Israel's State-Sanctioned Persecution Of Messianic Jews Must End

I think the problem is that Messianic Judaism is simply not Judaism; it's another religion, essentially a peculiar form of Christianity.  They may claim to be Jews, but they are Christians by definition; namely, they believe in the divinity of Jesus and worship him accordingly (and they study the "New Testament", the Christian Bible).  In addition, Christianity is a proselytizing religion (regardless of whether or not individuals engage in proselytization is irrelevant), and the potential of proselytizing from "within", so to speak, is naturally seen as threatening by the gov't of Israel, for obvious reasons.

Your point about the Law of Return and its applicability is a good one.  I guess the question would then be whether what they are experiencing is
indeed 'antisemitism' and not some other, perhaps related, form of prejudice.  If Messianic Jews are targets of antisemitism like what occurred in Nazi Germany (in which they are targeted as Jews regardless of their conversion to Christianity) they probably should be allowed to immigrate, I would hope, under a special provision.  But are they actually targets of such acts now?  Regardless, discrimination against Messianics that are in Israel is deplorable, I agree there.

The basic tenet of Judaims is iconoclasm; acccepting Yeshua as a Mesiah keeps you out of Judaism. I'm sorry for them, but Messianic Judaism started as yet another Christian way of targeting Jews for conversion.

 I know that I sound intolerant and dogmatic, but I can't help it: there has been zillions of movements inside Judaism, but iconoclasm has always been the limit.

You are not a Jew if you believe in Jesus.

 Get it?

1. Messianic Judaism is another religion?

Perhaps so. Yet tens of thousands of Israelis today practice Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism, have no connection at all to Judaism nor do they believe in the Jewish religion. Should they be denied citizenship as well?  And after them, who else? Jews who are Atheists? If the Jewish Haredi Aryan fundamentalists carry out their extremist policies, there will be no citizens left in Israel who are will fit their absolutist categories but the ultra-Orthodox and the Arab citizens.

2. Following the Legacy of Nazism

Those who support the current ideology of discrimination  against Messianic Jews are following the Nazi legacy.  The Brother Daniel and Edith Stein are two examples of Jewish converts to Catholicism who were prosecuted by the Nazis. Yet if the Jewish state existed in the 1940s, it would turn its back on them.

3. Messianic Judaism uses deceitful messages and is a form of Fundamentalist American Protestantism

 However, they are still better than the Haredim since the latter do not serve in the army altogether, nor do they see it as their ideal to contribute to the society they live in while Messianic Jews are idealistic and committed citizens and even overly-committed at times.

Messianics say Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Interesting how this VERY new movement seems to know more than ALL of our sages put together. If their Jesus was messiah then why didn't the Rambam, Arizal, Ramban, or any other of the thousands of geniuses who have graced our history tell us so? Does Mr. Ben-Yehuda know more than they? If I was asked about who my favorite 16th-century Rabbinic writer was I could choose from hundreds; where are the great messianic writers? There are none. Plain and simple. The Jewish sect that thought of Jesus as a prophet is long gone - centuries ago. What of the Jews that thought of him as moshiach? They were few and never formed a cohesive community. Christianity became the gentile religion is was destined to be and (gratefully) took with it its pagan trinity. Botom line: there is NO continuous Jewish/Christian faith that has endured throughout the ages. All our greatest minds KNEW how far removed from Judaism the belief in Jesus was. Did God speak of a second part to the Torah called the New testament as if Torah was some sort of Harry Potter book that required a sequel? Want reasons Jesus wasn't moshiach? Go to jewsforjudaism.com and download their "response to Missionaries" for free.

Furthermore, it is my sincere belief that in many ways, messianics are worse than their openly antisemitic counterparts. One can at least distinguish a skinhead from the way he dresses and his hateful tattoos but a messianic dresses, speaks, and at first even seems to behave as a Jew. They target Jews and ONLY Jews. They want to achieve what others could not: take away who we are. They will not rest until every last one of us is like them. Wake up! There is nothing wrong with us! We carry a beautiful knowledge that has been passed down (at great cost) through an unbroken line. Our sages wrote so much on why those who follow this gentile messiah are no longer Jewish. That doesn't seem to matter to them. They will continue to proclaim their love of a Jewish state while carrying within them the seeds for its demise. They are utterly incapable of understanding that Judaism and Christianity are completely different on fundamental levels. Let the messianics join Ann Coulter in her quest to "make us completed Jews". I for one will do as my ancestors did: resist and stay true to our faith.

it is that there has never been one correct way to be Jewish. EVER. The story of the Jewish religion is a story of a wide array of beliefs, which continued evolving through the centuries, always in contact and in dialogue with other peoples and religions. 

The Messianic Jews I've met know Hebrew and Halakhah better than most American Jews. and they know their scripture better than Israelis. 

How does allowing Messianic Jews to have a life free of persecution in Israel endanger other Jews (or that ever unsettling, shifting, and fluid category of Judaism)? It does not.

It is just that the some people in the Israeli government feel that their identity (or political support) is so fragile, they cannot tolerate difference and diversity.

good article, Roi. proofreaders at Jewcy could make it better.

wait, is that guy in the top picture robin williams?

Mika:

I'm not sure Jewish history is completed, so the lesson isn't fully developed.  Right now, as far a I can conclude, I have no idea what's happening other than we still have to figure something out.

No one said the Messianics can't live in Israel, they just made an argument, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court, that they still possess citizenship.  The court didn't agree, but it wasn't unreasonable to say that they were of another religion.

This brings us to their treatment by the Haredi--and like I said, there are a few things we still have to figure out.  

But if the Messianics were truly Jewish, all 15,000, there wouldn't be 120 congregations.  There would be 1650 congregations, all scrambling for a minyan.  That's Jewish.   

What do Jesus, the apostles, the authors of the new Testament, the first pope, the first five Christian patriarchs of Jerusalem and the oldest surviving Christian sect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya) have in common?

"The term "Jewish Christian" is commonly used in the scholarly literature to denote early believers in Jesus who were not from a Gentile background but of Jewish stock (all of Jesus' twelve disciples, therefore, as well as Paul, were "Jewish Christians"). The term frequently has an additional nuance; it indicates those followers of Jesus who remained faithful to the Jewish law, the Torah; from this standpoint Jesus' brother James was a Jewish Christian but Paul was not. This latter group of Torah-observant Christians is sometimes described as consisting of "Christian Jews," rather than "Jewish Christians," in order to emphasize that their Jewishness remained as important or more important to them than their belief in Jesus' messiahship. 

As to the question of whether or not "Jewish Christian" is a justifiable term for contemporary Christians of Jewish background, such as myself — this is more complicated, partly because being Jewish is both a matter of ancestry and a matter of religious belief and practice. The question of whether Christians of Jewish background are Jewish is a subset of the larger and disputed "Who is a Jew" question, which is a matter of controversy both within and between the three main branches of Judaism and within the secular state of Israel. From the point of view of (orthodox) Jewish religious law, Jews who convert to Christianity remain Jews, albeit apostate ones. However, in the case of Brother Daniel, a Jewish convert and a Carmelite monk who applied for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, the Israeli Supreme Court refused to accept this definition because the past centuries of persecution of Jews by Christians meant that in most Jews' minds "Jew" and "Christian" had become opposites. 

My own religious practice is not Jewish; I do not, for example, try to keep the kosher laws or to observe the Sabbath. (Neither, however, do most Jews worldwide.) My religious identity for the past 30 years or so has been Christian. Culturally, however, my identity has strong Jewish elements. I read and speak Hebrew, identify with, while remaining critical of many aspects of, the state of Israel, and feel comfortable going to synagogue. I think of myself, therefore, as, in several important senses, Jewish, and I think that many of those who know me, both Jews and Christians, would agree. But I expect that many, probably most, Jews would disagree, especially when confronted with the abstract issue rather than with me as a person. For them, I am not a Jew; for myself, I am. Since "Jew" is not a term with a sharp definition but a social construction, it seems to me that there is room in the world for both views."

Joel Marcus is an author and Professor of New Testament and Christian Origins at Duke Divinity School.  

It seems to me that anyone, and I mean anyone, who sincerely and freely chooses to identify as a Jew, to put his/her lot with one of history most persecuted minorities, deserves our respect and recognition.  These people are reviving an historic stream of Judaism.  Let’s honor,celebrate, and welcome them into the great tent of Judaism.  As Roi hints at the end of his article,you cannot reject them without excluding many other Jews whose identity falls outside the norm.          

First of all, the article is well written and does lay a finger on the issue.

 Secondly, there have been many who have been proclaimed messiah.  For example: Simon (ca. 4 BC), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled; Athronges (ca. 3 BC); Judas of Galilee (?), son of Hezekiah/Ezekias, a member of the Zealots faction who led a bloody revolt against a Roman census in AD 6. (JA18); Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC - AD 30-?), a wandering prophet and teacher who was crucified by the Romans; Theudas (? - 46), who attempted a short-lived revolt against the Romans before being slain. (JA20.5.1); Menahem ben Judah (?), allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader; Vespasian, c.70, according to Josephus[3] ; Simon bar Kokhba (?- ca. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War; Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440-470, convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster; Ishak ben Ya'kub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani (684-705), who led a revolt in Persia against the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan; Yudghan (?), a disciple of Abu 'Isa who continued the faith after Isa was slain; and more.

 Many Sages were involved here too.  If determining who messiah is or will be is clear cut and simple, why all the confusion?

 The bottom line is that many attrocities were visited upon Israel in the name of Jesus.  This is difficult to overlook.  However, as we can see from the article, some of those Jews who believe in Jesus do hold on to their identity and practice.  Those who do should not be turned away from klal Israel.

It would be good for each and every person to first become unbiasly educated in what the Torah truly teaches and the prophecys of the Tenach before making judgemental statements about people's faith walks.  The issue is in what a person believes and then how that person carries out and practices that belief.   Opinions are like a.......s   everyone has one.  The only way to know the truth...  that is HaShem's truth... is to study and learn what was truly written in Torah and stop adding what seems to feel good and subtracting what is inconvenient and then to seek a true heart to heart communication with the Holy One of Israel...  To practice and live the VÁhavtah... Devarim 6:5 and let HaShem be the righteous judge.

 Believing in Messiah... whether he be either Shneerson or Yeshua does not change the blood in his/her veins.  It does not change one's genes...  If one is born a Jew... then they are a Jew... just as a leopard can not change its spots! As previously commented upon...  Hitler doesn't care which sect a Jew follows or even if they are athiest or Buddist. 

 

 

The question was posted: "If Messianic Jews are targets of antisemitism like what occurred in Nazi Germany (in which they are targeted as Jews regardless of their conversion to Christianity) they probably should be allowed to immigrate, I would hope, under a special provision.  But are they actually targets of such acts now?"

The answer is YES! I belong to a Fully Jewish Synagogue which is Messianic. (USA) A few months back we had a NAZI SWASTIKA spray painted onto the street side outside wall. Jews don't consider us Jews, and the Christians look sideways at us, but Anti-Semitics don't discriminate. To them a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

 Really interesting article.  Makes me see the "Jews for Jesus" phenomenon in a new light.  I guess that if we Jews take historic pride in claiming Jesus as one of our own, it is hypocritical of us to reject Jews who believe in him as a Jewish massiah.  While I do not subsribe to such thinking, I am willing to respect those who do.  Thanks for the article, roi.

I agree with you completely. I've always been troubled by this policy. I studied a Messianic Jewish community for my sociology of religion class, and their love and dedication to Israel is unbelieviable. There was not one person that I interviewed who did not seem him or herself as Jew, and the support for Israel is total. These people love to celebrate the Sabbath, the love Jewish history, they study Hebrew, and are knoweledgable of the Torah, it makes absolutely no sense to me why Israel rejects them. I know many Israelis who do not believe in God, so why is it suddenly such a problem for these people to have a varied belief in God or his son? A person's personal belief should make no difference, because Israel protects Jews who are Jewish in culture and self-identity not strict belief (despite the fact that Messianic Jews have a much stricter adherence to Jewish laws and practices than most Israelis I meet.)

I feel moved to try to clear up a few things.  First:  the word Christian is derived from the word Christ.  Christ means "anointed one" in Greek.  A person who believes that Jesus is the "messiah" or "anointed one" is a Christian.  So Jews for Jesus by default is a Christian movement.  It doesn't matter if they were born Jews or converted Jews or whatever.  If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah then you are by default a "CHRIST-IAN."  I mean do people really think we are so stupid that we don't understand etymology, did we just forget that this is what Christian means?  Second: it is not religiously defining that people paint swastikas on Christian churches it doesn't make the people that worship there Jews.  Hitler or anti-semitism does not define Jewish or Israeli identity nor should it.  If that were true every person who has mistakingly been called a Jew or experienced anti-Jewish talk is a Jew.   No doubt for some this does define their identity but I hardly think that this is a measure of Jewishness. 

I'm not Jewish.  My parents aren't Jewish.  My brother is not Jewish.  I'm not Jewish. Yet...

My parents began attending a Messianic Jewish Synagogue shortly before I was born.  All my life I've been around these Messianic Jews.  This winter I even married a Messianic Jew.  She was also raised in Messianic Judaism and made Aliyah at 16 years old.  She left her comfortable upper-middle class American life at 18 and served in the Israeli Army.  She learned Hebrew when she arrived in Israel and served as a lonely soldier.  She continued to live in Israel until the summer of last year so that we could marry in America.

We are moving back to Israel on September 18th where we will get jobs, raise children, serve in the reserves, and remain until we die.  I say this because this is the context from which I say the rest of my comments.  This me who gives you my input on this young (and yet old) movement called Messianic Judaism.

Not being Jewish, I have had the opportunity to see Jews from an outside perspective.  Being part of a Messianic Jewish community all my life, I've had teh opportunity to see Jews from a very close outside perspective.

 Messianic Jews come in all shapes and sizes.  Some want nothing more than to leave their Jewishness at the door of Christianity.  After all... being Jewish is hard.  Some will give you a look to kill you for saying the C (Christian) word in their presence.  But the vast majority (maybe 95%) that I've run into fall somewhere in between.  They operate similar to Reform Jews in that they drive on Saturdays, they know most of the traditional liturgy but prefer something upbeat and new as well, they strongly identify as Jews, and they love Israel (especially if they've never visited -- Romanticized Israel).  Most of the Messianic Jewish synagogues I've been to (about 30) have a Torah that they read from weekly.  The men wear Kipot and Talitot.  They don't eat pork or shellfish (though many do mix meat and dairy -- the distinction they see is between what's in the Bible and what the Sages said).

I've also been to synagogues in US and Israel and not seen a tremendous difference.  The differences I saw would not be apparent to a complete outsider... that's for sure.  On Yom Kippur two years ago, I was in Jerusalem and went from a Messianic Jewish service to the service at the Great Synagogue.  They both read from siddurim and both looked the same (except the Messianic Jewish synagogue was about 50 people and the Great Synagogue was 500).

I'd say that if Hitler was around, he probably would have tried to kill both groups.  I'd say if a suicide bomber was around, he probably would have tried to kill both groups.  Certainly the Messianic Jewish Israeli that spoke this past Sunday in and Israel discussion group we have in our Messianic Jewish synagogue didn't notice any difference.  He was a commander of a special unit in Givati and he didn't mention that the Arabs in Gaza didn't shoot at him but singled out the REAL JEWS in his unit.

It sounds silly when I write this but to deny these Jews Israeli citizenship (which the Interior Ministry tried to do but the Supreme Court denied) is really happening.  Ultimately this is up to you all to decide.  I'm not Jewish.  I can't decide.  But if you all won't help these poor Jews when the trouble comes (and it's already begun), at least there are those like me who will.  But was that enough for Anne Frank?

It seems to me that much of the loathing felt for Messianic Jews has to do with the fact they've chosen to follow a prophet who belongs to history's oppressor - the Christians. As Ben-Yehuda stated, nobody gets too stirred up about atheist or Buddhist Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, has belonged to the Nazis, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the WASPs. Jews still make this mental connection.

It's important to understand that the oppression committed in the name of Jesus was a contamination. Modern Christians, and Messianic Jews too, are no longer about oppression. I say let them be. They're harmless.

And they're still Jews.

Maybe you'd prefer a different measure of Jewishness. Like. . . not Jesus.  But isn't that a little shallow?

I agreed on the Greek origins of "Christ".

Messianic comes from Messiah which is English for the Hebrew word Mashiach which means "anointed one".  So they believe Jesus was the anointed one.  Would those who believed Shneerson was the Messiah, "anointed one", be Christians?  It seems the selection of Messianic Jews to be negatively labeled and ostracized is unwarranted and boils down to historical prejudice (though completely understandable still not acceptable).

Maybe you'd prefer a different measure of Jewishness. Like. . . not Jesus. But isn't that a little shallow?

Yes that would be shallow but if you are 'for Jesus' as the messiah this would make you a Christian. One need only read what the early church fathers had to say about that or crack a Talmud to see that this is definitive.

Would those who believed Shneerson was the Messiah, "anointed one", be Christians?

Yes actually I think so... maybe Shneersons.

I also don't believe it is Israel's place to discriminate this way but I do believe that Christians who pretend to be or pretend to still be Jewish is a deliberate Trojan horse. Just because the members of the group really really really believe that their core beliefs should not be a reflection on whether they should be considered Christian or Jewish does not mean that thoughtful people should not call into question their assertion. You might call that prejudice but I believe it is the act of categorization which is necessary for any person to understand their world. We can say how wonderful trees are and that there is no difference between all trees in the world but a pine tree is still a pine tree and an oak tree is still an oak tree. They are the same and they are different and this is good. Differences are good, differences are necessary for us to understand ourselves and others. Let's not pretend that the whole world is Jewish when they are clearly not and lets not pretend that the word Christian no longer mean those that believe Christ was Christ in whatever form that might believe Christ to be.  If one does not believe that Christ was Christ then that person would probably not be a Christian and then they would have to think about what they would want to be instead. 

Setting the Facts Straight:

Christianity didn't develop as such until a few hundred years later.  Those who followed Jesus (first disciples etc...) were actually not called christians at all.  They were mishichim, (messianics) which is derived from Messiah, (Mashiach) bascially messiah followers.  They of course were all Jewish and Practiced Judaisim.  Christianity as a whole was not a real religion until Constantanople.  Furthermore, most Jews believe in a Messiah, that there is, was, or will be one.  Does that mean that suddenly the Messiah will come, and the Jews will believe in him and it yet will then again make a new religion and Jews won't be Jews? 

Also, as far as Messianic authors go to a previous comment, the whole new testament is written by messiancs ( Jews who followed Jesus as the Messiah) and the Bible (old and new testament) have both stood the test of time. 

So many Jews do not support Israel, forget their Jewish origin and assimilate out there in the wilderness.

And here we have people who are proud to be Jews, whatever would be the way they express it, who are proud to be part of the Zionist dream of building and contributing to Israel as the home for Jewish people, but this country throws them out.  Miserable silly country!  Can’t you see your true allies?

The Zionist idea states that Jews should have a country to live in.  EVERYBODY that believes in this idea and is willing to contribute and even sacrifice for this idea should be highly welcomed by Israel.  It should never be the question of whether this is a Jew or what kind of a Jew he or she is.  This is a very dangerous question that, as Roi pointed out so well, can cause a lot of harm.

If you are a Zionist and you want to be in and contribute to Israel – the country should be thankful to you and do anything it can to help you do it;  regardless of your private beliefs.

Silly country! Wake up!!

the question that arises from Roi's article is an interesting one, and I think many of you have made very good and prudent points. However, I still think that there is one question left and it has to do with  having Jesus as your savior and still being Jewish. How does that work?  I once had a Hassidic teacher in Israel that told me that Judaism is a very person thing, if one truly sees themselves as Jewish and "tries" to do things according to what he or she thinks being a "good jew" is then he or she is Jewish. I always had qualms with this idea, but today, I think that there may be some truth to it. Why are they more or less Jewish then any of us, and as a Jew that does not follow all 613 Mitzvot and does not go to pray every day, and does not keep kosher yet still tries to be a good Jew are they less or more Jewish then I am? I would love to hear your thoughts.

For all of you defending the theological and historical accuracy of Messianic Judaism, tell me: what is the difference between a Christian and a Messianic Jew, other than personal identity?  By the logic expressed here, all it would take for Christians to be Jews would be for them to call themselves Jews and believe they're Jews.  Then, by further logic expressed here, they would (or should be) all be eligible for aliyah.  Any Christian anywhere who thinks he's a "complete Jew" (as they all probably would if they thought about it historically) and loves Israel and knows their Torah (as many Evangelicals do) should then be free to move to Israel, right?   And no one sees the problem with that?  By the multi-culture arguments put forth here, that would be great, because they all love Israel (as the Evangelical community here in America does) and all support Israel (ditto).  We would have a truly flourishing Israel where no one who claims to be a Jew or wants to be a Jew is left out, which of course sounds beautiful on paper.  Only problem, of course, would be that Israel would no longer actually be a Jewish state (regardless if the entire population now calls themselves "completed Jews"), it would be the latest in the long line of Christian states, just one in which most citizens don't eat meat.

I understand this sentiment.  I actually believe it is AS dangerous or more than the anti-semitism that results in the death of Jews.  One is the extermination of the Jewish people and the other is the REPLACEMENT of the Jewish people.  As I said before, I'm not Jewish and this is something that I, personally, have to be very careful of.  My wife is Jewish and I want my kids to be raised Jewish so how do I do this other than to follow along and create a Jewish household?  But how do I follow along without coming across as a PRETEND Jew?

And if enough people like me have the same problem, don't we either end up diminishing what it means to be a Jew or end up stealing that which isn't ours?  This is an issue in Messianic Judaism.  Smart men and women are wrestling with the question even now.  There are some good ideas out there.  I think it comes back to what someone said earlier when they said Israel has some things to figure out.  Well so does Messianic Judaism.

I think what is important to this discussion is for everyone to know that Messianic Judaism is Jewish enough to care about whether it is inadvertently diminishing Judaism.  It is doing something about it.  Remember, most of these Messianic Jews think pretty much the way you guys do.  A Christian that puts on a talit and does some Jewish stuff isn't Jewish all of the sudden.  They are equally concerned with (and actively addressing) the problem of imitation.  Look at me.  If anyone was going to be an imitator it would be me.  I have every opportunity.  But I know the damage it would cause and you know who taught me?  Messianic Jews.

A question is asked above:  How are Messianic Jews different from Christians? Answer: In many ways.  For example, MJ observe the sabbath, and other Jewish holidays like PAssover, Purim, Chanukah and Yom Kippur. In their synagouge they chant prayers in Hebrew form traditional Jewish liturgy. They say Kaddish for those who have passed on.  They keep kashrut. and they bar and bat mitzvah their children. It is for all these reasons - and more - that many Christians do not accept the MJ's as Christians.  Does that answer your question?      

 

Let’s really set the fact straight:

The issue here is not a proto-christian group or a sub
segment of a proto-Jewish cult.  For
example, no one disputes that the people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls were
from the same national origin as today’s members of the Jewish faith but do
they share a faith?  I think not.  The way Judaism is defined today developed
for the most part in a world where the Second Temple was destroyed and rabbinic
Judaism took hold and developed.  The
rest of the world defines a ‘Jew’ as one that is a descendent of those who
struggle with a system set up in the rabbinic period.  For example thought historically the word Jew
might have meant Judean, nobody called the Karaites Jews though they were also
Judean.  The reason no one called them
Jews, was due to their not adhering to the system of rabbinic authority.  These early proto-Christians to which you
speak of, do they exist today?  Is there
any evidence at all that they have had a continuous presence through
history?  Did these so called Jews for
Jesus live among Christians or did they live among Jews for the last 2000 or so
years?  I have found no historical
evidence for their existence.  The Jews
for Jesus movement or Messianic Movement is a new idea.  If you believe that they owe their existence
to some sort of intellectual idea from the early proto-church then from where
do they get their texts or historical documents to define that belief?  If you believe the only evidence you need is
the Christian Bible which you call the New Testament, then do you exclude the
books of the Bible that explicitly distance themselves from the Jews or any
proto-Christian Church?  Or do you
exclude the texts that you would say reflect a Christian anti-Jewish
perspective.  You can’t have it both ways
my friend.  Feel free to consult various
historical books on the subject.  

Jews believe in all sorts of things but Judaism does not
believe that a Messiah has come.  Those who
do believe this tend to not be of the Jewish faith anymore; they tend to be
Christians or the followers of Shabatai Tzvi or a subset of the followers of
Shneerson, who by the way are being distanced from by mainstream Chabad and certainly
distanced from by the rest of the Jewish world. 
Please feel free to provide academic evidence for your claims.  Since you are making a claim that is counter
to academic or popular opinion then I believe the onus is on you to prove them
true.   

The person who brought up the Shneersonites raises the decisive point. Whatever the feelings of some individuals here, there isn't the slightest chance that an adherent of any other messianic strain of Judaism would be denied equal rights as an Israeli. So, by the lights of the the principles the Israeli government actually operates on, they owe the Messianic Jews full and equal rights and protection.

 

Setting the Facts Straight:

Christianity didn't develop as such until a few hundred years later. 
Those who followed Jesus (first disciples etc...) were actually not
called christians at all.  They were mishichim, (messianics) which is
derived from Messiah, (Mashiach) bascially messiah followers. 

Does it matter if the term Christian did or did not exist at that time?  Christian is still the word that defines this group.  Please see my comments that you are responding to.  Gravity as a word did not exist either but the phenomenon certainly did. 

They of
course were all Jewish and Practiced Judaisim. 

They were not Jewish, some may have been Judeans and if they were Judeans it means they were part of the sacrificial cult that existed around the Second Temple.  As the commentator above stated: normative Judaism as practiced today began to exist after the destruction of the Second Temple, after Jesus lived and after the disciples would have been alive  

Christianity as a whole
was not a real religion until Constantanople. 

Christianity did not become a state sponsored religion until Constantinople. It was a real religion just not very fixed in practice or ideology.  Semantics are important.

Furthermore, most Jews
believe in a Messiah, that there is, was, or will be one. 

The normative Jewish tradition believes with perfect faith that the Messiah will come as a person or an age, but Jews do not believe that one has come in the past.  If that were true then we would all be living in a perfect state of peace in the land of Israel, last time I checked that hadn't happened. 

Does that
mean that suddenly the Messiah will come, and the Jews will believe in
him and it yet will then again make a new religion and Jews won't be
Jews? 

It means that everyone will recognize that there is One God and there will no longer be any need for denominations because it will be natural to observe the obvious Law of God.  Also all of sudden everyone will agree.  This is the messianic idea in Judaism. Obviously for Jews this hasn't happened yet, "two Jews three opinions."  After the Messiah this will change to billions upon billions of people with one Truth. Like it says in Zechariah 14:9 which Jews recite in every prayer service:

And Adonai shall be Ruler over all the earth; in that day shall Adonai be One, and God's name one.

 Funny I don't see three in there, nope no Trinity, go figure...

Also, as far as Messianic authors go to a previous comment, the
whole new testament is written by messiancs ( Jews who followed Jesus
as the Messiah) and the Bible (old and new testament) have both stood
the test of time. 

The later books of the Christian Bible are written and the whole kit and caboodle finally edited by people who wanted to distance themselves from Jesus' Jewish roots and from Judaism as a whole.  This was a safe course of action considering at the time the Jews were rebelling in Judea in the Bar Kochba rebellion and the Jews weren't well thought of in the Roman Empire.

So it appears that you are not correct on any accounts.  Thanks for playing 

Terrific article.

I believe that a separation between religion and state is fundamental for the citizen's rights and an open minded society.

Either Jesus is or isn't the messiah. Both cannot be true.

Either the messiah has come or he hasn't.

"Other Jews argue that messianics have ceased to be Jews because they revere Jesus as God incarnate, or because they worship a triune Deity. From the perspective of Judaism as it has been practiced for three millennia, there is indeed a problem in imagining God as taking a bodily form (see Deuteronomy 4:15) or as comprising distinct persons (Deuteronomy 6:4). But other beliefs constituting no less serious a departure from biblical tradition are smiled upon in our community. For instance, our liberal denominations reject the ancient faith that the Torah was received by Moses from God, thus reducing much of Judaism to mere folklore. 

The gravity of this is evident from the teachings of Maimonides. In his encyclopedic "Mishneh Torah," he lists 24 categories of people who may forfeit eternal life. One is a Jew who attributes bodily form to God. One is a Jew who believes in multiple deities. Another is one who denies that even a single word in the Torah comes from God. 

To revile messianic Judaism while embracing Jewish movements that deny the revelation of the Torah at Sinai, then, makes little sense. "

From David Klinghoffer

http://www.jewsweek.com/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Article%5El1757&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Opinions 

For
instance,
our liberal denominations reject the ancient faith that the Torah was received
by Moses from God, thus reducing much of Judaism to mere folklore.

Even the most liberal movements within Judaism believe that the Bible is a vehicle for the Jewish people to express their understandings of a world with God.  The Bible itself has many perspectives on what that relationship between people and God consists of.  Even though the most Liberal Jew might not believe that the Bible is God given they do believe that it contains truth.  That being said, the most liberal movements believe that the exercise in engaging with Torah (in it's broad or limited sense) serves to engage the Jew with a single God, not three or some blend of Mithraist or pagan understanding of some Zeus like Godling.  Even the most liberal of Jews would draw the line at worshiping a person and not God.  Even the most liberal of Jews learns that in kindergarten.  If you believe the Messiah (or it's Greek word Christ) has come, you automatically become a Christian.  Jesus as Messiah = Jesus as Christ.  Messianic Jews = Christian Jews = Oxymoron 

 Oxymoron is another Greek term, I implore you to look it up.

Thanks 

Did God speak of a second part to the Torah called the New testament as if Torah was some sort of Harry Potter book that required a sequel?

Yes.

 Yermiyah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord [*husband] over them, saith HaShem. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people; 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. [text from The 1917 Jewish Publication Society Tanakh]

 *from the jewsforjudaism reference "the Jewish response to Missionaries"

Hashem still loves his people "replacement theology" is a LIE.  (the church will never replace Israel)

i was just having dinner w/ a friend who works in intellectual property and we were talking about my "jesus was a kike" design.  amusing to see it pilfered here... theft is, after all, the sincerest form of flattery.

The critical difference, such as it is, between the Schneersonites and the Messianic Jews is who is on the receiving end of the Messiah claim. As it so happens, people who believe that Jesus is/was the messiah already have a handy label - they're called Christians. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, and while Christians can be many wonderful things, they cannot, in fact, be Jews and Christians at the same time. The Chabadniks, on the other hand, do not officially believe that Schneerson was the messiah, which is (at least at face value) a critical difference between Lubavitchers and the Messianics.

That said, there's no excuse for being rotten to the Messianics, or denying them a equal civil rights in Israel. There's also no reason, however, to condescend to their desire to be regarded seriously as Jews.

Conservative and Reform Jews in Israel are equally discriminated against: professionally, socially, etc.-- as is anyone who does not side with the Orthodox camp. The State will ultimately have to come to a definitive position on whether it is a secular, semi-theocratic or other form of government.  Difficult to do, I know, in the political climate in Israel, but it will happen -- probably not as the result of a single confrontation bringing it to a head; more likely as the result of many smaller challenges to the present arrangement.Keep them articles coming, Roi.

I agree with you dan.  i think that the issue is wither or not israel chooses to be a secular government for all her citizens.  Roi's intro is well written, but is he correct to say that there is equal place for reform and secular Jews in Israel?  Can a reform conversation be recognized in Israel?  Can a secular couple marry in Israel?  and what about the Arab israeli citizens?  Where do they fit in the "Zioinst mosiac"?  It is not jut the messianic Jews who need full and equal recognition. 

"Can a reform conversation be recognized in Israel?" opps; meant to write conversion not conversation:  Although a reform, conversation is a good start :)

If a person is born Jewish, even only a little Jewish, and change their religious beliefs, does their blood change?

 My thinking is that if anyone wants to label themselves as Anything, as long as it does not interfear with anyone else's pursuit of happines then we should all learn to co-exist.

All great, strong, powerful, well respected countries celebrate diversity among it's people. Seperation between church(synagogue) and State is a must to survive in a peaceful state.

I belive in one G-D, call him what you like, and I believe that He made us All..and..imiange that he made Us All Different..There is something to that and I take notice to that and consider myself lucky to be born into a country that will allow me to read the Tora, Qu'ran and the Gospels and speak openly about what I believe, and futhermore  I like to look for what we have in common, not how we are different.

Everyone deserves freedom to live a happy good life!!!

 

I was born into a Christian family.  In college I got involved with the Messianic Jewish movement.  A few years ago I converted to Orthodox Judaism, and am an observant Jew.  I say this so you will know where I come from.  I have known the gamut of Messianics-from Jews for Jesus to the "Torah observant" variety.  There is one thing that they all have in common.  Ultimately, they are all trying to get Jews to see Jesus.  The truth is, this group is nothing but an evangelistic group who want to create "fulfilled Jews".  The most "observant" (and I say this lightly, as they know nothing of Halacha) of them are simply (as it was nicely put to me) "trying to make Jews feel at home" so they will come and hear about Jesus-or Yeshua as his more Jewish friendly name is called.  While I truly believe that these people believe that they are keeping a part of their "Jewish identity", it is their belief in Jesus that defines them.  If you ask any Messianic Jew what the core of their practice and faith is, the answer is not Torah or Halacha-it is always a faith in Jesus as their savior, and as the fulfillment of (which may or may not mean doing away with) the Torah.  No Messianic Jew feels that they are bound by their Jewish covenant.  They all feel that it is thru Jesus that they come to Hashem.  This makes them Christians.  This is important, because their goal is and will always be to share this faith with their 'unfulfilled Jewish brothers'.  Can we really be open to this?  I'm not a fan of persecution, but we really need to be wary of them and realize they are not these innocent people.  To allow them in like a Jew is to be naive about who and what they really are-evangelists of another religion!

Daniel K--who must aim to be wrong every time he writes something, has us convinced that he is wrong with this comment:

The person who brought up the Shneersonites raises the decisive point.
Whatever the feelings of some individuals here, there isn't the
slightest chance that an adherent of any other
messianic strain of Judaism would be denied equal rights as an Israeli.
So, by the lights of the the principles the Israeli government actually operates on, they owe the Messianic Jews full and equal rights and protection.

To correct young Daniel's poor insight, Jews who believe that the late Rebbe was Moshiach are in every way Jewish and also hold all Jewish law. Messianic Jews are normally not Jews at all by birth and are Christian--further they hold a belief unrelated to the belief of some in Chabad--they believe that a mythical person who did not live in history was the messiah, that this person was killed by the Romans at behest of the Jews. The historical fact is that there was a figure in history who lived about 150 years before the claimed date but he bears little resemblance to the person claimed in the so-called New Testament. The late LubavitcherRebbe lived a documented life and performed miraculous deeds on behalf of the Jewish people. The criteria set forward by the Rambam concerning the template for moshiach is substantially fulfilled by the life and deeds of the late Rebbe. Even if one assumes the Christian story on its face, there messiah cannot qualify on Jewish terms in any way. I do not believe that Schneerson was the messiah but it is a legitimate possibility.

We can disagree but we can NEVER say that a Chabadnik is non-Jewish in the same way as a Christian--this is really wrong headed----OR--that a messianic Jew is equal to a Chabad Jew since they are both equally mistaken about the messiah.

A born Jew is a Jew--especially one that has mastered and honors all the mitzvot--and someone who makes an incorrect and offensive claim concerning the messiah is very different from someone who has a legitimate although minority opinion.

I have to admit, I'm really surprised at the number of people who seem to be Jewish who have no problem calling "Jews for Jesus" or messianic Jews, just another Jewish group.  They are clearly not Jews.  If you follow some sort of racial understanding Judaism then maybe at best the very few members who can actually say they were "born" into Judaism are apostates and the rest are just Christians who like the flavor of Judaism to enhance their Christianity.  I for one am uncomfortable letting the likes of neo-nazis or hitler define who is a Jew but as that is one reason for the Law of Return to be in existence then in times of great distress in which some sort of nazi group is threatening those who have Jewish blood, then fine let them in.  But that isn't the case today.  I for one am not a racist.  Racism does not define my Jewish beliefs.  My beliefs define my Jewish beliefs and how I feel about Judaism as a whole.  For those who ask, what about the Chabad Jews that believe Shneerson is the messiah?  I agree with their assertion.  Why have a double standard in that case? It seems to me that they should be considered something outside of Judaism, as well.  But let us be clear.  Shneerson has not made it into these "Chabadniks'" liturgy as representative of God but in "Messianic Judaism" Jesus has.  Shneerson has not been the source of salvation in these "Chabadniks'" theology.  However in "Messianic Judaism" Jesus is.  These aren't small differences.  This is the difference between a form of idolatry and Judaism.  People who studied Judaism's take on the Bible understand pretty clearly that Judaism was born as a polemic against such idolatry. 

Sure we can all get along.  When the messiah comes, that's part of the gig. :-)

The criteria set forward by the Rambam concerning the template for
moshiach is substantially fulfilled by the life and deeds of the late
Rebbe.

Say what?  Funny I just got back from Israel and I don't remember seeing the 3rd Temple, or King David's descendants reinstated as monarchs.  Last time I checked the great Sanhedrin has not met for a while (like a couple thousand years give or take).  I can't remember the last time I saw an animal sacrifice on the Temple Mount.  The Shemita year also really didn't meet with applause recently in Israel.  So far Rabbi Shneerson on the rambam Messiah scale is batting 0 for 5.  Now I know that some of you are itching to say, "but wait," the messiah is only there to herald in those things and they can be accomplished after the fact according to Rambam, but the Rambam also says that during the lifetime of the Messiah there will be world peace and Israel will live in peace.  So now Rabbi Shneerson, though a respectable accomplished rabbi is batting 0 for 7.   Now I know that Rambam said that all these things won't be clear because of Talmudic disagreements but you have got to be pretty good at creative interpretation to believe that Rabbi Shneerson is the Messiah.  I have no problem with people who say, potential messiah, but certainly not the Messiah.  But my guess is this is not unlike the way the early Christians started, soon the Rebe will have died for our sins etc...

Oy  

Perhaps it should be stated that not all "Christians" and or "Messianic Jews" believe in the "divinity" of Yeshua, nor do they worship Yeshua.

Sure the majority of these Trinitiarians believe Jesus was God, especially since Constantine and the Nicean Creed.

The Brit Hadasha, does not teach trinitarianism either.

But the early believers did not believe in this trinitarian doctrine, nor do many of the Messianic believers.

Yeshua was the Son of God, he is the Messiah, and through Him there is redemption to the Father, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

All the early believers in Yeshua were Jews, at least for the first 15 years after the resurrection and even after the Gentiles came in on the scene they all were Torah observant.

They followed Moshe and not the Rabbis/ Pharisees.

S