Cousin Moishe's Thoughts On Your Upcoming Interfaith Wedding

Since I'm a friend of Lilit's I read this very long letter badly in need of emendation -- Moishe not only has a few screws loose, he's also garrulous as hell.

But then, as I kept reading his sick logic and obvious insecurities (something tells me he's far from being married himself), it made me think of my brother who is ba'al teshuva and living in a very extreme yeshiva in a fringe settlement in the West Bank. I love my brother like crazy -- he's a sensitive and spiritual person who hasn't been able to find his way in the real world of hard work, dating, socializing, etc -- but something tells me he wouldn't differ too much from Moishe's conclusion that a marriage between a Jew and a goy is null, and almost satanic.

Sigh.

I am entirely opposed to intermarriage for the obvious demographic reasons -- there are only 12 million Jews on the planet, and if we all intermarry we'll lose whatever shred of a civilization we have left. Even worse, as more secular Jews intermarry we'll leave the entire kit-and-kaboodle to the ultra religious nut jobs like Moishe, which is almost as bad as having no Jews at all.

I try as hard as I can to toe the middle path -- the shvil ha-zohav -- of being a proud Jew deeply connected to his tribe, God, civilization and religion -- while also not becoming a fundamentalist fruitcake who compares human beings to animals. We need more of us centrist, identified, modern, Torah loving Jews, and we need to reproduce!  

@Zachary:

"there are only 12 million Jews on the planet, and if we all intermarry we'll lose whatever shred of a civilization we have left."

 Don't you think that the kind of overt racism expressed above is just as much of a threat? It's sickening to me.

As for your comment—why on earth does intermarriage a priori cause Jews to lose our civilization?? I doubt many potential spouses will be excited to join Moishe's kind of Judaism, but if a even some of those convert, and even some of them raise their kids Jewish, there's a possibility of no net loss.

I think intermarriage has a great potential to expand Jewish civilization. What I think people mean by "intermarriage" is that the person already is basically not at all religious.  

I'm a Jewish woman married to a nonreligious non-Jew.  I didn't meet anyone I wanted to marry until I was well into my 30s and we married when I was nearly 35.  Marrying a Jewish man would have been nice and I did work at it but it just never happened for me.  I never met one I wanted to marry. 

My husband and I have two beautiful daughters who, presumably, are Jewish given the "rule" about who's a Jew.  Our marriage has ups and downs like any other but we are - overall - extremely happy now married over 8 years. 

My girls go to Hebrew school once a week at our Conservative shul.  We light the candles most Shabbats.  I teach them about holidays, blessings, prayers.  All in all they know and have experienced much more about Judaism than I did at their age and both of my presents were Jewish.   

My husband is very supportive unlike some actual Jewish men that I know who find the religion and practices off-putting. 

This article turns my stomach.  If all highly religious Jews feel this way, I want no part of them.   What should I have done - not marry in time to have children?  My kids are Jewish any way according to his rules. 

I hope people realize that even from an Orthodox perspective, this guy's words are absolute rubbish.

According to Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, the gadol hador (preeminent rabbinic authority) of prewar Germany, the Torah is the "form" (in the Aristotelian sense) and mundane life and secular knowledge is the "matter".

Haredism/Ultra-Orthodoxy has negated mundane life and secular knowledge, and thereby negated the "matter". As we know, according to Greek philosophy, form without matter and matter without form are both equal to zero, as far as practical reality goes.

So assuming that "Orthodox" means following the Torah, the Haredim cannot claim to be Orthodox, because they have rejected the Torah perspective on the purpose of the Torah. As a friend of mine has quipped, the Haredim do the equivalent of reading the VCR manual and throwing the VCR itself in the garbage; such a person cannot be called an adherent of VCRism. Similarly, anyone who reads the Torah but fails to apply it to real life cannot be called a follower of the Torah.

It's sad to see that Moishe is so confused about what it means to be a Jew and what Judaism is all about. He has it entirely backwards. What he is preaching has nothing to do with Judaism at all, but merely reflects ignorance and a lack of knowledge and understanding of what Judaism is all about. These aren't Jewish ideas he's presenting, but those of a cult that thinks it is Jewish, but isn't.  It is bigotry in every sense of the word, and betrays every precept that Jews throughout the ages have tried to live by.

God is love. And so is Judaism. If there is love in the marriage it is Jewish. By definition. And it says so in the Talmud. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand anything about Judaism, and you certainly don't have the right to call yourself a Jew. You are merely using the term "Jew" to promote intolerance and force your ideas on others.

The Orthodox may think they are the real Jews, but it is the Reform Jews that genuine represent Jewish teachings and faith. Unlike Islam and Christianity, Judaism is open to all thoughts, to all people, to all ways of life. Jews have the right to believe what they want to believe, and to interpret the Torah and the Talmud in the way that it is appropriate for their own life and culture and experiences. They are the "chosen" people, and that means that they are free to "choose." The freedom to choose is the very essence of what it means to be Jewish.

It is so very, very important that the real Jews speak out against and oppose this narrow-minded minority that seek to redefine Judaism to serve their own selfish desires, and save Judaism for the ages. Moishe says that Noah would endanger Judaism. No, it is Moishe and his kind that are endangering it. 

It says in the Talmud that whosoever shall love and marry a virtuous woman is fulfilling all of the commandments of the Torah. 

(First off, this man is crazy and brainwashed. He should just be completely disregarded, this is a response to the argument against intermarriage and not a response to this deranged "Moishe Man.")

Just wanted to point out that a lot of the time when a Jew marries a Non-Jew, they raise their children Jewish, ultimately creating MORE Jews.  i.e.

Jew A + Jew B = Jew C

Jew A + Non-Jew A= Jew C

Jew B + Non-Jew B= Jew D

( One more Jew than  there would be if both Jew A and Jew B  married eachother. ) 

Also, approximately one third of Non-Jews who marry a Jewish person end up converting, thus creating MORE Jews.

 I am not saying to inter-marry  in order to make more Jews, I am saying that intermarriage is not as much of a threat as some people may think.  In fact, not only could it create more Jews but if children are not raised Jewish they will still have a Jewish outer family that they will hopefully love and this will breed tolerance and respect for Judaism in the world today, not anti-semitism. 

What passion & drama!! 

My favorite part might just be "...anti-semintism goes through Mothers Milk."

"....This was said and sent in love.  Moishe"

ROTFLMAO

Publishing a private email on the internet is vile and wrong, even if the names are changed to protect the innocent.  I sure hope that your private messages are not published in the same way that this individuals are.

this is so over the top that it's tough to believe that it's for real.

but let's leave that aside for the moment and grant that there are orthodox nut jobs out there and that it is in fact for real.

intermarriage is a fact and it won't disappear. when our forefathers and foremothers literally went through fires: burnt at the stake to maintain their faith and today we calmly accept intermarriage, there is a disconnect for someone with a consciousness of history.

certainly the rigidity of judaism and its reluctance to accept the convert or the offspring of a mixed marriage without the stringency of the law is something that is not absolute and might change over time.  certainly the flexibility of reform and those who portray intermarriage as an opportunity constitutes a mockery to those who value tradition.  over time something good might result, but to declare something good doesn't make it good, just with a simple declaration.

a syncretic judaism that adopts elements of christianity might result in the long term and who can deny that torah has sufficient strength to propagate any of a variety of variations on a theme.

certainly those who consider the holocaust recent and wish to replenish the numbers lost will bemoan those lost to the faith.

certainly those who see the challenge of israel's survival as hanging in the balance may consider the dwindling numbers as a steepening of the challenge.

 every child born is a bundle of potential.  every act of love is a positive addition to a world sorely lacking in love.  every kindness shown to a fellow human being is a plus and every ridiculous hateful word is a minus.

yet let us accept that jewish vulnerability still exists and numbers still "matter" and not deny that demographic trends might reflect a troubling reality.

Two things:

1.  It seems that cousin Moishe's father wasn't Jewish and he has problems with this.  His tirade seems to be classic "reaction formation".

2.  What's the thing with Elle Macpherson?  Moishe's mother tempted Noah with a supermodel?  Damn, I should live so long........  

Susan, I could not agree with you more. I too am in a relationship with a supportive non-Jew, and did spend a long time trying meet that perfect Jewish man. I can't believe some of the anti-intermarriage rhetoric I hear (although this was clearly the most insane and racist I've ever heard).

Judaism should not be defined biologically; we are a social group that carries a set of values, literatures, and practices that we pass down because they are meaningful to us - what is there to be threatened by? Are Jews afraid that Judaism is so unappealing that it must be forced upon children as a "biological status," because the content of the religion/culture isn't enough? There is so much that is positive and valuable in Judaism that we can share it with non-Jews without worrying that Jews are going to disappear. Judaism will disappear if it's presented in an exclusionary and separatist way.

We need more intermarried Jews to speak out and be proud of maintaining Judaism in their families. Good for you!

My husband is a blessing...and I shudder to think of the teensy minds that would have kept us apart because of religion. Funny thing is, he is far more supportive of my Judaism (and my daughter's as well) than some Jewish men that I have been involved with have been. He respects me and my culture and faith...and I accept him and his. Funny thing is, that when it comes right down to our core religious beliefs and values (that God is good, loving, being turned off totally to dogma yet being very spiritually connected and believing strongly in God's existence, protection, the need to make the world better by living a life serving others etc) we are very much alike. We don't really think of it as an intermarriage...just a good marriage.

So if you don't like intermarriage...then don't do it. But don't hate on folks who make different choices. Or get all smarmy and snide and make rude insinuations that the only way someone could come to a different conclusion is by being woefully self hating or ignorant (despite the existence of many intermarried folks who are religiously active, participating members in their synagogues) etc. Fundamentally, I think it boils down (whether the issue is intermarriage, gay marriage, reproductive choice, women's rights, etc) to a control issue. Can you (whether you agree with another person's decision or not) be OK with someone having a different worldview and allowing them to make their own choices based on what their own moral compass guides them to do without either villifying them or trying to take away their option to make their own choices. Because noone on the other side of the tolerance for diversity divide is trying to limit other options. People who intermarry are not out to diabolically attack Jews who want to marry other Jews. Mazel Tov! Great, go be happy. Gay people aren't trying to stop heterosexuals from hooking up, pro-choicers aren't trying to make anti-choicers have abortions and women who want equal rights aren't on a diabolical mission to prevent the baking of cookies.

Shalom!

Because it's hard to be offended by something so over the top that cannot be taken seriously.  To SusanJB: I appreciate your story and agree with your position.  But something like Moishe's diatribe deserves scorn and laughter rather than a serious response.  I hope the cousin didn't humor Moishe in his reply by wasting time trying to reason with Moishe. 

I think this is my favorite line: "I will tell you honetsly, you are literally killing your mother, becasue literally that is what you are doing."

 Yes, "literrally", because literally actually means metaphorically.  LOL

 --Z

What is particularly pitiful is that he relies on obscure and rejected opinions in halakhah (such as that a Jew MUST charge a gentile interest, and that a gentile is presumed to engage in bestiality, and that gentiles will be slaves of Jews in the future).

To be sure, Moishe's mind is clouded with irrational bigotry. His powers of reasoning and logic are also put into question by his statement, "I will delete without reading any 'clever' or 'irritated' responses that do not imediately acknowledge and address what I am saying." He honestly expects a fruitful result by issuing totalitarian demands and apodictic statements, expecting Noah to respond to arrogation of authority by Moishe? Pathetic.

But beyond all this, what is pathetic is that even from a textual basis, his arguments have no validity. That is, not only is his bigotry and closemindedness lamentable from an ideological or theological or philosophic standpoint, but the beliefs that he does have are not even Orthodox ones; his arguments rely on statements that violate Orthodox halakhah. (Now, his statements DO have sources, but he has utterly misinterpreted them, and twisted them almost beyond recognition. I can elaborate if anyone wishes, showing Moishe's sources and how he has mangled them.)

So he's not even Orthodox; Moishe is staking his entire life on Orthodoxy, rejecting his family in favor of his religion, and in the end, he doesn't even have that one thing, viz. his religion. In the end, he has nothing but a non-Jewish, non-Orthodox bigotry. 

It's always entertaining to hear out the extremes, but this Moishe guy's opinions should not be the place where this discussion takes place. 

He represents no one but his own brain washed pathological self. This is so far from the mainstream of orthodox belief that you can only laugh at this.

(*Gentile father/Jewish mother), so I always like a good multi-sided rap on intermarriage. For one thing, we're under-represented. My mom (in her 70s, highly secular) says Jewish women instinctually don't marry Out unless he's more Out than she is (like Black or Korean or something, I guess). Gotta wonder, though. I mean, she married an Anglo-Celtic guy and here I am. 

Anyway. Whatya bet, if Noah had been Noa and Sheila had been Shane, Moish couldn't even have found words for that abomination. He might just have gone out and stabbed someone. It's been done.

intermarriage is considered a problem, but so are the fundamentalist whackjobs. while the Orthodox certainly don't approve of intermarriage, the viewpoints expressed in this series of emails are way too extreme and most sane individuals would be embarrassed to belong to the same group as this nut. in my experience with interfaith relationships, i've been lucky that the Orthodox i encoutered were willing to counsel me rather than push me away immediately simply because the guy at the opposite end of the sofa in the session lacked MOT status. i suppose my being female also helped in these instances (you know...logistics and all).

doesn't it make more sense to retain intermarried Jews rather than hurl obscenities and threats at them via the internet? that would be the more logical thing to do.

as far as the number of Jews in the world, that has been debated for years and may be higher or lower depending on one's defintion of who is a Jew.

Mike has a lot of truth in his criticims for Moishe and I would like to chime in as well to denounce his description of Noah's girlfriend as an "animal."  That is a highly offensive characterization and Moishe needs to be called out for making such a statement.  As Mike has indicated--his specific points are also off.

However, regarding the generalities--Moishe is correct and this is not Orthodxy--it is mainstream Jewish thought and even Reform Rabbis have the same point of view concerning intermarriage (although there is no need to reference Reform Rabbis since they are not relevant).

It is also apparent that Moishe is concerned for his cousin and this is admirable and I believe Moishe deserves compliments for his concern.  Indeed, Noah has chosen a bad path and there is no indication he will bring his girlfriend to conversion.  Unspoken is the real problem that might occur when Noah changes his mind and wants to be a BT. Noah needs to know that no matter what could ever happen-- Judaism will survive and he is a Jew able to return.

The moment our community becomes so blah about another Jew marrying out--it is a horrible disaster.  The fact that Noah has a cousin willing to put positive pressure on him is good.  The tragedy is not that Moishe has spoken but that he has spoken without care and sensitivity and he has brought his cousin to a quick bit of anger and this is proof that Moishe may have the correct bottom line but the wrong approach.

Therefore, I feel there is more "right" with Moishe than his critics on this folder.  

With all respect to you, David, I find your response incredible.

Of course intermarriage is wrong; of course it is a disaster. No one will disagree here.

Rabbi Marc Angel, in his article in Tradition 12:3-4 (Winter-Spring 1972), "Another Halakhic Approach to Conversions" discusses the view of Rabbi Benzion Uziel. Rabbi Uziel, the Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel in the days shortly preceeding and following 1948, believed that in cases of intermarriage, we should give Orthodox conversions even to non-Jewish spouses who are not prepared to become Orthodox/observant. Ideally, all converts should be observant, but, nevertheless, halakhah holds that after-the-fact (post facto), or in cases of need, this ideal can be waived, and even non-observant converts are kosher converts according to Orthodox halakhah.

For all the following URLs, I had to insert "XX" in the "www" and ".com"/".org", in order to get past the spam filter. So remove the XX to turn wXXww and oXXrg, etc. into www and org.

For more details on Rabbi Uziels' view, see Rabbi Angel's article, "The responsa of Rabbi Uziel", at httpXX://www.jewishideas.org/responsa/responsa-of-rabbi-uziel Many other rabbis held see similar positions; see
--- Professor Zvi Zohar, "Halakhic conversion of non-religious candidates", adducing numerous other Sephardi rabbis, wXXww.jewishideas.oXXrg/responsa/halakhic-conversion-of-non-religious-candidates
--- Professor Zvi Zohar, "Retroactive Annulment of Giyyur (Conversion)?", wXXww.jewishideas.oXXrg/articles/retroactive-annulment-giyyur-conversion
--- Rabbi Marc Angel, "Conversion to Judaism: Halakha, Hashkafa, and Historic Challenge", wXXww.jewishideas.oXXrg/min-hamuvhar/conversion-judaism-halakha-hashkafa-and-histori
--- Professor Marc B. Shapiro, "Marc B. Shapiro - Responses to Comments and Elaborations of Previous Posts III ", seforim.traditiononline.oXXrg/index.cfm/2008/8/29/Responses-to-Comments-and-Elaborations-of-Previous-Posts-III, section s. v. "6. I have been asked to say something about the current conversion controversy."

But let us return to Rabbi Angel's 1972 article, op. cit. Rabbi Uziel based his leniency on what is said by the Prophet Malachi:
Judah has dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the holiness of the Lord which He loves and has married the daughter of a strange god. May the Lord cut off to the man that does this . . . (Malachi, 2:11-12).

Above, in "The responsa of Rabbi Uziel", we read:
Rabbi Uziel’s attitude is reflected in another of his responsa (Mishpetei Uziel, 5698, no. 26): “It is incumbent upon us to open the door of repentance; our sages of blessed memory did much for the benefit of those who would repent….I admit without embarrassment that my heart is filled with trembling for every Jewish soul that is assimilated among the non-Jews. I feel in myself a duty and mitzvah to open a door to repentance and to save [Jews] from assimilation by invoking arguments for leniency. This is the way of Torah, in my humble opinion, and this is what I saw and received from my parents and teachers.”

In other words, it is precisely because of the severity of intermarriage, that Rabbi Uziel was so lenient. Rabbi Yisrael Salanter was known for being very lenient regarding the Yom Kippur fast, often telling people to eat rather than fast. He was asked, and he replied, "I'm not lenient on Yom Kippur; I'm rather strict on saving lives". Similarly, Rabbi Uziel was so lenient on conversion precisely because he was so strict on intermarriage. (By contrast, those who recently annulled Rabbi Drukman's conversions, the annullers are apparently not concerned at all that now, these non-Jews will live in Israel, speak fluent Hebrew, and marry Jews. By contrast, Rabbi Drukman was concerned with the prohibition of intermarriage, and strove to prevent intermarriage. The annullers, by contrast, are lenient on intermarriage.)

----------

So we've established that everyone (except those who annulled Rabbi Drukman's conversions) is concerned about the prohibition of intermarriage. Everyone (except the Haredim) holds that it is a mitzvah to prevent intermarriage.

But this is no justification for Moishe's grave and disgusting distortions of Torah. The Torah does not say that non-Jews are animals and slaves; the Torah does not say that a Jew and a non-Jew cannot connect maritally as human and human. The Talmud says of Jews, "atem keru'im adam" ("You are called Adam" or "You are called man"), meaning that Jews, even Jews, are considered humans. Non-Jews are obviously humans, and Jews are humans as well. (One could theoretically argue that only Jews are humans, and that non-Jews are not humans, but this is difficult, since everyone agrees that non-Jews are descended from Adam. To say that they are descended from Adam but not human would require some mental gymnastics or some very questionable Biblical exegesis. For details, see Rabbi Judah Halevi's Sefer haKuzari.) Our sages explain "Derech eretz kadmah laTorah", "The ordinary ways of the world come before Torah". This means that ontologically and chronologically, a Jew is first of all a human. Now, G-d, at Sinai, took Jews out of that classification for the purposes of the mitzvot and the Torah. A Jew is not allowed to marry a non-Jew, etc. But in the end, though a Jew is prohibited to marry a non-Jew, this relationship is still conceivable by virtue of their common humanity, and were it not for the prohibition given at Sinai, there'd be no moral problem whatsoever with this intermarriage.

We might say that a Jew is essentially a "human of the Mosaic persuasion". (Not that I am endorsing the Reform "German of the Mosaic persuasion". This is certainly false; the Jewish people constitute a nation, "Am Yisrael" ("The People of Israel"). But just as a German can be called a "human of the Germanic persuasion", a Jew can be called a "human of the Mosaic persuasion". And just as a German is bound by German law despite his also being a normal human, a Jew too is bound by Jewish law even though he is also a human. The Reformers were wrong here as well; they felt that being a "German of the Mosaic persuasion" exempted one from Jewish law, as if a German is exempted from German law by virtue of being a human as well.)

See Rambam/Maimonides's Shemonah Perakim: there, Rambam notes that whereas with the ethical laws, a person should make G-d's will his own personal will (i.e., since G-d prohibited murder, one should not even desire to murder, likewise with theft, etc.), by contrast, with ritual commandments, a person should say, "I love pork, but what can I do? G-d has forbidden it to me". That is, the ritual commandments, while legally binding, do not change morality. Pork is prohibited, and intermarriage is prohibited, but one should not look at pork and intermarriage as disgusting from a moral standpoint. G-d has prohibited them, for very good reasons even (for example, raising a Jewish family is much easier is both parents are Jewish, the laws of kashrut help ensure Jewish unity, etc.), but there is nothing intrinsically immoral about pork and intermarriage on a human pre-Jewish level. By contrast, one should feel in his inner recesses that murder and theft are wrong, and even if G-d had never prohibited them, one would still be required to refrain from them, for they are intrinsically immoral.

Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, the leader of German Orthodoxy before the Holocaust, said that whereas we say a beracha on ritual commandments, we never say a beracha on moral commandments (giving tzedaka, for example), because the moral commandments would be commandments and intrinsically obligatory even without G-d's command. On the other hand, had G-d not commanded the ritual commandments, they would not be prohibited at all.

The Talmudic rabbis in fact said, in the book Sifra, in very literal translation: "The ritual commandments are the commandments that were they not written [in the Torah by G-d], there'd be no need to write them [ourselves]. The moral commandments are those commandments that were they not written [in the Torah by G-d], there would be in fact an obligation to write them [ourselves]."

Do not mistake me: the ritual commandments are obligatory. But their obligation is different than the obligation of the moral commandments. And we should not be surprised; elsewhere in Sifrah, we are taught that G-d took us out of Egypt in order that we'd keep the laws of proper weights and measures. Rabbi Yom Tov Schwarz, in his book Eyes to See, notes that weights and measures is given as an a fortiori: if merely using wrong weights so prohibited, all the more so to steal and rob outright! So if we were taken out of Egypt for the sake of the laws of weights, this really means we were taken out of Egypt for the sake of social morality and justice in general. Similarly, notes Rabbi Schwarz, while the Talmud says an unmerciful and unkind Jew should be suspected of not really being a Jew, the Talmud never impugns the Jewishness of someone who breaks Shabbat or kashrut. A Jew who violates Shabbat is a sinful Jew; a Jew who steals or insults another person is not merely a sinful Jew, but may perhaps not be a Jew at all, according to the Talmud. In fact, this is halakhah in the Rambam and Shulhan Arukh: someone who is not kind or merciful, you should suspect they are not really Jewish, and the laws against intermarriage apply to them. This is clear-cut halakhah, written in black-and-white in the codes of Jewish law. 

The fact is, the chosenness of the Jewish people is almost a historical accident. That is, there is no deep-seated metaphysical justification for Jewish chosenness. If G-d's purpose is for all humanity to worship Him and behave morally, of what purpose are the Jewish people? Rather, the fact is that historically, mankind sinned in Eden and before the Flood and at the Tower of Babel, and finally, G-d decided to take a slower path: He chose one righteous man, Avraham, and of him, made a whole nation whose purpose is to educate all mankind. ("A kingdom of priests and a holy nation" - Exodus 19:5-6; and what is a "priest" if not a leader of his congregation?) The purpose of the Jewish people, then, is to elevate all of mankind to the level we currently occupy. Some might call it "ethical monotheism", while others (based on the Amidah) will call it "tikkun olam". Either way, the Jewish people do not have any intrinsic spiritual advantage. So while intermarriage is prohibited, because it destroys the Jewish people and frustrates our task as a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation", a "light to the nations", nevertheless, on the human level, there is no reason to assume that a Jew and a non-Jew cannot make a perfectly good couple. Only, this "perfectly good couple" will not be a Jewish one, capable of serving G-d's intent that the Jews be a priestly nation apart from all other nations. Rather, it will be a "perfectly good couple" of the human persuasion; this is fine on a human level, but it lacks the Jewish particularity.

In fact, Rabbi Benzion Uziel (whom we cited earlier on conversion) said it is obvious that Jews and gentiles must respect each other and each other's knowledge: since Jews and gentiles, he said, are working for the same goal (tikkun olam, etc.), it is obvious we must respect each other. The goal of Judaism, according to Rabbi Uziel, is to "perfect the world under the sovereignty of the Almighty" (l'taken olam b'malkhut Shad-ai, as we say in the Amida), and from this phrase is derived the phrase "tikkun olam". (l'taken olam is the verb, tikkun olam is the noun) 

Moishe, then, has ENTIRELY misunderstood what it means to be Jewish. He hasn't the faintest slightest inkling of a clue what it means to be Jewish. Therefore, he cannot understand why intermarriage is prohibited. If one believes that the Jew is intrinsically superior to the non-Jew in his soul, and if one believes that Jews and gentiles lack a common humanity and goal for life, then of course one will speak as Moishe does. But in truth, Moishe has no idea whatsoever what it means to be Jewish.

-----

Also, Moishe ENTIRELY is mistaken on how to bring others close to Torah. Even if he were entirely correct in his philosophic views (he is entirely incorrect, however), he would still be entirely incorrect on his pedagogic tactics.

To bring the distant closer to Torah, the way is NOT to cast scorn and brimstone on them. Rather, one must show them love and show them with love and intellectual arguments that Judaism is correct.

The reason is one advanced by Rabbi Yaakov Ettlinger (the teacher of the famous Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch), and followed by almost all Orthodox rabbi today: today's non-Orthodox Jews are not like the heretics of yore. Back in the Medieval era, everyone, even heretics, knew that Orthodoxy was authentic. A person might violate halakhah, but he still knew he was violating the Torah. But today, things are different; non-Orthodox Jews honestly and truly believe they are following the Torah. A non-Orthodox Jew who intermarries or eats pork honestly believes the Torah permits this. Rabbi Yom Tov Schwarz, in his truly magnificent and grand book Eyes to See (wXXww.urimpublications.cXXom/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=UP&Product_Code=Eyes) devotes an entire chapter to this topic. He notes that Nachmanides (RambaN), for example, said that there could come a day when Jews, through no fault of their own, honestly believe the Torah is no longer legally binding anymore. This is surely an error, but it is a well-intentioned error, and we cannot treat those in error as heretics. Long long ago, RambaM (Maimonides) already ruled that the children of Karaites are not heretics, for they were raised from their youth in the Karaite heresy, and they (the children) cannot be expected to realize that Karaism is wrong. They simply don't know any better.

It is the same with non-Orthodox Jews today. Even if Moishe were correct that non-Jews are beasts and animals with no value save as slaves (thank G-d he is wrong here!), his tactics would still be in error. He cannot expect Noah to realize, via fire and brimstone and scorn and derision, that Torah is correct. He cannot blame Noah for not instinctively knowing that Judaism is true and that the Torah is binding. Rather, Moishe must lovingly and persuasively show Noah that the Torah is true. The answer is with emotional love and intellectual rigour, with clear and convincing proofs and with brotherly love.

In Tradition 23:4, Rabbi Yehuda Amital wrote an excellent article on this, titled, "A Torah Perspective on the Status of Secular Jews Today". Read the article at wXXww.edah.oXXrg/backend/coldfusion/search/document.cfm?title=A%20Torah%20Perspective%20on%20the%20Status%20of%20Secular%20Jews%20Today&hyperlink=amital1%2Ehtml&type=Document&category=Jewish%20Diversity%2FRelating%20to%20the%20Non%2DOrthodox&authortitle=Rabbi&firstname=Yehuda&lastname=Amital&pubsource=Tradition%2C%2023%3A4&authorid=334

So David, I agree with you that "Moishe may have the correct bottom line but the wrong approach". But this is such an understatement, that I believe it obscures matters. Moishe has the correct bottom line (intermarriage is wrong), but his approach (non-Jews are animals, and convince Noah with fire and brimstone) is so unbelievably wrong, that it is almost irrelevant whether he has anything right. He is 0.001% right and 99.999% wrong. Moishe's words are so disgusting and so misguided (does anyone here think that Noah anymore has the slightest chance of ever becoming a loyal Jew, after what Moishe has said in Judaism's name?), that I believe it is pernicious and dangerous to do anything but emphasize the error in his words.

Mike--as I said previously--we agree.  For you to say, "no one disagrees that intermarriage is wrong" is quite a fantasy.  Indeed, all of Jewcy disagrees.  This is why, on balance--I must indicate that I believe we are more with Moishe than against him when one considers the weight of the other side.

Noah has no current interest in Judaism--his marriage to his girlfriend will keep him forever on that track.  Our verdict--it is a bad thing.  Everyone else on this thread disagrees with us--they believe that when Noah or any other Jew marries out--it is no problem and no important thing.  You, me and Moishe disagree.

You and I are united around the point that Moishe's approach is wrong-headed and counter-productive and in specific ways misses what might be described as the Jewish traditional viewpoint.  Your willingness, btw, to recite the Rabbinic sources you have--in all most ALL cases with due diligence--is exemplary.

My sense here is that Noah has not been turned off by Moishe--it is the opposite, Noah has tuned out Moishe while Moishe deserves credit for at least hanging in there and trying.  Moishe is showing some counter-punch in  a context that is more familiar to him than it could be for us.  Noah's non-interest in Judaism has almost zero relevance to Moishe's words  in these letters.  So while I wholly condemn Moishe for some of his words, much of his approach and some of his halacha--I still give him a credit for making the effort in a way he saw fit (despite the fact that it was the wrong approach.)  Indeed, if a man saw fit to help an injured person and no one else was there to help and this man did make an attempt even if much of what he did failed to give the injured party to specific help that was required--I would still stand by that clumsy effort.

I value your long detailed response and I have tried to respond in a conversational way.  I hope you will consider the fact that this is JEWCY and not Chabad.org, Aish.com or Torah.org.

Mike--regarding my point that says "we agree"--I am merely indicating that I have read what you have written and I have substantial agreement.  By contrast, I have not formulated a large response on this thread so I am not here to presume that you agree with me.  I am merely indicating that based on your statement--I express my agreement with you and I anticipate that if I gave a full response, you would also agree with me.

I have also indicated in some ways how we might actually not agree but it is my conclusion that this is not a substantial disagreement.

David,

Granted that in truth, very few here (save the two of us and Moishe) agree that intermarriage is bad. I said what I said for polemical purposes, but your point is quite true.

But again, I think it is extremely dangerous for us to point out any truth in Moishe's words. Anything but distancing ourselves from Moishe as much as possible, is to shoot ourselves in the foot.

For Orthodox Jews to voice any agreement with Moishe would be like for Orthodox Jews to publicly point out agreement with Hitler. Hitler's prohibition on Jews marrying Germans would actually sit quite well with Orthodox Jews, but will kiruv workers gain anything by pointing this out?

Moishe is quite correct that intermarriage is wrong, and you and I agree with Moishe on this. But I think that our voicing this agreement with Moishe will not assist our efforts. Rather, those here on Jewcy who support (or are ambivalent regarding) intermarriage, will only be galvanized; they'll see what Orthodox Jews like Moishe are like, they'll conclude that the law against intermarriage is as racist as Moishe is, and they'll naturally conclude that if people like Moishe oppose intermarriage, then surely intermarriage must be the proper thing to do.

We don't want there to be any association between us and Moishe, even if, technically, we may have points of agreement with Moishe.

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You say, "My sense here is that Noah has not been turned off by Moishe--it is the opposite, Noah has tuned out Moishe while Moishe deserves credit for at least hanging in there and trying."

I am amazed.

I do not know Noah's upbringing, but I will assume it was similar to that of most non-Orthodox Jews. In other words, he is entirely blameless for whatever errors he has on Judaism, because he was not raised as an observant Jew, and he cannot be expected to prophetically realize that Judaism is correct.

On the other hand, Moishe's incredibly and mind-boggling perverse and disgusting defense of Judaism will only serve to distance Noah further. I wouldn't be surprised if Noah now hates every Orthodox Jew alive; who could blame him if he now thinks that Moishe accurately represents Orthodox Judaism?

To put it bluntly: Moishe committed a hilul hashem. Period. A hillul hashem. In its fullest sense.

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David, I respect the fact that you wish to support Moishe's opposition to intermarriage. You are correct that Moishe, you, and I are in full agreement on intermarriage per se. But Moishe's words are so putrid, that I cannot envision anything but harm arising from our association with him.

Mike, I surely hope you can see what Jewcy is doing with features such as this one.  It is a simple follow up on David Kelsey's attack against kiruv.  Never in the media can one find the opposite kind of story which is an every day miracle--a Jew finding himself back to Judaism.  Nope, instead, it is an approach to convince all Jews that their lives are non-observance are the best raod, as Mikep says above--Reform Judaism has the authenticity and all of Orthodoxy is fraud.  This is the short, bottom line for most of the liberal sphere of Jewish life.  I am here to denounce it.

You are to be commended for wanting kiruv to always have a wholesome approach and you are correct to believe that Judaism requires such a stand. As a BT, you recognize that Judaism lives up to its ideals therefore it is painful to read tales that have a Jew throwing insults at non-Jews and spin halacha in bad faith so others can stand back, like it is the Gong Show, and judge Moishe and "his Judaism" as representing  all that the left loves to say about us--our alleged bigotry, narrow-mindedness, racism, etc.  The news that smart, young articulate Jews find their path to Judaism kills THEM since it tells them they could also find their way back as well.  They want to believe they are doing the right thing in their self-hatred and they can stand no news to the contrary.  Why argue with you or me when they can bring up as their star witness Moishe?

Notice that the left impeaches itself at every turn and their false idols are revealed as such all the time.  They waste no time fretting over it.  They sell the same worthless garbage all the time and they figure they can always attract some 'customers.'  Hence, Dem pollster Stan Greenberg has polled people to discover they are not buying into the whole global warming theory so he urges the Left to alter its message and frame the issue as less a matter of "green" and more  a matter of pollution but he understands this is just posturing.   Moishe is far less offensive than the person known as the Al Gore and yet they bestown gifts and Nobel prizes on Gore's head.  Their message thrives despite the ugliness and the lies--our's is in danger despite its wholesomeness.They divide while we wish to unite.

I will happily bond with Moishe in common cause for the future of the Jewish people.  The bad faith of his teachers regarding the supposedly evil goyim were lifted from passages in the Talmud in context of the early apostates who later founded the Christian Church.  Their animosity is not our own and our Christians are not their goyim.  Moishe has Rabbis who have taught these passages incorrectly and they need to be denounced and challenged.  Anti-semites who are only nominally Christian misuse those same passages to defame the Jewish people.  

Noah does not hear from people close to him that it is wrong to marry a non-Jew but he has heard from the clumsy Moishe.  Our parents may have married only from a vague sense given to them by their parents and they did not require reasons to be Jewish and reasons to marry only a Jew.  Today, many Jews see no reason to remain Jewish.  They have no connection to Jewish history, the Jewish people or to Judaism.  Al Gore uses fear and anger and lies to motivate people and Moishe has done some of the same thing.  It worked for Al but it backfires on Moishe.We are losing this battle and as much as we need to do what is best all the time--sometimes we fail.  But please give Moishe credit for trying.  The point that his girlfriend is not an animal by Jewish law pales in comparison to the fact that this line is a horrible strategy to dissuade a young man in love.

The greatest insult is not Moishe's blundering words but the silence so many others offer when Jews leave Judaism.

David,

Indeed, I am quite aware what Jewcy is attempting with such features as this one. This is precisely when I so vehemently protested that Moishe does not represent Orthodoxy. This is not apologetics by me; I honestly and truly do believe that Moishe's words are a pathetic caricature of Orthodoxy. However, I am concerned that what is obvious to me is not obvious to non-Orthodox Jews, and I so I feel an imperative to point out how very non-Orthodox Moishe truly is, lest Jewcy and its readers use Moishe as a straw-man with which to discredit Orthodoxy.

In other words, the two of us both are trying to combat Jewcy's agenda, each in our own way. You seek to emphasize that Moishe's stand against intermarriage per se is correct Orthodoxy, even as his particular implementation is in error. I, on the other hand, seek to altogether discredit Moishe as Orthodoxy's spokesman. Each in our own way, we are combatting the discrediting of Orthodoxy. Even though I disagree with your approach, I do respect it.

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You say about me, "As a BT, you recognize that Judaism lives up to its ideals...". Actually, I completely disagree with this statement. There was a time when I did believe that Judaism lives up to its ideals, but this was a time when I had been exposed almost exclusively to the German/British Neo-Orthodox variety of Orthodoxy, as exemplified especially by Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch and Rabbi Dr. J. H. Hertz. As far as I knew, Orthodoxy was represented by individuals not only with profound Talmudic knowledge, but also with PhDs in semitics and philosophy. For me, Orthodoxy at its truest was exemplified by rabbis who declared that the Bible's and Talmud's message was one for humanity, a message that recognized and embraced all that is true and correct in the world's knowledge and endeavors, even as it eschews all that is false and incorrect in the same world's knowledge and endeavors. I have since seen that Rabbi Benzion Uziel, the late Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, would wholeheartedly agree with Rabbi Hirsch on all this.

In Rabbi Uziel's own words (remember, these were penned by a traditional Orthodox rabbi, one without any university education, in fact),
Our holiness will not be complete if we separate ourselves from human life, from human phenomena, pleasures and charms, but (only if we are) nourished by all the new developments in the world, by all the wondrous discoveries, by all the philosophical and scientific ideas which flourish and multiply in our world. We are enriched and nourished by sharing in the knowledge of the world; at the same time, though, this knowledge does not change our essence, which is composed of holiness and appreciation of God's exaltedness.

However, ever since I moved to Israel and became exposed to Orthodoxy of the non-German/British variety, I have discovered that precious few Orthodox Jews subscribe to the Orthodoxy which for me is the only true Orthodoxy. By contrast, normative Orthodoxy is indeed parochial, myopic, fearful, racist, cowardly, misanthropic, and obscurantist. I write this with pain in my heart, taking no joy in this declaration.

In fact, I would indeed agree with David Kelsey on the harm done by Haredi kiruv institutions, and the sorts of baalei teshuva they produce. A baal teshuva per se is a beautiful thing, but a Haredi baal teshuva in particular is not so.

I elaborate on my disatisfaction with Orthodoxy in my "One Man's Judaism: A Reply to Eli Putterman's “The Theological Concessions of Modern Orthodoxy” (Kol haMevaser 2:7)", http://www.scribd.com/doc/16251546/Kol-Hamevaser-27-Reply-to-Puttermans-Theological-Concessions-of-Mo

 This is the type of racist, bigoted cult fantasy that WE are supporting every time we give money to an orthodox yeshiva, kiruv organization or charity.  The only way to stop these lies from being taught to children or teens or even adults is to cut off their funding at the knees.  Countless non-Chereidi give money to these institutions, suffering from some sort of "fiddler-on-the-roof" nostalgia or holocaust guilt, without realizing what they are actually teaching the students.  This letter should be widely circulated to Jewish organizations and Federations to show what the UO really are.  It's disgraceful and disgusting.   

I'll second Ahavah. Professor Menachem Friedman, an expert on Haredi sociology and history at Bar Ilan University, has noted that two factors have supported the rise of Haredi yeshiva culture:

1) The modern welfare state, in which the government will fund your refusal to get a practical education and occupation;

2) Nostalgia-motivated tzedaka.

Regarding the second, Friedman convincingly shows that Haredism has very little authentic connection to prewar Eastern European Orthodoxy. As Friedman says, "In my opinion the Eastern European, Ashkenazi character of haredi Jewry remains questionable to this day."

A crucially needed desideratum: Israel MUST stop funding Haredism. Haredism is able to survive in Israel soley due to the funding provided to it by the Israeli government. Were the Israeli government to cease this, the Haredim would literally have a choice between getting jobs or starving.