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The Last Time We Had Sex…
By Jamie Sneider / January 25, 2009
The last time my husband and I had sex after we separated, I wore a Chai pendant necklace and he had on a Saint-somebody necklace.
We were doing it missionary-style and his Saint was dangling next to my Chai. I didn’t want to point out the ridiculousness of our new necklaces, and the fact that we NEVER wore these when we were married. The fact that I am a Jew and he a Christian became painfully obvious.
“We’re both wearing our necklaces,” he said. “Yep," I responded, trying not to think about it. I was trying to just get off and not pay attention to possibly why we didn’t work. I didn’t ask him what the Saint stood for. I didn’t want to know. He knew what the Chai was because I talked about it a lot while making my Jewish calendar. But he never talked about Saints. He talked about Christmas but he didn’t believe in God, and yet somehow I drove him to need a Saint? I guess I can’t complain, I also needed something holy after our separation.
One of the last questions our couples therapist asked was, “Did you have a problem with her being Jewish?” To be honest, I don’t think that was our essential problem, but it was a major difference. It wasn’t a God thing. It was a family and cultural thing. When we were happy our religious beliefs were never the issue. We were both reform in our religious ideas and politically very liberal, but when things got bad, I had " the loud Jewish family,” and his family was “white trash.” Yes, not healthy.
If someone pinned me down and forced me to tell them what I thought about his family Christmas, I would blurt out "I fucking hated it!" But I wouldn’t admit that in public. I hated going to West Virginia during Hanukkah and pretending it didn’t matter. I hated buying $500 worth of presents and opening them on Christmas Day. I hated Christmas cookies and Christmas decorations, and I hated being away from my family’s Chinese food and movie night. I wanted to be the Jewish girlfriend and Jewish wife who was “cool” with the holiday that made everyone happy and giving. But I wasn’t, and I couldn’t admit it.
I dreaded that trip to West Virginia. We always got into a big fight before. It wasn’t Christmas per se, as I actually have never dated a Jewish man, but it was his Christmas. It was the fact that I felt excluded from the fun cause I was Jewish.
Do I think it would be easier if I married someone Jewish? Yes, possibly.
Will I? I don’t know. I’m dating both Jews and non-Jews and I like them all. As a Reform Jew, I walk a line in modern society. I am religiously defined, but I also am an assimilated liberal American. I fear losing someone I really love because he’s not Jewish, but when I’m really honest, I can say that I want my children to be Jewish, and that there is a indescribable cultural understanding when I meet a Jewish man.
I’m curious what will happen. I’ll let you know. I have date tomorrow with a Jewish man.
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What a sad attempt at a reply, Barbara. I really expected better from you.
Although you know nothing about me except what you gathered from innuendo, your own projections (heavily grounded in your own personal history of clearly unhappy dating experiences), and your own contempt for gentiles, you certainly give away much in the way of your own innuendo. From what I gather so far, you are unmarried. I also gather that you do not belong to a stream of Judaism that is so cloistered as to eschew the blessings of Western civilization – a civilization that is as rooted in Jewish culture as it has given back to it in return. You are right that I don’t identify with your pre-Hasmonean mentality – one that hasn’t yet grasped the distinction between autonomy and cultural exchange. And therefore, it is likely that your view is as sad and retrograde as it is hypocritical.
My appreciation for other cultures detracts nothing from my appreciation for Jewish culture. I wouldn’t trade that for anything. Nor does it detract from my appreciation of the similarities and analogies between them. I didn’t say gentile culture(s) (there’s more than one of them, you know) or Jewish culture is perfect, however. Perhaps that is related to the fact that, unlike you, I don’t mistake criticism or even sharp observation for denigration. It takes someone secure in themselves to see the difference. It also takes someone secure in the world to see the difference between what "some" members of an identifiable group may characteristically do and what "all" of that group do. To accept that there is more than one attribute both within individuals and within a culture is a sign of psychological maturity. The alternative is the phenomenon known as "splitting" - which confines one’s view of a person to either/or categories - and when applied to groups of people, bigotry and nativism. Both very ugly and unhealthy qualities.
Because you seem to have a very jaded view based on your experiences with men, I will refrain from commenting further. The last thing I want to do is to unwittingly exploit an obvious display of pain and lack of fulfillment on your part that makes the reasons for our different perspective so clear. I had thought before that you had seemed like a nice and intelligent woman, and one with some interesting things to say. I choose to believe that such is still likely the case, and that I must have touched upon a nerve that I didn’t mean to. But I will do no more to expose that wound in public, and remain available for comment or discussion by e-mail if it is too difficult for you to give in to your need to trot out these obviously personal issues while abiding by a format more conducive to productive, public conversation.
Oh, and by the way, I am not secular, have dated (for months, not just two dates) blonde, blue-eyed Jews and non-Jews (although I prefer brunettes, and Jews, and Jewish brunettes in particular), and would never think of converting to Catholicism or raising kids of mine as such. I’m sorry if that messes with your need to pigeonhole me, but my life and thoughts don’t exist in order to confirm the stereotypes that you’ve invented in order to make sense of your unhappiness.
If you are secular, you almost certainly will marry a gentile… 90+ per cent chance. Yourpost shows that you have already decided Jewish women are inferior, and Jewish culture is inferior. You and have no reason to marry Jewish, and don’t want to. In my youth, when I was still dating, I wasted many evenings with men of similar mindset… although most of them thought they had asked out a friendly Germanic shiksa.  Tall, atheletic, blonde, blue eyes, German name just like one of the Nazi War Criminals but with two letter reversed. I knew that wonderful feeling of being worshipped for an evening by a nice Jewish man… sometimes two evenings. Then he would confess to me his terrible secret… that he was a JEW! Could I accept him. I was so beautiful, smart, sensuous, together, wonderful…  until I explained that I, too, was a Jew. That was the end of it. At most, there was one more sentence, (not to me, it was ‘waiter, check!’) and the date was over. I twice had to hail a cab because the Jewish antisemite drove me to where we were and left me there.Â
This happened a total of four times, although after the second time I no longer allowed people I did not know to drive me to resturants where I might be deserted.
Then there was the guy who spent an entire weekend with me, a set-up by a matchmaker… he knew I was Jewish. He kept quizzing me, and I kept answering his questions. At the end of the weekend, we sat down in a dairy resturant, and he told me he could find nothing wrong with me. "But," he explained, "all Jewish women are crazy and neurotic, and the fact that you could cover it up only proves that it was a waste of my time meeting with you to prove to my friends I was open to Jewish women." He then denounced me for being a phoney (something nobody who knows me at all would consider accurate) and went home, where, he explained, he lived with a wonderful shiksa.
Your last post smells a lot like it could have been written by one of these guys. Since you are clearly a Jewish antisemite, consider the best use of your time. You have already decided to marry a gentile. Why waste time on Jewish women who you believe are part of a ‘fragile’ culture. You want to be part of Roman culture. You should consider using the name Josephus, not Isaac. The RC church will be happy to welcome your kids and will even bless your marriage as long as you promise to raise the kids in the RC church.
You are credulous about gentile culture, because you have less understanding of it. You think because you don’t see the edges there are none. The grass is always greener… Merry Christmas. By the way, the church services on Easter are actually nicer than the Christmas services.  Enjoy them.
"While I favor less conniving
the only path I know on the way there is the rest of us being less credulous."
I’m not sure what you mean to say. Are you saying that people should first be less trusting, and that will therefore make it harder for others to be conniving? That sounds pretty cynical.
I don’t think I’m anti-semitic, but I don’t have overly credulous(?) blind spots regarding the more, shall we say, "fragile" aspects of Jewish culture. I love dating Jewish women, and at least half the time, that’s what I do. On the other hand, I find that Italian women value close connections with family and friends just as much and are as loyal if not moreso, but are less likely to be neurotic. With Jews there’s often a trade-off between intelligence and neuroticism, and less integration between the intellectual and the sensual. Maybe they’re more likely to be more driven. I don’t know. Then again, I don’t see many Jews with a devotion to muscle cars and mall hair. Maybe  being less aesthetically-inclined is a double-edged sword. But the funny thing is that I’ve found it more difficult than I’d thought it would be to separate the more superficial aspects of la dolce vita from those that also place a higher emphasis on warm, full and honest relations with others.
The Romans, accomplished and cultured as they were, ultimately appropriated many of our ethical values by way of Christianity, and through a flirtation with Jewish cultural and theological norms before that. Perhaps it’s time we returned the favor and appropriated some of theirs.
Or those of the Greeks.
Or the Brazilians ;-)
the only path I know on the way there is the rest of us being less credulous.
For the time being, the divorce rate continues to be higher among intermarriage than inmarriages. I believe that a good part of that is a misunderstanding of the culture of the beloved. Another part is that Jewish anti-semetism (that is, Jews being antisemetic) tends to lead to intermarriage, as well as divorce.
Although one can learn a certain amount of the inner workings of a culture from reading a book, or from the sustained observation of a family, I would imagine that a certain amount does apply on an individual level and can really be learned best by knowing someone closely and personally.
And while I can’t speak for the purported intelligence of your acquaintances, it does sound like their values are in the toilet. Is chivalry really that dead? Perhaps the sexes really never needed to become more alike so much as less conniving. Independence is a hell of a thing to purchase at the expense of no system of honor or ethics to sustain it.
But perhaps there truly is a cultural distinction in that regard for which we should both be grateful – even if Jerry Springer might not be. The things we want may come at a steeper price, but have a steeper reward. And the reward for getting people to like you while not (and sometimes specifically for not) being a disgusting piece of trash: Priceless.Â
than marrying somebody without looking into their culture and how you feel about adopting it beforehand?
When marrying a person, you marry INTO their family. You become a part of their family. It is particularly important where there are significant cultural differences to spend time with the family and figure out how you are going to feel about being part of that family.
It is also important, if the proposed mate claims they will adopt to your culture, that they show a willingness to do that before the wedding. I know many women who told their Jewish boyfriends they would convert if he were serious enough to marry her, but weren’t going to do it otherwise, then didn’t convert, but did get pregnant before telling him she wouldn’t. These girls (who mistook me for a convert) told me how they were ‘smarter’ than I was, since they got what they wanted (a rich guy) without any "sacrifice." They considered the marriage a ticket to do what they wanted to do for the rest of their lives at his expense, even if he divorced her.
Although the story here is about a Jewish woman and a gentile man, the story is usually the opposite. Values, which may be part of or transcend culture, and also matter a great deal.
That’s silly, Barbara. It isn’t through sexual intercourse that interfaith/multicultural couples learn about their differences. It’s through their dealings with each other on levels that are often just as intimate but not physical.Â
Now, it’s possible that distinction isn’t clear to the author (and I’m throwing out a hypothetical, not an assumption) or to some of those reading her post. But it is to me. Or should I be more like someone’s stereotype of a guy and pretend that sex is the only form of intimacy? Despite the fact that no guy here made that assumption?
It’s not a pity that men and women are becoming more alike (if that’s even true). But it would probably be a pity if they were to appropriate each other’s worse traits instead of their better traits. And it would be even worse if they were to expect that they should just retain the worst traits of their traditional stereotypes of each other and call it a day. But what do I know? That’s just my "typical male" perspective.
Nice joke about the "Apostrophe-Pi" necklace, Throbert. You typical male, you.
I have to confess that reading this thread underlined to me how profoundly weird I am. When I wanted to explore Christians and Christian traditions I went to church, joined a choir, and learned that it wasn’t for me. I didn’t marry somebody to learn about it. In my day (I’m old) that was a guy thing. Men married and had gentile kids to show how open they were, then got a Jewish mistress on the side to find a little comfort.
I was surprised to learn that a woman did the ‘learn culture by sexual intercourse’ thing. I guess men and women really are becoming more alike.  A pity.
Stacey-
you bring up an interesting question, but to be honest i’m not sure of the answer. my guess is probably not, but Judaism is known for its encouraging of questioning and debating so who knows.
"they also liked the idea that intimacy on Shabbat is a double mitzvah."
-But is it still a mitzvah if your partner isn’t Jewish? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m just curious.
i have a Tree Of Life pendant that i hardly ever take off, except when bathing and sleeping. i’ve worn it during intimacy, and my last two partners found it unique that i kept it on when everything else had come off (i’m not a religious person, but i love this pendant). both were long-term relationships, but neither was Jewish. however, they didn’t practice any other religion. they also liked the idea that intimacy on Shabbat is a double mitzvah.
Jamie reminds me of myself in that i’ve dated both Jews and non-Jews, but have no idea what the final outcome will be. Jamie has already been married to a Christian, so she knows that religious differences can pose problems in a marriage if not addressed properly. but these issues were more attributed to the way her ex-husband’s family handled the holidays than the fact that he wasn’t Jewish. she didn’t have a problem with Christmas, she just didn’t like spending it in West Virginia and getting $500 worth of presents. would Jamie’s marriage been easier had her husband been Jewish? possibly, but even there she couldn’t be too certain.
we all walk the line that Jamie speaks of regardless of our denomination…we live in an open society and are free to mix with others, but we also have to contend with tradition and potential familial/communal uncomfortability. it can be very daunting. this would be a perfect world if we all only dated and married Jews…but this world is far from perfect and even those who do exclusively date within the tribe don’t always know what the outcome will be in matters of the heart.
Q: How do you make Jamie Sneider scream during sex?
A: Ask her, "Hey, baby, what’s the deal with your ‘Apostrophe-Pi’ necklace?"
?????
The best description I’ve seen of the "new tolerance" is a comparison to the Village People: it’s OK to wear different outfits, as long as everyone’s singing the same stupid song.This comparison emphasizes the willingness to overlook ethnic differences as long as there aren’t any ideological differences. Yet, as we see, even ideological compatibility cannot overcome the ultimate test: class.
The gap between "Christian white trash" and the author is suggested be a wider cultural and economic gap than the author lets on, and yes, there is no doubt that she would never actually have the gall to use the word "trash" to describe non-whites (What? In OBAMA’S AMERICA?!), but here she’s using this time tested slur here as a way to look down on the family in question vis-a-vis their place in the socio-economic pecking order. This raises other obvious embarassing questions about why the self-appointed political champions of the poor and middle class can’t actually tolerate socializing with (and, as the author makes clear, romancing) their social and economic inferiors .. but that’s really beyond the scope of my original trolling.
(Did I say trolling? I meant comment! Comment!)
Once again, "liberal" in America means, "tolerant of everyone …who isn’t actually really different"
Jamie unblushingly describes her ex’s West Virginia family as "white trash," which suggests that RW got the formulation backwards. It should be: "liberal" in America means "tolerant of everyone who isn’t TOO similar."Â
After all, the archetypal white liberal would never dream of using expressions like black trash or Latino trash, no matter how thoroughly apt and defensible such labels might be. (If you’re going to use a disparaging label like trash at all, the honest reality is that the "trash lifestyle" crosses racial and ethnic lines.) But for a white liberal, the word trash rolls off the tongue most easily when applied to another white person, precisely because of the embarrassing similarity between them.
By the same token, liberal Christians (and liberal secularists from Christian backgrounds) will in one breath heap abuse on fundamentalists who are Christian, and in the next breath call for "greater understanding" of fundamentalists who are Muslim.
?????
Once again, "liberal" in America means, "tolerant of everyone …who isn’t actuallly really different". Jamie earns props, however, for bringing herself to admit it.
the way i see it, that indescribable feeling means the world. let your experience guide your next move!
hahaha really enjoyed it…good luck!
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