabbis. Just the demographic that I tend to meet through friends and at parties, and in the largely secular world that I spend a lot of time socializing in. In an informal survey of my female classmates the story's always the same.
"So what do you do?"
"I'm in Rabbinical School."
"What? Medical School?!"
"Rabbinical School."
"Huh? Medical School?!?"
"Rabbinical School."
"Oh. Hey – have you seen the bathroom/the friends I came in with/fire exit…I think I left my dog outside."
SAM RITCHIE! I wrote Libby and told her how to tell you to get in touch with me! Amazing.
My cousin married a woman rabbi, not least because finding other Conservative Jews who are serious about Judaism in their daily lives (learning, keeping shabbos and kashrut, praying, etc.) is all but impossible if one looks much beyond the rabbinate. He calls himself a “rebbitzer.” She, by the way, had been in a pulpit (asst. rabbi in a large synagogue), but when she had her first baby, went to a desk job at USCJ – being a pulpit rabbi means being on call 24/7, which is all but impossible with a small child.
Finding a mate who is serious about their Judaism within the Conservative movement is not only difficult for a woman, it’s difficult for everyone. Jack Wertheimer has done studies of Conservative Jews showing that all of about 3% are keep shabbat and kashrut.
By the way, my cousins now attend a Modern-Orthodox synagogue. He didn’t want to keep going to his parents’ synagogue (also in the neighborhood), and aside from rare communities like Cong. Or Zarua, to find a community that supports personal observance, one pretty much has to join up with the Orthodox.
I agree wholeheartedly with Adam D. (though having never dated a Rabbi, I can't speak to that). I think that on the whole smart, passionate men are attracted to those precise qualities in women; qualities that any Rabbi would surely possess. And like anything else, those qualities can become fetishized (a term that is absolutely overused at times to be sure, but in this instance is appropriate); thus why there are men with fetishes for women in glasses, librarians, and the like (of course the whole virgin/whore aspect comes into play with these fetishes as well).
But in the end, as noted above, those who are worthwhile enough don't care precisely what someone does as long as she/he is passionate about it and finds meaning in it. There is something inherently sexy about that quality, in a really healthy way.
There are some apples and oranges being exchanged here. Being a mother doesn’t contradict having a rewarding career. You CAN have your kid and go right back to work. I did it three times, producing 4 kids (how’s that for efficient Jewish breeding?). I am 55 but I work surrounded by bright young women almost all of whom are MDs or Ph.Ds, are married with kids. As for being Orthodox, that also has nothing to do with working. In our community, I can quickly name three Orthodox women who are all physicians, have four kids each (and some of their daughters are doctors, and now there are grandchildren). They managed. You just have to be sufficiently motivated.
First, I’ve dated a Rabbi (or Rabba, but whatev) before and it was intense. The spitural and learning were intense, the sex was intense, and so was the food, the wine the song and everything else that happens with a good relationship. Relaxtion was intense. My relationships with Rabbot (is that a word?) were great because they were great relationships, period.
Maybe because I find Judaism interesting in general and live it, the title meant little more than a slight intellectual kink, and I’m not talking creative uses for tfillin straps… I’m not attracted to all female rabbis, but there’s something sexy about someone who’s learned in ANYTHING, be it Maforshim or Microbiology. Smart is sexy. Rabbis are rock stars, revel in it!
And so, Jordie, don’t sweat the R bomb. Because the right guy, maybe me even, will fall for you and love you because of who you are as a person, regardless of what you do as a profession. For me, its part and parcel. See you on JDATE!
Hopefully, she will be happy for the wonderful son-in-law, regardless of his religion, like my mother was.
Younger Sister Gerson (I don’t want to say little, you don’t sound little), nobody said that marriage, or women, exist ONLY to “procreate”. That ought to be obvious. But that is where “procreation” happens.
I am not saying everybody has to have children, although privately I wish they would.
But I am against illusions, illusions that hurt people who wait too long, think the whole thing will happen naturally, and view the wife / mother thing as somehow guaranteed to be available for “choosing,” like merchandise in a store, when they get around to wanting it. Well, it may not be. Looking out the window, the picture is not pretty. This stuff is very complicated. There are cultural dynamics no one is examining.
I would implore people to really look around, not just consult their philosophic positions. We may need to adjust course, tack into the changing wind. There is endlessly a need to adjust one’s course, based on results, including unanticipated results.
What that may mean to you, personally, is your private business, and your privacy is absolute. I mean no disrespect to you in any way. I am talking in general, not about any particular person. I am not even addressing your mom in a personal way, but rather as a member of a generation, a type. Your family are particularly impressive, which is why they are worth discussing at all. With respect, of course.
Let's hear from Pa Gerson next.
Nobody attacked anybody. Jordie’s mom is a grown woman, a mother, and gee whiz, a surgeon on top of all that; she can handle some strong discussion.
How much does it hurt to never get the wife / mother thing when you are quite good and ready for it, later, and it is no longer possible? Why doesn’t that anguish matter? Because of the money. The foregone income, when a young woman gets busy having children early, and doesn’t make money or enough money. We have leveraged our girls. We have eaten our seed corn.
I never said Jordie should give up rabbinical aspirations!
Somehow her case crystallizes some of these things.
A woman should be well-educated, then marry somewhat young, and have children somewhat young, and keep her hand in, and her mind active, by working half-time, part-time, or from home. Something. Having kids is not an excuse to never read, think, write, take a walk, or go to a museum. PARENTS: are you watching the babies once a week or month, so the young couple can get a night out together and renew their love, or even at the local coffee shop for an hour? This is essential. You can help the young mother answer her emails and write a paper, too, with a little baby-sitting.
With this kind of parental support the whole thing is less terrifying and overwhelming.
Geniuses aside, what most people will leave behind them of most importance is their children. Now there’s a sobering thought.
So it seems about time for a third member of the Gerson family (Jordie’s little sister) to offer her opinions:
Jordie is intelligent, spiritual, passionate, and determined. She has always been (and continues to be) without question one of the best role models a little sister could hope for. Yes, I am biased, but I am also the only person qualified to say that–nobody else lived as her little sister. The same is true of my mother, who has juggled a demanding career and supportive child-rearing with incredible grace. As the well-loved and supported child of two extremely busy people who were successful in their chosen fields, I learned early on that it IS possible to have it all. Is it easy? Of course, not. Does it fall into your lap? Certainly not. But it IS possible. I don’t see that Jordie is falling into any particular sort of danger by wanting, seeking, and expecting to have both a career she feels passionately about and a family. In fact, I have faith that this is not merely possible but almost inevitable–not only for Jordie, but for myself.
I am not a Rabbi, and I don’t plan to be one. I am (possibly the ONLY) young Jewish lesbian living in post-Katrina New Orleans. I work in HIV/AIDS Prevention, and intend to complete my MSW in the next several years. Jordie and I were, apparently, both raised to believe that helping others in its many forms (whether via religion or social work) is the highest thing one can aspire to. I see us both as extremely successful Jewish women–and my opinion on that will not be altered based on whether or not we procreate.
On that note I’d like to address another point that was made; the only point of Jewish marriage is NOT to perpetuate the Jewish community. If this were the case, I might as well throw my hands in the air and live a single life, since I have no hope of (natural) procreation in my partnerships. Marriage, even Jewish marriage, is not solely about offspring. Children are a blessing, without question, but I do not believe a woman’s life is somehow cheapened if she does not reproduce. Marriage, primarily, should be about partnership. About personal fulfillment as a person and as a Jew–something I think we are all entitled to.
Cheers, Jordie. I hope you know how proud of you I am, and how much I love you.
Hey Jordie,
Been decades, no? Great article! Libby sent me the link…
I’m in NYC too. I’ll get your info and say hi…
And BTW, attacking someone’s mother when you don’t agree with them is the childish approach. Kind of like all those “your momma” jokes you hear on junior high playgrounds. Telling people to back off is classy and justified. IMHO.
Welll .. her text IS about her experiences and views. As she actually has a boyfriend, she is being a literal bit general-minded .. she is discussing the situation in general. Her love life is not, right now, ruined. It is fine. Good for her. As she is generalizing, so am I. You are right, I have digressed…
This culture is too, too full of people who beleive their personal experience entitles them to tell other people all the things they don’t understand. BT, you’re not a Reform rabbinical student, so you don’t know how Ms. Gerson feels. You can analyze what she says in her article, but stick to the text.
Monica Osborne, good for you.
Jordie, your Mom is wonderful, and all Jewish mothers agree. There is no argument. As you are not yet a Jewish mother, you have not yet experienced that. You are imagining that there is a fight, because strong talking is going on. But there is no fight. We all want the same things. This is a discussion, not a fight.
It is very hard to let go of one’s children when they grow up.
When I had to face that, I did my Lamaze breathing and shook out my extremities. That helped, but it is just plain hard. Parturition hurts. This is just the last stage of parturition. Ouch.
But it’s worth it. You sure don’t want to spoil your huge project in its last stages.
Peace, peace to all…
Historians were fetishized.
I'm joining this discussion late, and feel a bit drained after reading all the comments. But I will say one thing about my own experience.
Not that I'm a rabbi, by any means. But I once had a J-Date profile for a month–we tend to run low on Jewish men in the Midwest, so I thought I'd give it a shot. And in my profile I wrote that I harbored a secret desire to become a Reconstructionist rabbi (it's true!). I found that the most of the men who were truly interested in getting to know me (more than a few, despite my old age of 29) were drawn to me primarily by that comment (combined with the fact that I'm allegedly semi-attractive).
The ones who liked my rabbinic impulse also happened to be the ones who were the most thoughtful, intelligent, successful, and decent human beings. My point is that, in defense of Jewish men and in support of Jordie, there are plenty of men out there who are looking for sexy, strong, learned, and in-control women–especially if they're actually looking for mates. Of course this isn't the exact same thing Jordie is talking about, but I think it relates . . .
Jordie,
"Lay off my Mom"??
With all due respect, and I really mean it – but this is – I am very sorry, childish.
Lay off my mom.
Your point is interesting. But very few people of any kind have power. Most people try to make a living. Some people are in charge of a department or even a whole business. But in general when they go home, they just go home. They leave that stuff at the office. The home is another thing. A home has to have friends in it. Gender roles are not about power. Making the money isn’t power, it’s just a fact. It can be quite tiring. Cooking dinner isn’t powerless. It can hold the whole thing together. You are confusing different kinds of power. Personality power is an entirely different thing from political, or job site, power. People don’t say, Mr. President, can you get this jar open for me? Uh, sure, Counselor, says he. Have you run it under the hot water? When people are in a marriage there isn’t any power, there are personalities. One hope for some balance. Tyrants aren’t any fun whether male or female. Yes, men like a woman who can hold up her end and not freak out over small stuff. Who can organize things. Who can preserve, protect and defend, her home, if not the constitution of the United States.
The up and coming Rabbi Gerson gorgeously uses her personal dilemma to examine a broad issue facing heterosexual women everywhere. Can we be seen as sexy and desirable by men not in spite of but rather because of our power? Admittedly, being a female Rabbi is a harder example than most, but what woman doesn’t struggle with this question? Kudos to Gerson for demanding it all and refusing to shed pieces of her identity to get it.
What beliefs does a reform rabbinical student have anyway. From my understanding of the reform beleifs are not necessary. Isn’t it like Unitarianism anyway?
Those destructive forces are swirling ABOUT her, not IN her. They are a problem for her, and I am trying to defend her. There is nothing wrong with HER. She is terrific. Anyway, it’s not just her. I was talking about a social condition that is general now.
I have to say that BT has many points right on the money. Jordie's Mom, with all due respect, still sounds a tiny little bit too aggressive and upbeat. Feels like a self-convincing "everything-gonna-be-alright, you-can-be-whatever-you-wanna-be" routine. And its great for encouraging a child, but Jordie is not a child…
I think that our world loses its direction and the situation with families is just a natural consequence. American dream was fine when America was young and poor. It was a GOAL – a direction to a non-Marxist materialism over the backdrop of religious meelee with a great Church of Individualism in the center. All movement is good for a society. Pursuit of happiness is all about pursuit and very little about happiness. A great Russian singer wrote "No wonder all great writers ended their stories at the wedding/They have no idea what to do with their subjects afterwards!
Women has great advantage in this game – their happiness is very elegant and natural – love in all its manifestations. So the true questions is – can other loves in a woman's life cover for the very good chance that in pursuit of them, a woman will gradually diminish her chances for the love that emanates from family and children?
It is also has to be said that women's experience of the previous, "boomers" generation, most probably won't be repeated for their daughters. America was an industrial giant, manufacturing jobs were galore, middle class was growing, older generation small, young bulls raging both in ideas and hormones. Not anymore. And what I think is really interesting in BT's posts is her instinctive understanding that there may not be that many places at the fiesta table any more and that makes her biological clock go faster. I think she has a point.
I wonder how Jordie’s mom would feel if she married a non-Jew?!?
To each his own. To each his own!! No amount of lecturing people is going to change anyone’s beliefs or habits. Jordie is an incredibly ethical, good person who does not have “anti-baby, anti-home forces swirling about her.” If I ever attain even a fraction of her integrity towards others and towards the life of the mind and of service, I believe I will have succeeded. Do not be so quick to judge and be harsh without pointing the finger back at yourself.
The world is full of crazy people,
Namaste.
If it was just Jordie, fine, but it’s lots of people. SHE brought up the romantic difficulties. Look at the title of her post. And it’s not like all is well in the land. All is disastrous in the land.
The demography police seem awfully concerned about when the future Rabbi Gerson chooses to have children. The fate of the Jewish people, it seems, appears to rest on the reproductive choice of one woman. Lost in all of this is that fact that she has dedicated her life to service to Judaism. Did it ever occur to you that a charismatic Reform rabbi, Gerson has the potential to inspire hundreds of young Jews to remain affiliated with Judaism rather than drift away from the faith. Or that Rabbi Gerson might inspire dozens of non-Jews to convert? Truly, it seems that many of you are incapable of thinking outside the womb.
B”H
The Typist
———-
To a mother who asked advice on becoming a typist to supplement the family income, the Rebbe wrote:
Don’t become a typist. You are a mother. Type, if you feel you need to in order to support your family. But don’t become a typist.
A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe
-words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman
Menachem Av 18, 5767 * August 2, 2007
Woman In Your Twenties: The point is how hard it is to get married at all. Your mom was married, so half her battle was already won when you met her. And as she lost touch with her unmarried friends, you never saw that side of things. Married and Unmarried are different worlds. You naturally assume that the life path from unmarried to married will happen to you, because it happened to your mother. These things are no more hereditary than scientific knowledge. Jordie’s mom is a surgeon, but that doesn’t make Jordie a surgeon. Just looking around, yes, it does look different today. In 1960, I read, half of all households were married with children, and now one fourth are. One in four. Does that scare you? The men you know, can they support three people? Themselves, mama, and baby? It is a complete myth that you just have the baby and go back to work. And the square feet to house them? Two bedrooms are in order, and there may be a need for three along the way. Yes, some people do fine sleeping in the living room, with baby growing up in the one bedroom, but perhaps that needs to change when the kid or kids get big.
The party atmosphere just gets weirder every year – partying men are not looking for wives.
It was never easy. The hidden conundrum is the man. He is the one who is the decider, who makes it all possible. Unless you think single motherhood is a gas.
It really depends on what you mean by "keeping Shabbos." Reform rabbis treat Shabbat as a special, separate day, but they still do things that count as "work," like driving to shul, so they're not shomer shabbas by the strictest definition.
Anon 11:52, I think one reason it's hard for women in their twenties to be too worried about the forever-childless thing is that many of us were raised by working mothers. We've watched our own mothers juggle career and family, so why should things be different for us? Do you think things have changed since the late '70s-early '80s, when our moms were starting to have children? (By the way, if you wanted to give yourself an anonymous handle, like "BT," that would make it easier to tell it was you.)
Jordie’s Mom, you mention that Jordie should never stop “standing up for her beliefs”. What in the world are you talking about? Jordie is not overflowing with positions and beliefs. She is a conscientious, committed and articulate student; she has a boyfriend, friends and a loving family. That’s very nice, but it doesn’t sound like a list of beliefs, with a capital B. Beliefs? What beliefs? You don’t have many beliefs either. Or at least you are not mentioning them here. You have strong feelings, all right, but those are not beliefs. You are very clear you want your daughter to have a nice time, and not be critized by passing busybodies. That is natural in any loving mother, but it is not a belief. What you have is a bunch of assumptions, that have the flavor to you of a belief-system. They are based on a vague trust in the future and the goodness of things in general. This may not actually be a literal faith in God, but it is a cousin of it.
Well, fine. I have faith too, and I agree with you.
But I am concerned at what seems to be going on, on every block, on every street corner. This vague optimism of many middle-aged mothers, not just you, is having dire consequences for our future, in my opinion, so I am saying something.
The unspoken message is that early and fertile domesticity is somehow a disease to be avoided. That the fun is not inside the house, it is inside the office. What nonsense. Offices are just as tiresome as nurseries. And you can be fired. You can’t be fired as somebody’s mother.
You have a fabulously rewarding job, but most of the human race does not. NO JOB is a substitute for children. Your own life screams that from rooftops! EVEN YOU had not one but two children, in spite of being in your highly placed, well paid, enormously respected, and preciously useful position!
We denigrate wife / mother, than prattle on about the Jewish future. We leave the actual heavy lifting, of producing that future, to somebody else. The sucker down the street who didn’t do well on the exams.
And we miss out on the joy.
Wife/mother is a culture. If you don’t put it first, you don’t have it. You can have and do all sorts of other things in addition to it, and while doing it, BUT you have to put wife/mother first when the crunches come, and they will come.
No, your sweetie does not have “pleeeenty of time”. After all, we take years to marry, even when we meet the Right Person.
Neither. 1) We are not disputing feminism. We just want to keep it from spaying women. 2) It’s obvious that Jordie is Reform. Yes, it was remarked that increased religious observance correlates with increased family life, but this discussion is not about religious correctness, it is about what modern life is doing to the marital and motherhood prospects of young women. Women who figure the forever-childless thing can never happen to them. Who have no idea how little time they really have, or what huge invisible obstacles are stacked against them. Female Rabbi outlined some of these invisible, deadly realities, bless her. I am BT, but Female Rabbi is a tzaddikes (saint) in my book, for doing that.
Are there any observances expected by a Reform rabbi? I would think that Sabbath observance is essential to any sort of Judaism and that a least a Reform rabbi would keep Shabbos. If there is no observance required how is having a female rabbi as a wife any different than a teacher or social worker?
First of all, this is a fascinating comments thread, and I'm thrilled to see the range of opinions represented here. But the more I read, the more I wonder: Are the BT posters aware that Jordie's studying to be a Reform rabbi? As far as I know, Reform Judaism doesn't require its leaders to be shomer Shabbat, and certainly doesn't ask them to be shomer negiah. So how much of this is a debate about feminism, and how much is it denominational?
Jordie’s mom, it’s just as I thought. You assume that because your daughter is a jewel that she cannot fall afoul of the traces. But she can. That is the horrible problem. There are anti-home, anti-baby, anti-everything factors and forces swirling about her, and you can’t see them, and these factors apply even to the brilliant and the gorgeous, such as your marvelous daughter. Being a jewel used to protect against a lot, but it does not do that any more. Only real TIGERS get husbands and babies any more. You have to fight like tiger for these things. You have to go against every force, every trend, everything, to get these basic rights. Yes, a decent husband and at least one baby is a RIGHT. Some women don’t want them, and that’s their decision, fine. But the right to say no has cost the right to say yes!
Jodie’s Mom, how many of your friends and relatives have Jewish grandchildren? Do you dare to deny that Jewish grandchildren are becoming a scarce luxury? Deny that if you dare. Look around. Think. Please do not blithely assume it will all be all right. It might not. As a doctor you know what triage is. We have to decide what is the lesser evil.
BT
Jordie –
It bothers me somehow that several writers implied that a Rabbi is somewhat ore than a regular human. I always thought that Rabbi is a teacher, not a priest. The word "clergy", as originally used in Christianity implies people of the Church (Ecclesia), people that are not just people or teachers, but in-betweens of heavens. It is still true in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxies but not in Protestantism.
Can you tell us if in the traditional sense Rabbi is still considered to be just a teacher, or you guys sneaked yourself into a priesthood one day when we all were having dinner? (without re-building the Temple) :)
Also, Jordie, after all these letters about "reluctant Jewish men" I asked myself what would I feel if a girl that lit my candle would turned to be a rabbi. To be honest with you (and I apologize if I insult anyone's feelings) I, to my own surprise, was kind of puzzled if some of the less traditional physical expressions of passion would be faux pas here. This thought bothered me more than it should and I was not able to dismiss it lightly. I bet some of my fellow Y-chromosomed Jews must have the same problem.
Wow, lots of people putting words in my mouth. So, I am Jordie’s mom and here is my response. First of all, I could not be prouder of my brilliant, articulate, funny, gifted and if I say so myself, stunningly beautiful daughter. (Same goes for my other daughter) No bias here.This will be true whether Jordie is a rabbi, writer, chaplain, wife, mother, and any combination of those roles. I would never tell Jordie that having it all is easy. Having it all means that work life must compromise with home life and visa versa. Life is complicated whether we work, stay at home, or do both; whether we have children or dogs. Balancing is a fact of life for most women I know. Having children is truly the great joy of my life, but having the training and skill to save a child’s life is a gift for which I will eternally be grateful. Knowing that I have made sick children well and healthy children healthier has not only enriched my life but taught my daughters that they have much to contribute not only to their families but to the greater community as well. To those who would deign to judge Jordie for her choices on religious observance, I have the same regard as I have for the person who thinks that there is one right way to practice, and he just happens to know what it is; the same regard I have for those who think we are going to hell for not believing in Jesus, and that we should be bombed for not believing in Allah. I abhor religious intolerance whether it comes from Jews, Christians, Moslems or anyone else. Those intolerant Jews are the very reason your voice is so important Jordie. Never give in to those who would tell you how to live or love. Never stop standing up for your beliefs. You are an incredible young woman and I am in awe of your gifts. For anyone else who in interested in what I have said or would say to Jordie, just ask me.
I don’t get it…and neither does Ms. Gerson!!!
How does someone study Torah and Gemara with the goal of becoming a Rabbi and not be Shomer Mitzvot…not understand the importance of Taharat Hamishpacha…not have the desire to properly observe Shabbat…not understand the concept of tznius…not understand the intrinsic roles of men and women in a Jewish marriage…?
Obviously the men she was dating understood the inherent conflict that she epitomizes. Even though they themselves were not observant of Torah law, their neshamas gave them a sense that something was wrong…that it wasn’t right to have an intimate physical relationship with someone who was supposed to be upholding the Torah, exemplifying and teaching others about these “laws.”
Every Jew has different levels of observance based upon, among other things, desire and ability, to restrain their yeitzer hara. These men may not have any problem being sexual and immodest with another non-observant Jew, but the idea of defying the Torah with someone that is supposed to be espousing it is too much for even them to ignore.
As far the ability of many secular Israeli men to ignore these issues is understandable because they are used to living among Torah observant Jews and have desensitized themselves to the point that their neshamot are weakened to the point that they don’t see it as being wrong or contrary to the essense of being a Jew.
By the way Ms. Gerson, “feminism” is “the principle that women should have political, economic and social rights equal to those of men”…it doesn’t say anything about religion and for very good reasons. The Torah holds women in very high regard and generally on a much higher level than men, especially spiritually. Why try to be a man’s equal when you are already his superior? Also, for a child, a father can never take the place of its mother and there can be no greater reward for a mother than teaching Torah to her own children and ensuring that they live in a Torah observant home.
On a final note…spirituality, sexuality and Judaism can only co-exist if you lead a true Torah lifestyle. Otherwise you are only fooling yourself and nothing will ever feel right and neither your soul nor your body will ever be satisfied.
One who reads this article has to ask a single simple all important question: Why become a Rabbi? Why do you want to be a Rabbi? If you don’t understand or care about the most fundamental basis of what it means (accepting Shabbat as a covenant with God; adhering to what is right by Torah vs doing what feels good in the moment) then why sacrifice for it?
These men are responding to you in a certain way – a way which references their instincts that they expect a Rabbi to hold to a particular level of dignity and modesty. It seems that you might not respect yourself as a Rabbi as much as they respect you.
I write these comments with respect and kindness.
I graduated a major rabbinical seminary as a single woman and headed to a large congregation in the suburbs. I met my bashert – on eharmony of all places! – but I described myself as a “community educator.” The first few times he asked me more specifically what I did, I said what I did but not within the context (you know, I teach, I help the young and the old, etc). By the time I “came out” as a rabbi, by our 3rd phone conversation or so, we had so many other connections that it didn’t matter. We’re engaged and planning a November wedding. And he’ll be called a Rebbetz-man in my shul! Keep the faith, as I did, and you’ll find Mr. Right. I firmly believe that we need to find ourselves before we can find our bashert, and that rabb school is a journey of great discovery. B’hatzlacha!
A Female Rabbi says higher religiosity correlates with earlier marriage age for men. She says that non-religious men in their thirties are also non-marrying. They are non – BOTH. I favor people going BT partly for this reason. I do not think there is a demographic future for less observant people.
Survival is the first test of any strategy. That ought to be obvious.
It won’t matter how fulfilled we all were, when there aren’t any of us any more.
The median age of American Jews is 37. Only one of their households in FOUR contains a person under 18.
A vigorous young woman, not worried too much about money because of her family’s position, passionate about the Jewish future, should find a Jewish man who is interested in building a very large Jewish family, containing as many children, almost, as nature and God will give them. Now that would be interesting. I wonder if Jordie would do this. She would catch holy hell from her mother for ‘not fulfilling her intellectual potential’, but maybe she could stand her ground. She is very smart and very strong.
I know orthodox people who do this. They just had their sixth. They look nice on Shabbos and they do not appear to be starving in any way. They also look cheerful. Of course they do not have to buy video games and ipods and all that stuff for their children.
Perhaps division of labor is effective.
Perhaps the old gender roles worked. They worked off women’s unpaid work, sure. But I am not excited about the prospect of all those empty chairs.
Non-orthodox Judaism produces an awful lot of empty chairs!
Having two children is not really a replacement birthrate, because there are always people who don’t have any children. Those who can have children have to make up for them, for the community to survive, long-term.
People “get religion” about family and children in their middle thirties, or a tiny bit after that. Then, the fertility specialists are called upon, to fix the imprudences of the past.
Can you hear them weeping in the night, the childless who waited too long? I can.
I have seen a lot, and I never saw anything to beat raising children for interest, including intellectual interest.
I’m married to a female rabbi. It’s pretty amazin.
I really think that the key to success is finding someone who is pretty confident and not harboring a large ego. Some men can find it tough to have a woman outshine them, but who would want to be with one of them anyway?
There are lots of great Jewish men out there, and not all of them have a chip on the shoulder or are scared away by someone who can bless (and more important, curse to eternal damnation) people.
I wonder if Jordie’s mom privately thinks that Jordie’s hours, as a pulpit rabbi, will be a lot shorter and less grueling than hers were, as first a doctor then later, a surgeon. She probably thinks it’s sweet her daughter will have a nice time… nobody is going to bleed to death if her daughter makes a mistake. And her daughter is obviously brilliant, beautiful, articulate and charming, so what’s the problem?
Sure. But Female Rabbi has been there and done that, and the news is to be a little careful, just the same.
Life is hard no matter what. This chasing happiness is ridiculous. Your mother may not have told you everything. They don’t always, these mothers. I have heard of people being frustrated because they didn’t go very far in life, but that’s nothing to the howling anguish of the unmarried, and / or, the childless. You young women get such a teensy tiny little window of time. You don’t know that. You are strolling along a precipice and you don’t know it…….
Female Rabbi, please explain for me. I am spluttering and I am not making sense.
Would this rabbi’s husband, if she finds one, be a rebitzon?
Did she learn of the issur on sleeping around especially with goyim prior to enrolling in this program?
What kind of rabbincal student isn’t Shomer Shabbos? Isn’t Shmiros Shabbos the basis for Judaism?
As a female rabbi ordained by a major seminary (though based on my conversations with female colleagues who were ordained by other denominations, I don’t think my experiences are that atypical), I can emphatically agree that being rabbi casts a long, long shadow on potential romantic partnerships. And this is definitely more true for females than it is for males.
My male classmates, bless them, are all married. Some paired off before entering school, while others found their mates during and after ordination. While some of their dates initially freaked out about the rabbi issue, every single one of them found women (all the men in my class were straight) who either cared about Jewish life or were willing to become more observant. For the women in my class, it has been a different story. Most, though not all, have eventually found loving spouses. Many, however, were forced to compromise in ways that my male colleagues just didn’t have to–e.g. their mates are signficantly less/not at all religious, and many are far less career-focused/less economically viable than are their wives.
The essential problem? The lack of single Jewish males who are seriously engaged in non-Orthodox Jewish life. (The ones who do care tend to marry by their early 30′s at the latest.) Once you hit your 30′s, the number of men in this pool is extremely shallow–the average Jewish male, let’s face it, just isn’t involved. They may care about Jewish identity, but the very things you hold dearest–including a life focused on Torah, prayer, Jewish study, and helping to sustain a community based on Jewish values and practice–just isn’t a priority for the vast majority of them. (Why they are not engaged in Jewish life is the subject of another treatise…) It’s a classic values mismatch. As a result, the average Jewish male is either a) completely intimidated or b) freaked out when he meets a woman who happens to be a rabbi. (She talks to GOD! She is sexless! She is goodness incarnate!) Since he isn’t involved in Jewish life and doesn’t know others who are rabbis, he invariably places you in the “Other” category. (Of course, if he knew rabbis, he’d know that we swear, drink, have sex, and all the other things that normal people do.)
My advice? Do your darnest to find a mate (if that is your ultimate goal) while you are still in school. It will only get more difficult as you get older, for both religious- and age-related reasons. And realize, as sad as this may sound, that if he isn’t related to or hasn’t roomed with/hung out with a rabbi (or future rabbi, in the case of a childhood/college friend) the “Rabbi” barrier may be too great for him, no matter how attractive he may find you.
Did both. She's a mom, and she's a pediatric surgeon. She did both. Raised kids (two) and healed them.
You may have to make hard choices. Will you be ready to decide what is most important if you can’t have it all? I would like to point out that the family thing is also fulfilling and meaningful, and that the professional thing has its tedious moments. BOTH have their good aspects and negative aspects. BUT: there is a real textural, qualitative difference between them. Wife/mother is not just another thing people do with their time, among other concerns. Wife/mother is a personal matter, that goes deeper than professional engagement, which, of course, can change. If there were no rabbinic jobs open, at all, anywhere, and you needed to work, you would find yourself doing something else. It is just something you know how to do. Wife/mother goes with you no matter what the market is doing.
Your mother is kidding you that you can fit wife/mother in, insert it into a busy life that contains many pursuits. Did she do this? How did that play out? What hard choices did she make? How did that feel to her, and to others?
I wish one could have it all, and live to a hundred and fifty, and have beautiful hair forever, and never get a cold. Life is tougher than that, as you very well know.
Are you going to have a good time, rapping complicated God stuff – so heavy! – with the men, as the scarfed and snooded orthodox women shepherd their broods past the study room window, when you don’t have any children, because the family thing was just a little more complicated than your mother admitted to, and it never quite came together? I am just concerned. I am not being snide.
Your mother, while sainted, I am sure, is a human being, not an angel. She already HAS a child. YOU. Just be careful that she is not living out her frustrated fantasies of community participation through you, from the SAFETY of her status as, very probably a wife, and very certainly a mother. Careful! SHE has nothing to lose! SHE is safe! YOU are not! YOU are at risk!
(Her only risk is not having grandchildren. You have NO IDEA how scarce JEWISH grandchildren are getting! But the oldsters don’t think about that, ever.)
OF COURSE your charming mother MEANS well! But meaning well is no defense against error! I would ask you to LOOK AROUND with unbiased eyes and THINK about what it takes to bring new people.
Children take a lot. There are self-cleaning ovens and self-defrosting refrigerators but there are no self-raising children.
When you die, your children will ring your bed. They will be wonderful. You will say, I fussed, I bothered, I sweated, but I have PEOPLE to show for it. That is more than any other job could have produced.
I can't reply to all of these because I'm knee-deep in a parshanut paper and Radak is a little longwinded, but BT – I have a lot. I have a big family that loves me, a community of friends that I feel blessed by, mentors (many of whom are women clergy) that I respect and admire, and a loving boyfriend who is, Daphna, admirably and often painfully honest. (I'm pretty sure that's the Israeli part of him!) Admittedly, though, it took a while to find him.
I also have the privilege of full participation in the Reform Jewish community I inhabit. I can chant Torah. I can teach Torah. I can study Gemara with my male peers. I can be viewed as a Rabbi/nic student (though Annie is right, I still bump up against the institutionalized sexism of the Jewish world all the time.) by the communities that I serve and train in, and I can model – on my good days – for my female students at NYU – how they might find a place for themselves in a tradition heir to a history of sexism.
Alex, I poked around on the web for the study and can't find it, but I think it was in Psychology Today a few months ago. In any case, the point is not that I don't want to be married someday, (I would, and I'd also like to have children) it's that there are any number of things in my life that I aspire to, and that make me happy. Marriage and children is only one of them. And, BT, my Mom would love to see me married, too. But she'd also like to see me professionally fulfilled, doing work that I find meaningful and rewarding, that gives me a sense of purpose. She raised me to know I can want and do both, even if it's sometimes hard. She raised me to believe I always have a choice.
What can Daphna possibly mean by “hook up meaningfully with people”? There is 1) hook-up, which has nothing to do with meaning, just gratification, and there is 2) meaningful, which means… what?
When women and men use the machinery of courtship for mere amusement, they are playing with firearms as convenient tools for making holes in the barn door. They get a whole lot of nothing, and then they wonder why. Playing with heavy machinery in ways it is not designed for leads to getting hurt. If you just want a good time, don’t be amazed that it is shallow. Of course it’s shallow. It is supposed to be shallow. If anybody said to me, “I just want to date you, I don’t want to get serious” as Jodie said, I would feel offended, though I might not show it. “What am I, not good enough to consider for a spouse?” I would think. Thanks, pal. Same to you. Do you think people, living human beings, are toys? Talking is fine in daylight, but dim lighting with lowered voices either means you are considering the person for marriage or you figure they have their uses for amusement and nothing more. How would YOU like to be treated like that?
If you are not shomer this and you are not shomer, that what exactly are you shomer? Exactly what are you going to teach, Jewish civilisation as interesting intellectual material, like the ancient Greeks? Are you classifying the Jewish God with Zeus, a cult no longer practised?
I am BT. I advise that. You will have a home and children. You will have to sweat bullets for it, but you are obviously strong enough for that.
Otherwise, you will die a highly competent dater with many wonderful friends. Is that enough for you? Maybe it is. It’s a free country. But empty arms and beds hurt. Careful. The party lines are false. Somebody has to say it, so I did. Your mother does not know what she is playing with, or sentencing you to. SHE is fine. SHE has you. Who do you have? Who will you have?
Thoughtful nuanced remarks, but off the mark. I think. From the perspective of being a middle-aged chick with spouse and 3 kids, as well as being a rabbi wannabe (not pulpit), this is it: Jordie has bumped up against the fundamental closemindedness of the way we live as a society, and the concommitant dishonesty of people with themselves (and hence, others). It’s hard to hook up meaningfully with people because so often people have a very hard time facing themselves, their motivations and their fears squarely. As such, communicating with others is inhibited by all sorts of barriers to real understanding (first with themselves, and by extension to others). Jordie’s first challenge is to find a really honest guy (not just attractive – there are lots of those). I’ve met 3. I think.
Don’t get me wrong. I think there are good people out there. Finding and cultivating and reaping genuine honesty is the Mount Everest. B’hatzlacha yaldati .
Jordie –
Can I humbly ask you to give us the source of the study(ies) that you quoted: "but single women tend to be happier than married women"? Because then, the correct (mathematically at least) statement for women would also be – "If you want to have a better chance to be happy, you should stay unmarried". That goes (may be sadly) against everything I saw anywhere my life took me. Also, IMHO, that statement has to have an age variable.
Also, I think, saying that S. Cohen was dishonest in his study is a little bit too rush for a woman of your level of training in reasoning. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that these kind of accusations, however mild the tone, require at least an attempt of substantiating, don't you think? :)
Educated –
Gotcha. Me culpa. Stupid old man, me! :)
Steven M. Cohen and Judith Schor, “Gender Variation in the Careers of Conservative Rabbis Ordained Since 1985,” Rabbinical Assembly, 2004
And yes, anecdotally, I too know female rabbis who have married, but they do so in a much smaller number than their male counterparts, or than non-ordained women.
I cannot, however, argue that the study isn’t preoccupied with marriage and procreation, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit. I am not arguing that their life is any less worthwhile, but that it proves that men and women still haven’t gained equality in the Jewish professional sphere.
Annie
At least I'll have a job I love. And goals and dreams beyond snagging a husband. (Thanks, Mom!)
Steven Cohen didn't honestly do a study on this, did he? Come on. Sounds a little too much like the line we've been fed that women over 40 who've never been married are more likely to be killed by a terrorist than get married someday (which was debunked earlier this year by the magazine that initially published it). And that if they stay unmarried, their lives somehow have less worth, and they're not as happy. (Also proven wrong by the studies which say that being married might make life easier, but single women tend to be happier than married women.)
And if he did do a study, it seems to me that it would be in keeping with all the other Jewish population studies that have been done of late, which are unnervingly preoccupied with whether or not Jews of my (our) demographic are getting married to each other and making Jewish babies.
In any case, I know quite a few female Rabbis who were married (or found life partners) after ordination.
A couple years ago there was a study about female rabbis and their love lives. It probably wasn’t called that. At any rate, it was by Steven M Cohen, and the findings were as follows: women who didn’t get married before, or during Rabbinical school were likely to stay unmarried. Something like 80% of them never married. Not that I am suggesting that you’ll die alone, just that female rabbis have a harder time of dating.
Also, I meant to sign in, but apparently Jewcy hates me.
Annie
http://jewbiquitous.blogspot.com
Alex and Jordie, I was being ironic. I don’t think there’s such a thing as “hyper-educated.” Lukeford made that term up as an insult, which I found ridiculous. So I took the term and used it myself, much like the term “queer.” See you in NYC.
Jordie:
"I thought her comments were thoughtful and accurate, and that Luke Ford's comment was a total cop-out." – Not only I totally agree with this part, I also think you are much too kind to the pig. The guy needs to be kicked in the ass by any self-respected man who finds himself at the kicking distance. I never reacted to it myself, because there was no intellectual value there, just skatological. And I don't throw my perls before swines.
But I do believe what I said about "hyper-educated" in principle. May be I in her particular case I am wrong. When you meet her in NYC, you will see. And then you can tell me. :)
I don't think "I'm so educated"'s comments were self-involved, Alex (unless that was me you were referring to, and I'll defer to the critique. This is a first person piece, after all.) I thought her comments were thoughtful and accurate, and that Luke Ford's comment was a total cop-out. (To say the least…the misogyny was stomach-turning. Who cites rape statistics to make the point that a woman's worth depends on her age and/or appearance?)
In any case, my shul is dues-free, Educated, if you live in New York City. I work at NYU. Feel free to stop by any Shabbat.
I do not think there is such a thing as "hyper-educated". Even in double quotes. But there is such thing as being hyper-self-involved. :)
I’m a Harvard graduate with advanced degrees, a feminist political viewpoint, and a lesbian wife. I’m “hyper-educated.” I don’t have soon-to-be-Rabbi Gerson’s problem, as I’ve already found someone with whom to both have sex and spend my life. But I understand her frustration, and I do think it’s an interesting dilemma–how to be sexual and “religious,” how to navigate becoming a rabbi and finding a mate–a dilemma that is not one “everbody has.”
Lukeford’s suggestion that men who reject the author do it because they’re “not that into” the future rabbi is a cheap cop-out here, one that refuses to acknowledge the continuing double-standard against women, who are expected to be either Madonna or Whore, nothing in between. Sexy girls are great… but are they marriageable?
As for the charge that “women don’t like to marry down,” I don’t even know where to begin. And the rape comment? Basically, luke read the article, saw its criticism of a cultural phenomenon played out by men (most men are probably completely unaware of the double standard they are holding women to), freaked out, and got defensive… in a really offensive way. “After a woman passes her mid-twenties, her stock starts going down. Just look at the rape rates. Females 12-25 get raped. After that, not so much.” Young women are hot; older women are not—is that your point, lukeford?
Let’s hear less angry replies and more from the future rabbi. I’d join her shul any day…. how much are dues?
Funny, sharp, exotic, dangerous. Like when you buy a can of corn and when opened, find a grenade inside. With a pin removed.
Makes me lament my age probably for the first time in my life :)
Have a good life, good woman.
Anita and Joey: In my experience the salient categories for Israeli men are the same as they are for most men: attractive, smart, funny, kind, fun, etc. The difference with Israeli men (at the risk of making a gross overgeneralization) is that they – for better or worse – tend to have little to no context for Liberal Rabbis/Reform Rabbis/female Rabbis. That's the first (non) issue – they have very little baggage with Liberal Judaism and female Rabbis. They're not scared of us, because they can't quite conceive of us. (Which is both a blessing and a curse). The second is that many of the secular Israeli men I know have either dated or been friendly with very religious women in the past – observance is more 'normal' in Israel than it is here – so that what constitutes "religious" for them is different than what constitutes "religious" for an American Jewish man who went to public schools, was raised in a Reform Synagogue, last encountered Judaism in a real way at his Bar-Mitzvah, and is ambivalent about being Jewish to begin with. So at the risk of making another gross overgeneralization, I think Israeli men tend to be more comfortable with their Jewish identities, less worried about seeming "too Jewish" via who they're dating and perhaps – perhaps – less preoccupied than Americans (or New Yorkers) about the career path of their significant other. Dates with Israelis – perhaps for cultural reasons – are some of the few dates I've gone on in New York that haven't felt like job interviews. My Israeli boyfriend, when pressed to talk about my career choice likes to say, "Look – if it makes her happy – I'm happy. What she does is her business, not mine. I'll love her no matter what she does." (Though it probably doesn't hurt that I speak Hebrew, want to raise Jewish children, and every now and then like to have lots of friends over for Shabbat dinner.)
And that, as Joey says, IS refreshingly open-minded.
**All of this is based on anecdotal evidence, of course.
Anita Anita, how do you suppose Israeli men would react differently to a female rabbi? More frigid or more open-minded? I think, for Israeli men, the salient category is likely to be "receptive American woman" rather than "rabbi," so my bet is that they'd be refreshingly open-minded, very receptive to setting the religious/spiritual issues aside, or even ignoring them altogether.
I think a follow up article is in order regarding how Israeli men react differently than American men when you drop the “R” bomb.
Amazing, Amazing piece.
Did you ever though that there is maybe a little bit of your fear that is radiated to your date when you announce “I AM A RABBI”
Here is something small for you from the other side.
“I am a Rabbi” she said, waiting for my respond.
The only thing that was common between us was that we were Jews,
We were different and my question was, is the gap too big to get to the other side?
There were many things standing in the middle of the way between us, but not one of them was the career choice, “Talit”( praying shawl), “Kipa” or that she was a Rabbi.
She is a teacher, a “Torah” teacher, Is there any different besides that the school principal is GOD. :-).
Was it a BIG DEAL?
I really don’t know where did the question came from, we both woke up in the morning, brush our teeth put something on and run to the subway not before going in the delly buying a sandwich with “who knows” what is inside, after rolling the eyes to the sandwich man for not making it as we request on a English muffin.
Nothing was different. Nothing is different. Nothing.
She is a she.
I am I.
And we are-
Together.
Great piece.
Pretend you’re a stewardess – worst case, you might have a little fun…
I really like this piece. Funny, smart and eloquent. And the photos and pics are hilarious. Please publish more of her writing.
no one “likes to marry down” and what do rape statistics have to do with anything?!
i’m all for the well-educated, spiritually advanced, sexually awakened rabbi -
three cheers for you, rabbi gerson!
i love knowing that my kids could grow up in a world where rabbi doesn’t mean condascending keeper of the book.
Everybody has the following problem: "too many of the men I date make significant assumptions about me without getting to know me first."
If a man finds you attractive, he won't let the "rabbi" part interfere. If he doesn't pursue you, it's because he's not that into you.
Women don't like to marry down. They don't want to marry anyone less educated. As you are hyper-educated, like every other non-married hyper-educated woman, you're going to have a hard time. From 18-22 is the best time for a woman to find a husband. After a woman passes her mid-twenties, her stock starts going down. Just look at the rape rates. Females 12-25 get raped. After that, not so much.
As an ex-Catholic lesbian Jew who at least once a week seriously thinks about suing her old school principal (a nun) to pay her therapy bills, I sympathize with Ms. Gerson’s dilemma… Women should be able to have it all: Judaism, spirituality, sexuality, sexual pleasure, and someone to experience that with. Thank G-d I’m a lesbian, which I assume makes the whole dating-while-feminist thing much, much easier!
Sexuality and religion, that age-old taboo, even among supposedly more embodied Jews. Jordie, thank you for being the open, sexy, fearless women–and writer–that you are! Great piece.
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