Posts
Israel’s State-Sanctioned Persecution Of Messianic Jews Must End
By Roi Ben-Yehuda / April 28, 2008
Israel's beauty shines brightest in its diversity. The country possesses one of the most culturally and physically diverse societies on the planet. No matter the kind of Jew, from Yemenite to Ethiopian to Polish, from Orthodox to Reform to secular, there is a place for you under the Mediterranean sun. Yet there is at least one group of Jews who is excluded from the Zionist mosaic. They are the Messianic Jews — a religious community that follows a Torah inspired life-style while believing in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. The Messianics view themselves as returning to the roots of early Christianity as a
Jewish sect. According to Paul Liberman, author of The Fig Tree Blossoms, a messianic Jew is "a person who was born Jewish or converted to Judaism, who is a 'genuine believer' in Yeshua [Jesus], and who acknowledges his Jewishness." Practicing bi-spiritually, as it were, the Messianics stand outside the theological and historic spheres of normative Judaism and Christianity. Yet according to their own beliefs, they are engaged in an authentic expression of Judaism. In fact, they consider themselves "complete Jews." Around the world the Messianic Jewish community number roughly 350,000. In Israel they stand at 15,000 and have over 120 different congregations. Not surprisingly, from their inception the Messianics have managed to rouse the ire of the ultra-Orthodox and (to a lesser extent) secular communities in Israel. That anger has frequently turned into aggressive physical and verbal confrontations precipitated by religious radicals (Jews and Arabs) who oppose the presence of what in their view are dangerous missionizing Christians (in contrast to the fact that not a single Messianic Jew has ever stood trial for illegal missionary activity — e.g. forced conversion, or conversion of minors). Most recently, in the settlement of Ariel, a bomb planted under a Purim gift-basket left a 15 year-old boy belonging to a prominent family of Messianic Jews in critical condition. In addition to being targets of persecution at the hand of religious radicals, the
Messianics have also faced state-sanctioned discrimination. The Ministry of the Interior, with the backing of the Supreme Court, has rejected the appeals of Messianics for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. The argument being that since Messianics believe in Jesus, they either belong to another faith, or in the case of Jewish-born Messianics, have willingly converted into another faith, and therefore have forfeited their right to make Aliyah as Jews. In addition, the government has also discriminated against Messianic Jews who have migrated to Israel by refusing to renew their passports, register their newborns, firing them from government posts, and in some cases revoking their citizenship. While historically some Messianics have been gentile "philo-Semites" who have used the cover of Judaism as a Trojan horse to enter Israel with the purpose of turning it into a Christian nation, for the most part the Messianic community in Israel is made of upstanding citizens (most of whom were born Jewish) who go into the army (unlike most of their haredi antagonists), pay their taxes, vote, are peaceful, and lead a quite Jewish lifestyle. Their situation forces us to ask the uncomfortable question: Should people who have chosen to practice and interpret their Judaism differently from the majority (which itself was never hegemonic or monolithic), live in a (Jewish) state of fear and persecution? It seems that the unholy alliance between state and the ultra-Orthodox establishment
has created the absurd reality of inverse crypto-Judaism: Where in the medieval era Jews who had converted to Christianity kept their Judaism in secret, today many Messianics feel compelled to hide their beliefs from the rest of Israeli society. The price of disclosure may not be a visit to the Israeli equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, yet social ostracism, harassment, bullying, and state-sanctioned discrimination is enough to keep many (though not all) living secret lives. From its beginnings the twin purpose of Zionism has been the creation of a safe haven for Jewish people(s) and culture(s). Likewise, the Declaration of the establishment of the state of Israel promises to "open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew," and guarantees freedom of religion to all. Yet when organs of the state and its citizens discriminate against certain Jews for their beliefs, they are betraying the very core of the ground on which they stand on. Take for example Law of Return as it applies to Jewish-born Messianics. The notion that a Jew who accepts Jesus as the Jewish Messiah loses his/her right to make Aliyah is in complete contradiction with the purpose and logic of the law. It is bad enough to deny citizenship to a Jew who willfully converts to another religion (as the 1970 amendment to the law stipulates). It is something else all together to deny it to a Jew whose self-identity remains Jewish. Surely, antisemites do not care wither or not a Jew believes Jesus was the Messiah, or whether he/she is a Jew who converted to another faith. And from the perspective of the Law of Return, shouldn't the ubiquitous gaze of the antisemite be the deciding factor of whether or not someone is Jewish? Of course Israel can define for itself who counts as a Jew, but it should be consistent. Yes, the Messianics stand in two worlds. But so do many Israeli Jews. If you can be a Jew and an atheist, a Jew and a Buddhist – why can't you also be you a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Jewish messiah? If we are going to accept Jews whose self-identity does not snugly fit into one mold, then we need to make room for the Messianics as well. If we are going to say that Hitler and not Halacha determines who is a Jew, then we need to make room for Jews who also believe in Jesus — as Hitler would have done. In the end, the existence of Messianic Jews is good for Israel. It forces us to stretch the boundaries and re-think the definition of an Israeli Jew. The sad truth is that anyone who has a bone to pick with the Orthodox/state monopoly (the list is long) does not want to make cause with the Messianics. To align with them is to commit political suicide. But make no mistake: today it is the Messianics, and tomorrow it will be you.
POST A COMMENT
I agree with Roi Ben Yehuda. And I find his article to be well written, built upon wisdom demonsrated by his accurate view of ISRAEL today.
Who is a Jew? The answer is a person born in the family of Y’hudah. But wait a minute, did not Ya’akov have other sons. Were not the Sons of Ya’akov to become the Sons of Israel? So when the government tries to marginalize all other tribes by saying that you must be a Jew to be a citizen of Israel, it is an offense. All blessing came to Israel because of the covenant established with Avram while he was uncircumcised. It is written that Avraham was a friend of Elohim. How is this possible, you may ask? This is the same loving-kindness that was lavished on Avraham who was promised a son. Not the son who was born by the will of Avraham to an Egyptian, But the son that was promised by EL SHADDAI. Yes, this very same loving trust was practiced by Avraham while still uncircumcised to a degree that even his servants’ loved him and were counted a part of his own family. This same loving-kindness was extended to all who encountered Avraham for the first time while traveling. In other words, he was the kind of man who, upon meeting you, would invite you to sit down at his table to share a meal. He would then make arrangments for you to rest and if you were traveling, he would make sure you had all the provisions you needed before sending you away with his blessing of peace. This why Elohim established his covenant with Avraham in that he loved his God and his neighbor. So how is it that many of you cannot accept that GOD can reproduce a SON from HIS OWN LOINS just like every other living thing he created? It is written that man was taken from the dust of the earth, so there is no way we are talking about a man or nation being GOD’S only Unique Son.
Who could this be? I will tell you. He was not only the greatest Rabbi who came out of Israel, but HE also shook the whole Earth and is still shaking it today. HE came in the Name of YAH, and demonstrated the very same loving-kindness to all men even while we are sinners. HIS NAME IS YAHSHUA BEN YAH, born to the house of DAVID. There is no excuse for the leadership in ISRAEL today for their continued persecution of those who believe in the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. To say that this is a new religion is false because the law of redemption requires a kindsman redeemer. It is those who practise Judaism with borish, bigoted, hypocritical behavior who have apostisized. It is the religion of Judaism that has departed from the works of Avraham.
My brothers in Israel. You must be willing to fight the good fight of trust! Remember how YAH cursed all men 20 yrs old and over in the wilderness because they cried all night when they learned it was time to cross the river and fight? The government in Israel is clearly anti- Messiah when they can call an athiest, or a secular Jew A brother. And the orthidox need to be reminded that it is way of Elohim to place seed in all living things in order to procreate. How is it that God cannot follow his own law and have a SON?
Be angry but do not sin and do not keep silent but rebuke them for their unbelief without backing down!! After all effiminate men are in charge of the government and this is why the media walks all over the Jewish people. It is time to fight and resist all lies!
How can we be? Can we change our DNA, can we change our Family History? I find it disheartening that we cannot even Make Aliyah and the reason is that we acknowledge a dead man as Mashiach [which is not true we acknowledge G-d's son as Mashiach], when yet the Chabadniks and Bratslavers can make Aliyah! The right of Return is for all Jews, Observant, non observant, Messianic or not! It is our home as much as it is the home of other Jews! We have had our book stores bombed Shabbat services Interrupted by Charedim (Which is quite funny as technically this is violating Shabbat according to Halakha as what they did [they were quite violent and even unplugged our instruments (we follow Torah more so by what Torah and Messiah teaches we do Honour the Tradition however)]), and they even Desecrated the Sacred name of G-d that was on the book store that was Bombed. They have urinated on Bible (With the sacred name in them as they were Hebrew Bibles), and the Horrors go on! I do think that it is High time that Ha’aretz, where a Jew can be as Jewish or not Jewish as one wants, a Land that is supposed to be from persecution of Jews (Palestine is a different issue, they should go home to Jordan)! We love our homeland, and it is our homeland!
Iconclasm – Name one thing Yeshua (Jesus) did to offend or go against the tenants of Judaism ? He in His Own words said that He came to fulfill the law not go against it.
One is no longer a Jew because he/she believes in a Messiah ? - When the Messiah you think is coming, comes to Earth (this is false because Yeshua ,Messiah already came 2000 years ago) then you are going to denounce him/her and anyone whom believes in this Messiah , then you are going to call him a Non-Jew all over again ?
Discrimination against own people – wow if you are discriminating against your own people how can Israel stand ? – for Jesus said "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined" – now aint that the Truth man. Maybe all those nice soldiers should emigrate to Canada/USA – would they not be treated better in Iran than in Israel ?
Not A Jew if you believe in Yeshua ? – Yeah did you ask that person how he felt about his Judaism ? Hey a Messiah is going to come (hopefully has come) whether you want to believe in Yeshua or some future messiah…
Thankfully, Yeshua, Lord Son of God, Yeshua, The Messiah HAS come – what are waiting for ? Time to find out and embrace The Truth, The Way & The Life, Israel !
If you are looking for the Truth concerning The Messiah, you can heartfully ask G-d for the truth/answer and The Truth very hopefully will be given to You !
Special word for Bob Dylan will be shown one day to not only be a good Jew, but
someone who led the way into light
Respectfully , Shalom ! ???????
:)
Byron Whiteson – goy
No ! definitely not !
I am happy to sojourn among the nations , until Mosiach comes !
Tehillim – Psalms – Chapter 18 – 50. Therefore, I will give thanks to You, O Lord, among the nations, and to Your name I will sing praises.
Shalom
Hi there
I am a German citizen who rejected 40 years of "Luthernism" and "converted" to the "Orthodox-Yehudism way".
Tehillim – Psalms – Chapter 60 – 9. Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine, and Ephraim is the strength of my head; Judah is my lawgiver.
So, if Yehudah is the appointed lawgiver, who am I to complain?
I rejected Xianity long ago.
Not really sure wether to convert or be a Noahide,but i think with respect to Messianics maybe Will Shakespeare said it best.
"A rose by any other name,is still a rose"
First off I agree that any form of discrimination against anyone is wrong. But. Considering the tangled web that is the historical relationship between christians and jews, it is not so clear cut. I have attended a messianic congregation, and it seemed like littele more that christians wearing kippas! sorry. But for a jew, seeing a crucifix has been accompanied by pogroms and inquisitions for centuries. So its no wonder why isralis feel uneasy about a prosletyzing, growing, christian sect in Israel.
I recently found this article on the net. Thank you for having the courage to say these things. I and my family are Yeshuites (a branch of the “messianic Jewish movement). We are increasingly being ostracized and even harassed here in America. My children are mercilessly harassed by the gentile kids in school, but we can not move to a Jewish neighborhood. We have been quietly warned that our residence in a Jewish neighborhood would be short indeed. My spouse can not associate with anybody except a small group of women who share the same ethnic bonds as her. We have Prayers and Torah study at home. Sometimes this comes from Jewish and sometimes from gentile people, but the aim is always the same. That goal is to make clear that we are eventually going to be either forcibly made to become orthodox or we will be left to be killed by the gentile Jew haters. We have no place anywhere in the world to go where we can simply live, daven, study and love safely. Even Israel, is filled with hate for us. Some of my Lubavitch friends think Rav. Schneerson (of blessed memory) is coming back as the Messiah. They too are being quietly told that this will eventually lead to them suffering the same expulsion from Jewish society as the Yeshuites. The Breslov Jews who believe that Rav. Nachum (of blessed memory) is coming back as the Messiah. You can bet that they who believe that keep it quiet. I won’t deny my people. I will die in the next holocaust right along with them. I will watch as my family is taken away to be tormented or turned to something awful; but what hurts most is that my own people would “feed us to the gentile hoards”. [“…even if He should sly me, yet I will trust in Him”]. To answer the “what if the Nazis were Jews statement; Many of the leading Bolshevik murders of Jewish people in the Soviet union were in fact Jewish by birth. They turned away from HaShem and began to rely on the understanding of men instead of the Torah. By the way aren’t there Muslim Israelis? And Christian Israelis? How is it that they aren’t excluded from an “all Jew all the time” Israel? Is Israel going to be a freedom loving nation which is safe for its people? I would like to quote David Ben Gurion, “If somebody says they are a Jew, then they are a Jew”. We have no other G-d, we have no other people, we have no other country. Everywhere we go we will be trampled upon. If our brothers won’t be goel` to us we are all dead. Is that what the “normative” Jews want? Just like other religions, convert or die? Think about that next fall, as Yom Kippur approaches.
Hi all,
Pardon me for quoting a couple of famous Jews (Jesus and Paul).
"Salvation is of the Jews" (Jesus – John 4:22).
"If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. (Paul – Galatians 3:29).
The Old Testament that predicted the rebirth of the nation of Israel (Ezekiel 38:8) also predicts Israels eventual acceptance of their Messiah (Zechariah 12: 8-10). Ezekiel 38:8 was fulfilled in 1948. Zechariah 12:8-10 (and Zechariah 14) are obviously yet to be fulfilled prophecies.
When Zechariah 14:16 is fulfilled, we will have the calm beyond the storm. It will be a divine and permanent calm:
And the peoples will say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will give us knowledge of his ways, and we will be guided by his word; for out of Zion the law will go out, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3).
You may be interested in the following debate:
http://www.antipas.org/books/stern_debate/stern_1.html
PAH
Having been a member of 5 different messianic congregations and having friends in family in another 20 over 5 different states, I can tell you for a fact only 10 % if that of messianic jews are actually jewish. Messianic judaism teaches that there is no difference between jew and gentile and anyone can join. It is just another christian group dressing up in jewish clothes. The messianic jewish alliance requires that a congregation have atleast 10 born jews attending to become a member and that isn't jewish according to halachah.
"'I regard Yeshua of Nazareth as a Jew of Jews, one whom all Jewish
people are learning to love. His teachings have been an immense
service to the world in bringing Israel's G-d to the knowledge of
hundreds of millions of mankind' – Isidore Singer, the Jewish
Encyclopedia."
As far as I can tell this quote appears on Messianic websites. Usually the quote says Jesus and not "Yeshua." While there does not appear to be a source for this quote at all, particularly not in the Jewish Encyclopedia, even if these words were spoken by Isidore Singer, the quotation takes him out of context and applies it to a different subject entirely. This is of course dishonest. It is malicious falsification of the truth and defaming a Jew to imply that he might hold similar views to these messianic Jews. No one should be surprised by this, this is what these proselytizers do. They obscure the truth, they misquote, they ignore evidence that is contrary to their beliefs and they do it over and over again without shame. This is just another example of behavior that is emblematic of these evangelical groups such as, jews for jesus, and messianic jews.
Isidore Singer did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Please provide an accurate source for your quotation. I can not seem to find when and where he either said or wrote that quote. I certainly do not believe that such a reputable scholar would have called Jesus 'Yeshua' and it was not written in the Jewish Encyclopedia as you sourced. I checked.
So where did you get this quote? Who's next? It's not cool to defame Jews and call them apostates like yourself. I though you Jews for Jesus gave that up when you used Jackie Mason for one of your pamphlets and he rightfully sued your asses.
What you will most likely pray for is that I leave Judaism and become a Christian like you. Do you deny that you are a Christian? Do you deny that you believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ. The Nazi definition of who is a Jew does not work for me. Sorry I don't particularly care if we would have been bunkmates in the concentration camp, Nazis hated gay people too, it doesn't mean that gay people are defacto Jews. Nobody knows what Jesus said or did or believed because what was written about him was written long after his death. Really long, generations long. This is before CNN or newspapers or any documentary evidence. Frankly if Jesus believed himself to be the Christ then he was a Christian too, and even if Halachically he might be considered by some grudgingly as a Jew then he was an apostate Jew. He, like those who worship him are idol worshipers and have completely forsaken the Torah by worshiping an Idol.
Let's just pretend for a moment that your belief system wins out. That you messianic "Jews" or "Jews" for Jesus suceed in converting every Jew to your belief in Jesus as Christ. What then? What happens to Judaism then? Do you really think that your great grandkids will be Jewish. If you love the Jewish people like most of you proselytizing pseudo evangelicals say you do then stop blurring the lines and let us live as Jews who believe in Judaism.
As far as your last line I will write what you had to say my way:
You are not Jewish, and you will not live or die as a Jew because you embrace the one called Jesus for you believe that he is Christ, and you may pray to your idol for me but I will pray to God without intermediary that you will return to Judaism (if at any time that was what you really were) and once again be counted among the people who live and are Jews.
Anon,
Well, I have to tell that if we were both in Nazi Germany and I told the Nazis; I'm Jewish, but I believe in Yeshua, but this Jew next to me doesn't – I would guarntee, that it wouldn't make a difference. You and I would have probably make good bunk mate; seeing that I would still be obligated to you because I'm Jewish. I admit that the Jesus that is mainly presented by many Christians does not fit the Messiah of the Scriptures; for many wish to denounce Torah in His Name; however, almost of all Messianic Jews live Torah observant lifestyles, because Messiah taught that we should; He taught that we should keep Shabbat, celebrate the feasts and above obey Torah – "Do not think that I have come to destroy Torah, I did not come to destroy but fufill" – Yeshua HaMashiach.
As a Jew I do not see any conflict with believing in Yeshua as Messiah, nor do I see or read anywhere in the Scriptures that Yeshua taught His disciples and all who would come to Him to denounce Torah and the commandments of G-d. Modern Christianity, I admit has done a great deal to try to do away with Torah, but Yeshua did not; "Salvation comes from the Jews," is what He taught.
"I regard Yeshua of Nazareth as a Jew of Jews, one whom all Jewish people are learning to love. His teachings have been an immense service to the world in bringing Israel's G-d to the knowledge of hundreds of millions of mankind" – Isidore Singer, the Jewish Encyclopedia.
I'm still Jewish…, and will live as a Jew and die as a Jew, but I will embrace the One called Yeshua; for I believe that He is the Messiah; and I will pray for you…, Anon.
http://www.anti-racism.supanet.com/eth/g1.htm
Even in what most would call the most liberal movement of Judaism, Apostates such as Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews are refused burial in Jewish cemetaries unless it is suspected that they changed their minds at the last minute:
http://data.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respdisp.pl?file=236&year=narr
While it is true that officially you can not convert out of being a Jew according to Halacha, the apostate is considered to be outside of the tradition and people and their children will not be circumcised by any moyel. The fact it that Jews don't want apostates to be part of the Jewish community because we consider them to be beyond what is considered to be Jewish. If you believe that Christ is Christ that makes you Chrisitian. Duh! You go ahead and call yourself whatever you want. Maybe you can even convince a few real Jews to be an apostate like yourself if that's your goal. But real Jews will always know that you are a fraud. At best you are a fake Jew or at worst a real apostate. In either case you are a pariah and you should feel ashamed of trying to evangelize Christianity to destroy someone else's religion and people using disingenuous means. At least the Nazis were explicit in their goal of eliminating a people you just want to "complete" them out of existence.
Anon,
What is the basis for saying that a Jew can "convert out" from Judaism? I thought if your mother was Jewish you are Jewish? I haven't studied this issue and I'd be interested in an Jewish source on this.
Being a Jew is not simply about race. The blood that is in your veins is human blood not Jewish blood. The only people that talk about Jews being a different race are Nazis. Being a Jew is indeed nuanced but Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, that is what makes them Christians. Being a Jew is equally about what you believe and if it wasn't then there would never be any such thing as being a convert. Converting to or out of Judaism is the defining factor. If you believe that Jesus was Christ/Messiah then you have converted out, if you adopt Judaism as your religious belief (which does not accept Jesus as Christ/Messiah) then you have converted in and you become a Jew.
"Yehudi Meshichi (Messianic Jew): One who believes in Yeshua as Messiah of Israel and remains loyal to the state of Israel" – Ibn Shushan, Israel (Hebrew Dictionary). If being a Messianic Jew means that I am no longer Jewish; does this mean that the blood that runs in my veins and my childrens' veins has somehow miraculously changed? What happens to us; who has determined this? Surely, not any man…, we are Jewish. We love Israel; we love HaShem; we love Torah and we happen to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.
Unfortunately, there have been many things done to our people in the Name of Christ, but this was not the Christ of the Bible…, those who persecuted us in the Name of Christ followed a false Christ…, not the Messiah Yeshua. As a Messianic Jew, the evidence was made clear to me that Yeshua is the Messiah; and my loyalty to my people and to my land grows day by day. It is truly amazing to me that Jews who practice paganism, buddhism, those who believe that Scheernson is the Messiah and even those anti-zionist groups who support Iranian president Ahmadinejad (the one who wants Israel wiped off the face of the earth) are still considered Jews.
I don't think that you will find a more loyal Jew than the Messianic Jew. We love HaShem, we love Torah, we love Israel and yet, we are disliked by other Jews and Christians alike. Yet, amazingly, our loyalty never diminishes.., why? Because, this is what Messiah taught us; "Shema Yisrael Adonai, eloheinu, Adonai echad" – "Hear O' Israel the L-rd our G-d is One G-d."
As a Jewish believer in Yeshua; nothing can be more Jewish for us – Yeshua never taught us to deny our Jewish heritage. Throughout the Scriptures Yeshua supported all that was Torah and all that was of G-d; and this He taught us to hold on to by faith. We are faithful until the end in Yeshua and for the love of G-d; we are Jews no less no more. Shalom
1. Judaism 101 – I stand by my comment Judaism 101 is a terrible source of information on Judaism. The numbers of people that go to a site doesn't make it a good one. Plenty of people eat McDonalds it doesn't mean it's good food. Plenty of people go to the Kabbalah Center website and it doesn't mean it is a good source of info on Kabbalah. The author of the site from the very beginning makes comments like, she believes Orthodox Judaism is the oldest form of Judaism, which it is not, since Orthodoxy began as a reaction to Liberalism. That which begins as a reaction can not be first. etc etc… there are better Jewish websites out there. My Jewish Learning for one which has reputable sources.
2. Akivah - I was stating the difference between those who make a mistake about the messiah and how they ARE fallible. But the difference is that Akibah did not worship the messiah while Christians do. If you worship a person as God what makes that different from Idolatry. The polemic against idolatry is one of the primary reasons for Judaisms existence and the existence as Jews as a people through their religion. You pretty much have to ignore the Hebrew Bible in its entirety to not understand that.
3. Britanica -Thank you for supplying your quote, it made it easy to see how people can splice quotations to support their arguments even when they are contrary to the authors original beliefs. It's called academic dishonesty.
4. Hiloni – There is a difference between non-observance of a religious belief and active participation in another one like Christianity.
5. I'm not attacking your character or Christians. There's nothing wrong with being a Christian. There is something wrong with being a Christian and saying you are a Jew.
6. As far as the question of who is a Jew for the law of return in Israel, this is a political issue for Israel and I have no problem with Israel taking in those who have at least one Jewish grandparent. But that does not make the person they are taking in a Jew.
7. Have a nice trip
The post says Anonymous but the tone and words say Jeff…
That was not me. I log in before I post comments. Although I've been coming back from time to time to read new comments, I stopped participating because most of the opinions here are worthless. You really didn't understand my points, but, for the record (and regarding your comments about racism), I accept the definition of a Jew as someone who was born of a Jewish mother, or who has converted, formally – not merely joined a Messianic congregation and begun calling him/herself a "Jew". I don't agree with those who say that a Messianic Jew (if a Jew by birth) is no longer a Jew; however, he/she is not practicing Judaism, but a variant form of evangelical Christianity. If a Jew were to convert to mainstream Christianity, I would still have problems with granting him citizenship, but I'd be open to hearing arguments on either side. However, in the case of a Jew who becomes an evangelical or Messianic, and is blithely happy to abandon millions of other Jews to hell for all of eternity – I would certainly deny Israeli citizenship to such a person. As I said before, in adopting a belief in salvific exclusivism, that person has separated himself from the Jewish people.
On the imagined "Day of Judgment", they'll be cheerfully waving all the rest of us off to hell. But, in the meantime, when the American winters become too harsh, and they want to emigrate, all of a sudden, it's "Let me in; I'm one of you"? Screw them.
Give the Chabadniks some time. Most thought the Rebbe was the Moshiach. So what? Many Jews thought Bar Kochba was the Moshaiach too. The thought that the Rebbe was Moshiach even after he died was a reaction to the shock of his death that is slowly easing away. As more time passes, those who still believe the Rebbe is Moshiach will dwindle away.
In traditional Judaism, the moshiach is still just a man. There is nothing to suggest he won't have a wife, children and otherwise live a life similar to the great kings of Jewish history. Sort of a King Solomon plus. I don't think that is how Messianic Jews view Jesus, but perhaps someone can set me straight on that point.Do they view Jesus as just a man, a simple human being or something else?
1st Judaism 101 is a terrible website written by someone who by her own admission is not an expert.
2nd Rabbi Akiba was wrong but certainly his version of the messiah was not one that was worshiped like the idol Jesus.
3rd Regarding Leviticus 24:10 read the verse again: The verse speaks about a fight between and Israelite man and the son of an Israelite Woman and an Egyptian man. The verse implies that the fight was between half Israelite and a wholly Israelite man. The child of the Egyptian man and Israelite woman in the next verse reviled the Name (God), and then is put to death.
Nice source buddy.
Personally I don't look to that verse to clarify who is a Jew and neither do the Rabbis. But it does say that reviling God, who knows how (perhaps worshiping foreign gods) is a punishable offense. Punishable by stoning. But I admit this me giving midrash. It makes me think about your foreign Mithraist worship of a man named Jesus, but hey that's just me.
Lastly and not surprisingly you decided to creatively edit the Britanica defenition of a Jew leaving the inconvenient truth out of your quote. I will state what you omitted here, "Hebrew Yehudhi , or Yehudi any person whose religion is Judaism" and here is the link for anyone else to check… http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9043593/Jew
PS. Hiloni is not a different religion it just means secular or non-observant and you are not a post denominational Jew, you are a worshiper of Christ which makes you a Christian. Again Semantics are important. In the Jewish world post denominational means one who does not want to identify with the established streams of Judaism, all of which condemn Jews for Jesus and Messianic Judaism. These Jewish movements aren't the only ones who condemn this evangelical Christian organizations. Christian movements also condemn these evangelical Christian posers: The Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches among them.
By the way I'm not Jeff, and though you claim not to be a racist you mentioned that Jewish Race once again. Jews are not a "race" and we do not define ourselves entirely by our "stock" as you mentioned. Please refer to the Britannica article you brought into the discussion.
Yaakov 05/20/08 9:39 am – "What was the point of your quoting this"
"It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
Like aspirin it will cure a lot of headaches
Like aspirin it must be taken internally
The post says Anonymous but the tone and words say Jeff…
Anonymous 05/18/08 5:46 pm - "I for one am not a racist"…"What I'm interested in is semantics"
racist? racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others as opposed to someone who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
I don't know you well enough to make any such judgments on your person.
The semantics:
The position taken by some this issue: exclusive
The position taken by others: inclusive
My position is inclusive.
Speaking of semantics the question is… Who is a Jew?
From the Judaism 101 website Level: Basic
"The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion."
"Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism…It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do."
Rabbi Akiba believed Simeon ben Kosiba was the Moshiach
From the Jewish Encyclopedia (Our view)
"Leviticus 24:10 says that the son in a marriage between a Hebrew woman and an Egyptian man is "of the community of Israel.
From the Encyclopedia Britannica (The Worlds view)
"In more modern usage the word is often applied to any person of the Hebrew race, apart from his religious creed"
More than half of all Israelis describe themselves as hiloni (secular)
Roi Ben-Yehuda thank you for your this contribution on the issue
And thank you for indulging a post denominational Jew
Yochanan,
What was the point of your quoting this:
".Be careful O' Israel for by the rod you measure you will be measured."It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
Are you suggesting that Micah did not think the Torah was binding on Jews? Or, that the Torah would approve of a God that was more than one or that was somehow corporeal?
Annette, you can also be an Israeli Christian because the first word is a descriptor of a country and the second a religion. Judaism and Jews are not something that you separate. If you want to get rid of the concept of conversion then you can say that one doesn't ever cease to be what they currently are, but most people in the world understand that when one believes that Jesus is Christ they convert to Christianity. That's just the way it is. It's not the same as being a French Christian or a Chinese Christian. I'm Jewish and I don't have a Jewish Passport, a Jewish Birth Certificate etc… If you are French or Chinese guess what? You do.
A person can be any nationality and be a Christian. Just because they believe in Y'Shua doesn't change that. They can be Chinese Christian, French Christian, etc. It is a bogus argument that one ceases to be a Jew if they have believed the scriptures.
I for one am not a racist. I'm not interested in what stock you or anyone else is from. What I'm interested in is semantics. For thousands of years, belief in a messiah named Jesus made you a Christian (one who believes that a Christ (Christ meaning messiah) has come). This belief made people Christian and not Jewish. The faith of Jews has defined who Jews are for centuries. If you want to talk about stock then we are all from the same stock. According to Christianity which you believe in and Judaism which I believe in we all (the whole world) come from Adam. The word Jew is a descriptive word for people from Judea, and in today's world Jew means a person who follows or subscribes to a religion called Judaism. If there have always been communities of Jews who worshiped Jesus or believed he was the messiah and this was just ok with everyone then I suggest you find evidence for that. There is plenty of evidence that this new concept (Jews for Jesus, or messianic Judaism) is just another face of evangelical Christianity. If there are Jews who have been converted into this then I feel sorry for them but they "converted." They converted to something and they converted out of something also. Those who subscribe to Judaism and have clung to this faith and to each-other for millenia get to determine what the parameters of the word Jew means. As do most dictionaries and reasonable academics. If you worship a Christ that makes you a Christian and not a Jew. Really that's it. I don't think anyone is trying to be mean. I think people are trying to not confuse terms in such a way that people can be confused and walk into a "synagogue" and then find out it is actually a church. Unless deceit is your goal.
Anonymous
I didn't mean heresy I meant hearsay but heresy works too I suppose
I'm assuming by Yeshua you mean Jesus. And to answer that, nobody knows what Jesus considered himself to be because the only information about him was written in the Christian bible written long, long, long after he was dead. Additionally the leadership known as the Pharisees was written about long after he was dead too and what was written about them was written in Rome and probably slander to appease the Roman Christian community when the Judeans were in open revolt against Rome in the first century CE. So nobody knows if these alleged Jewish leaders even knew about Jesus. It's all heresy and your only source of evidence is the Christian Bible which we Jews don't believe is legitimate anyway. So go ahead and quote your "new testament" to us Jews. We don't buy it. Thanks.
Do you think that Yeshua considered himself a Christian and not a Jew? I don't nor did the Jewish leadership consider him anything but a Jew other wise they wouldn't have been so against him. They were threatened by him.
Well you got the guilt thing going for you. But if you are "Jewish chaplain" but not a ?rabbi? then you know that Judaism as a religion does not believe that Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, if you do then you're a Christian. There's nothing wrong with being a Christian ok. Embrace it. Enjoy it and I'll enjoy being Jewish. There's nothing wrong with being different.
Yochanan, you are not alone.
I for one appreciate Christians supporting Israel. But I'm not for calling Christians, Jews. If you happen to be someone who calls themselves a messianic Jew or a Jew for Jesus, I don't expect you to understand.
All these people who say that the early Christian Church or 'the disciples' were Jews and therefore they're belief in Jesus as messiah or the son of God or God on earth should not disqualify them from being a part of the Jewish people don't really study their Christian Bible.
1st Let's talk about Paul's conversion experience on the road to damascus. Is Paul early enough for you? If he was still Jewish and his messianistic beliefs didn't seperated him from the community why did he get baptized and also have a conversion experience. Conversion to what? Or more importantly conversion from what?
2ns Also in every section of the Christian bible it refers to the Jews as the other… it does not say 'we Jews.' If this is a Jewish text as these Christians claim then why do the texts refer to Jews as being separate from them.
3rd Additionally, one of the central concepts of the Hebrew Bible and this
is shared by Jews, is a rejection and abhorrence of the worship of
Idols. Idols can be a lot of things, they can be a stone object that
people worship as the manifestation of a deity, or they can people
too. Pharaoh, for example, in Egyptian belief was thought to be the
manifestation of a deity. Jews didn't like that too much if your
remember. Today people like American Idol, and while some people may
idolize them, lets just hope they don't worship them. But Christians,
and these "Jews for Jesus" worship this man Jesus. How is Jesus not an
Idol??? And if Jesus is an Idol, why would the Bible, or (if you
believe that God wrote the Bible), why would God spend so much time
abhoring idolatry only to create an idol for people to worship. Does
this make any rational sense?
4rth Budhism as a religion developed out of the Hindu world, partially as a critique of Hindu practices. Hindus don't call Budhists, 'Hindus' and Budhists don't call themselves "Hindus for Budha." Personally I think this is a comperable situation. Notice that early Buddhists were Indians so they were of the same ethnic background. But no one particulary cares about their background because they have separated themselves due to belief and faith and for them that's enough.
Lastly while this whole messianic Judaism is just a trojan horse I do believe that Jews who have a racial reason to fear persecution if some sort of Holocaust scenario ever were to happen again should be able to move like anyone else with Jewish roots to Israel. I believe they should have equal rights in Israel because they are human beings. But don't ask any Jew to accept that worshiping this Idol Jesus can be a valid expression of Judaism and don't ask any Jew to believe that this type of belief is not something that separates you from the Jewish community.
Do the "messianic jews" believe that Jesus is the Messiah who will return or do they believe he is "God"? The first approach is not much different from the messianic Chabadniks. The second approach is not compatible with Judaism.
Being Jewish means you Messianics have to have all these crazy people commenting above as part of your family – you ready for that?
(Anonymous 05/13/08 7:15 am)
I have no problem calling people who believe Shneerson was the messiah Christian. And excluding them from the Jewish community.
Um….so there
Jeff,
While I don't know Toni and by reading your replies I know your are very passionate about what you believe to be true. But, anger and the such aside… Stop and think a minute…
"It bears little to no resemblance to the Messianism of Jesus' early Jewish followers."
Toni and the other didn't write the documents they profess to believe in. They were written for and by "Messianic Jews" of that era and yes they reflect the very belief of the Messianic Jews that era. It was not written for you or anyone else who choses not to believe what the authors wrote. You are free to accept or reject their beliefs and should have no bearing.
No one here is going to change their beliefs based on this issue and is not the point of discussion… The discussion is and should be: Who is a Jew according to the flesh for the purpose of the law of return. Be they Orthodox, Conservative, other or none of the above. It is a legal issue we are discussing.
Are the Jews starting Messianic Jewish synagogues in order to lure apostate Jews back to Judaism?
You know, we invite you in, and even though it's a synagogue you feel comfortable because you hear yeshua in the liturgy. We encourage those without circumcisions to get them, and to keep kashrut. Slowly but gradually, we mention Jesus less and less, and speak of "sages" and "tzadikkim" more. Eventually, the deception works and we have Jews observant of Judaism.
Come on, you can't find these places all over the map!?
Anymous (04/29/08 11:29),
"If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah then you are by default a 'CHRIST-IAN.' I mean do people really think we are so stupid that we don't understand etymology, did we just forget that this is what Christian means?"
Well, if you know the "etymology," then you would know that 72 of Israel's best Sages in c. 300 BCE commandeered the word "Christ" to translate the Hebrew "Mashiach." So, in your reasoning it follows that 'if you believe that Shneerson is the Messiah then you are by default a 'CHRIST-IAN.'
PS It is also interesting that a resent proselyte who converted internationally with the Chabad, was denied by the Israeli Orthodox Beit Din. Why? Because he answered "yes" when they asked him if he thought Shneerson was the messiah. The Orthodox called them "meshichim," messianics, i.e. "Messianic Jews!"
Anonymous (05/01/08 12:26),
"But let us be clear. Shneerson has not made it into these 'Chabadniks'' liturgy as representative of God but in 'Messianic Judaism' Jesus has. … These aren't small differences."
I would just like to point out that when the Jewish community suspected Shabbati Tzvi (1600's) of being the messiah, prayers were inserted into the liturgy all over Europe. (see Jewish Encyclopedia)
And let's be clear. As a Jew you can pray to Baal, Ashera, Tammuz, Satan, Buddha, or no one at all, yet still be embraced by the Jewish State of Israel.
You just can't be a Jew, pray to HaShem, believe Jesus is the messiah, and be accepted by the Jewish State of Israel.
If you read the Old and New Testament or what some call the Complete Jewish Bible, and provide a rationale why we should just believe you are right it would be more convincing than your probable bias, which is how many of us Jews feel just by hearing the word "Jesus". Yeshua was his hebrew name.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Question… of all those who have been proclaimed as a Jewish messiahs, and the list is long ( I know of fifty) how many have the gentiles put their trust in?
Only Jews argue about who is considered a Jew. enough said.
Read in the books of Moses… 'Thought it was written in there that if those who came and embraced the Jew's laws or married into the Jewish bloodline "and were content"; they were to be allowed. Is the story of Joshua's spies and Rahab not part of that history? Elitism and discrimination kills the Creator's purpose of peace and interest to convert to Judaism. It divides a nation…regardless, of Whom the Jews believe is Messiah. Can Israel afford to be like the secular world in its choice to bite the hands that help, love, serve and pay their taxes to Israel ? So what's next, exclude Jews of other Jewish sects or who are ambivalent or flat-out don't care about the nation, or its government? In the times of Moses, weren't there 12 tribes? I doubt they were all identical…what they had in common was BLOOD. Have Jews moved from the persecution symbol of wearing a Star of David on their sleeve under Hitler to wearing it on their sleeve as a standard of self-gratifying acceptance in their homeland? Take note. Different values for "Classification of Jews" is very close to practices exemplified by terrorists sects against Israel. Classification by faith practice it is merely more subtle & deceptive. Want to know what happens? Look at the 500+ yr. history of tribes & the U.S. gov't's Dawes Act scoring residents by caucasian judgment standards. Hundreds of thousands were "assimilated" into oblivion IN THEIR HOMELAND…they have NO homeland.
Men do not have to legislate by political selection. Is it not better to have trust in the Highest Founding authority of Israel, and keep the laws of His design in affording dignity, honor, respect and equal human rights to Jews who love the great nation of Israel ? What? Did the Creator of Israel suddenly default in his capacity to protect his people from themselves? Do the Jews trust more in their own arm of strength than they do to wait upon HIS ability to keep this beloved nation of the sheep of His pasture? Amazing, how this suddenly has become a need after thousands of years of His direction! Stop bickering like children! Some of us who have NO birthright love your nation, weep and pray for your people and would serve Israel unto the death if our bloodline would allow us to "measure UP". The has proven to be no god like that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for thousands of years!
Well Jeff, as an atheist what do you care? It is so funny these atheists spend more time talking of and about God then most Jews or Christians….Jeff your a mockery to the atheist religion.
I find it scary how deluded some of these comments are. Just because the Nazis didn't know any better and didn't bother to look up what being Jewish really was doesn't grant the messianics any validity. The J. Witnesses were persecuted but I don't see them clamoring to join the local minyan. Just because a group supports Israel (even ardently) doesn't make them Jewish either. A huge number of Christian churches are zealous in their love for the Jewish state. And please, enough with the "Jewish blood/genes" business. Being Jewish is more than biology. Indeed if you are born a Jew you are always granted a way back, BUT, you can shut the door behind you on your way out. A Jew can cut him or herself off from the People by practicing other faiths and make no mistake, IT IS a different faith.
To be clear: Messianism (a term I use because "messianic judaism" makes me ill) is not a different form of Judaism, it is a completely different faith. And for those who say, what of "Buddhist Jews?" I must remind them that Buddhism doesn't encourage Jews to follow a false messiah. An atheist who was born Jewish is Jewish by blood alone but at least does not seek to penetrate and infect Judaism from within.
Jews who convert to messianism choose to cut themselves off by accepting the teaching that are sages knew to be false whereas gentiles who convert to messianism are simply not Jews. I feel sorry for those gentiles who wish to find true Judiasm and fall prey to unscroupulous "rabbis" who tell them they can convert to their brand of messianism and find acceptance in the Jewish fold.
In reference to a response I recieved: yes, the early (really early) church fathers were Jews. That is where it ends. Sorry. Our sages quickly recognized the nascent Christian faith for what it was and future generations of Christians (by their own design) severed their ties to Judaism. They became separate faiths because Judaism is not and cannot be compatible with the divinity or messianic status of Jesus. As I said, there is NO continuous messianic culture and it wasn't until modern times that this idea was rehashed. We endured through the centuries and wrote down what we learned. Our sages knew best. Period.
Please, do not profess a love of a people if you think that our most venerated sages got it all wrong. How can you call yourselves Jews and misquote our teachings, twist translations of Torah, and believe in ideas that we resisted even under pain of torture. For those who were once Jews: teshuva is an option, for those who are messianic: true Judaism is open to sincere converts.
I, and my people, continue to resist. Wake up!
You know absolutely nothing about me, Jeff, or my beliefs, which you are sadly mistaken about. I didn't come here to argue, or incur name calling. You obviously know nothing about what Messianics believe, or have erroneously stereotyped the faith, and most of all, you have failed to at least be honest;
I certainly am not mistaken. As I said, I've seen your blog. You're a salvific exclusivist; you believe that those who fail to acknowledge Jesus will spend eternity in hell. I have not stereotyped your faith; this position is in the doctrinal statements of both the UMJC and the MJAA. It is you who cannot successfully defend your position. Your belief system is not a form of Judaism; it is conservative evangelical Christianity masquerading as Judaism. It bears little to no resemblance to the Messianism of Jesus' early Jewish followers. Even your rationalizations are those used by Christian fundies – we’re Pharisees, we’re being dishonest, we know the "truth" but are too "prideful" to admit it.
or perhaps I hit a nerve of truth with you that you are too prideful to admit.
Your comments are quite typical of those who cannot defend his position, one resorts to attacking the messenger.
You people love to position yourselves as the harbingers of "truth", the emissaries to the "lost"; it feeds your egos. You love to play the victim card as well; any opposition you encounter, you see as "persecution" that validates the rightness of your position.
You’re no “student of the Bible”, Toni; you’re just someone who has swallowed, without discernment, everything you’ve been told – and it's the most hateful crap in all of human history. Go peddle it elsewhere.
In some ways what you are doing is worse, since you would deny these
people the security of life in Israel, while they would deny you the
security of the afterlife.
Beliefs aside, this is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I would deny these people the "security" of life in Israel (and how is life in Israel more "secure"?), while they would not merely deny me eternal life; they would condemn me along with billions of other human beings to hell for all of eternity – and this somehow makes my position worse? Evangelicals, fundamentalists and Messianics are spiritual Nazis; in fact, they are worse than the Nazis. The Nazis merely wanted to exterminate us; they didn't give a damn about what, if anything, happened to us in the afterlife. These people adhere to a belief system that would sentence billions of their fellow human beings to eternal, indescribable physical and mental torment. It's an obscenity, and it should no longer be tolerated. It should be stigmatized; they should be driven back to the margins of society where they festered for decades after the Scopes trial, until their leadership got them all worked up in the seventies and eighties.
In any case – it is the Messianics who have excluded themselves from the Jewish people. What they are practicing isn't merely something different from Judaism but is antithetical to it, and they should in no way be treated merely as Jews who have adopted a somewhat heterodox set of beliefs.
Hey Jeff,
You want to exclude the Messianic from being Jewish because of their faith in salvation by way of Jesus. In other words, you are excluding them for being exclusive. Don't you see a performative contradiction in that? By your own logic should you not also be excluded from the Jewish people? In some ways what you are doing is worse, since you would deny these people the security of life in Israel, while they would deny you the security of the afterlife. Your position has potentially real consequences while their position is simply false (you are an atheist, right?). News flash, Jews sometimes believe ugly and false beliefs, but should that be a criteria for exclusion?
Jeff Eyges said:
"Toni,
The belief system professed by today's Messianic "Jews" is not the same belief system held by the early Jewish followers of Jesus. Your belief system is today's evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, largely of the Reformed/Calvinist variety, with a thin veneer of Jewish symbolism.
I've seen your blog; you're an imbecile. Don't come here to lecture us about "simple honesty"; you should have the "simple honesty" to acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about."
*********
Hello Jeff:
You know absolutely nothing about me, Jeff, or my beliefs, which you are sadly mistaken about. I didn't come here to argue, or incur name calling. You obviously know nothing about what Messianics believe, or have erroneously stereotyped the faith, and most of all, you have failed to at least be honest; or perhaps I hit a nerve of truth with you that you are too prideful to admit.
Your comments are quite typical of those who cannot defend his position, one resorts to attacking the messenger.
Toni
http://FilesFromToni.blogspot.com
From the Guidelines for Lutheran-Jewish Relations of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America:
Fantastic, fair-handed article.
For all those who believe Messianic Jews are not Jewish, I would ask
you for simple honesty. You must admit that the writers and Biblical
people in the New Testament or New Covenant were all Jewish, correct?
From all that is written, they were observant Jews, but they still
followed and believed in Jesus/Yeshua, also Jewish. Correct?
So why do you call this belief "Christian" and not Jewish as if it
were some other worldly religion? The New Covenant or New Testament
and the belief in Jesus Christ (Messiah) is completely Jewish!
I know that as a student of the Bible, you are wearing the same
shoes as the pharisees that rejected the Messiah who confronted him
daily, but at least be honest and admit that Christianity is a Jewish
faith, born in the land of Israel with Torah as its foundation.
Toni,
The belief system professed by today's Messianic "Jews" is not the same belief system held by the early Jewish followers of Jesus. Your belief system is today's evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, largely of the Reformed/Calvinist variety, with a thin veneer of Jewish symbolism.
I've seen your blog; you're an imbecile. Don't come here to lecture us about "simple honesty"; you should have the "simple honesty" to acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about.
For all those who believe Messianic Jews are not Jewish, I would ask you for simple honesty. You must admit that the writers and Biblical people in the New Testament or New Covenant were all Jewish, correct? From all that is written, they were observant Jews, but they still followed and believed in Jesus/Yeshua, also Jewish. Correct?
So why do you call this belief "Christian" and not Jewish as if it were some other worldly religion? The New Covenant or New Testament and the belief in Jesus Christ (Messiah) is completely Jewish!
I know that as a student of the Bible, you are wearing the same shoes as the pharisees that rejected the Messiah who confronted him daily, but at least be honest and admit that Christianity is a Jewish faith, born in the land of Israel with Torah as its foundation.
God's prophet Jeremiah wrote in Jeremiah Chapter 31:
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a "new covenant" with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.
But this shall be the covenant that I shall make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. vs. 31-34.
Jesus The Messiah was a foreshadow of the things to come and He fulfilled the "Old Covenant". He is the New Covenant spoken of by Jeremiah. When the Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans, just as prophesied by Messiah Jesus, Jesus paid the penalty for sin for Jews and Gentiles when He was sacrificed for the sins of the human race. When Jesus the Messiah gave His blood, the temple veil was torn in twain and God moved out of that earthly man made temple, as He was done with it and animal sacrifices once and for all. There will not be another temple until Christ returns and establishes His Kingdom, where He will rule and reign on David's throne out of Jerusalem, Israel.
Shalom from
Toni at http://FilesFromToni.blogsot.com
Hava, the Christian Bible, what you might call the New Testament fulfills the prophecies that you point out because it was written to fulfill the prophecies that you are pointing out. It's pretty easy to write a story to fulfill prophecy. Let me give you an example. As time rolled on and we moved further along in the timeline after the death of Jesus, there were those who focused more and more on Jesus' earlier life. Interestingly the content of stories that focus on Jesus' birth and early years are written longer after his death and then those which focus on his later life. Now if one were to read Jesus' early story we notice biblical parallels. First Jesus was taken from a tyrant who wanted to kill all the first born of Bethlehem. This sounds familiar doesn't it? Sort of like Pharoah. Only this time to escape they flee to Egypt. This is called a biblical motif. It is just another illustration of how what is written about Jesus is part of a genre of literature. If this hero genre of literature is common to pre Jesus Biblical culture and even to non Israelite culture it would lead one to believe that this is not historical. If this literature is not historical then of course it could fulfill any prophesy in anyway if that were the purpose of its composition in the first place. But Jews have believed the Messiah would bring about a perfect period of peace and in-gathering of exiles and this is a pretty hard prophecy to fulfill in literature and not in reality. People notice when that sort of criteria isn't fulfilled. When Jesus died and this prophecy did not occur these followers of Jesus experienced cognitive dissonance (don't know what that means? Look it up.). If their messiah failed they could just rewrite the rules. Sorry, Jews just don't believe this stuff. It's not how you say…us. It is however Christian. As for Jews who believe in Buddhism wikka etc… at least they call themselves Jewish Budhists and Jewish Wikkans. There is not confusing what they are. If you want to be honest then call yourselves Jewish Christians and then see what kind of response you will get. Calling yourselves Messianic Jews and then pretending you aren't Christian is disingenuous at best.
Messianic Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. They are Messianic because they believe that Yeshua fulfills the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah found in the Old Testament. Why should believing that Yeshua is the Messiah make people of Jewish descent non-Jews? After all Yeshua was Jewish. There are atheist Jews, Jews who practice witchcraft, superstitious Jews. Does this make them non-Jews? It's not-sensical to believe that Messianic Jews are not Jews. They haven't changed their religion; they just believe the prophecies that are found in the following books of the Old Testament:Yosi,
I don't think that reasonable people would say that those who claim to be messianic Jews aren't nice human beings, the problem is really an issue of semantics. Everyone has a right to their beliefs; in fact, what people have believed has been a defining aspect of people's identities. Among others, one of the defining aspects of Jewish identity for over the last few thousand years has been a belief in the coming of the Messiah. This belief has set us apart from those who were called Christians. This group of Christians held a very different belief. They believed that the messiah had already come and the would come again. The reason for the name Christians is due to the Greek word for Messiah. This is why Jesus is called Jesus Christ. Christ is not Jesus' last name, rather it is an honorific that means messiah. This is the problem. Whereas Jewish people have for thousands of years maintained a faith which excludes Jesus as the messiah, now all of a sudden a group, mostly made up of gentiles which has some people who can be ethnically linked to Jewish ancestors are claiming to be Jewish. The Jewish people's faith has always been Judaism. If one were to believe that the Messiah=Christ has come, then they become, by default, Christian. When someone becomes Christian they aren't Jews anymore. It's not a reflection on their niceness or their commitment to the state of Israel, it's just that these people do to their beliefs are not Jews. There are those who believe that Judaism is in the blood and that Jews make up a race but most people believe that the practice of the religion has been a more credible defining element of one being a Jew.
Anti-Messianic forces in Israel are trying to bar a young messianic Jew from competing in a bible compitition. According to JTA,
"Lipschitz argued that Levy, who comes from a family of messianic Jews — who believe Jesus is the messiah — should not be considered Jewish. He also included an apparent appeal to prestige: the fear of traditional Jews being shown up in Bible knowledge by someone who has mastered the New Testament as well.
In his letter, which was leaked to the Israeli daily Ma’ariv, Lipschitz said Levy "has a chance of becoming the world Bible champion," and this could "greatly encourage" the spread of Christianity among Jews.
Several leading sages signed on, threatening a boycott of the quiz. Levy is slated to face off against 15 young biblical scholars from Israel and the Diaspora.
“Once they used to wage crusades in order to bring us closer to Christianity," warned Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, a leader of the national religious movement. "Now they work by other means.”
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/200805020501biblequiz.html#comment
I have been reading your articles and find you to be an intelligent
person, and was impressed by your little bit of understanding of
Christianity. Your statement that "no Messianic Jew feels that they are
bound by their Jewish Covenant" is incorrect.
Yermiyah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the
house of Judah; 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their
fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of
the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was
a lord [*husband] over them, saith HaShem. 33 But this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith
HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart
will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people;
34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man
his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will
forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. [text
from The 1917 Jewish Publication Society Tanakh]
Read Yesha'yahu (Iseah) and Dani'el (Daniel) as none should be
forbidden, (Why would Ha Shem forbid His children to read His word!) In
these books it explains about the Messiah coming, being
persecuted…and coming again. Yeshua fullfilled almost all…except His second coming. Then there will be peace.
In the B'rit Hadasha = new covenant (also known as the new testament)
in Mattiyahu (Matthew 5:17) It says that Yeshua did not come to abolish
the law, but to fulfill it…meaning to fill the Tanakh (as the
Tanakh's aim is the Messiah). He merely wanted to explain the laws full
meaning, so that EVERYONE not just the "Rabbi's" would understand it's
true meaning, as it is true of the Halakhah which was given to Elders
in the Messianic community by the Messiah.
Yes, we believe that through Yeshua (Jesus) is our Salvation that He is
the Messiah, who came and is to come again. We also believe that the
Torah is valid, but as Jesus taught it, it is obedience of the heart.
You are correct,
Messianic Jews/ Christians = oximoron,
however, Most Messianic Jewish communities read from a Hebrew
perpective and spirit and culture, while many Christian churches still
have a "Greek" spirit and culture.
About me: My mother was a Christian, and my father was Jewish. His
Grandfather and all grandfathers before him where Cantors. I do not
know many of my family on his side as they where killed in the
concentration camps. He taught me alot about my heritage AND
inheritance, but it wasn't until I believed in Yeshua, that I truly
understood my bloodline.
I love my brothers and sisters as much as any Jew, and being a Jew who
believes that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah doesn't make me any less
Jewish than any Jew. I have gotten a door slammed in my face wearing a
star of David, and am persecuted as much as any Jew (I look like my
dad).
By the way…. regarding three G-d's… Ha Shem, Ruach Elohim and
Yeshua the Son, doesn't Elohim imply a plurality?.. B'resheet (Genesis)
I have been reading your articles and find you to be an intelligent
person, and was impressed by your little bit of understanding of
Christianity. Your statement that "no Messianic Jew feels that they are
bound by their Jewish Covenant" is incorrect.
Yermiyah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the
house of Judah; 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their
fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of
the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was
a lord [*husband] over them, saith HaShem. 33 But this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith
HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart
will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people;
34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man
his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will
forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. [text
from The 1917 Jewish Publication Society Tanakh]
Read Yesha'yahu (Iseah) and Dani'el (Daniel) as none should be
forbidden, (Why would Ha Shem forbid His children to read His word!) In
these books it explains about the Messiah coming, being
persecuted…and coming again. Yeshua fullfilled almost all…except His second coming. Then there will be peace.
In the B'rit Hadasha = new covenant (also known as the new testament)
in Mattiyahu (Matthew 5:17) It says that Yeshua did not come to abolish
the law, but to fulfill it…meaning to fill the Tanakh (as the
Tanakh's aim is the Messiah). He merely wanted to explain the laws full
meaning, so that EVERYONE not just the "Rabbi's" would understand it's
true meaning, as it is true of the Halakhah which was given to Elders
in the Messianic community by the Messiah.
Yes, we believe that through Yeshua (Jesus) is our Salvation that He is
the Messiah, who came and is to come again. We also believe that the
Torah is valid, but as Jesus taught it, it is obedience of the heart.
You are correct,
Messianic Jews/ Christians = oximoron,
however, Most Messianic Jewish communities read from a Hebrew
perpective and spirit and culture, while many Christian churches still
have a "Greek" spirit and culture.
About me: My mother was a Christian, and my father was Jewish. His
Grandfather and all grandfathers before him where Cantors. I do not
know many of my family on his side as they where killed in the
concentration camps. He taught me alot about my heritage AND
inheritance, but it wasn't until I believed in Yeshua, that I truly
understood my bloodline.
I love my brothers and sisters as much as any Jew, and being a Jew who
believes that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah doesn't make me any less
Jewish than any Jew. I have gotten a door slammed in my face wearing a
star of David, and am persecuted as much as any Jew (I look like my
dad).
By the way…. regarding three G-d's… Ha Shem, Ruach Elohim and
Yeshua the Son, doesn't Elohim imply a plurality?.. B'resheet (Genesis)
I have been reading your articles and find you to be an intelligent person, and was impressed by your little bit of understanding of Christianity. Your statement that "no Messianic Jew feels that they are bound by their Jewish Covenant" is incorrect.
Yermiyah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the
house of Judah; 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their
fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of
the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was
a lord [*husband] over them, saith HaShem. 33 But this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith
HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart
will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people;
34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man
his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will
forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. [text
from The 1917 Jewish Publication Society Tanakh]
Read Yesha'yahu (Iseah) and Dani'el (Daniel) as none should be forbidden, (Why would Ha Shem forbid His children to read His word!) In these books it explains about the Messiah coming, being persecuted…and coming again. Yeshua fullfilled almost all…except His second coming. Then there will be peace.
In the B'rit Hadasha = new covenant (also known as the new testament) in Mattiyahu (Matthew 5:17) It says that Yeshua did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it…meaning to fill the Tanakh (as the Tanakh's aim is the Messiah). He merely wanted to explain the laws full meaning, so that EVERYONE not just the "Rabbi's" would understand it's true meaning, as it is true of the Halakhah which was given to Elders in the Messianic community by the Messiah.
Yes, we believe that through Yeshua (Jesus) is our Salvation that He is the Messiah, who came and is to come again. We also believe that the Torah is valid, but as Jesus taught it, it is obedience of the heart. You are correct,
Messianic Jews/ Christians = oximoron,
however, Most Messianic Jewish communities read from a Hebrew perpective and spirit and culture, while many Christian churches still have a "Greek" spirit and culture.
About me: My mother was a Christian, and my father was Jewish. His Grandfather and all grandfathers before him where Cantors. I do not know many of my family on his side as they where killed in the concentration camps. He taught me alot about my heritage AND inheritance, but it wasn't until I believed in Yeshua, that I truly understood my bloodline.
I love my brothers and sisters as much as any Jew, and being a Jew who believes that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah doesn't make me any less Jewish than any Jew. I have gotten a door slammed in my face wearing a star of David, and am persecuted as much as any Jew (I look like my dad).
By the way…. regarding three G-d's… Ha Shem, Ruach Elohim and Yeshua the Son, doesn't Elohim imply a plurality?.. B'resheet (Genesis)
They were ALL Jewish!!!
My best friend is a Messianic Jew, and I have several other friends who also practice "Messianic Judaism". They are, in short, wonderful people! People I love, trust and respect.
I met my buddy in the IDF, and he is nothing but a sabra, a Jew and a religious Zionist. When he invited me to his brother's bar mitzvah, he "warned" me that they are Messianic Jews.
From what I had heard about this group, I was scared to death! But it turned out that the Messianic Jews are a warm and friendly bunch. The rumors about them are rarely true: They are not weird or crazy extremists, neither are they deceitful missionaries. Sure, they believe that their faith is true (why else believe in it), and they believe in telling others about it. But forcing or manipulating their faith upon people? That's not what _I_ have experienced during years of friendship with several Messianic Jews. I have visited several Messianic Jewish synagogues, and they pretty much daven like we do, only adding the New Testament and "Yeshua" to the services.
I respectfully disagree with some of their beliefs, such as belief in "Yeshua" as the messiah, the trinity and the New Testament. But I also disagree with Reform Jews, and with the Haredim!
From my experience, Messianic Jews are simply Jews. They worship Hashem, they believe the Torah mitzvot must be kept forever, they celebrate Jewish holiday, they rest on Shabbat and keep kosher etc. etc. They circumcise their sons on the 8th day, they fight in the IDF, they work, pay their taxes, are loyal citizens of Israel, and in every way they are good, moral, decent people, religious Zionists… They have my respect, my love and my friendship.
So stop the ignorance, the lies and the misinformation about this group!
I love my fellow Jews, and that includes Messianic Jews.
Haskel Lookstein, 76, notoriously energetic and busy, has been leader of Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun and the Ramaz day school for more than half a century, building them into two of the most important Jewish institutions in New York City. He has also served as president of the New York Board of Rabbis, chairman of the Greater New York Conference on Soviet Jewry and president of the Synagogue Council of America, among other positions.
You two have a long history together of raising controversial issues.
Yes, Naftali–if you wish to point out that a born Jew who believes in the Christian Messiah is still a Jew–yes, you are correct.
My point was to object to Daniel (this is far too easy since almost everything he says is incorrect) where he made an improper analogy to Chabad.
Israel cannot persecute messianic Jews but does not need to legitimate their theology as equivalent to normative Judaism. Further, my poin that the majority are not Jewish must be understood and as for those who are Jewish by birth, as individuals, they are as Jewish as anyone else–the theology is obviously not kosher and that is the problem.
OK?
How can you describe Israel as one of the most culturally diverse places on the planet when the country has a deliberate policy to exclude Palestinians their right of return? The country has a mounted separation wall between the two cultures and ethnicities. This isn't common in most places of the world, therefore Israel is less diverse than most places. Israel has a policy that ensures the state maintains a Jewish majority, therefore Israel consciously discriminates non-Jewish people. Most countries don't consciously disallow people a place to live based on their cultural adherence or ethnic background. This is not an example of a culturally diverse society. To call Israel a place for everyone is absurd since it's every intent is to keep this territory Jewish, even if it means cruel discrimination.
Oy Vey..I guarantee we are All sinful regardless of our religious beliefs!
By jewish law, many of these people are Jews. they may be sinful but they are still jews.
It seems you're arguing away from the article, and to be honest, I haven't followed the entire thread.
But you are both saying that you disagree with the Messianics, which is fine. But are you also saying that because of that disagreement, they have forfeited their rights–if they are Jews in the classical Jewish mother way?
I think you've got a pretty rickety bridge leading from disagreement to legal action. If you could take the time, please, to really focus on that bridge, elaborate it clearly–that's where the discussion should be.
It is unbelievable that people that have been treated so horribly can actually turn around and do the very same thing to another human being. So, it's not acceptable to discriminate against me or hate me for being different but it IS acceptable for me to discriminate against you and hate you for being different? There is absolutely no logic in that type of thinking. When will the world wake up? I'm so tired of people playing this really bad game of who is a real Christian? Who is a real Jew? People spend more time worrying about what religion you are than actually treating their fellow human beings with some compassion, understanding and basic respect – which I might add is supposed to be the basis of ANY religion but it seems most people today are so busy being "religious" they completely forget that. Roi – keep up the good work. Someone has to have some common sense and stand up for what is right.
To the anonymous person and the Eliayahu who stated that a Chabad Jew is not a Jew–on the last point first, please, that is incorrect on its face. Every Chabad rabbi and member in good standing is fully Jewish.
Further, the reason this is not a controversy is because there are many although not quite the majority of Chabaniks who will completely deny any messianic standing for the late Rebbe–who all Jews recognize as one of the two or three GREAT Rabbis of the past century without question. Additionally, Chabad should not be scorned since there is nothing foundational in their claim–such as it is. Having studied the Chabad siddur–there is no mention of the late Rebbe and all the prayers are boilerplate Orthodox Judaism with minor differences.
The contrast with Messianic "Jews" is overwhelming. Their theology is drenched in the claimed divinity of their false prophet, they are normally not Jews by birth, they hold no normative Jewish practices or laws–they have only some superficial trappings of Judaism.
This has no comparison with Chabad which is fully Jewish in belief and practice. The call make the two equal is a joke and a complete distortion of the truth.
As for the claim for the Rebbe, Chabad has already moved away from the claim and it is likely that the claim with quell over time.
I look at this paradoxically. One of the main activities of Messianics is to convert others to their viewpoint–and the only way this can happen is through dialogue. And I think it is an unqualified good thing for Jews to talk about (re: argue) about religion and Torah. And if some Messianic dude or dudess just cracks your beliefs because they are more knowledgeable, then Jews should go study more Torah.
If you are well-versed in Torah, and still the discussion leaves you scratching your head, then study it differently, perhaps using a telescope when studying text rather than a microscope. To me, this is the problem we've had since Sinai, and Moses complained about it to Gd–that we aren't getting the teaching. I think the narrative of Israel wandering shows there is something we aren't quite getting.
The bottom line, it can only make Jews more conversant in what we've been commanded to converse about. I mean, is anyone really afraid of their words, like they might actually convince you to think of Gd in human and finite form? Let them come, and let them come to dinner.
And that's my two sheckels.
I take exception to Messianic Jews who wish to claim the Right of Return, and it has nothing to do with their belief in Jesus.
Firstly, I don't altogether trust the figure of 350,000, if we're going to define a Messianic Jew as "a person who was born Jewish or converted to Judaism, who is a 'genuine believer' in Yeshua [Jesus], and who acknowledges his Jewishness." I don't know what the situation is like in Israel, but, here in the States, most people who identify as Messianic Jews aren't actually of Jewish ancestry. In many Messianic congregations, especially in the South and Midwest, more than half of the members are gentiles who have simply taken to calling themselves "Messianic Jews". They are evangelical Christians who have taken the current fad of Judeophilia to its extreme. They tire of "vanilla" Christianity and are attracted to the Messianic subculture because it seems exotic, but allows them to remain safely under the banner of Christianity – so, in their view, they aren't endangering their "salvation".
Regarding the issue of Messianics of Jewish ancestry being allowed to make aliyah: It is certainly true that there are many Jewish Atheists, Buddhist, Pagans, etc., and no one questions their Jewish credentials; however, Christianity, as others are pointing out, constitutes a special case, due to our 2,000 year shared history, much of which has been tragic. Unlike the other traditions, Christianity historically has had as an integral part of its agenda the elimination of Judaism as a separate faith tradition, as the Church sees itself as the "New Israel" and as the true beneficiary of God's promises in the Old Testament.
As a belief system, Messianic "Judaism" isn't really a form of Judaism at all; it is conservative evangelical Christianity. They've taken their theology in its entirety from the Christian fundamentalists; in fact, a number of their "rabbis" have graduated from Southern Baptist seminaries. If they were attempting to build a faith community based upon the beliefs of first-century Jewish followers of Jesus (not an impossible task, given the historical data now available), I could see that as legitimate – but this is not what they are doing (frankly, most of them, in my experience, simply aren't bright enough). They are practicing Christianity with a thin veneer of Jewish liturgy and symbolism. They basically want to be Christians without giving up the bagels.
In any case, none of this is what troubles me. If they want or need to believe that Jesus was the Messiah – fine. I don't even care if they believe that he was God incarnate; as an atheist, I don't give a damn about the issue of avodah zorah. What weighs with me is their adoption of the doctrine of salvific exclusivism. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of them believe that everyone who fails to acknowledge Jesus as messiah will spend eternity in hell (it's in the doctrinal statements of both of their denominational organizations). Eternal damnation in the Christian sense was never a Jewish belief, and is an abomination, in any case – a concept so obscene that it ought to be considered beneath the dignity of a human being to believe it. In my opinion, a Jew who adopts and is comfortable with the belief that millions of his fellow Jews (not to mention billions of his fellow human beings) will be tormented in hell for all of eternity – and that this is somehow in perfect concert with the idea of God as supremely compassionate, merciful and just – has violated the concept of k'lal Yisroel and has separated himself from the Jewish people. It is not we who have excluded them; rather, it is they who have excluded themselves, a situation they seek to modify when it becomes inconvenient.
On this basis, I have absolutely no problem with denying Messianic Jews the benefits associated with membership in the worldwide Jewish community, including but not limited to the Right of Return.
Ok well I've been arguing pretty heavily against Messianic Judaism being actually Judaism. But once you bring out the Nazi argument you lose me. Is it not possible to have one discussion without bringing out the Nazis. I guess Goodwin's Law is alive and well.
Hey, Mr. Ben-Yehuda, if a Nazi said "I am a Jew, and as a Jew I believe the Jewish people must come to an end", would you still honor him and write an article protecting his rights? Cause that is what these so-called "Jews" want to do to us. Wake up!
Messianic Jews have felt the whip of anti-semitism/ persecution since the beginning. Starting with stoning Stephen.
Yes Jews can be anti-Semites.
Is it just me or does anyone else have a problem with people taking words and making them mean other things. I can just see the meeting 20 years ago, one Christian turns to the other and says, "I got it, let's not call ourselves Christians anymore let's call ourselves Jews who happen to think really really really highly of Christ. (maybe we can even get someone Jews who converted to Christianity to join us for street cred) Or better yet, let's call ourselves messianic Jews. That way Jews will debate if we really are Jewish and then we can convince them that believing in a Christ doesn't make you Christian it makes you a Jew who thinks really really really highly of Christ. So highly in fact that Jesus was the son of God. But hey it's ok they can still be Jews right. That way if those non Christian Jews don't like we can call them an anti-semite. Whoopdy doo!
You are not a "Jew" if you believe Shneershon is the Messiah.
Get it?
Perhaps it should be stated that not all "Christians" and or "Messianic Jews" believe in the "divinity" of Yeshua, nor do they worship Yeshua.
Sure the majority of these Trinitiarians believe Jesus was God, especially since Constantine and the Nicean Creed.
The Brit Hadasha, does not teach trinitarianism either.
But the early believers did not believe in this trinitarian doctrine, nor do many of the Messianic believers.
Yeshua was the Son of God, he is the Messiah, and through Him there is redemption to the Father, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
All the early believers in Yeshua were Jews, at least for the first 15 years after the resurrection and even after the Gentiles came in on the scene they all were Torah observant.
They followed Moshe and not the Rabbis/ Pharisees.
So it follows now. We as believers in Yeshua should follow Torah out of love, and not follow the dictates of the false teachings of the Rabbinic halacha.
Messianic Jews have felt the whip of anti-semitism/ persecution since the beginning. Starting with stoning Stephen.
Yes Jews can be anti-Semites.
The criteria set forward by the Rambam concerning the template for
moshiach is substantially fulfilled by the life and deeds of the late
Rebbe.
Say what? Funny I just got back from Israel and I don't remember seeing the 3rd Temple, or King David's descendants reinstated as monarchs. Last time I checked the great Sanhedrin has not met for a while (like a couple thousand years give or take). I can't remember the last time I saw an animal sacrifice on the Temple Mount. The Shemita year also really didn't meet with applause recently in Israel. So far Rabbi Shneerson on the rambam Messiah scale is batting 0 for 5. Now I know that some of you are itching to say, "but wait," the messiah is only there to herald in those things and they can be accomplished after the fact according to Rambam, but the Rambam also says that during the lifetime of the Messiah there will be world peace and Israel will live in peace. So now Rabbi Shneerson, though a respectable accomplished rabbi is batting 0 for 7. Now I know that Rambam said that all these things won't be clear because of Talmudic disagreements but you have got to be pretty good at creative interpretation to believe that Rabbi Shneerson is the Messiah. I have no problem with people who say, potential messiah, but certainly not the Messiah. But my guess is this is not unlike the way the early Christians started, soon the Rebe will have died for our sins etc…
Oy
Sure we can all get along. When the messiah comes, that's part of the gig. :-)
I have to admit, I'm really surprised at the number of people who seem to be Jewish who have no problem calling "Jews for Jesus" or messianic Jews, just another Jewish group. They are clearly not Jews. If you follow some sort of racial understanding Judaism then maybe at best the very few members who can actually say they were "born" into Judaism are apostates and the rest are just Christians who like the flavor of Judaism to enhance their Christianity. I for one am uncomfortable letting the likes of neo-nazis or hitler define who is a Jew but as that is one reason for the Law of Return to be in existence then in times of great distress in which some sort of nazi group is threatening those who have Jewish blood, then fine let them in. But that isn't the case today. I for one am not a racist. Racism does not define my Jewish beliefs. My beliefs define my Jewish beliefs and how I feel about Judaism as a whole. For those who ask, what about the Chabad Jews that believe Shneerson is the messiah? I agree with their assertion. Why have a double standard in that case? It seems to me that they should be considered something outside of Judaism, as well. But let us be clear. Shneerson has not made it into these "Chabadniks'" liturgy as representative of God but in "Messianic Judaism" Jesus has. Shneerson has not been the source of salvation in these "Chabadniks'" theology. However in "Messianic Judaism" Jesus is. These aren't small differences. This is the difference between a form of idolatry and Judaism. People who studied Judaism's take on the Bible understand pretty clearly that Judaism was born as a polemic against such idolatry.
Daniel K–who must aim to be wrong every time he writes something, has us convinced that he is wrong with this comment:
The person who brought up the Shneersonites raises the decisive point.
Whatever the feelings of some individuals here, there isn't the
slightest chance that an adherent of any other
messianic strain of Judaism would be denied equal rights as an Israeli.
So, by the lights of the the principles the Israeli government actually operates on, they owe the Messianic Jews full and equal rights and protection.
To correct young Daniel's poor insight, Jews who believe that the late Rebbe was Moshiach are in every way Jewish and also hold all Jewish law. Messianic Jews are normally not Jews at all by birth and are Christian–further they hold a belief unrelated to the belief of some in Chabad–they believe that a mythical person who did not live in history was the messiah, that this person was killed by the Romans at behest of the Jews. The historical fact is that there was a figure in history who lived about 150 years before the claimed date but he bears little resemblance to the person claimed in the so-called New Testament. The late LubavitcherRebbe lived a documented life and performed miraculous deeds on behalf of the Jewish people. The criteria set forward by the Rambam concerning the template for moshiach is substantially fulfilled by the life and deeds of the late Rebbe. Even if one assumes the Christian story on its face, there messiah cannot qualify on Jewish terms in any way. I do not believe that Schneerson was the messiah but it is a legitimate possibility.
We can disagree but we can NEVER say that a Chabadnik is non-Jewish in the same way as a Christian–this is really wrong headed—-OR–that a messianic Jew is equal to a Chabad Jew since they are both equally mistaken about the messiah.
A born Jew is a Jew–especially one that has mastered and honors all the mitzvot–and someone who makes an incorrect and offensive claim concerning the messiah is very different from someone who has a legitimate although minority opinion.
I was born into a Christian family. In college I got involved with the Messianic Jewish movement. A few years ago I converted to Orthodox Judaism, and am an observant Jew. I say this so you will know where I come from. I have known the gamut of Messianics-from Jews for Jesus to the "Torah observant" variety. There is one thing that they all have in common. Ultimately, they are all trying to get Jews to see Jesus. The truth is, this group is nothing but an evangelistic group who want to create "fulfilled Jews". The most "observant" (and I say this lightly, as they know nothing of Halacha) of them are simply (as it was nicely put to me) "trying to make Jews feel at home" so they will come and hear about Jesus-or Yeshua as his more Jewish friendly name is called. While I truly believe that these people believe that they are keeping a part of their "Jewish identity", it is their belief in Jesus that defines them. If you ask any Messianic Jew what the core of their practice and faith is, the answer is not Torah or Halacha-it is always a faith in Jesus as their savior, and as the fulfillment of (which may or may not mean doing away with) the Torah. No Messianic Jew feels that they are bound by their Jewish covenant. They all feel that it is thru Jesus that they come to Hashem. This makes them Christians. This is important, because their goal is and will always be to share this faith with their 'unfulfilled Jewish brothers'. Can we really be open to this? I'm not a fan of persecution, but we really need to be wary of them and realize they are not these innocent people. To allow them in like a Jew is to be naive about who and what they really are-evangelists of another religion!
If a person is born Jewish, even only a little Jewish, and change their religious beliefs, does their blood change?
My thinking is that if anyone wants to label themselves as Anything, as long as it does not interfear with anyone else's pursuit of happines then we should all learn to co-exist.
All great, strong, powerful, well respected countries celebrate diversity among it's people. Seperation between church(synagogue) and State is a must to survive in a peaceful state.
I belive in one G-D, call him what you like, and I believe that He made us All..and..imiange that he made Us All Different..There is something to that and I take notice to that and consider myself lucky to be born into a country that will allow me to read the Tora, Qu'ran and the Gospels and speak openly about what I believe, and futhermore I like to look for what we have in common, not how we are different.
Everyone deserves freedom to live a happy good life!!!
"Can a reform conversation be recognized in Israel?" opps; meant to write conversion not conversation: Although a reform, conversation is a good start :)
I agree with you dan. i think that the issue is wither or not israel chooses to be a secular government for all her citizens. Roi's intro is well written, but is he correct to say that there is equal place for reform and secular Jews in Israel? Can a reform conversation be recognized in Israel? Can a secular couple marry in Israel? and what about the Arab israeli citizens? Where do they fit in the "Zioinst mosiac"? It is not jut the messianic Jews who need full and equal recognition.
The critical difference, such as it is, between the Schneersonites and the Messianic Jews is who is on the receiving end of the Messiah claim. As it so happens, people who believe that Jesus is/was the messiah already have a handy label – they're called Christians. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, and while Christians can be many wonderful things, they cannot, in fact, be Jews and Christians at the same time. The Chabadniks, on the other hand, do not officially believe that Schneerson was the messiah, which is (at least at face value) a critical difference between Lubavitchers and the Messianics.
That said, there's no excuse for being rotten to the Messianics, or denying them a equal civil rights in Israel. There's also no reason, however, to condescend to their desire to be regarded seriously as Jews.
i was just having dinner w/ a friend who works in intellectual property and we were talking about my "jesus was a kike" design. amusing to see it pilfered here… theft is, after all, the sincerest form of flattery.
Did God speak of a second part to the Torah called the New testament as if Torah was some sort of Harry Potter book that required a sequel?
Yes.
Yermiyah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord [*husband] over them, saith HaShem. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith HaShem, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people; 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith HaShem; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. [text from The 1917 Jewish Publication Society Tanakh]
*from the jewsforjudaism reference "the Jewish response to Missionaries"
Hashem still loves his people "replacement theology" is a LIE. (the church will never replace Israel)
For
instance,
our liberal denominations reject the ancient faith that the Torah was received
by Moses from God, thus reducing much of Judaism to mere folklore.
Even the most liberal movements within Judaism believe that the Bible is a vehicle for the Jewish people to express their understandings of a world with God. The Bible itself has many perspectives on what that relationship between people and God consists of. Even though the most Liberal Jew might not believe that the Bible is God given they do believe that it contains truth. That being said, the most liberal movements believe that the exercise in engaging with Torah (in it's broad or limited sense) serves to engage the Jew with a single God, not three or some blend of Mithraist or pagan understanding of some Zeus like Godling. Even the most liberal of Jews would draw the line at worshiping a person and not God. Even the most liberal of Jews learns that in kindergarten. If you believe the Messiah (or it's Greek word Christ) has come, you automatically become a Christian. Jesus as Messiah = Jesus as Christ. Messianic Jews = Christian Jews = Oxymoron
Oxymoron is another Greek term, I implore you to look it up.
Thanks
"Other Jews argue that messianics have ceased to be Jews because they revere Jesus as God incarnate, or because they worship a triune Deity. From the perspective of Judaism as it has been practiced for three millennia, there is indeed a problem in imagining God as taking a bodily form (see Deuteronomy 4:15) or as comprising distinct persons (Deuteronomy 6:4). But other beliefs constituting no less serious a departure from biblical tradition are smiled upon in our community. For instance, our liberal denominations reject the ancient faith that the Torah was received by Moses from God, thus reducing much of Judaism to mere folklore.
The gravity of this is evident from the teachings of Maimonides. In his encyclopedic "Mishneh Torah," he lists 24 categories of people who may forfeit eternal life. One is a Jew who attributes bodily form to God. One is a Jew who believes in multiple deities. Another is one who denies that even a single word in the Torah comes from God.
To revile messianic Judaism while embracing Jewish movements that deny the revelation of the Torah at Sinai, then, makes little sense. "
From David Klinghoffer
http://www.jewsweek.com/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Article%5El1757&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Opinions
Either Jesus is or isn't the messiah. Both cannot be true.
Either the messiah has come or he hasn't.
Terrific article.
I believe that a separation between religion and state is fundamental for the citizen's rights and an open minded society.
Setting the Facts Straight:
Christianity didn't develop as such until a few hundred years later.
Those who followed Jesus (first disciples etc…) were actually not
called christians at all. They were mishichim, (messianics) which is
derived from Messiah, (Mashiach) bascially messiah followers.
Does it matter if the term Christian did or did not exist at that time? Christian is still the word that defines this group. Please see my comments that you are responding to. Gravity as a word did not exist either but the phenomenon certainly did.
They of
course were all Jewish and Practiced Judaisim.
They were not Jewish, some may have been Judeans and if they were Judeans it means they were part of the sacrificial cult that existed around the Second Temple. As the commentator above stated: normative Judaism as practiced today began to exist after the destruction of the Second Temple, after Jesus lived and after the disciples would have been alive
Christianity as a whole
was not a real religion until Constantanople.
Christianity did not become a state sponsored religion until Constantinople. It was a real religion just not very fixed in practice or ideology. Semantics are important.
Furthermore, most Jews
believe in a Messiah, that there is, was, or will be one.
The normative Jewish tradition believes with perfect faith that the Messiah will come as a person or an age, but Jews do not believe that one has come in the past. If that were true then we would all be living in a perfect state of peace in the land of Israel, last time I checked that hadn't happened.
Does that
mean that suddenly the Messiah will come, and the Jews will believe in
him and it yet will then again make a new religion and Jews won't be
Jews?
It means that everyone will recognize that there is One God and there will no longer be any need for denominations because it will be natural to observe the obvious Law of God. Also all of sudden everyone will agree. This is the messianic idea in Judaism. Obviously for Jews this hasn't happened yet, "two Jews three opinions." After the Messiah this will change to billions upon billions of people with one Truth. Like it says in Zechariah 14:9 which Jews recite in every prayer service:
And Adonai shall be Ruler over all the earth; in that day shall Adonai be One, and God's name one.
Funny I don't see three in there, nope no Trinity, go figure…
Also, as far as Messianic authors go to a previous comment, the
whole new testament is written by messiancs ( Jews who followed Jesus
as the Messiah) and the Bible (old and new testament) have both stood
the test of time.
The later books of the Christian Bible are written and the whole kit and caboodle finally edited by people who wanted to distance themselves from Jesus' Jewish roots and from Judaism as a whole. This was a safe course of action considering at the time the Jews were rebelling in Judea in the Bar Kochba rebellion and the Jews weren't well thought of in the Roman Empire.
So it appears that you are not correct on any accounts. Thanks for playing
The person who brought up the Shneersonites raises the decisive point. Whatever the feelings of some individuals here, there isn't the slightest chance that an adherent of any other messianic strain of Judaism would be denied equal rights as an Israeli. So, by the lights of the the principles the Israeli government actually operates on, they owe the Messianic Jews full and equal rights and protection.
Let’s really set the fact straight:
The issue here is not a proto-christian group or a sub
segment of a proto-Jewish cult. For
example, no one disputes that the people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls were
from the same national origin as today’s members of the Jewish faith but do
they share a faith? I think not. The way Judaism is defined today developed
for the most part in a world where the Second Temple was destroyed and rabbinic
Judaism took hold and developed. The
rest of the world defines a ‘Jew’ as one that is a descendent of those who
struggle with a system set up in the rabbinic period. For example thought historically the word Jew
might have meant Judean, nobody called the Karaites Jews though they were also
Judean. The reason no one called them
Jews, was due to their not adhering to the system of rabbinic authority. These early proto-Christians to which you
speak of, do they exist today? Is there
any evidence at all that they have had a continuous presence through
history? Did these so called Jews for
Jesus live among Christians or did they live among Jews for the last 2000 or so
years? I have found no historical
evidence for their existence. The Jews
for Jesus movement or Messianic Movement is a new idea. If you believe that they owe their existence
to some sort of intellectual idea from the early proto-church then from where
do they get their texts or historical documents to define that belief? If you believe the only evidence you need is
the Christian Bible which you call the New Testament, then do you exclude the
books of the Bible that explicitly distance themselves from the Jews or any
proto-Christian Church? Or do you
exclude the texts that you would say reflect a Christian anti-Jewish
perspective. You can’t have it both ways
my friend. Feel free to consult various
historical books on the subject.
Jews believe in all sorts of things but Judaism does not
believe that a Messiah has come. Those who
do believe this tend to not be of the Jewish faith anymore; they tend to be
Christians or the followers of Shabatai Tzvi or a subset of the followers of
Shneerson, who by the way are being distanced from by mainstream Chabad and certainly
distanced from by the rest of the Jewish world.
Please feel free to provide academic evidence for your claims. Since you are making a claim that is counter
to academic or popular opinion then I believe the onus is on you to prove them
true.
A question is asked above: How are Messianic Jews different from Christians? Answer: In many ways. For example, MJ observe the sabbath, and other Jewish holidays like PAssover, Purim, Chanukah and Yom Kippur. In their synagouge they chant prayers in Hebrew form traditional Jewish liturgy. They say Kaddish for those who have passed on. They keep kashrut. and they bar and bat mitzvah their children. It is for all these reasons – and more – that many Christians do not accept the MJ's as Christians. Does that answer your question?
I understand this sentiment. I actually believe it is AS dangerous or more than the anti-semitism that results in the death of Jews. One is the extermination of the Jewish people and the other is the REPLACEMENT of the Jewish people. As I said before, I'm not Jewish and this is something that I, personally, have to be very careful of. My wife is Jewish and I want my kids to be raised Jewish so how do I do this other than to follow along and create a Jewish household? But how do I follow along without coming across as a PRETEND Jew?
And if enough people like me have the same problem, don't we either end up diminishing what it means to be a Jew or end up stealing that which isn't ours? This is an issue in Messianic Judaism. Smart men and women are wrestling with the question even now. There are some good ideas out there. I think it comes back to what someone said earlier when they said Israel has some things to figure out. Well so does Messianic Judaism.
I think what is important to this discussion is for everyone to know that Messianic Judaism is Jewish enough to care about whether it is inadvertently diminishing Judaism. It is doing something about it. Remember, most of these Messianic Jews think pretty much the way you guys do. A Christian that puts on a talit and does some Jewish stuff isn't Jewish all of the sudden. They are equally concerned with (and actively addressing) the problem of imitation. Look at me. If anyone was going to be an imitator it would be me. I have every opportunity. But I know the damage it would cause and you know who taught me? Messianic Jews.
For all of you defending the theological and historical accuracy of Messianic Judaism, tell me: what is the difference between a Christian and a Messianic Jew, other than personal identity? By the logic expressed here, all it would take for Christians to be Jews would be for them to call themselves Jews and believe they're Jews. Then, by further logic expressed here, they would (or should be) all be eligible for aliyah. Any Christian anywhere who thinks he's a "complete Jew" (as they all probably would if they thought about it historically) and loves Israel and knows their Torah (as many Evangelicals do) should then be free to move to Israel, right? And no one sees the problem with that? By the multi-culture arguments put forth here, that would be great, because they all love Israel (as the Evangelical community here in America does) and all support Israel (ditto). We would have a truly flourishing Israel where no one who claims to be a Jew or wants to be a Jew is left out, which of course sounds beautiful on paper. Only problem, of course, would be that Israel would no longer actually be a Jewish state (regardless if the entire population now calls themselves "completed Jews"), it would be the latest in the long line of Christian states, just one in which most citizens don't eat meat.
the question that arises from Roi's article is an interesting one, and I think many of you have made very good and prudent points. However, I still think that there is one question left and it has to do with having Jesus as your savior and still being Jewish. How does that work? I once had a Hassidic teacher in Israel that told me that Judaism is a very person thing, if one truly sees themselves as Jewish and "tries" to do things according to what he or she thinks being a "good jew" is then he or she is Jewish. I always had qualms with this idea, but today, I think that there may be some truth to it. Why are they more or less Jewish then any of us, and as a Jew that does not follow all 613 Mitzvot and does not go to pray every day, and does not keep kosher yet still tries to be a good Jew are they less or more Jewish then I am? I would love to hear your thoughts.
So many Jews do not support Israel, forget their Jewish origin and assimilate out there in the wilderness.
And here we have people who are proud to be Jews, whatever would be the way they express it, who are proud to be part of the Zionist dream of building and contributing to Israel as the home for Jewish people, but this country throws them out. Miserable silly country! Can’t you see your true allies?
The Zionist idea states that Jews should have a country to live in. EVERYBODY that believes in this idea and is willing to contribute and even sacrifice for this idea should be highly welcomed by Israel. It should never be the question of whether this is a Jew or what kind of a Jew he or she is. This is a very dangerous question that, as Roi pointed out so well, can cause a lot of harm.
If you are a Zionist and you want to be in and contribute to Israel – the country should be thankful to you and do anything it can to help you do it; regardless of your private beliefs.
Silly country! Wake up!!
Setting the Facts Straight:
Christianity didn't develop as such until a few hundred years later. Those who followed Jesus (first disciples etc…) were actually not called christians at all. They were mishichim, (messianics) which is derived from Messiah, (Mashiach) bascially messiah followers. They of course were all Jewish and Practiced Judaisim. Christianity as a whole was not a real religion until Constantanople. Furthermore, most Jews believe in a Messiah, that there is, was, or will be one. Does that mean that suddenly the Messiah will come, and the Jews will believe in him and it yet will then again make a new religion and Jews won't be Jews?
Also, as far as Messianic authors go to a previous comment, the whole new testament is written by messiancs ( Jews who followed Jesus as the Messiah) and the Bible (old and new testament) have both stood the test of time.
Maybe you'd prefer a different measure of Jewishness. Like. . . not Jesus. But isn't that a little shallow?
Yes that would be shallow but if you are 'for Jesus' as the messiah this would make you a Christian. One need only read what the early church fathers had to say about that or crack a Talmud to see that this is definitive.
Would those who believed Shneerson was the Messiah, "anointed one", be Christians?
Yes actually I think so… maybe Shneersons.
I also don't believe it is Israel's place to discriminate this way but I do believe that Christians who pretend to be or pretend to still be Jewish is a deliberate Trojan horse. Just because the members of the group really really really believe that their core beliefs should not be a reflection on whether they should be considered Christian or Jewish does not mean that thoughtful people should not call into question their assertion. You might call that prejudice but I believe it is the act of categorization which is necessary for any person to understand their world. We can say how wonderful trees are and that there is no difference between all trees in the world but a pine tree is still a pine tree and an oak tree is still an oak tree. They are the same and they are different and this is good. Differences are good, differences are necessary for us to understand ourselves and others. Let's not pretend that the whole world is Jewish when they are clearly not and lets not pretend that the word Christian no longer mean those that believe Christ was Christ in whatever form that might believe Christ to be. If one does not believe that Christ was Christ then that person would probably not be a Christian and then they would have to think about what they would want to be instead.
Maybe you'd prefer a different measure of Jewishness. Like. . . not Jesus. But isn't that a little shallow?
I agreed on the Greek origins of "Christ".
Messianic comes from Messiah which is English for the Hebrew word Mashiach which means "anointed one". So they believe Jesus was the anointed one. Would those who believed Shneerson was the Messiah, "anointed one", be Christians? It seems the selection of Messianic Jews to be negatively labeled and ostracized is unwarranted and boils down to historical prejudice (though completely understandable still not acceptable).
It seems to me that much of the loathing felt for Messianic Jews has to do with the fact they've chosen to follow a prophet who belongs to history's oppressor – the Christians. As Ben-Yehuda stated, nobody gets too stirred up about atheist or Buddhist Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, has belonged to the Nazis, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the WASPs. Jews still make this mental connection.
It's important to understand that the oppression committed in the name of Jesus was a contamination. Modern Christians, and Messianic Jews too, are no longer about oppression. I say let them be. They're harmless.
And they're still Jews.
I'm not Jewish. My parents aren't Jewish. My brother is not Jewish. I'm not Jewish. Yet…
My parents began attending a Messianic Jewish Synagogue shortly before I was born. All my life I've been around these Messianic Jews. This winter I even married a Messianic Jew. She was also raised in Messianic Judaism and made Aliyah at 16 years old. She left her comfortable upper-middle class American life at 18 and served in the Israeli Army. She learned Hebrew when she arrived in Israel and served as a lonely soldier. She continued to live in Israel until the summer of last year so that we could marry in America.
We are moving back to Israel on September 18th where we will get jobs, raise children, serve in the reserves, and remain until we die. I say this because this is the context from which I say the rest of my comments. This me who gives you my input on this young (and yet old) movement called Messianic Judaism.
Not being Jewish, I have had the opportunity to see Jews from an outside perspective. Being part of a Messianic Jewish community all my life, I've had teh opportunity to see Jews from a very close outside perspective.
Messianic Jews come in all shapes and sizes. Some want nothing more than to leave their Jewishness at the door of Christianity. After all… being Jewish is hard. Some will give you a look to kill you for saying the C (Christian) word in their presence. But the vast majority (maybe 95%) that I've run into fall somewhere in between. They operate similar to Reform Jews in that they drive on Saturdays, they know most of the traditional liturgy but prefer something upbeat and new as well, they strongly identify as Jews, and they love Israel (especially if they've never visited — Romanticized Israel). Most of the Messianic Jewish synagogues I've been to (about 30) have a Torah that they read from weekly. The men wear Kipot and Talitot. They don't eat pork or shellfish (though many do mix meat and dairy — the distinction they see is between what's in the Bible and what the Sages said).
I've also been to synagogues in US and Israel and not seen a tremendous difference. The differences I saw would not be apparent to a complete outsider… that's for sure. On Yom Kippur two years ago, I was in Jerusalem and went from a Messianic Jewish service to the service at the Great Synagogue. They both read from siddurim and both looked the same (except the Messianic Jewish synagogue was about 50 people and the Great Synagogue was 500).
I'd say that if Hitler was around, he probably would have tried to kill both groups. I'd say if a suicide bomber was around, he probably would have tried to kill both groups. Certainly the Messianic Jewish Israeli that spoke this past Sunday in and Israel discussion group we have in our Messianic Jewish synagogue didn't notice any difference. He was a commander of a special unit in Givati and he didn't mention that the Arabs in Gaza didn't shoot at him but singled out the REAL JEWS in his unit.
It sounds silly when I write this but to deny these Jews Israeli citizenship (which the Interior Ministry tried to do but the Supreme Court denied) is really happening. Ultimately this is up to you all to decide. I'm not Jewish. I can't decide. But if you all won't help these poor Jews when the trouble comes (and it's already begun), at least there are those like me who will. But was that enough for Anne Frank?
I feel moved to try to clear up a few things. First: the word Christian is derived from the word Christ. Christ means "anointed one" in Greek. A person who believes that Jesus is the "messiah" or "anointed one" is a Christian. So Jews for Jesus by default is a Christian movement. It doesn't matter if they were born Jews or converted Jews or whatever. If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah then you are by default a "CHRIST-IAN." I mean do people really think we are so stupid that we don't understand etymology, did we just forget that this is what Christian means? Second: it is not religiously defining that people paint swastikas on Christian churches it doesn't make the people that worship there Jews. Hitler or anti-semitism does not define Jewish or Israeli identity nor should it. If that were true every person who has mistakingly been called a Jew or experienced anti-Jewish talk is a Jew. No doubt for some this does define their identity but I hardly think that this is a measure of Jewishness.
I agree with you completely. I've always been troubled by this policy. I studied a Messianic Jewish community for my sociology of religion class, and their love and dedication to Israel is unbelieviable. There was not one person that I interviewed who did not seem him or herself as Jew, and the support for Israel is total. These people love to celebrate the Sabbath, the love Jewish history, they study Hebrew, and are knoweledgable of the Torah, it makes absolutely no sense to me why Israel rejects them. I know many Israelis who do not believe in God, so why is it suddenly such a problem for these people to have a varied belief in God or his son? A person's personal belief should make no difference, because Israel protects Jews who are Jewish in culture and self-identity not strict belief (despite the fact that Messianic Jews have a much stricter adherence to Jewish laws and practices than most Israelis I meet.)
Really interesting article. Makes me see the "Jews for Jesus" phenomenon in a new light. I guess that if we Jews take historic pride in claiming Jesus as one of our own, it is hypocritical of us to reject Jews who believe in him as a Jewish massiah. While I do not subsribe to such thinking, I am willing to respect those who do. Thanks for the article, roi.
The question was posted: "If Messianic Jews are targets of antisemitism like what occurred in Nazi Germany (in which they are targeted as Jews regardless of their conversion to Christianity) they probably should be allowed to immigrate, I would hope, under a special provision. But are they actually targets of such acts now?"
The answer is YES! I belong to a Fully Jewish Synagogue which is Messianic. (USA) A few months back we had a NAZI SWASTIKA spray painted onto the street side outside wall. Jews don't consider us Jews, and the Christians look sideways at us, but Anti-Semitics don't discriminate. To them a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.
It would be good for each and every person to first become unbiasly educated in what the Torah truly teaches and the prophecys of the Tenach before making judgemental statements about people's faith walks. The issue is in what a person believes and then how that person carries out and practices that belief. Opinions are like a…….s everyone has one. The only way to know the truth… that is HaShem's truth… is to study and learn what was truly written in Torah and stop adding what seems to feel good and subtracting what is inconvenient and then to seek a true heart to heart communication with the Holy One of Israel… To practice and live the VÁhavtah… Devarim 6:5 and let HaShem be the righteous judge.
Believing in Messiah… whether he be either Shneerson or Yeshua does not change the blood in his/her veins. It does not change one's genes… If one is born a Jew… then they are a Jew… just as a leopard can not change its spots! As previously commented upon… Hitler doesn't care which sect a Jew follows or even if they are athiest or Buddist.
First of all, the article is well written and does lay a finger on the issue.
Secondly, there have been many who have been proclaimed messiah. For example: Simon (ca. 4 BC), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled; Athronges (ca. 3 BC); Judas of Galilee (?), son of Hezekiah/Ezekias, a member of the Zealots faction who led a bloody revolt against a Roman census in AD 6. (JA18); Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC – AD 30-?), a wandering prophet and teacher who was crucified by the Romans; Theudas (? – 46), who attempted a short-lived revolt against the Romans before being slain. (JA20.5.1); Menahem ben Judah (?), allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader; Vespasian, c.70, according to Josephus[3] ; Simon bar Kokhba (?- ca. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War; Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440-470, convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster; Ishak ben Ya'kub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani (684-705), who led a revolt in Persia against the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan; Yudghan (?), a disciple of Abu 'Isa who continued the faith after Isa was slain; and more.
Many Sages were involved here too. If determining who messiah is or will be is clear cut and simple, why all the confusion?
The bottom line is that many attrocities were visited upon Israel in the name of Jesus. This is difficult to overlook. However, as we can see from the article, some of those Jews who believe in Jesus do hold on to their identity and practice. Those who do should not be turned away from klal Israel.
It seems to me that anyone, and I mean anyone, who sincerely and freely chooses to identify as a Jew, to put his/her lot with one of history most persecuted minorities, deserves our respect and recognition. These people are reviving an historic stream of Judaism. Let’s honor,celebrate, and welcome them into the great tent of Judaism. As Roi hints at the end of his article,you cannot reject them without excluding many other Jews whose identity falls outside the norm.
"The term "Jewish Christian" is commonly used in the scholarly literature to denote early believers in Jesus who were not from a Gentile background but of Jewish stock (all of Jesus' twelve disciples, therefore, as well as Paul, were "Jewish Christians"). The term frequently has an additional nuance; it indicates those followers of Jesus who remained faithful to the Jewish law, the Torah; from this standpoint Jesus' brother James was a Jewish Christian but Paul was not. This latter group of Torah-observant Christians is sometimes described as consisting of "Christian Jews," rather than "Jewish Christians," in order to emphasize that their Jewishness remained as important or more important to them than their belief in Jesus' messiahship.
As to the question of whether or not "Jewish Christian" is a justifiable term for contemporary Christians of Jewish background, such as myself — this is more complicated, partly because being Jewish is both a matter of ancestry and a matter of religious belief and practice. The question of whether Christians of Jewish background are Jewish is a subset of the larger and disputed "Who is a Jew" question, which is a matter of controversy both within and between the three main branches of Judaism and within the secular state of Israel. From the point of view of (orthodox) Jewish religious law, Jews who convert to Christianity remain Jews, albeit apostate ones. However, in the case of Brother Daniel, a Jewish convert and a Carmelite monk who applied for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, the Israeli Supreme Court refused to accept this definition because the past centuries of persecution of Jews by Christians meant that in most Jews' minds "Jew" and "Christian" had become opposites.
My own religious practice is not Jewish; I do not, for example, try to keep the kosher laws or to observe the Sabbath. (Neither, however, do most Jews worldwide.) My religious identity for the past 30 years or so has been Christian. Culturally, however, my identity has strong Jewish elements. I read and speak Hebrew, identify with, while remaining critical of many aspects of, the state of Israel, and feel comfortable going to synagogue. I think of myself, therefore, as, in several important senses, Jewish, and I think that many of those who know me, both Jews and Christians, would agree. But I expect that many, probably most, Jews would disagree, especially when confronted with the abstract issue rather than with me as a person. For them, I am not a Jew; for myself, I am. Since "Jew" is not a term with a sharp definition but a social construction, it seems to me that there is room in the world for both views."
Joel Marcus is an author and Professor of New Testament and Christian Origins at Duke Divinity School.
What do Jesus, the apostles, the authors of the new Testament, the first pope, the first five Christian patriarchs of Jerusalem and the oldest surviving Christian sect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya) have in common?
Mika:
I'm not sure Jewish history is completed, so the lesson isn't fully developed. Right now, as far a I can conclude, I have no idea what's happening other than we still have to figure something out.
No one said the Messianics can't live in Israel, they just made an argument, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court, that they still possess citizenship. The court didn't agree, but it wasn't unreasonable to say that they were of another religion.
This brings us to their treatment by the Haredi–and like I said, there are a few things we still have to figure out.
But if the Messianics were truly Jewish, all 15,000, there wouldn't be 120 congregations. There would be 1650 congregations, all scrambling for a minyan. That's Jewish.
wait, is that guy in the top picture robin williams?
it is that there has never been one correct way to be Jewish. EVER. The story of the Jewish religion is a story of a wide array of beliefs, which continued evolving through the centuries, always in contact and in dialogue with other peoples and religions.
The Messianic Jews I've met know Hebrew and Halakhah better than most American Jews. and they know their scripture better than Israelis.
How does allowing Messianic Jews to have a life free of persecution in Israel endanger other Jews (or that ever unsettling, shifting, and fluid category of Judaism)? It does not.
It is just that the some people in the Israeli government feel that their identity (or political support) is so fragile, they cannot tolerate difference and diversity.
good article, Roi. proofreaders at Jewcy could make it better.
Messianics say Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Interesting how this VERY new movement seems to know more than ALL of our sages put together. If their Jesus was messiah then why didn't the Rambam, Arizal, Ramban, or any other of the thousands of geniuses who have graced our history tell us so? Does Mr. Ben-Yehuda know more than they? If I was asked about who my favorite 16th-century Rabbinic writer was I could choose from hundreds; where are the great messianic writers? There are none. Plain and simple. The Jewish sect that thought of Jesus as a prophet is long gone – centuries ago. What of the Jews that thought of him as moshiach? They were few and never formed a cohesive community. Christianity became the gentile religion is was destined to be and (gratefully) took with it its pagan trinity. Botom line: there is NO continuous Jewish/Christian faith that has endured throughout the ages. All our greatest minds KNEW how far removed from Judaism the belief in Jesus was. Did God speak of a second part to the Torah called the New testament as if Torah was some sort of Harry Potter book that required a sequel? Want reasons Jesus wasn't moshiach? Go to jewsforjudaism.com and download their "response to Missionaries" for free.
Furthermore, it is my sincere belief that in many ways, messianics are worse than their openly antisemitic counterparts. One can at least distinguish a skinhead from the way he dresses and his hateful tattoos but a messianic dresses, speaks, and at first even seems to behave as a Jew. They target Jews and ONLY Jews. They want to achieve what others could not: take away who we are. They will not rest until every last one of us is like them. Wake up! There is nothing wrong with us! We carry a beautiful knowledge that has been passed down (at great cost) through an unbroken line. Our sages wrote so much on why those who follow this gentile messiah are no longer Jewish. That doesn't seem to matter to them. They will continue to proclaim their love of a Jewish state while carrying within them the seeds for its demise. They are utterly incapable of understanding that Judaism and Christianity are completely different on fundamental levels. Let the messianics join Ann Coulter in her quest to "make us completed Jews". I for one will do as my ancestors did: resist and stay true to our faith.
1. Messianic Judaism is another religion?
Perhaps so. Yet tens of thousands of Israelis today practice Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism, have no connection at all to Judaism nor do they believe in the Jewish religion. Should they be denied citizenship as well? And after them, who else? Jews who are Atheists? If the Jewish Haredi Aryan fundamentalists carry out their extremist policies, there will be no citizens left in Israel who are will fit their absolutist categories but the ultra-Orthodox and the Arab citizens.
2. Following the Legacy of Nazism
Those who support the current ideology of discrimination against Messianic Jews are following the Nazi legacy. The Brother Daniel and Edith Stein are two examples of Jewish converts to Catholicism who were prosecuted by the Nazis. Yet if the Jewish state existed in the 1940s, it would turn its back on them.
3. Messianic Judaism uses deceitful messages and is a form of Fundamentalist American Protestantism
However, they are still better than the Haredim since the latter do not serve in the army altogether, nor do they see it as their ideal to contribute to the society they live in while Messianic Jews are idealistic and committed citizens and even overly-committed at times.
You are not a Jew if you believe in Jesus.
Get it?
The basic tenet of Judaims is iconoclasm; acccepting Yeshua as a Mesiah keeps you out of Judaism. I'm sorry for them, but Messianic Judaism started as yet another Christian way of targeting Jews for conversion.
I know that I sound intolerant and dogmatic, but I can't help it: there has been zillions of movements inside Judaism, but iconoclasm has always been the limit.
I think the problem is that Messianic Judaism is simply not Judaism; it's another religion, essentially a peculiar form of Christianity. They may claim to be Jews, but they are Christians by definition; namely, they believe in the divinity of Jesus and worship him accordingly (and they study the "New Testament", the Christian Bible). In addition, Christianity is a proselytizing religion (regardless of whether or not individuals engage in proselytization is irrelevant), and the potential of proselytizing from "within", so to speak, is naturally seen as threatening by the gov't of Israel, for obvious reasons.
Your point about the Law of Return and its applicability is a good one. I guess the question would then be whether what they are experiencing is
indeed 'antisemitism' and not some other, perhaps related, form of prejudice. If Messianic Jews are targets of antisemitism like what occurred in Nazi Germany (in which they are targeted as Jews regardless of their conversion to Christianity) they probably should be allowed to immigrate, I would hope, under a special provision. But are they actually targets of such acts now? Regardless, discrimination against Messianics that are in Israel is deplorable, I agree there.
Wanna post your own comments? Gotta log in first!