What North American Jews Don't Get about Israel

Spot-on commentary!

 "Here is one example that keeps popping in the book: your repeated puzzlement with the fact that Israelis constantly improvise."

When I did the IDF medic's course way back in early 1991, written (painted actually) in very big letters on the wall of our classroom was "A good medic improvises."  I was discharged in 2005 but I still quote that to myself all the time (our kids reply, "But Abba, you're out of the army!").

 I made aliyah 21+ years ago.  More than anything else, it was doing miluim for 14 years that helped me understand, more than anything, what makes my fellow Israelis tick.

Nicely written!

 Oxartes 

"But leave the Wise to wrangle,
and with me The Quarrel of the Universe let be:     
And, in some corner of the Hubbub coucht,     
Make Game of that which makes as much of Thee."
[Omar Khayyam, "The Rubaiyat

I compare 1942 to 1967.  In both cases the enemies of the Jewish people amassed advanced technology for the purpose of genocide.  In both cases the world stepped away or turned their backs.  Even the UN left when Nasser requested they leave for about three weeks, which is all the time he thought he would need.

We have virtually the same circumstances, yet one variable was different--the existence of Israel, and as we know, the results were drastically different.  

I haven't read Gregory Levey's book, so I can't attest to the accuracy of his observations, but true to his Ha'aretz form, Shmuel Rosner's open letter exhibits the very blend of arrogance and condescension that I imagine drove Gregory away.

Mr. Rosner's argument can be summarized with a single sentence: you weren't born in Israel, therefore your observations are distorted, colored by your failure to assimilate. Well, I was born in Israel. I grew up there, I went to school there, army - university - reserve duty. I fell in love and got married there. I do get you, Rosner. Just like I get Naftali above and my good childhood friend who keeps sending me these apocalyptic emails, the latest one decrying how the world is about to forget the Holocaust unless we start a chain email.

The problem may be that you do not get me. You fail to see that Israel's failings are real and alarming - not some quaint cultural quirks lost in translation. Gregory's observations may not stem from his lack of vision, but rather from lack of a blindspot.

Rudeness? "I prefer to think about it as directness". Lack of professionalism? Brilliant improvisation. Going to an official meeting unprepared? Think of it as a friendly reminder of how inconsequential you are. Were you a real Israeli manly man your spidey sense would tell you what to do. But fret not, the ones who go to the meetings that are "really important" and have meaning know what to say. You're just a dedicated, strange American taking his job with such seriousness. Ha ha, the joke is on you.

You may not agree with my opinions, Mr. Rosner, but there's a reason why my kids won't grow up in Israel. There's a reason why music and books and a language that are at the core of my being will not be as integral part of their lives the way they are of mine. And it's not that I don't get you. It has a lot more to do with the fact that you don't get what there is to get.

Since I usually delete those chain emails. However, if you want to talk about blindspots, then explain to me how harmless Iran's nuclear project is, or how benign the goals of Hezbollah or Hamas or Fatah or Syria or the Saudis or any of those groups' are.

Of course Israel has problems, and maybe Israel has huge problems, which is one reason that I don't think those groups are so puppy sweet and soft. I think it is possible that they can achieve their objectives. I don't think the world is about to forget the Holocaust, I think the world has forgotten--one reason is because we Jews haven't yet come to grips with it. How can you work to prevent what you yourself don't understand. So, we send chain emails. Oh yeah, we get it.

Here's what I do not get about your post. Are you saying that Israel has problems that need to be addressed, or are you saying that Israel needs to be destroyed? You weren't very clear about that. Although your notion that what is at the core of your being is so detestable to you that you don't wish to pass it to your children, that came across very clearly--and I'll admit, I don't get that either.

You exhibit the same arrogance that you accuse Rosner of exhibiting. I'm afraid y'all exhibit a rather myopic  view of what Israel really is. Problems? Yeah we got 'em. Arrogance? Yup. But Israel, like any other country, is not some kind of monolithic entity populated exclusively by macho men and foaming at the mouth reactionaries. We're a complex but sublime combination of people, a living laboratory engaged in one of the most unique national experiments in the history of mankind. For real. So rec, you're free to haul your ass anywhere you like. Raise your children however and wherever you see fit. Good luck with that. I've spent enough time in the diaspora, I know what that's all about. I choose Israel. I don't expect praise and I don't think I am smarter or better than anyone. But somehow your words are just not reflective of my experience. Nothing would make me happier than to see my children grow up in this remarkable country.

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I blog while I jog at Jewlicious.com

jewlicious, I envy you. I really do. It's been ages since I felt
anything resembling the sense of pride and contentment you have with
the country. I haven't seen much of it in my friends and family either
but your mileage may vary. I'm not sure I see the arrogance or the
pronouncement of a monolithic society. My comment related directly to
the article at hand. I used a bit of hyperbole based on Rosner's own
arguments (such as they are) to illustrate a point. I haven't really
used many of my own words. I do not judge you, or anyone who made
choices that are different than mine. Good luck to you too in the
living laboratory. I hope that most unique national experiment in the history of mankind turns out
well for you and your kids.

My results are in. I've evaluated the data and
came to my conclusions. If you're interested I can specify more of the
reasons why I made my decision but chances are it'll just devlove into
name calling as these things often do. That wasn't the point of my
comment. My point was that Shmuel Rosner's attitude is symptomatic of a
larger issue and that larger issue is more than the misapprehension of
the true value of "Dugri" talk.

Rec, I am an Israeli who is returning to live in Israel in October.  I am very much interested in reading about why you decided to leave the country.   

OK so I may have been a bit harsh, but I doubt I'll call you names in the course of this conversation. I have no problem with you outlining why you decided to leave the country. I don't begrudge you that right. Some of the finest people I know have left the country. Some of the most pathetic people too. Similarly, I've seen some pretty sad cases wash upon these shores, I've met some very not nice people who live here but I have also had the privilege of being in the company of some mighty impressive olim and Israelis. Of course there's good and bad everywhere. Feel free to share and I'll try very hard not to be a dick. I promise.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

Jewlicious, my comment wasn't aimed at you. Your response was far too reasoned and courteous for me to expect a real drag down fist fight with you. It's just that I've been around the block a time or two and seldom have I seen a political argument that doesn't go there (given enough readership). One can only hope that this thread will remain obscure.

I never formally enumerated the resaons for my decision so I may be rambling and may forget a point or two. I have a bunch of stuff to say so it may span several comments. Keep in mind that there are some gross generalizations here, but I'm specifying my reasons, so they're colored by my perceptions. They pertain more to the Zeitgeist -- as I sense it from consumption of Israeli papers and radio and from general observation while growing up and living there -- then they do to individuals which I'm sure are as varied and diverse as your average group of six million individuals. So here it goes:

The first reason for me is this volatile mix of militarism and victimhood that is so infused into the Israeli soul. Both of these symptoms can be found in places around the world, but I find the combination toxic and possibly unique. While this is not an immediate reason that people usually cite as an accute problem, in terms of raising kids I think it is major. It is so prevalent in the culture most people don't even notice it. Maybe being away for a while brought it into sharper contrast for me.

We're dealing here with a regional superpower. Its GDP dwarves the combined GDP of its impoverished neighbors, its nuclear enabled army several orders of magnitude more advanced than its purported enemies. Half the people of its the arch-enemy are malnourished. And, to top it all, it is fully backed, militarily and financially, by the world's sole superpower to an extent that not even a symbolic denouncing resolution can get through the UN without a veto (I may be off on my UN terminology here).

Yet despite all that there's this prevailing ghetto mentality. This palpable feeling that we're living on the knife's edge, on the brink of total annihilation. I'm not even going to go into the central role the Holocaust plays in the lives of Israelis as it relates to the present. Our enemies are forever scheming our destruction for no other reason than our religion. And the world is out to get us because, well, they're just conditioned that way. Nothing we do or did has any significant bearing on it and there's nothing we can do to stop it - it's part of this perpetual continuum of irrational Jewish hate that runs through the generations. This, of course, is a self fulfilling prophecy since the more we're attacked the more we feel justified in retaliating, which in turn results in more attacks which prove once again that we are indeed alone in the world.

And on top of that there's the flip side of the victimhood - the military might. We're not some Tibetan monks, suffering under the boot of China. We're a victim with weapons and we know how to use them. We're always an incursion away from fixing the Qassam problem. Always a surgical strike away from decapitating "the head of the snake". These actions have consequences (and a fairly poor track record I might add), but no matter what it is that our actions cause we always end up being the ones being wronged. And this militarism finds its way into every aspect of Israeli society.

People may disagree with my characterization here and I'm sure most people do. But in my opinion there's this huge disconnect between what I view as the reality of the situation and the manifestation of it in the Israeli psyche. While this may sound like heady analytical stuff I think it's poisonous and I think such a gap has deep psychological ramifications. We as adults can cope with it in any number of ways, but I think its effects on children are much more insidious, and while to some extent this disconnect has always existed I think it is more pronounced now as the gap between reality and perception deepens.

So this is just one reason and there are several other big ones. I don't think this one gets mentioned a lot, so I thought I'd bring it up. I doubt if I'll specify the others, unless people are genuinely interested and I fully understand if people aren't. At the very least it let me vent some which is always a good thing.

You are trying to write quietly and reasonably--does that translate into a flexibility in your beliefs? In other words, if your beliefs are based on, say, four propositions, if those are disproved, will your beliefs change?

That's really about it. If your beliefs are indeed flexible, then there is room to talk. If your beliefs are carved in granite, then your reasonable tone might be a bit of a facade.

This thread is one of the best I've read in a while. It also reminds me of this post about shattered idealism.

"Half the people of its the arch-enemy are malnourished."

I don't think I would consider the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (the areas you're discussing based on the links behind your text) Israel's "arch enemies" or elevate them to the status of Israel's greatest threat. Militaristically, the surrounding Muslim nations possess much greater power.

As a past participant in viewing Israelis as "....caricatures,
sometimes funny, often
pathetic, at times annoying. ....the sum of ridiculous meetings with
the
taxi driver, the flamboyant spokesperson, the apathetic tow track
technician." I argue that Jewish Institutions such as the Federation,
Birthright, BBYO and other such youth groups and a slew of many other
US Jewish organizations foster and encourage Jewish youth and young
adults to put Israel and her people on a pedestal. For example through
out most of my Sunday school and Youth group experience it was pounded
into us to never question Israel, to go there and connect with "our
roots and our people", and to support the state no matter what. I took
this to heart and to mean that to really be Jewish and apart of Jewish
community I had to someday become an Israeli citizen. So at age 19 I
moved there to have the "kibbutz ulpan exprience" and trust that I was
rudely awakened. That's the short version of the story which I leave at
that for now. Ask me if you want to hear more. I end with the words of
a former Hebrew prof. in the states who said to me one day over coffee
something like.."you know I am so sick of Jewish young people from the
states coming over to Israel and expecting it to be like it is here!
They forget that we are a still a country in the Middle East. They
coming over here based on notions and ideas from their Rabbis and don't
take the time to learn anything about our history or our culture.
Israel does not exist so that young American Jews can drink legally,
party all the time, and smoke nargilla on the beaches of Tel Aviv!" I
agree with her and I think there is a huge difference between getting
in touch with your roots and having a full access pass simply because
you are Jewish! What about the many Israelis who don't ID as Jewish?
What about the reality that not everyone in Israel is Ashkenazic? I
think we need to stop romanticizing Israelis and recognize that they
are human beings too. Just my two cents.

IMHO - What basically divides Israeli Jews from those in the Diaspora: Israelis are more concerned about content with often egregiously sloppy form (as noted above again and again), Americans about form with often missing content. I know this is a broad generalization, but I am wondering if anyone else thinks it might fit. Perhaps this is what we Western olim are supposed to be (and have in fact begun) contributing here: the American sense of planning, polish, management, manners, aesthetics etc, to contain the Great Sloppy Deep Israeli Heart. In larger numbers, perhaps we'd have a chance of changing Israel for the better in this regard instead of complaining about it. Look what the Russians did for science and technology. And in the process of finding there's no place like Home, Diaspora Jewry might also locate more heart, more brain, and some courage.

Rec has eloquently stated the reasons why he is leaving the zionist entity, although I must confess it is dangerously close to my parnassah. Jews must ask themselves what they did to provoke the world into violent resistance. For example, Hilter, Stalin and Ahmadinejad are great patriots that have their national interests at heart. What exactly did the Jews to to provoke these great leaders into actions that  are at least superficially against their national interests?

Again. ignoring Atzmon... but this thread is nice, see? People can be critical of Israel without eliciting a violent response from from the Zionists. I think Sara's response was great and when Jewishgq stated "So at age 19 I
moved there to have the "kibbutz ulpan exprience" and trust that I was
rudely awakened. That's the short version of the story which I leave at
that for now. Ask me if you want to hear more..." my response is that, believe me, there's really nothing you can tell me about Israel that I haven't already heard. I don't say that to dispute the validity or veracity of your experience, but Israel is still a project in the making. As Sara E so aptly noted, there is much here that is sloppy, many competing forces that butt heads against each other. I won't denigrate the Jewish identities of those Jews who for whatever reason choose to leave or not stay in Israel. that's a personal decision that I don't begrudge anyone. And while I am saddened whenever someone feels that they do not want to participate in the molding of this great country, I for one will do all that I can to make Israel a vibrant, inspiring, viable and attractive place to live in, visit and be associated with. The most effective place for me to do that is from Israel - and again, I am saddened when intelligent and talented people decide that they want to take themselves out of that process.

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מהצפון  עד הדרום at Jewlicious.com

I mean, I don't think REC is real.  Fake ID.  Fake person.  Not there.  Love reading Atzmon though. 

I hesitate to comment here, because this thread seems more like a family disagreement than many of the Israel-themed posts I've responded to on this site, but here goes:

Rec's tone and overall menschlich demeanor has a peculiar effect on me; it allows me to approach the positive feelings that some people have for Israel. What I mean is that rec's obviously conflicted; he lived in Israel expecting one thing, came away with a different sense of the place, but isn't trashing it or retreating into complete unipolar criticism. One senses his disappointment, and because he neither fiercely slams nor blindly adores the place, one can feel both sides of his ambivalence.

My experience is entirely different. I'm neither Jewish nor a Zionist, I've spent relatively little time in Israel, and my feelings for the place are not tempered by religious, political or cultural attachments. While I know that individual Israelis come in all flavors, my main experience of the place is informed by its political actions alone and so leaves little room for the more sentimental aspects of knowing a nation.

When someone like rec describes his experiences in such a non-defensive and honest fashion, the effect is paradoxical; instead of taking pleasure in having one's critical beliefs being sort of confirmed, one becomes curious about the other side of rec's experience-what are his attachments to Israel like (and there must be some because one feels the sadness in his story). His criticism sparks my curiosity about the (presumably positive) field from which it sprung.

In contrast to rec's sincerity, we have the reliably cranky naftali baiting him about the flexibility of his beliefs, speculating about his authenticity and then, on zero evidence, accusing him of being a fake. This sad guy just can't stand it if anyone is not naftali-express an opinion he doesn't accep tand you're a fraud, a racist, etc ad nauseam. Like Horatio, nothing exists for naf that wasn't dreamt of in his philosophy.

In another comment, Jewlicious remarks that Israelis are not monolithic and occur in the full spectrum of human possibility as though this were a useful or original observation. The fact that individual counterexamples exist doesn't mean it's senseless to talk about national character. No one calls Brazilians rigid and precise nor Germans devil-may-care and living for the moment, and rightly so, despite the existence of obsessional Cariocas and Jimmy Buffet-like Krauts. If rec talks about being put off by Israeli cultural tendencies, this doesn't mean that he denies the full range of dispositions among individual Israelis.  

Rec does a terrific job speaking for himself and I apologize in advance if I overstepped-I don't mean to impute to rec any beliefs he may not endorse.  

It doesn't seem like your remarks are really about rec at all. After all, you could easily have remarked about Atzmon. But no. I just said that rec hasn't really responded to anyone who has asked him anything specifically. You know what I mean? About not responding specifically? The reason one becomes curious, is simply because he hasn't responded. Several people have asked him politely for details. I waited just like everyone else. Where's rec? Not like there aren't any sock puppets and hypocrites on the net.

Of course, then you deftly move from a beginning point where Israelis and Jews are all different to this national character that we all have. Nice trick. You have them all down cold. Seamless almost. And if you can fake sincerity--why you're a master.

Sigh. It's very disheartening to have to face one's shortcomings with regard to those virtues one takes special pride in cultivating. I've always thought of myself as quite the menschenkenner, coming up with reliably accurate takes on the personal qualities of others.

I began my contentious dialogue with naftali thinking the guy was benighted but honorable and reasonably intelligent. I sadly now conclude that he's a feckless, unhinged asshat.

See, I can admit when I was wrong. 

Thanks for admitting the obvious.  Now stop your obsession with the Jews and get a life, loser!

Now Ish, if you can see that all Jews are your personal Rorshach test, you will achieve the menschedict life that you wish for.  Good luck.  Let us now retire from this thread and leave it to the Israelis.

Alas, I am now sad that I will never find out how Jordan lost sovereignty over the west bank. 

I really appreciate everyones candor and contributions to this thread. Sad that as predicted the name calling has begun and elimination of debate has yet again won the day.

Last I checked I was real but hey, who knows. Maybe I am a sock puppet in somebody else's puppet theater dream.

Naftali, clearly you feel I left questions unanswered. I thought they were rhetorical questions, being as how you already unequivocally surmised from my writing that I detest that which is at the core of my being. Still, I'll try to find some answers in the empty hollow that is my soul:

Q: "Are you saying that Israel has problems that need to be addressed, or are you saying that Israel needs to be destroyed? You weren't very clear about that"

A: I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough for you. I guess between these two options I would have to go with the former. I may have a sizeable ego, but I didn't realize that removing myself from Israeli society would cause the destruction of the state. Though in fairness, I can see how one would come to that conclusion.

Q: "You are trying to write quietly and reasonably--does that translate
into a flexibility in your beliefs? In other words, if your beliefs are
based on, say, four propositions, if those are disproved, will your beliefs change?"

A: My beliefs, by definition, are not rational. But if you're asking whether my opinions are flexible, I'd like to think they are. Not carved in granite or anything. If you think you can disprove someone else's political opinion in a comment section (let alone four) we may have a long night ahead of us. Unfortunately I wasn't overly impressed with the 1942 - 1967 analogy, so we still have four propositions to go but by all means, I'm open to being persuaded.

And a bonus question, from our listener Atzmon:

Q: "Hilter, Stalin and Ahmadinejad are great patriots that have their
national interests at heart. What exactly did the Jews to to provoke
these great leaders into actions that are at least superficially
against their national interests?"

A: Well, Atzmon, far be it for me to mess with your parnassah. After all, you are an endowed professor at an English university and clearly you cornered the market on the highly coveted anti-semitic Israeli self loathing segment. But I can't leave the question unaddressed, so I'll answer with my own question . Look at your question and see if you can find the correct answer:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

Did you guess which thing is not like the others?
Did you guess real hard with all your might?
If you guessed this thing is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!

I'll just ask some questions, if that's okay.  But you said there's something at the core of your self that you don't wish to pass on to your kids.  To me, I eliminated feelings regarding that core that were warm and fuzzy.  That's all. 

But I'll ask you, what would you need to see, what kind of data would change your feelings?  You don't like Israel, I don't know how you feel about Jews in general, you feel their are problems that need to be addressed, what problems, and how would you like to see them addressed?

And, last question, how old are the kids?