To Date A Jew

Mia, this argument comes up a lot with both people who have converted to Judaism, and those born Jewish.  It's a difficult decision that you can only make for yourself.  Now that you have converted to Judaism, if you marry a gentile, you kids will still be Jewish, according to Jewish law, however this will pose many difficult choices for you when raising them.  I think that if you made the step to convert and agree to follow Jewish laws, then it must be something thats now important to you in life.  This being said, aren't you potentially going to want to carry on Jewish traditions  in the future-celebrate holidays, have Shabbat dinners? Will you have a Jewish wedding-do you want one? I think this would be very hard for you to do if you don't have a supportive partner who is willing to participate.  I personally think dating a Jew makes things easier in terms of practicing Judaism.  If you are interested in dating a Jew, then perhaps you should stop looking in the other direction.  But like I said, this is something you must decide on for yourself, because ultimately it's a choice you will have to live with.

Nebbish boy of  your dreams? Golly, we're not all that bad... present company excluded of course as I am probably the biggest nebbish out there.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

I know him and it's not false modesty.

 Haim Watzman

South Jerusalem

 Thanks Maayan.  Very true I really should just make a decision and stick to it.

As for Jewlicious and his fan club, I really do love nebbishy men.  Maybe that factored in when I decided to convert?  Who knows, but I'm open to introductions if you know any nice single Jewish boys.  

 

Also check me out on the Jew and the Carrot

If you wanna date Jewish, then you gotta be prepared to wait.  Unless you're already well-connected to a productive pipeline of workable semitic dating fodder, then it's gonna take more time to find a Jew with potential than a not-specifically-Jewish person with potential.  Attractive Jews are a subset of attractive people.  They may happen to be more attractive than the rest (due to certain indescribable qualities), but the goyim are gonna snag ya a good portion of the time.  The more time you spend dating not-specifically-Jewish, the less time you'll spend looking for specifically-Jewish dates.  Of couse, it all comes down to how you place your bet - if you think you're more likely to have a shot at a future with a Jew (due to certain indescribable qualities), then why play Russian roulette with a shiksa?  My advice: have patience.  Eventually you'll find your chosen one regardless - better it should be among the chosen people, no?  Why settle for a goy when you can settle for a Jew?

We all know that nebbish isn't the new black... Schlub is the new black. (There's a difference!) For further discussion, please refer to my book, From Schlub to Stud.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/From-Schlub-to-Stud/Max-Gross/e/9781602392632/?itm=1

And, sorry Mia, I refuse to believe that you're having trouble finding a nice Jewish guy. Or, if you are, you are clearly not hanging around with the kinds of busy-body  Jews who get their jollies fixing up their friends. (I.e., every Jew on the planet.)

You might have to start hanging in different Jewish circles... but once you do it will take you all of five minutes before your phone starts ringing off the hook.

I really hope that the reasons for your disheartened condition don't lie in the inability of natural born Jews to accept you.

It might be a cultural thing.  The way that us Yids are brought up can be a difficult thing for someone raised outside the community to connect with.

 The only solution to that is really to spend as much time as possible in the Jew-iest conditions possible, so as to understand the culture, and see if you can connect with it enough to make a serious connection with someone who was brought up in its midst.

At least you are in NYC, the Tel Aviv of America.  The simple nmbers game is on your side.  Its not quite so easy in St. Louis.

 But regardless of the outcome, the questions that this raise are incredibly important for you to resolve as you move forward in your Jewish life.

 Hamon Mazal from St. Louis

www.thestloujew.com

 

 

I have to say, I find it funny how relatively bubbly and optimistic the "nice Jewish boys" who've commented so far have been when weighing in their two cents on the Jewish dating game.  Have patience, one says.  Hang out with "busy-body" Jews-turned-matchmakers, says another.

Yeah, okay.  Do me a favor and wake me up after I'm struck by lightning.

Tell that to the scores of nice Jewish boys like myself that don't live in the Tel-Aviv of America, as yonatan so aptly described NYC.  There's plenty of us out there who would actually love to get fixed up for a change, but for some mysterious reason or another, it just doesn't happen.  After attending a college where the odds were clearly in my favor for meeting that elusive sweet Jewish girl who would hopefully at least come somewhat close to sharing the values, passions, etc. that I do, I still somehow never even ended up with a fling, let alone a steady date.  (Off the top of my head, I'd say part of the puzzle is that I'm just not as lucky as fellas like Max Gross who have been fortunate enough to meet any friends who "get their jollies" playing matchmaker.)

So what should you do?  Well, consider yourself lucky that you do just happen to be in Tel Aviv, USA.  Get out there and mingle a little, and maybe do something out of the ordinary for yourself.  That's what I'm trying to do, anyway, and maybe eventually it'll work.  If all else fails, maybe I or the rest of these chaps will catch you and all of those other nice Jewish girls who clearly go into hibernation the other 364 days of the year at the Ball on X-mas eve (see www.letmypeoplego.com).  Dances have never been my thing, but hell - there'll be a lot of Jews to get my groove on with there, so you do the math.

Meanwhile...anyone care to lend some advice for those of us not living in Tel Aviv, USA?  (JDate for me was a joke, so don't even go there.  Let's have some real advice, eh?)

It frustrates me greatly to see Jewish men getting generalized, but most of the Jewish men I know unfortunately fit this stereotype of the nebbishy schmuck.

Perhaps you need to be introduced to the other side of the Jewish Male perspective? The Secular, ultra-Liberal (not Joe Lieberman "Liberal," real Liberal), vegetarian, humanitarian Jewish boy. I mean, we still love our mothers more than the world itself and will live and die by her word, but we do have room in our hearts (and strong, passionate love) for shanya maidels.  

I whole-heartedly share your frustration over dating non-Jews. The most solid relationship I ever had was with a Catholic girl. I was head over heels in love with her, but ultimately though, the thought of trying to raise Jewish children in a family that celebrates every holiday with a gigantic ham was too much for me.

I have a proposal for you, Ms. Rut. How about I take you out for a drink and change your mind about the Jewish dating scene? Let's show those JDate punks you don't need $40 to meet someone of substance...and we can give Jewcy some publicity (pshh like they need it). 

Mia,

It sounds like you could potentially find a nice Jewish boy from one of the commenters above ;)

Any takers??  

No, I’m not terribly patient RockDocDork.  I have the longest attention span of anyone I know for boring monotonous things like research and data entry, but it doesn’t transfer over to dating (probably a good thing)

As for Max Gross, before signing on to be part of the tribe, I had heard of this I-know-this-nice-Jewish-boy/my-son-is-a-doctor phenomenon.  So I had thought once I got my Jewish certification it must also come with a shadchan (matchmaker), but that was not the case.  However I did once have a very nice conversation with a sweet older woman whose son was a cantor.  She was terrific but her son was creepy and he stalked me for a little while.

And speaking of matchmaking, Yonatan I have a sister in St. Louis – except she’s a Christian missionary who is married with three kids.  So that’s probably not at all helpful.  Sorry.

I do have a little advice for geshSMOC, if you are looking for Jewish ladies go to religious events and social justice events like ‘Inside the Activist’s Studio’ there are at least 2-to-1 women to men at these things.  Last year my then nebbishy boyfriend and I were at Tikvat Yisrael and he got hit on right and left.  We got invited home with some girls for dessert after the dinner until they realized I wasn’t just his wingman.  Or you could be ballsy like Hebrewzzi and ask out a Jewcy contributor in her post.

So, Hebrewzzi, what are you proposing?  How do you think you will change my mind about only forthwith dating Jews?
 

Also check me out on the Jew and the Carrot

Okay, Ms. Rut...here is my proposal:

 

Since you are the Blogging Queen (insert ABBA reference of choice), I'm going to bring your craft into this rendezvous. I propose that we meet at this awesome place on the UWS (will give you the details privately...I don't need any competition). There's good libation, access to delicious food from neighborhood take-out establishments, plenty of merriment (is that not the Jewish trifecta? Is it not written in scripture to eat, drink, and be happy?), and free internet. Also, if you are free on Wednesday, this particular place has a trivia night - which would add another level to the Jewiness of the evening by testing our respective levels of education. 

 

So I guess the encapsulation of this mish-mash of ideas culminates into the following single proposal: We meet at this wonderful little place on Wednesday evening. You, the fiesty Jewess that you are, already have your laptop flipped open blogging away about this schmendrick who's a few minutes late - and then it happens. Hebrewzzi himself - in the flesh - walks through the door to greet you...even divulges his real name. I order us a couple of scotches - because that's what writers drink. I pluralized writer because we will be live blogging our date for the fine readers of Jewcy. Then, once we realize that we are pretty evenly matched in our trivia skills, we will reach for the stack of delivery menus at the bar and carefully pick out our inaugural meal. Then, once you realize that I'm not the stereotypical "Jew Schmo," we'll make our plans for the next date and I won't have to worry about a defamatory blog post from you the next day. Sound good?

YES, YOU SHOULD ONLY DATE JEWISH MEN.  Most of the people I have encountered in mixed relationships and marriages fell into these relationships by going on a random date with a non-Jew they didn't initially take seriously and ended up falling for the person. As someone with no Jewish family of their own it is imperative that you create your own Jewish family by marrying a Jew. Marrying Jews means dating Jews. Granted, there are many attractive non-Jews out there who would be hard to resist and make great partners but you must do this. Think of it as an exercise in self-discipline akin to starting to keep kosher.

There is a whole Jewish party industry in New York that you really need to dive into. I am a regular at parties thrown by two organizations that serve a hipper Euro/Israeli Jewish set. You really should be at these parties. Dor Chadash works for me in particular considering my connection to Israel. They may work well for you or not. Try going to minyans outside of Manhattan occasionally. If you want I could totally help you with any of this. I personally would love to have a gal to go to Jewish parties and other Jewish events with.

Aside from parties there are organized Shabbat dinners. This is an even better way to meet young single Jewish men. Eventually you may be invited to private Shabbat dinners at people's apartments. When people invite you to shabbat dinners, you should say yes. In fact, I am having a Shabbat dinner in a couple of weeks. You're invited (we already know each other).

Lastly, I also wouldn't even entirely write off the likes of MJE. They are an Orthodox outreach organization but not everyone who goes there is Orthodox. They throw parties AND have Shabbat dinners, as well as classes, etc. Getting Jews married to each other is a big part of why they exist. And of course, there is Hadar which does many of the same things but is Conservative/Egalitarian and less explicitly dating-focused.   

Avenues to meet and date Jewish men are all around you. You just have to take advantage of them.

 

If you think finding Jewish dates is hard...Try finding an atheist!

And no, obviously, I never tried to make finding a Jewish mate a priority, despite my Jewish upbringing. And that's been fine, thanks. 

@CFS

There are plenty of Jewish Athiests out there...you just have to ask around. Elude to it in your JDate profile (or whatever venue you use for meeting people). I make no bones about stating I'm a Secular Jew in my profile. I think most Jews - at least from our generation - are "High Holiday Jews," and mostly because they would feel guilty about not engaging in the rituals with which they were raised. Thankfully, my parents have grown Secular along with me so I've been lucky in not having to face that issue. But trust me, all you have to do is ask. It will serve a dual purpose: You find what you're looking for and you show that you're a good communicator.

Yeah, I was pretty much raised a "High Holiday Jew," and my dad's an atheist. My mom's the religious one...she's agnostic. Pretty typical of Brooklyn Jews born in the 1930s, I guess?

Thanks for the dating advice as well. I'm relatively new to this thang! 

Okay, to be clear Mia Rut is one of those double first name deals (or first then middle name) so if Hebrewzzi (or anyone else) would like to woo me, I'd prefer not to be called Ms. (middle name) 

But as for Hebrewzzi's proposal, I have to say it is kind-of a cute and a little daring of an idea.  He really knowns nothing about me save a few blog posts  (I also blog on the Jew and the Carrot) but plotted out a situation in which one could meet and publically share (i.e. blog) in the experience.  Sounds safe and interesting enough?  If nothing else it makes a great story.

As for Perestroika's invitation to his/her home for shabbat dinner, as much as I often long for those types of shabbat evenings (not having a Jewish family and all) I'm not sure I would accept such an intimate invitation, despite s/he saying we know eachother.  And if s/he and I really know eachother s/he would know my uncomfortable (marry me now!) expereince at MJE (probably great for some people but really wasn't my scene).  But if s/he wants to identify him/herself (offline is okay) I don't see why not.

Hebrewzzi-

Live blogging a first date. Brilliant! I can't wait, and for making such a proposal, you deserve the Ballsiest Jewcer Ever award. Balls on stilts. Really.

One piece of advice-if you're shooting for a trivia showdown to establish your intellectual kashrut, you've got to avoid things like

"Elude to it in your JDate profile ..." 

You mean "allude", of course. Also, "athiest" is a no-no, unless you're describing someone who is even athier than that rather ath guy over there.

But maybe these harmless errors humanize you, and if you adopt my standards you'll risk suggesting an unattractive and prissy anality, no boon to a hopeful swain (happily cosseted in a loving marriage, I enjoy that greatest blessing life has to offer; knowing that the love of my life has no illusions about my numberless faults, prissy anality not the least among them, and-unaccountably, miraculously-still smiles like a schoolgirl when I get home. I am so, so not worthy.)

I can't tell you how refreshing and warming it is to read you putting yourself out there so publicly and guilelessly. Isn't it amazing that you were able in a few short sentences to get a complete stranger interested in how things will go for you? Well done.

My best to you and to Mia Rut, and know that we are all waiting breathlessly to see how this turns out.

No pressure. 

As attested by that acclaimed expert on the fairer sex, Napoleon Dynamite, women love guys with skills - like Ismail, for instance.

What Hebrewzzi needs from Ismail is a Cyrano de Bergerac scenario, aided of course by the wonders of modern technology. Perhaps a bluetooth earpiece small enough to be sufficiently hidden from view might do the trick.

I'm sure it also wouldn't hurt for me, or for anyone else whose dates might include a damsel or two every now and then that retains an interest in literary talents - despite living in this age of the ever-shortening attention span.

And wouldn't the corrected term in question be "athy"?

Hey Isaac-

Nah, believe me, I'm no expert on women-just lucky.

But great catch on "athy", about which you are 1000% correct.

God, how I hate to say that. 

 

As someone who perhaps lucked out by using Jdate before they charged a zillion bucks for everything, and perhaps before it was a little on the mainstream side, I'd say the key to dating Jews is like the key to dating anyone else.  Cast a wide net, have some idea of what you want, but be okay with being surprised.  Don't put your eggs in one basket.

It's funny, while Judaism was important to me younger, it was meeting my now partner that got me even more involved in Jewish life.  Which leads to another key point- think outside the box.  If you're in the same communities all the time, it can be harder to meet new folks you have some freedom to explore- so don't be afraid to look in other communities, neighborhoods, boroughs, etc. to avoid that dating at summer camp feeling.

Lastly, I have a TON of respect for feeling drawn to a religion and making the conscious effort to be a part of that religion.  I also think that makes it harder for me to conceive of you dating someone who's not Jewish.  Kinda like a sweatshop activist having a jdate with someone who swears they need their Gap products, it's not going to last very long. 

 

Check me out here and here.

I don't think the issue is so black and white as to date Jewish or not to date Jewish.  There is the risk of dating someone who isn't Jewish and having conflicts of faith and tradition, but there is the risk of that when dating a Jewish person as well. 

 I am not Jewish but my boyfriend is.  We actually became friends during Shabbat dinners at a mutual friend's house.  We will raise our kids Jewish, and I'm excited to celebrate my first Hannukah this year.  I have no plans to convert at this time - I was raised Catholic but am not religious at all - but it's a possibility once we have children.  However, I will keep my Christmas tree.  I think it's pretty, it smells nice, and it makes me happy.   

Dating someone who is a strict Catholic, Christian, etc may not be the easiest thing, but I would not assume a non-Jewish person would not want to participate in Jewish traditions even if they don't convert.

Best of luck!  No matter what religion you are, it's tough finding someone to share all of those holidays with.

this is quite possibly one of the most difficult question that Jews (and Jews-By-Choice) and people of any religion ask themselves. there is no clear definitive answer, even though many will attest that it's easier to date/marry within our respective faith. but to touch upon what Harperberg said...conflicts can arise even in same-faith relationships. just because both partners are [insert religion here], doesn't necessarily mean they're on the same page theologically and spiritually. if you take a step back and look at from a wider lens, every marriage is a mixed marriage...even same-faith ones. two people can be the same religion, but are two completely different individuals. incompatiblity comes in many forms, and the best way to deal with any type of relationship (whether same-faith or interfaith) is to communicate openly. granted, you'll have to communicate more regularly and openly if you're in an interfaith relationship but doing so can be beneficial: you can either realize that it's not going to work out or you can realize that while your other half may not be of the same religion, they are (hopefully) open-minded enough to experience new holidays and customs even if they don't ultimately convert.

i tried MJE, but it wasn't the right environment for me. in fact, it was their overt message of "getting Jews to marry each other" that made me uncomfortable. yes, Jews should marry each other but they should want to do it on their own accord and not be pushed into it by an organization that knows nothing about them other than their single status and Jewishness. i tried JRetroMatch as well. while i commend their ability to match me with those who seem geared more towards my affiliation (in other words, the less religious the better), the guys in question had little to nothing in common with me on every other level possible. i tried JDate, but i got fed up with the fees and the judgmental attitudes of some of the guys on there.

in a recent conversation with my spiritual advisor, i asked who he felt was a suitable fit for me in this sense. his answer was surprising considering his Orthodox affiliation (ok, Modern Orthodox). he said either a secular/liberal Jew who wears a lot of black (if Dave Draiman were available, i'd be set) or a non-Jew who shares my mentality and isn't afraid to question and debate spirituality (perhaps someone who has no attachment to organized religion...an Agnostic/Atheist?). obviously, the latter seems taboo (but my advisor knows that i've been in long-term interfaith relationships and thankfully hasn't chewed me out over them because he's aware that i'll have Jewish kids no matter who i wind up with)...but Judaism calls for questioning and debating. so maybe, in some strange way, what he said makes sense. i am of the mindset that G-d has a plan for everyone, and sometimes it's not the plan we have for ourselves.

Dear Mia

I am Jewish, but not too.... I never dated Jewish girls, probably because I was rebelious and shiksas had that mystical allure. I even married an uber-wasp from London, England. She wanted to convert and my rabbi was thrilled. We were going to have a Jewish wedding, and kosher too. But, I could tell she was a little conflicted. I told her not to do this for me, and religion and culture aside, we were of the same flesh. She thought again, and again, and decided not to convert.

In the end, we were married by a friend who is a judge in a garden on a beautiful summer day. My only regret was that there was no shrimp served. We were married for 16 years, and have a beautiful daughter who is smarter than I could ever be.

 Well OK, we are divorced now, but before you say ahah! our split up had nothing to do with religion. It had more to do with inner conflicts, that no supreme Rabbi could ever solve.

So Mia, follow your heart and use your incredible insight demonstrated by your words and you will find him, if he doesn't find you first. If I should ever find another woman who is even half as smart as you, she will be twice the woman I deserve.

Bill