A Lefty in Israel

Look on the bright side. You could be an ever-so sensitive anti-gervernment "peace" protester in:

Russia, North Korea, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afgahanistan, China, Venezulea, Belarus, Libya, Sudan, Zimbabwee ect, ect.

You are lucky enough to be in a nation that generously tolerates "peace protesters" like yourself while any of the above nations would consider you a pernicious fifth-column and traitors in a time of war and act accordingly.

By the way..the media is up to their eye-balls with anti-Israel big mouths.

They ignore you because they WANT to demonize all Israelis and if you guys go down with the ship, the "progressives" do not want to shed a tear for you.

Please wake up (and grow up).

As upsetting as it has been to read the news from Gaza these past three weeks, I have been so impressed, moved, humbled and GLAD to read about the protests in Israel (even if they are small and targets of nationalist resentment). It colors my feelings about having Israeli citizenship and in some strange way, even makes me feel prouder to be a Jew. Please know that there are many American Jews who support Israeli protestors in every way we can. 

If you want to show the world that you are not just a bunch of hypocrites, marching around the safety of Tel Aviv while Israelis are risking their lives just to live, then march around town square in Sderot.

 

Somehow I think you won't.

Live in Israel, Stuart?

Somehow, I think you don't. 

The people of Sderot could use some human shields of the Rachel Corrie variety if Ms. Dolev is up for it.

Of course being a human shield in front of Hamas is different than the IDF.

Hamas see human shields as a bonus point, not a deterent.

 Somehow, I think you don't.

I do not live in Israel. But the fact is still that its very easy for this group to stay in the safe confines of Tel Aviv protesting a war that protects the civitzens of Sederot.

 Protest on the main square in that town to show how opposed you are to the war. If this war is wrong, then stand on the front lines and not safely hidden awy to say it.

 

you cant stay ,park be in front of a fire house ,you cant block the street by law or the entrance so the guys are right to cool you guys off bcz you wore blocking the fire trk exit , secnd the bj offer was with " Swallow"  or not?

When are you moving there to join the army? Put your ass where your yapper is! 

I'm not the one protesting from safety about how others should live in fear.

 

Whine much when you don't get your way? Cause you certainly seem to lack the ability to make cogent or coherent points.

"I'm not the one protesting from safety about how others should live in fear"

No, you're the one rooting for war at a safe distance.   And your ad hominen attacks are really sexy.

No one, not me, not the Israelis not anyone is 'rooting for war'. War is terrible and should be avoided at all costs.

But your insistence from your safety that it could be avoided no matter what is silly and hipocritical at the very least.

And since you are the one who decided to start whining with 'go join the army' and other personal attacks, I find it amusing that you do not like being called out on it.

 Now do try to make a point. Maybe use a fact or two even?

 

"And since you are the one who decided to start whining with 'go join the army' and other personal attacks, I find it amusing that you do not like being called out on it."

I have no idea what you're talking about. You joining the army is merely the logical extension of what you've been saying. But I guess "whining" to you means "disagreeing." This is so damned simple: You're baiting protesters for no reason other than the fact that you disagree. See, two can do that.

"But your insistence from your safety that it could be avoided no matter what is silly and hipocritical at the very least."

Really? How is it "hipocritical?" By the way, the word has a "y" in it.

Aw, does using spell check make you feel superior. How nice for you.

 

Since  you have no clue, perhaps you should look above. I discussed the issues, you made an ad hominem attack. But hey, why deal with truth and facts when you seem to prefer attacks?

 As to why your silly insistence is just thjat, my point stands. Go to where the Israelis have to livew their livces in fear and proitest. If you think thew war could be avoidedd, go and be with those who have to suffer the endless Hamas rocket barrages - whose children are scarred for life, and who dont suffer massive causalties because they live in bomb shelters, not because Hamas is not trying to kill as many as they can.

 

Now, are you capable of answering and having a discussion, or is all you can do is whine (not disagree - I posted comments with facts, your 'go join the army' is exactly the 'baiting for no other than the fact that you disagree' that you speak of.)

 

So now. I explained your hypocrisy. Can you do anything to defend your poosition, or just keep attacking the messenger?

For those twerps who left derogatory comments...slimy

stuff of a sexual nature what you would say to someone who said the same things to your mother or sister?  It's at the level of a pre-teen.

For the person who suggested how lucky Sharon was that she lived in Israel instead of:

'Russia, North Korea, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon,' et al...I thought that Israel was a democracy.  Those tactics are what one would expect in a fascist

State.

When I was 16-17 I used to go to anti-war protests against the Vietnam war, to punch protestors, and noticed that when I ran forward and puched them-they were supposed to be protected by the police-the police only let the police dogs attack the protestors.

I was taken into police cars on more than one occasion, driven aroud the block by the police who gave me a pat on the back and let me go.

After going to Vietnam twice I protested against the war, and I never let a policeman touch me.  Some tried, but learned it was unhealthy for them. I'm not proud of that, and past it.

This conflict has its roots in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their homes, land, farms and what is happening in Gaza is the continuation of it.

What Vietnam taught me was to not trust what my leaders told/tell us, and to seek the truth.  To those who made horrible comments you are a very small person to do such a thing...and must have little to do.  I hope that you will in the future be able to make an intelligent comment.

To those who showed compassion to Sharon...you have a good heart and soul.

Shalom to all

Sharon, thank you for sharing with us this story. Yes as you acknowledge, it is hardly the most horrible amidst the harrowing brutality that Israel inflicts on all who stand in the way of colonization and genocide. But that doesn't make it any less terrible to be sexually assaulted and threatened. And we know that it can and probably will get worse. 

I do want to make however two comments, colored perhaps by the fact that I grew up in israel but live there no more. The reason the media in the West doesn't care about you is not because it is anti-Israel. On the contrary, the media, especially in the U.S., is extremely pro Israel. The European media are less so but not not by much. Even significant sectors of the Arab media are now pro-Israeli. I'm affraid that your perception of the world media has been tainted by Israeli propaganda. You know. Ha'olam kulo negdainu. It isn't true. The media supports what the political class supports. 

There is a growing wave of popular revulsion at Israel all over the world, but the political elites, including the media, are doing everything they can to buck the tide. Israel is not isolated. They don't do it out of love of course, but because Israel is an imperialist outpost, just as Herzl imagined it will be, "a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." Furthermore, the media doesn't cover radical demonstrators, and when it does, it belittles them. There is nothing unique about it with regards to Israel. It's the media's nature as a capitalist tool. Getting any media attention requires cultivating relations and creating "news" that fit them. And even then it's an uphill battle. Finally, the alternative media does cover radical Israelis. Enough? I don't know. But I think it is unfair to say you are not covered because of anti-Israel bias. The blog I write on is anti-Israel, and we covers Israeli radical. I've seen the same on other alternative media sites.

There is no doubt that people react in anger to Israel, fully justified anger over actions for which "the devil cannot devise a proper revenge". And some of this anger takes reactionary forms. How could it be otherwise? But to ask us to demonstrate for peace is not reasonable. Peace? With whom? With Olmert? With Barak? With the hundreds of Israelis that went for a picnic on the "hill of shame" to watch the destruction of Gaza while they laugh and second-guess the bombs? With David Grossman who thinks murder of children is a way of showing respect? With the 94% of Israelis who supported this racist, colonial punitive expedition?

There can be no peace with Israel. There can be only the defeat of Israel and the liberation of the Palestinian people. And that liberation will not happen by evanhanded UN resolutions that call everyone to keep quiet. It will not happen through sweettalk because no liberation ever happened that way. It will come through struggle, and victory over the opressor, and some of that struggle will be non-violent, and some of it will be violent. That's how liberation happens.  

Your brave "actions have brought you nearer". You deserve a great deal of respect from all of us. But don't stand in the middle. Choose the side of justice and liberty. 

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com

 

Today's (22.01.2009) Independent

 http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/patrick-cockburn-in-israel-detachment-from-reality-is-now-the-norm-1488583.html

Just look at this woman's magnificent courage!  She believes with all her heart in what she is doing.  And to my mind, she is speaking not to the reality of what Israel is, but the effulgent reality of what Judaism and Jewishness are, and to what Israel herself must become in order to survive.

Such a young nation, yet founded with the oldest traditions and teachings that can be found on the planet.  When people like Sharon Dolev lead, the leaders will follow.  Those who persecute her because of her Jewish witness for integrity, peace, and justice are really denying the essence of Jewishness and Judaism together.  Hearken well to her words, and to the words of others who seek to stand in the way of warfare.  They know that hatred and warfare are inimical to all of Jewish tradition, and to Judaism itself.

Thank you, Sharon, for your courage, your example, and your sufferings.

John Wilmerding

Brattleboro, Vermont USA

In every story of Israel, there is always a racist hater who comes on to spew. Usually spewing at Israel the hatred that he/she has.

 

You are yet another sorry example of why the Palestinians continue not to have peace. Listening to people like you keeps them in a state of war and the only state they have.

I do not live in Israel. But the fact is still that its very easy for

this group to stay in the safe confines of Tel Aviv protesting a war

that protects the civitzens of Sederot.

The war on Gaza hasn't protected anyone. The ceasefire lasted 6 months and Hamas not only honored it, they arrested other militants who fired rockets. In the meantime, Israel insisted on carrying out attacks and assassinations. When the IDF began bombing Gaza, there were dozens of rockets a day. It's not easy to protest in public and face sexual harassment but it is easy enough to justify a slaughter where you sit.

And telling Sharon she should go to Sderot is just plain silly when a) a few hundred people from Sderot signed a declaration against the war and b) other Israelis went there to watch the carnage. They sure weren't worried about the rockets!

No Palestinian needs Evildoer to tell them anything. Israel will attack any Palestinian anywhere (including Israeli citizens) as long as they are a threat to the demographic majority the Zionists want to engineer in Palestine.

And pretending Hamas honored the hudna is a joke.

Rockets came the entire time. Fewer perhaps, but still the whole time.

 And it is the Palestinians who call for a Juden-frie land. Only liars ignore the 1 million Arab citizens of Israel who, while certainly facing issues and obstacles, still enjoy more political freedoms than Arabs do anywhere else in the Middle East.

First of all, if it's that important whether I'm a different poster from evildoer, get the admin to check the IP address of our posts.

Look at the monthly distribution graphs of page 2 and tell me the hudna was not honored.

www.israelpolitik.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza_fact_sheet.pdf

And it should be noted that no Israelis were killed during the truce. When Israel initiated a war against Gaza, several were killed. It's just one more case of Israel callously risking its own people because it likes killing Palestinians and expanding its borders more than peace.

Some Palestinians may wish there were no Jews in Palestine so there'd be no one to engineer their ethnic cleansing. Whereas every Palestinian is a potential target by the IDF because of their race. The real question is whether the major factions are willing to reach a political settlement. Hamas is willing to accept a complete reversal of the 1967 occupation in exchange for no attacks.

Do you consider the right to live in your country without the constant threat of expulsion a 'political freedom'?

 

In all of the threads I've seen relating to the recent Israeli invsion of Gaza, the name of Sderot invariably is invoked, as the poster child for frightened and suffering Israelis under a constant barrage of Hamas rockets.

Yet facts on the ground tell a different story. To see what I mean (Stuart and others), I urge  you to visit the following report prepared fom Israeli intelligence sources: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e011.htm
.

The report shows two important things:  first, that during the ceasefire period the number of rockets coming from Gaza was low enough to count on the fingers of one hand; second, that none of the rockets fired - a total of 12 in six months! - came from Hamas.

I also recommend this article in Ha'aretz http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html.

It tells how it was Israel who broke the "truce" - which they had not honored in any case - by crossing the border into Gaza,  killing six Gazans and holding several families hostage in their own homes (with the absurd excuse that they were trying to destroy a tunnel Hamas was going to use to kidnap IDF soliders!). You can check this story against various other sources, by the way, Israeli included.

Perhaps more important, it reveals that Olmert and Barak were planning this invasion at least as far back as June 2008.

Finally, I am going to include a complete article by Janine Roberts, a highly respected Australian  jounalist. If after reading the article you think you can refute its conclusions - that the people of Sderot do NOT feel terrified or even threatened, and in fact were celebrating the peace they enjoyed until their own government changed all that - I would be happy to hear your arguments. Otherwise, please refrain (Stuart and others) from repeating Israeli government propaganda without doing the research. 

Here's the article:

 
500 Citizens of Sderot Contradict the Israeli Government

The removed Israeli government graph: 'Monthly distribution of rockets hits.'

By Janine Roberts

Much
has been made of Hamas' reported failure to honour last year's truce.
But, an extraordinary correspondence between Jewish residents of the
much-rocketed town of Sderot, nearby kibbutz, and the Palestinians
living within sight in the Gaza strip paints a very different picture
of that truce from that repeatedly given by the Israeli government.

Barrack
Obama was taken to Sderot last year to show him the effects of
rocketing. He remarked on how Israeli towns looked like American from
the air and offered his full support to the town’s citizens, promising
to invite its representatives to the White House soon after taking
office. At the time in mid-July Sderot was safe to visit. There had
been no casualties from rockets since the ceasefire started 4 weeks
earlier.

On July 12th 2008, a Gaza resident, using the pseudonym
of “Peaceman,” emailed friends in Sderot to say. “The situation is calm
… and this make people happy a lot, because there are no dead and
wounded [but] the border is still closed… I myself have been waiting
two years to go to Europe to study.’ Nevertheless ‘we have now a golden
opportunity to try to build a new world without violence.’

His
friends replied to say how much better it was now the rockets had
stopped. They told how they cycled along the Gaza borders and were
greeted with waves by Gaza residents. They revelled in the freedom from
danger. A joint children’s holiday was planned and greetings cards
exchanged. (See samples at end)

One such message read “I live
with my family in Kibbutz Beeri, close enough to Gaza to see the houses
and the sea. On weekends I ride my bike with my husband through the
fields along the border … I hope the violence will come to an end and
the Palestinian State will be established with peace between our
peoples and peace within each of our countries between the extremists
on each side. ”

Sderot is built on the lands of Najd, a
Palestinian village ethnically cleansed by Jewish militia in 1948. Its
residents probably fled into the Gaza strip. Most of Gaza’s population
is descended from such refugees. However, this history was not allowed
to prevent this growing friendship – nor were the deaths of people from
both towns in the months preceding the ceasefire.

The ceasefire
was still intact months after Obama’s visit. In October 2008 an Israeli
in Sderot, using the pseudonym “Hopeman,” emailed his friend in Gaza to
say: “We have lived for almost 5 months in a ceasefire situation. On my
side of the border, things returned to normal and we once again felt
safe. Kids played freely outdoors, streets filled once again with
people, and the constant fear of the rocket alerts disappeared. My kids
went to sleep in their room again, instead of the safe room, and I
could walk out to the fields surrounding the town without the fear of
being out in the open with nowhere to hide.”

On October 9th an
Israeli newspaper, the Star, headlined: ‘Israeli town celebrates end to
daily rocket fire. It reported: “Besieged residents of Sderot were
relieved by the quiet start to Yom Kippur, thanks to the ceasefire with
Hamas …Young boys horsed around on their bicycles, families hurried to
make last-minute purchases at the downtown supermarket, and food stands
did a steady business in shawarma and beer.”

“Everything is
different," exulted Jasmine Aboukrat, 25, sales clerk at the Cochovit
Dress Shop near Hagofer St, "People go out more." “Now you see all the
children outdoors, playing," said David Coyne, 38, who owns a candy
shop in the centre of town. "It's secure.”

The paper explained:
“For seven years, local residents barely went out at all. But, late
last June, under Egyptian mediation, the Israeli government reached a
ceasefire agreement with the Palestinian militant group Hamas. Since
then, with only a few violations, the rocket salvoes from Gaza have
stopped.”

Sderot is “a rambling community of boxy bungalows and
low-rise apartment blocks. interspersed by palm, cypress and eucalyptus
trees” with a library with nearly as many books in Russian as Hebrew,
reflecting its recent arrivals. Its people “say they are hugely pleased
with the new air of tranquillity that now permeates their town.”

The
newspaper also reported that there were no more “punitive Israeli
military incursions into the neighbouring strip – attacks that had been
a frequent and deadly feature of Palestinian existence prior to the
laying down of arms in June.”

But Hopeman emailed from Sderok:
“During this time I have been in touch with many friends of mine in
Gaza, and from them I heard a very dark and troubling reality…The siege
Israel had imposed on them continues. They have many power shortages
and very little fuel and cooking gas.”

On the 4th November, the
day when Americans were watching the results of the Presidential
election, the Israeli army broke the ceasefire by raiding the strip.
Six Palestinians were killed. Next day the Palestinians reacted as
could be expected by sending a shower of rockets and Israel immediately
slashed supplies of medicine, fuel, food, cooking gas for the 1.5
million people of Gaza. The number of truckloads fell from October’s
daily average of 123 trucks to less than 5 trucks. Some families were
reduced to easting bread made from animal feed. Others were reduced to
eating grass.

An email was sent: “Peace Man and I talk every day.
We support each other and worry for each other’s well being. I am in
contact with others in Gaza and share my situation while hearing of
theirs. Much fear and pain on both sides. Once again we should all call
to end the violence, open the siege, start talking and bring back hope
to us, civilians on both sides, pawns in the unbearable senseless
political game.”

Then Hamas told Israel that a renewed ceasefire
must be accompanied by an end to the increasingly cruel siege, but
Israel refused to accept this.

The friends “realized that the
situation was about to deteriorate into total chaos” said Arik Yalin,
43, of Sderot, the spokesman for this Israeli-Arab group. They put up a
website that stated: “Up until now we have cried, called, demonstrated,
and asked our leaders to do something about this insane reality in
which we live. The leaders have tried every possible idea that involves
violence and military force – with no success at all.

“We shoot at them and they shoot at us. We retaliate and they strike back.

“This is an endless and vicious cycle.

“Today we say: ENOUGH! It is our turn to take our destiny into our own hands and to ACT to stop the cycle of bloodshed.”

They
sent a petition to the Israeli Government in the name of their group; 
‘Kol Acher’ (The Other Voice). Five hundred citizens of Sderot signed
it as well as another 1300 Israeli and Palestinian citizens. It read:

“Kol
Acher from Sderot and the communities around Gaza calls on the Prime
Minister and the Defence Minister to act urgently to restore calm in
the area.

“The ceasefire changed the lives of the people of
Sderot, Ashkelon and the region beyond recognition, allowing all of us
to experience again a life that is more normal and sane. The
continuation of this calm is essential and critical to the residents of
the region from every possible aspect: physical, mental, spiritual and
economic.

“Another round of escalation may break our already
brittle spirit, and take us all to another round of self-destruction
and pointless bloodshed. It is not certain that we will survive. And
you must be aware of that, if you indeed care about the residents of
this area. We’ve been through this movie too many years–and results
speak for themselves: feeling trapped, abandonment, and hopelessness
for our children and us!

“On the other side of the border live a
million and a half Palestinians under unbearable conditions, and most
of them want, like we do, calm and the opportunity of a future for
themselves and their families.

“We live in the feeling that you
have wasted that period of calm, instead of using it to advance
understandings and begin negotiations, as well as for fortifying the
houses of residents as promised.

“We call on the Prime Minister
and the Defence minister not to listen to the voices of incitement and
do everything they can to avoid another round of escalation, to secure
the continuation of the calm and to work...towards direct or indirect
negotiations with the Palestinian leadership in Gaza in order to reach
long term understandings.

“We prefer a cold war without a single rocket to a hot war with dozens of victims and innocent fatalities on both sides.

“We ask you to offer us the possibility of political arrangement and hope and not an endless cycle of blood.”

Their
petition had no effect. On December 27th, while politicians in the West
were on holiday and the US had a lame duck President in his final weeks
of office, Israel launched a savage assault.

That same day the
Israeli Foreign Ministry changed its website, removing charts giving
the numbers of rockets and mortars fired every month from the Gaza
strip, perhaps because they revealed the near-total cessation of fire
during the truce. These charts were based on statistics supplied by the
Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center and provide
striking evidence of Hamas’ good faith. Contrary to government
statements made repeatedly since then, Israeli government statistics
show Hamas kept the ceasefire.

Together with a similar graph for
mortar fire, these reveal that the total number of rocket and mortar
attacks launched from Gaza fell from over a hundred a month to just 12
in all from the start of July to the end of October. The Ministry has
replaced these graphs with one that is harder to interpret. It claims
‘227 rockets were fired during the lull in the fighting’ but notes that
203 of these were fired after November 4th, the date when Israel broke
the ceasefire. This is still on the Government website.

Credit
for the 12 rockets fired during the ceasefire were reportedly claimed
by Fatah’s al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Islamic Jihad or the "Badr Forces.’
Hamas condemned them. 

It is worth going back to what else
Obama said in Sderot: “I will not wait until a few years into my term
or my second term if I'm elected, in order to get the process moving. I
think we have a window right now that needs to be taken advantage of. I
think you've got a set of moderate Palestinian leaders who are
interested. I think the Israeli people are interested in moving this
process along. But I also think there's a population on both sides that
is becoming increasingly frustrated with the lack of progress. And
where there's hopelessness and despair that can often turn in a bad
direction.”

Obama on January 11th said he would be ready to do
all he can to bring peace from the day he takes office. But – has Obama
heard these voices of Sderot? I doubt he did when he went to their
town, but, if he did, then he will know that the Israeli government is
wrong to claim that the only way they can stop the rockets is by
physically destroying Hamas with all the slaughter this entails.

Perhaps
Obama should also take advice, not already doing so, from the former UK
Ambassador to Israel, Sir Jeremy Greenstock. January 9, 2009 he
unhesitatingly said during a BBC interview: “Hamas is not a terrorist
organisation,” adding he knows from talking to them that they are
focussed on ending the decades of military occupation. He also
affirmed; “Israel broke the truce by its actions on 4th November.”'

Perhaps
Obama should also listen to the Catholic priest, Fr. Latham, who
preached in Bethlehem on Sunday 4th January, saying the Palestinians
are being “crucified everyday.”

Note:

Find two examples of the post cards sent from Sderot to Gaza Strip. Click here.

I hope you have enjoyed these educational resources.

 

Aherodias, that was a great article. Thanks.

Like posting from different coffee shops does not show diffrent IP addresses? Come now, your crowd has been that sophisticated ling before that.

 

But the lie is still the same. Hamas says it Might accept a cease fire if Israel gives it everything it demands.

 

Gee, and you criticize Israel for not just jumping on that?

 

WOW

That Israel planned for an invasion is fact. That IF HAMAS HAD NOT STATED THE TRUCE WOULD NOT BE RENEWED, then the invasion would not have taken place, is also fact.

Funny how you seem to ignore that little tidbit.

 That the the Palestinians TRIED to kill large numbers of Israelis during the 'cease-fire' you yourself admit, yet that they failed somehow magically makes them not cuplable in your eyes. Thats not even silly, its ridiculous.

To make points you quote various random sources that agre with your presoppositions like 'the former UK ambassador to Israel' who says that Hamas is not a terrorist organizeation (no sources, I notice) but HIS GOVERNMENT certainly disagrees, as does the entire EU. Oh, was that an inconvenient fact you left out as well?

Try as you like, the facts dont back up your claims. Hamas still calls for ALL of Israel in their charter. They call for the death of Jews in their charter and in their practice.

 

But maybe you can fool someone into thinking they are really just a bunch of peaceful kittens if you lie loudly and often enough.

 

And you dodged the question I asked above, so I can only assume you know what I'm talking about.

Hamas has shown repeatedly they can honor truces. They followed a unilateral ceasefire for 18 months. If they commit to a ten-year hudna, and unless they somehow get F18's, it means no more Hamas. You'll probably find their influence waning if Israel stops its belligerency.

What's the alternative? Israel is the most powerful military in the region and it can't even stop people in its own backyard from firing rockets. It's only good at targeting residental homes, schools, hospitals, and police. To say you can't make peace with Hamas is to endorse neverending warfare.

Also, people take the Hamas charter at its word to claim they want to kill all Jews, then they ignore what Hamas leaders always say about rockets and suicide bombings, it's a way to take impunity away from Israelis. There's no indication this group that can't even stop Israel from rampaging through their home is planning another 'final solution'.

Aherodias thank you for your post.

I just wanted to comment that Janine Roberts copied the translation of
the Sderot petition (unfortunately without giving credit but thanks
anyway) from our blog. We were the first English site to publish the
petition, see Jews
Sans Frontieres.

We are uncompromosingly opposed to Israel and Zionism, and that has
never stoped us to highlight any Israeli voice that shows elemental
human decency, even when they do not necesarily share our analysis.
Being anti-Zionist and anti-Israel doesn't mean rejecting the right of
jews to live, it means rejecting the right of Jews to colonize, expropriate, and dominate. 

As for "stewart"'s expose of our imaginary sock-puppetry, get a life
stewart. Andrew is a regular of our blog and you can find him
commentingh a lot there. Our numbers grow every day and we don't need
to create the perception that we are many. We are the majority among
human beings, and while we are still a (sizeable) minority among Jews, that is
changing fast. 

 

Stuart:

I will do this one time and one time only, and explicitly to help you.

Had your studies for a college, or even high school course been at the same level that you displayed in misreading my post, you would surely have failed every test and every course. Therefore I urge you in a friendly way to change your reading habits and above all open your mind and your heart to new information, even if -- no, especially if - it  contradicts your resolutely held world view. 

This is the way great scientists and great thinkers throughout the ages have made great advances in every field. If you adopted this kind of thinking you might find that you could use your mental abilities (and I am certain they are more than adequate) to the fullest.

So - on to particulars: Your statement purporting to relate a pronouncement on the cease fire by Hamas to the israeli invasion may be fact -- but since you offer no evidence, and give no references, I am justified in concluding that it is pure bullshit, i.e. a creation of your mind from thin air.  However, since I cautioned you to open your mind, I will change my opion on the matter of the invasion if you do present some evidence  in support.

Next, I categorically deny I ever said that Hamas tried to kill Israelis during the cease fire. In fact, I said just the opposite - referring to the report from Israeli intelligence ((http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ham...) that showed only 12 rockets were fired over 6 months from Gzaz - and more importantly, that Hamas fired NONE of those rockets in the entire six months.

For more mundane evidence, I urge you to read the Janine Roberts article again, noting how she quotes at length from numerous residents of Sderot, all of whom reported being very happy with the cease fire, and many of them sending good wishes to the people of Gaza. If you can disprove what she writes, or offer counterindicating evidence,  once more I will be happy to revise my views based on the new facts. 

That Hamas has proved itself committed to violence, even to violence against civilians, cannot be doubted. However, that they kept their word regarding the truce is indisputable (show me facts and figures to the contrary, Stuart), and that Israel violated their agreement from day one is also indisputable.  Did it escape your attention that part of the cease fire agreement including easing of the blockade to allow food,  fuel, and medical supplies to come through as needed? Yet somehow the Israelis translated that agreement to mean "let's just punish the bastards - what are they going to do, fire some rockets?" So, given that people in Gaza were already dying from starvation (literally) and lack of medical attention, I find it very surprising that they managed to withhold their fire until Israel violently broke the ceasefire on November 4. 2008. Do you read the Israeli newspapers, for god's sake?

I note in passing that Hamas (and the Arab League of course) have repeatedly offered a permanent cessation of hostilities if israel will agree to withdrawing back to the pre-1967 borders - which by the way,give Palestinians only 22 percent of what the original UN partition plan gave them. In response, Israel has offered ... nothing. For a short course on this subject, you may google on the words "palestine israel propaganda ploy."  I'm sure you will be amused.

Finally, I strongly recommend that you research the history of Hamas, how and why they rose to power, and what part the government of Israel played in this history. Then tell me, if you think the puppet is evil, how do you rank the morality of the puppet-master?

As I said, this is the last time I am going to lecture you like this. I have no desire to embarrass you and every wish that you will begin to abandon your prejudices and start learning how to learn. If I have failed, I take responsibility for being an incompetent teacher.

But I will not yield to bluster, propaganda, or misinformation,  and I will no longer respond to anything but facts and careful reasoning. 

Sincerely,

A

 

Your deliberate misreadings of the history of Hamas and its actions, intentions and desires shows a distinct lack of integrity and honesty. Your claims that Hamas honors peace agreements when in fact it merely allows other groups to attack Israel and then claims its lack of ability to stop them is disingenous at the very least.

You state you will not yield to propoganda or misinformation, yet you post little else. Your comments about the rise of Hamas (like all good Goebells-esque propoganda) does contain seeds of truth - Israel DID promote Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO, but then takes that seed and twists it into a vine of lies (that hardly means Israel controlled Hamas' agenda).

But the hearet of your lies is the cease-fire. Hamas openly and repeatedly stated that the cease-fire was over and that attacks on Israelis were once again on. I assume your interpretation of Israel 'breaking the cease-fire' ignores this reality. Otherwise, you are just plain lying.

Your pretense of '22%' which conviently ignores the realityof the San Remo Conference and the fact that 80% of the Mandate of Palestine had already been given to the Palestinians is more of the typical Arabist and anti-ISrael propoganda. The fact that the West Bank and Gaza were rejected by the Palestinians in the PLO Charter of 1963 and then magically became 'ancestral Palestinian lands' in 1967 also seems to escape your prpoganda.

That you chose to practice condesension in place of knowledge is your own business. It does not change you lies to truth no matter how much you want it to.

Sincerely AND honestly

S

Read Moshe Shemesh's 'The Palestinian Entity' and you'll find establishing a state in the West Bank and Gaza was on the agenda before 1967. It never happened because King Hussein wouldn't let it happen, but it was definitely talked about. Now, I happen to think Palestinian nationalism and its history is the most academic issue of the conflict, because it doesn't determine if and how you should oppose Zionism. Ethnic cleansing and apartheid do not care who you are, they care what you're not. Zionism decided there must be an ethnic majority in a land where this majority does not exist, and the victims wouldn't be any less whatever they called themselves.

Jordan was cut off to Zionist immigration and that's too good, otherwise the Nakba would've been inflicted in a wider territory.

As for Hamas, this is getting tedious. You know they can enforce a ceasefire when they get something in return. They have no means of fighting the IDF toe-to-toe and can only strike back at soft targets. Israel has the power to make peace and war with them at will. You either think it should make peace or you don't.

So you admit that Hamas did NOT live up to their obligations ut want to pretend they will if Israel gives them the 67 cease-fire lines?
Funny since Hamas openly and repeatedly states that nothing short of ALL of Israel will satisfy them. Apparently You believe You know them better than they know themselves.

 As to your ongoing diatribes against Israel, the fact that one person here or there said the WB and Gaza should be Palestinian state when the overwhelming majority did not is not just wishful thinking, it is blatant dishonest propoganda.

As to 'ethnic cleansing', the only people who want that are the Palestinans who continue to fight for a Juden-frie land.

Lastly, its fairly funny to see you try to do backflips to allow Hamas' blatant Crimes Against Humanity. Funny sad, not funny ha ha.

regarding the past, which has a hold on the present.  israel is fighting a war against hamas.  it's bloody and ugly.

 idealistic visions of utopian- kumbaya- we- all- get-along future might serve some purpose as thought experiments, but they aren't very real.

the next step in the israel hamas confrontation could be in the direction advised by ephraim halevy and yossi alpher, who suggest talking.  they aren't clear where they hope this would lead or their vision of where it might lead, but that is the direction that they suggest and they are pro israel, pro zionism.

in fact this is not the conventional wisdom and it will almost assuredly not be the program of the next prime minister, whoever that may be.  so in that way it is less than real too.

hamas has a "right" to demand whoever they want in exchange for gilad shalit.  but  keeping him hidden away from red cross or un is one way to set the emotional background music for a future war.  if hamas was interested in opening the crossings or extending the cease fire, then their policy regarding gilad shalit was against their interest.  but i think they wanted a war. 

and sometimes war is practically a natural phenomenom.  assymetrical warfare will create this situation if the weaker side feels they have nothing to lose and the stronger side feels they have something to gain.  it seems to be as simple as gravity.

 

"So you admit that Hamas did NOT live up to their obligations ut want to
pretend they will if Israel gives them the 67 cease-fire lines?"

Uhm, I've been saying the last few posts they live up to the ceasefires they agree to. Hamas does not have to accept Israel du jure to make peace. After all, Israel and Jordan made peace even though the Likud and Herut parties are open about their wish to conquer Jordan.

"
As to 'ethnic cleansing', the only people who want that are the Palestinans who continue to fight for a Juden-frie land."

Let's try an experiment. If Israel has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing, how about giving citizenship to some Palestinian refugees?

Lets try it again - Hamas allowed others to shoot rockets - thats NOT honoring a cease-fire.

And Likud recognzes Jordans right to exist. It does not and has never been 'open about.. blah blah" That you need to lie to make your case shows the weakness of your 'arguements'.

And I noticed you just ignored the Fact that the Palestinans want s Juden-Frie state, openly calling for ethnic cleansing.

 How about Saudi Arabia grant citizenship to the Palestinans that have been in their country for 20+ years?

As to allowing non-citizens to be ctizens, the fact that Palestinans claim this or that does not make it so. Israel HAS granted citizenship and now has over 1 million Arab ctizens. Or is that truth too nconvenient for you?

 

 

 

1. You need some real evidence that Hamas allowed any one to shoot rockets. Just because a handful were fired in the months of July-Oct. doesn't mean Hamas let them go. There's also a well publicized case of Hamas arresting members of the al-Aqsa Brigades for doing just that. The funny thing is, I linked to a pdf from a right-wing Israeli site that shows practically no rockets were fired Jul-Oct. Considering that dozens were fired in the surrounding months, you'd think that would be evidence of Hamas curtailing rocket fire, but somehow a handful of incidents that they in all liklihood could not prevent just shows you can't trust them.

2. Let me put it this way: Try to imagine a hypothetical world where Israel signed a peace treaty with Hamas. I know it's hard, but just try. Now let's say MPs in East Jerusalem (capital of Palestine, natch) still sang an anthem that contained along the lines 'the whole of Palestine is still ours'. What would your feelings be on that?

3. I haven't ignored that. In fact, I gave my opinion on this above but I'll expand a little. For one, it's not 'the Palestinians' who call for a Jew-free Palestine, it's a handful of hard-liners. And let's say Hamas scrapped their charter and wrote a new one like this: We're sorry for that awful, bigoted charter our assassinated founders have written. We now see there's a difference between Judaism and Zionism. When the Zionists stop colonizing our land, we will not take any sort of retribution. We will live in peace with everyone in the holy land regardless of religion.

Let's say they write that. Will Israel still want to expand its borders and maintain an ethnic majority within them? And will Hamas still be an obstacle to that? That is the belligerence fueling this conflict, not rejectionist talk from people who aren't obligated to recognize the humanity of their racist oppressors. Looking at other comparable conflicts, there's little reason to think there'd be any less violence if Hamas welcomed Jews to live there in principle.

What's more, Hamas gave citizenship to an Israeli Jew, Jeff Halper.

4. I'm not opposed to any state granting any refugee citizenship. It's not a substitute for allowing refugees to return where they were expelled from. You really should call for both, because calling for only the Arab states to solve the problem gives Israel carte blanche to make more refugees.

5. Inconvenient truth? Are you kidding? This is excellent news. It shows Jews and non-Jews can live together in one state. Kind of makes me wonder why maintaining that Jewish demographic majority is so important.

1) 6 month cease-fire goes into effect June 19th.

Eght rocket and mortar attacks in the remander of June

12 in July

11 in August

4 in September

2 in October

193 in November (reneber the 'cease-fire' goes till December 19th)

63 in December BEFORE the truce expires

Dec 18th Hamas announces truce is oer and it has 'right' to shoot missiles now.

 

Now pretend you are a civilzed person in acivlzed country whose neighbor claims it cannot stop almost 300 rockets and missles being launched at your country During a 'cease-fire'.

Britan would never allow it. France. Germany, the US. Yemen went to war over much less.

But thats OK, since Hamas didn't 'claim' them? Get real.

 

2) Again, just because the Arabs claim Jewish East Jerusalem (or thats what it was until it was ethncally cleansed by the Jordanians in 1948, eliminating the 2,000 year old Jewish presence, burning over 60 synagogues and denying the holiest site in Judaism to Jews for 19 years), does not make it theirs (yours?) any more than Hamas' claim than Seville is still Dar al-Islam and must be recovered. So we'll leave the boundry issue to be settled by people with some understanding.

That said, you were caught out in a lie about Likud, so now you want to slime way into another tangent. Fine.

If Palestinians sign a peace treaty wth Israel and stll openly and avowedly claim Israeli lands as their own, then thats not peace, is it? Its just the seeds for the next war. Any Peace means acceptance of peace, not merely words on a piece of paper. It seems you want Israel to give land for piece.

3) And HAMAS calls for a Juden Frie Palestine (except those who can prove they were there before 48 AND accept their status as dhimni. I note no such requirements for Arabs, many many of whom (like Arafat hiinself) were from Egypt, Jordan and other countries in the ME). So dont claim its a 'small handful' because thats a blatant lie.

4) That 40 million refugees (includng 800,000 Jews kicked out of Arab lands) were resettled after WWII and ONLY the Arabs now called Palestinians (the Jews were the ones called Palestinans before 1948) does Not mean their decendants of decendants are refugees.

In fact, in the entire world, a Rwandan kicked out of his home by fghrng s a refugee, but his son, born in Canada is not. A Bosnian Serb, driven out by ethnic cleansing is a refugee, but her daughter, born in Germany is not. The ONLY people who carry their refugee status from generation to generation in order to try to delegitamize Israel are the Arabs now called Palestinians.

I call on the Palestinians to take any people they want into any future Palestine and finally rid the world of this ridculous one off status.

5) A)History is long, and your take on Israel just serves to show why she is needed. 

B) ALL peoples deserve the right to fulfill their national aspirations in ther land. Claiing that Israel does not have the rght to exist as a Jewsh state is racst pure and simple. Saudi Arabia is a Muslm (religion)State. France is a French (language and culture) state. Etc. Israel is the Jewish (religion and culture and peoplehood AND 2,000 year history of living in the land) State.

 

 

1. We're going into well-worn territory here. Israel broke the ceasefire on Nov. 4 and then Hamas resumed rocket attacks. They followed the ceasefire for four months and responded to an Israeli raid that killed "6 gunmen" (they didn't even pretend to attack rocket fire that time!). Incidentally, since you're so anxious to treat Gaza and Israel as separate entities, you might be interested to learn Israel has tapped into off shore natural gas wells. Off shore from... Gaza. In your scenario, is Britain trying to drill for natural gas in an area it's declared an enemy entity?
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3617798,00.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1183459207651&pagename=JPost%...

2. There you go. The Likud Anthem includes the line "The Jordan has two banks. One is ours and so is the other one." This came from the Revisionist movement who were the forerunners of Likud and didn't accept the British handing over the east bank to the Hashemites. To this day the anthem still has that line.

3. You said 'the Palestinians', not HAMAS. Who's trying to weasel out of what?

4. The only people who are entirely banned from their homeland to create a state that could only exist because of their banishment are Palestinians. They did not choose to be refugees for so long, the Zionist state imposed it on them. And Palestinians are the only people in the world who are demanded they rubber stamp their own expulsion. Even the German refugees post-WWII are an issue between Germany and Poland.

5. Religion and culture and peoplehood? Are you trying to tell me an atheist Jew is just as Jewish as a religious Jew, and has the same 2000 year connection to the land?

an atheist jew may be just as jewish as a religious jew.  for example, an atheist jew who was with his fellow jews in camp, you might say he paid his jewish dues and besides that he would tell you that he is a member of the jewish people.  his connection to the land is through his people.

Although the Torah mandates you are to be cut off from your people for breaking the sabbath, a person who does not believe in Hashem but is related to Jews through biology is just as entitled to the land Hashem gave Abraham to possess.

Andrew:

 I admire your patience and persistence in exchanging views with Stuart. It's clear that he is not ready to learn, even from a good teacher like yourself. (It's also clear that I have given up.)

 I can only hope that this thread is being read by a wider audience, who may benefit from the facts and analysis you present.

My only suggestion: focus on the fact that Hamas is NOT the issue, the occupation IS.

regarding the west bank it is valid to say that the issue is the occupation, although there too it is more complicated than that.  the palestinians still wish to implement return of their refugees to israel, so there is more than the question of occupation on the table.  the experience with withdrawing from occupied territories has not been a beacon to encourage israel to repeat the southern lebanon and gaza experiences.

but regarding gaza, hamas is the issue, not the occupation.  unilateral withdrawal without an agreement is a poor substitute for a real agreement and there would be limitations on gaza's independence in terms of importing weapons (besides the physical limitations of a dependency on israel's economy.)  but to pretend that only the occupation is a problem in gaza is game playing.

andrew r- my claim to israel is based on history and need.  the fact of jewish presence in the land is accepted by "all" historians and by two major religions.  both christianity and islam accept the historical fact of jewish presence, but only on theological grounds consider exile the natural consequence of not accepting their prophets or religions.

the need of the jews for a homeland is proven by thousands of years of history and particularly the first half of the twentieth century.

 much of the western world is living in a post nationalist spirit.  america the biggest exception to the post national spirit is in large part a post national nation.  so therefore nationalism is in disrepute for white people and acceptable only in those of color, for this gives them the right of overthrowing the white colonialists and thus the need to pass through primitive nationalism on their way to liberation.  the history of the jewish people is counter to this: there is no nation in history that maintained such a long exile and wished to end it.  the nation was established during the time of warfare by an act of warfare and maintains itself through warfare.  so there is valid reason to raise questions regarding the primacy of jewish claims on the land vis a vis the other: the palestinian.  but still your refusal to see jewish claims as valid and deny the history and the need is a type of blindness and a type of prejudice.

While your smug self-back patting may make you feel good, the facts still are that you invent facts.

 

One of you using imaginagy 22% numbers, one inventing rules for Judaism.

Both of you ignoring the realities of Hamas, or saying you dont, BUT....

Neither of you has dealt with one reality, or one point, but instead move from disproven myth to disproven myth.

 

Yona - Good luck. Walls listen better. These two repeat the same talking points ad naseum.

Yeah Stuart, the Torah doesn't say you are to be cut off from your people for breaking the Sabbath.  I made it all up.  The JPost article about drilling for gas in Gaza waters?  A facsimilie.

 I've dealt with the reality of Hamas.  Just not in the way you'd like.

That you want to pretend you understand Torah is humorous.
That Jewish Law encompasses more than Torah is know not only to Jews but to anyone with even a passing knowledge of Judaism.

Unless all your knowledge comes from Stormfront.

 

 

Enlighten me. Yonahred didn't even try to contradict what I said about the sabbath.

And your attempted insults are way too silly. Do a cursory research on white supremacist tracts and you'll probably find the Talmud is discussed more than the Torah.

And since you show only desire to denigrate, its doubtful you can.

 

But simply put, being cut off does not make one no longer a Jew. And that is for an ACTIVE violation. Judaism is a religion of deeds more than thoughts, so if one is an atheist, one is still a Jew.

But you only want to know so you can use it as one more of your vain attempts to delegitamize Judaism and Israel, so the knowledge wouldnt seem to do you any good.

 

In any event, my point still stands , EVERY people has the right tofulfill their national aspirations in their land. Even if we accept the specious claim that Palestinians existed as a group before 1948 and not after, then any reasonalbe human (are you one?) wouild admit that Israelis too are a people now with the right to fulfill THEIR national aspirations on their land.

And anyone who does not use invented history does know that there is a continous Jewish presence in the land for over 2,000 years. 

 

But these are facts. You deal in half-truths and distortions, so distort and half-truth away.

Exactly. So claiming biological entitlement to the land of Israel when you have no intention ever of keeping God's statutes is no denigration of Judaism at all.

 

 

you claim no denigration of judaism, yet you show not a quark's worth of empathy for the jewish people.  the prophets of old condemned the jewish people, but always showed a flip side of empathy.  therefore unless you show some empathy, i'd probably bet you're in the jew hater category and not the prophet category.

For not being Stuart.  At least your arguments are grounded in something.