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The Choosing People
By Shmuel Rosner / April 16, 2007
[Last week, Ha’aretz Chief U.S. Correspondent Shmuel Rosner featured Jewcy editor in chief Tahl Raz as a guest on his site. Rosner and Raz e-mailed about the future of Judaism, Jewish peoplehood in America, and the volume of debate about Israel in the U.S, among other topics. Here’s how the discussion went down.]
Dear Tahl,
In your introductory letter to the readers of Jewcy you wrote that "In the thick, messy context of contemporary American life, it's a remarkable moment to be a Jew. There is unparalleled opportunity for people hell-bent on making a meaningful difference with their lives, but also an unprecedented uncertainty about the relevance of old traditions and institutions."
To be honest with you, I wonder if this is not the kind of language that every young generation uses as it evaluates the state of Judaism—there's always an opportunity, there's always uncertainty. So let's try to be more specific and I'll do it by throwing some commonly used words and phrases at you—and ask you to give me your quick assessment of the significance and meaning they have in contemporary Jewish life:
1. Jewish Peoplehood 2. Tikkun Olam 3. Intermarriage 4. Jewish Renaissance 5. Jewish organizations 6. Hebrew
Best, Rosner
Shmuel,
First, as for whether what I said in the Jewcy Welcome Letter is true of every generation of young Jews: For the vast majority of Jewish history it hasn't been true at all. There was little freedom to reevaluate old traditions and institutions when, for example, European monarchs empowered rabbis to administer Jewish communities like religious mini-states. But as Jewish communities were emancipated from rabbinic rule, sure, I think yes, young Jews have tended to similar language to describe what they were experiencing, because the progressive dissolution of the Jewish world by the solvent of modernity has presented each generation with similar challenges. But in the United States since World War II, the process has drastically accelerated, and no generation in Jewish history has been as free to define the nature of their Jewishness as are today's young American Jews. We're not just Jews by choice, we're Jews whose every single Jewish decision is a choice.
1. Jewish Peoplehood:
No significance, and too muddled a term to say that it has any concrete meaning. When the Jews of pre-WWI Poland didn't speak the language of their own country, occupied a distinctive economic and social niche, and had virtually no social interaction with non-Jews, it made sense to talk of them as a people. But American life has annihilated Jewish Peoplehood.
2. Tikkun Olam:
Essential. If Judaism can't inform Jews as to how to navigate the universal ethical dilemmas of modern life, then the religion isn't worth keeping. We're better off all converting to Quakerism. Tikkun olam will have to be a vastly more significant and better elaborated component of Judaism than it has historically been.
3. Intermarriage:
Significant in that it's crucial that we figure out how to overcome this anachronistic tribal obsession with endogamy. If Judaism and Jewishness are of value in the modern world, they will survive. If not, they won't. Intermarriage will ultimately have little to do with it. In any case, it's a natural feature of modern life, just as endogamy was a natural feature of shtetl life. People who think otherwise are tilting at windmills.
4. Jewish Renaissance:
The optimism is admirable—I'm not so sure we're seeing a 'Jewish Renaissance' right now. We're certainly seeing all sorts of exciting behavior, but we don't yet know whether this is the rebirth of Jewish culture or the eccentric senescence of a patient with Alzheimers.
The journalist in me says check back in a hundred years. The meddling sophist in me says I'm going to take a crack at arguing, yes, you're damn right it's a renaissance.
The seminal Jewish experience marking the past two centuries has been a flight from particularity. Being Jewish got us pogroms, the Holocaust, an alienating sense of otherness and so we converted, outmarried, or wherever possible, attempted to assimilate to the point of religionlessness. The way different Jewish denominations have approached this flight have produced the biggest schisms.
Until recently, the discussion of these schisms were dominated by an either/or proposition. The religious-minded and racialists called for a return to particularity and invested their time and money in strengthening the establishment and trying to eliminate things like intermarriage. They turned a lot of us off: We were Americans, part of the melting pot, and we had no intention of returning to the shtetl. The secularists and humanists, on the other hand, argued that Judaic particularity was outmoded and railed against what they considered a destructive nostalgia for ethnic purity. For these people, Jewish was cultural thing, not a God thing, so give us our bagel and Thomas Friedman and an Oprah-infused vision of the spiritual life, and leave us alone with your rules and demands. They also turned a lot of us off: it smacked of the hippie-yippie culture of narcissism, with its extremes of individualism and secularism, allowing Boomers to free themselves from the restrictive confines of family, religious, social, and political obligation so as to spend ever greater amounts of time on self-care and self-improvement.
Part of what might be called a Jewish Renaissance is an attempt at reconciliation. We're throwing the either/or out the window. A generation of Jews is emerging that has a less damaged, less complicated sense of Jewish identity. We want to be both particularly Jewish and particularly American and particularly of the world at large. The establishment wasn't built to handle that sort of nuance, and so we have a trend away from centralization toward denominationalism. If your institutions can't contain our multitudes, we're screaming, we'll build our own. And so you have this explosion of neighborhood minyans and innovative organizations and ad hoc digital communities that have no need for the strict divisions between “in” and “out.”
Whatever the outcome, it's not bad jokes and dance music on one side and Torah, Avodah, and Gemilut Hasidim on the other. It's not either hip and cool or sacred and pious. It won't work. The real progress of any potential movement or renaissance will be its resistance to primitive polarities; its detestation of closed milieus and empty edicts.
There's really nothing new here. As my friend Rabbi Andy Bachman likes to say, "If Judaism is anything, it's countercultural."
5. Jewish Organizations:
There was a report on Jewish identity issued last year that said essentially, “Traditionally, young Jews rebelled against mainstream Jewish organizations; today, they no longer rebel, because they don't even know the organizations exist.” That's about the score.
6. Hebrew:
All of what I've said is perfectly compatible with the fact that I'm deeply pro-Israel, and to make an uncomfortable admission publicly, I grit my teeth whenever I hear Jewish liturgy done in English. Intellectually the rationales are compelling for such alternative services; emotionally I can't help but feel they're lacking.
Anyone who wants access to the primary language of Jewish worship needs to learn Hebrew, and so does anyone who wants to understand Israeli society.
Tahl Raz
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Lets not forget the 1000′s of Jews with paternal Jewish heritage who don’t identify as Jews simply because certain Rabbi’s tell them they are not Jews.
Good week Moshe, please accept this invitation to come again.
Concerning Islam and avodah zarah. What is avodah zarah? If a religion preaches about 1 god, does monotheism mean that this god theology is excluded from being avodah zarah? As I said to you avodah zarah limits the reality of the god(s) to a 3 dimensional viewpoint which defines reality. This mirrors the demand of the scientific method for "empirical" evidence. Avodah zarah defined by this pre-condition, consequently includes the faith of Islam. It also includes Reform Judaism, and "Torah True Judaism", and even "halachic man" Judaism that simplifies halacha spirituality to only external ritualisms of faith. Monotheism is rhetoric vis-a-vis avodah zarah; it means nothing at all! But you ask Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One. Is this not monotheism?
No. Kre’a shma is not a mitvah of declaring one’s faith in the oneness of god, but rather acceptance of the obligation of the yoke of heaven. The two do not equal one another.
The siddur surrounds the kre’a shma with 2 blessings before and 1 after in the morning and 2 and 2 in the evening. Why? Prayer requires intent. Reading words in the Prayer Books because that’s what’s written, this does not qualify as "intent".
By the way I learn the framers of the siddur fashioned the entire siddur around Shabbot and the Chaggim. Rosh HaShanna and Yom HaKippor – the 10 days of t’shuvah – serve as, so to speak, the central bus station. The gemarah learns from nazir, that a unspecified vow means 30 days. Its fixed. Why?
If a person declares an offering to be for a burnt offering, this person can not later change his mind and declare the animal as being dedicated for a sin offering or any other offering – it’s fixed. Why?
Holiness.
The "high holy days" fix t’shuvah. What does this achieve? On the closing prayer of Yom HaKippor we publicly declared: Boruch Sham Kavod Malkuto L’Olam V’ed. Why?
After saying kre’a shma we say the same … Why?
The 10 days of T’shuva we affix upon ourselves the yoke of heaven which we accept upon our souls, its fixed and sealed and therefore …. Holy.
Two Chaggim proceed the High Holy Day, Passach and Shevuoth; and 2 blessings preceed the kre’a shma … Sukkot follows the High Holy Days and following kre’a shma comes emet i’yezeev!
The 1st Mishna of Rosh Hashanna teaches that there are 4 new years. From where in the Torah does do we learn this? All the other nations have 1 new year in their calendars, yet we Jews have 4?!
The gemara on this Mishna learns about the time a person has to fulfill a vow. The gemara includes various opinions, but all these diverse opinions stand upon a common foundation; they make their calculations based upon the Chaggim. How many Regelim – this excludes Rosh HaShanna and Yom HaKippor – are there in a year? 4! The 8th day of Succoth the sages of the gemara of Rosh HaShanna teach qualifies as a regel in it’s own right. Consequently, by the way I learn, the gemarah "understands" the intent of Rabbi HaNassi’s chiddush of 4 new years based upon the Biblical teaching of the 4 regelim! Hence in the evening prayers, 2 blessings follow the kre’a shma.
What about the p’suka d’zemra? It’s based upon Hallel; we read Hallel on all of the regelim. Why? It ties into the atonement offerings dedicated upon the new month. P’suka d’zemra sings a continuous praise concerning the "fixed" dedication of that month and the atonement of the goat for our sins. This is how I understand the intent of why the Prayer Book has affixed P’suka d’zemra prior to our saying kre’a shma.
Consequently the High Holy Days a person affixes the mitzvah of accepting the yoke of heaven for the coming year, its a holy dedication. The word One, that word means … the t’shuvah that I contemplated and dedicated to accomplish during those 10 days, that t’shuvah is One with my soul before G-d right now …
Baruk Sham Kavod Malkulto L’Olam V’ed.
Monotheism is a religious theology of faith, it has nothing to do with accepting the mitzva of the yoke of heaven! Our beliefs about the Creator, they exist only as our personal beliefs; humility on the other hand asks, how have I kept faith of my t’shuvah walk before the Elokim today and tonight! The Creator is bigger than my knowledge of God(s)! The issue of the mitzva of accepting the yoke of heaven means my being faithful to my defined brit commitments and dedications unto the Elokim. The suffix "im" that’s plural! The word "One" means my consistency and faithfulness unto this yoke that my t’shuva affixed as holy during the 10 days of Repentance. Upon this foundation stands the morning and evening prayers.
The fixed permanent sacrifices of the morning and evening the Cohanim dashed the blood upon the altar. Why?
Did the blood of animals make a brit and atonement for all the generations of brit Torah Israel? Say yes and behold avodah zarah! Blood exists in the 3 dimensional contexts of reality! But the nefesh within the blood transcends this limitation of reality! The dedication of the nefesh, that’s what’s holy in both sacrifices and prayer! The proof to the pudding lay in the eating. The standing prayer lacks a confessional v’dooey! A sacrifice in order to be a sacrifice absolutely requires a v’dooey/dedication. Yet the standing prayer lacks a v’dooey! How can the latter be in the place of the former when the former absolutely must have a v’dooey and the latter does not have – within it’s basic language – a v’dooey?
The solution, the gemarah of Yoma teaches. The sages and rabbi Meir debate concerning the nature of a v’dooey. R. Meir brings the language of the Torah and the v’dooey of Moshe our Teacher while the Sages bring 3 separate but identical opinions of v’dooey as found in the T’nach. How can the T’nach and even more so the sages oppose the Torah of Moshe? And even more, how can the halacha go like the sages against the v’dooey of Moshes our Teacher?
Solution: In a dispute between an individual and a plurality, the halacha goes like the majority. When does this rabbinic rule apply? In Rabbinic disputes. Consequently the v’dooey opinion of R. Meir, the v’dooey employed by Moshe our Teacher was a rabbinic v’dooey. When the Sages of the Great Sanhedrin in Ezrah’s day affixed the standing prayer which we pray today, they excluded the rabbinic v’dooey all together. The proof being that the Talmud learns that a person can add a rabbinic v’dooey in Shma Kallanoo! A person who prays with "kavvanna" can dedicate a v’dooey from the Torah. And this explains why the Rambam held that prayer qualified as a mitzvah from the Torah. The Ramban’s objections and proofs are not difficulties because they only prove that the language of the standing prayer is rabbinic in origin, but they fail to disprove that the v’dooey dedication, the heart and "soul" of prayer involves a dedication v’dooey from the Torah itself!
Prayer we learn from the 6 days of Creation, on each of these days the Elokim breathed the face of the soul into that day. The philosophers of the middle ages taught of 5 faces of the soul. But the parts are less than the sum of the whole, a 6th face being the collective soul holding all of the 5 faces, like the faces of tefillen and the directions that we shake the loolav! The standing prayer has 3 blessings before and 3 after, we surround the 13 middle blessing with our entire oath brit souls which we dedicate unto the Elokim. Prayer we call the Amidah, because ideally we stand before a Safer Torah and thereby can cut an oath brit upon our soul, thereby circumcising our hearts. Hence a nefesh dedication operates in the place of a nefesh dedication, prayer stands in the place of sacrifice!
The Talmud teaches that a person should make his prayers in a fixed place. What does this mean? Perhaps the fixed place exists in the bet kennesit, perhaps the fixed place exist in one’s home, its a dispute among reshonim scholars. The difficulty of both opinions being that prayer is not a matter of the place but is a matter of the heart! Consequently, by the way i learn, the fixed place of prayer means … we call HaShem by the name "Place". The greatest revelation of HaShem and the culmination of the Sinai revelation of the Torah occurred on Yom HaKippor! Affixing the 13 middot of HaShem unto the 13 middle blessings makes these blessings One long blessing. Hence the One blessing of Shabbat can replace the One blessing of the 13 middle blessings. One, meaning the 13 middot of the Elokim, they are One in my heart. Prayer accomplishes the purpose of the building of the Mishkan … that we build the Mishkan that the Elokim can dwells in the midsts of our hearts.
A valid objection unto this interpretation, the additional blessing against the faithless written by Sh’muel the small. In the Yerushami, the standing prayer only includes 18 and not 19 blessings! Its an excellent difficulty against the way I learn. My response, the Yerushalmi learns that over 247 prophets occupied themselves in writing the standing prayer. This means that the 120 prophets of the Great Assembly sealed the works of the earlier prophets of the 1st Temple period. The standing prayer contains such depth and profundity that our sages did not seal the fulness of its intent untill Sh’muel the small’s additional blessing. A proof to this interpretation, lies with the sages struggles with some of the books of the T’nach.
Islam is avodah zarah because it does not teach that the oath brit posseses the power to create souls from nothing. This learning comes from making a logical inference from the floods. The 7th chapter of Sanhedrin teaches the the generations of Adam profaned their oath, and the gemarah of Shavuoth teaches that if a person makes a vain oath he brings the whole world into danger. If the generations of Adam profaned their oath brit, the 1st word of Genesis contains "fire brit", and the floods destroyed the world, then an oath brit has the power to create a soul – which is called world – from nothing. It fails to distinguish between the animal soul that lives as long as the physical body lives and the oath brit soul which lives independent from the physical body, which the Talmud refers to as O’lam HaBa. The oath brit creation of the soul from nothing transforms man formed from physical clay into the image of the Elokim, whose image is not contained in the 3 dimensional physical universe. Islam is avodah zarah because it rejects the Torah revelation of Sinai that people living in the 3 dimensional physical world can unite the world to come and the wisdom of the generations, which the generations living in o’lam ha’ba, the bnai oath brit peoples of all the generations, who even after their 3 dimensional demise, still have a Torah obligation to learn Torah wisdom; the particular generations currently living in the 3 dimensional reality can, by doing mitzvot pass the living wisdom of the world to come unto the thirsty souls who have forgotten this wisdom. This world and the world to come are One by way of mitzvot! That’s the intent of 2nd paragraph of kre’a shma, and the 2nd blessing of the standing prayer! The avodah of prayer raises the dead unto life. When Rashi taught concerning the descending generations, the T’PeSH reading of Rashi’s P’Shat of comparing the Torah of Moshe with the Torah of Yeshua, that the generations dimenshed in Torah magnitude. The correct understanding of Rashi, that the living generations require mitzvot to pass the wisdom of the ages and generations unto the current generation. The Talmud in Brachot teaches that a person whose dead remain unburied is exempt from all the mitzvot. The gemara on this mishna teaches an aggadita that the dead though exept from mitzvot have an obligation to study and develop wisdom. Another example of this same idea, when Moshe our Teacher visited the yeshiva of Rabbi Akiva.
Islam is avodah zarah because it confuses the oath brit faith as being one and identical with a belief system in one god. The first word of avodah zarah, merits careful consideration, Islam when it said the Jews corrupted the Torah proved through this arrogance that Mohammad employed the Torah only as a convenient prop to support his beliefs and theologies. Islam is avodah zarah because the mitzvot stand upon the faith foundations of derech aretz; derech aretz does not depend upon mitzvot, it’s a primary secondary relationship. The theology of Islam never sought the revelation of knowing the Elokim through the middot revelation of Sinai. Because Islam rejected the Torah of Sinai, this makes it an av tumah of avodah zarah.
If you feel this understanding of the Torah merits closer consideration I welcome you to share your thoughts both with me and other Torah scholars. If you judge that other Torah scholars would like to see this letter, please distribute it as seems wise. Hatred without cause has plagued our people, how I learn represents only how I learn and nothing more authoritive. In this letter I have attempted to the best of my limited ability to answer your question in the most complete way based upon how i currently understand the Sha’s. My scholarship is very limited and allot I do not know. I am not an authority, simply a simple Jew attempting to explain to my peer why I hold that Islam qualifies as a faith of avodah zarah. The chiddushim found in this letter have profoundly influenced how I pray, and why i do mitzvot. When you were in my home I attempted to show you the profundities of derech eretz. Labelling derech eretz with "manners", I find both disgusting and revolting. Developing derech eretz entails eating from the tree of life; the revelation of the Torah at Sinai restores the ability of the bnai brit to eat from this fruit in each and every generation.
with respect and stay well
Rabbi Moshe Kerr
Or just maybe, alot of intermarriages don't end up with Jewish Children because the frummer than thou types as represented by the genocide weilding anonymous above have made many younger, American Jews loose the 'fire' of what it is to be Jewish as a culture and belief system, rather than just as an ethnic denominator like 'Italian' or 'Hispanic' or whatever.
We have a beautiful, vibrant Religion and Culture here, but as long as it continues to be spun by a group of negative people overrun with observing minutae rather than teaching the beauty and reasons behind that religious minutae, alot of people are not ever going to consider 'forcing' their children to observe Shabot, etc.
Just saying.
Like it our not, your out of the Ghetto… and your gonna have to meet us half way, or we'll leave without you.
And the LORD spake unto Asshole Anonymous, saying:
Any Jew who calleth another Jew "goy," "Nazi," "shiksa," "shaygetz," "Hitler" (including the misspelling "Hilter"), or "product of an intermarriage"…I, the LORD hereby declare thee non-Jewish, and cut thee off from thy kin. Moreover, from this day forth thou shalt shut the fuck up, get the fuck off the Internet, and stew in thy hate and parochialism until thou chokest.
I am the LORD thy God.
Perhaps Jews need to be much more agressive about converting non-Jewish spouses to Judaism.
Do you see yourself as an individual, or just as a part of a larger group. There’s really nothing uniquely Jewish (or unique) about bitter anonymous’ rants. They are the standard refrains of an ethnocentric. It’s the same urge to group identity that is motivating the shiites and sunnies to slaughter each other in Iraq.
Is bitter-anonymous a bigot? Well, he’s certainly shouldn’t be grouped with Nazis or the KKK just because he values his own group identity and wants to preserve it. But ethnocentricism is nevertheless harmful and outdated.
I think Tahl’s essential point is that American Jews are generally NOT ethnocentric. We might have some emotional connection to Judaism but our identity is much larger than Judaism. That’s why Judaism is a choice for us.
In contrast, being part of a group is obviously the source of bitter-anonymous’ whole identity. That’s why he can, with a straight face, compare intermarriage to genocide. He sees both as leading to a decrease in the group’s numbers. And if the group is all that matters (rather than the individual), then it doesn’t matter whether a decrease happens from death or assimilation.
To anyone who’s evolved beyond a strictly ethnocentric identity, such comparisons are absolutely sick.
i read this somewhere and thought it applicable….
“Whether on a personal level or a communal level, or perhaps both, I think we have all had times when we felt judged, insulted, picked-on, and discriminated against. I suppose, even if we disagree about everything else, we can at least bond over this. It’s seems to be human nature to want to find a group of people with whom we can identify; no one (that is mentally healthy) wants to go through life completely alone. Clearly, people will do/say all kinds of things in order to maintain that sense of connection. Fear can be an incredibly powerful motivator. Admittedly, I have much to learn about, well, everything. But, for what it’s worth, I think that only when we accept our own inherent imperfections, will we be fully able to approach life in a truly loving manner. Every one of us, even those “crazy” people who act in ways that seemingly make no sense, is a creation of G-d. For the sake of our awesome and giving Creator, who has allowed us this opportunity to develop a relationship with him, I hope that we can all begin to set aside this destructive propensity to judge and stereotype that which we don’t understand and instead recognize the myriad opportunities we have to make someone feel understood. While I’m quite aware that this will not solve the world’s problems, I do think, at the very least, it might bring some comfort and clarity to those whom we interact with on a daily basis. Ultimately, it seems that so often we talk ourselves in circles, not realizing that essentially we are all trying to say the same thing. We have a communication problem. And so I ask, G-d help us please, that we may all be blessed with the ability to overlook our personal biases and beliefs long enough to really listen to what somewhat else is saying.”
I love you all even if we don’t agree. At least everyone here cares enough to give this issue some thought…
And the bottom line is this: We are Jews not because we say we are or because we do specific things but because of one incontrovertible fact: we have neshamas (Jewish souls). (How’s that for a compound sentence, two colons and all?)
We get these neshamas in one of two ways. Either being born to a Jewish woman or converting according the Halacha, Jewish Law. For this to be true it means that, yes, God is real and there is spirituality in the universe and God is watching us and the Jewish religion is what it’s all about. It means that the entire Torah is true and any difficulty we might have with all this is also real and a test and it’s up to us to start learning and asking questions and, most importantly, doing.
And it’s unpleasant to read all the bickering, name-calling, etc. I have only 120 years or so on the planet, and I get tired and cranky from enough down here. The last thing I want to read or hear is a bunch on Jews not loving each other. C’mon, guys!
I guess, then, I was hallucinating when the holocaust survivors told me about how the intermarried couples were dragged out of their homes. I must have been seeing things, too, when I saw dozens of photos of intermarried couples with signs around their necks in Nazi Germany.
Won’t go down without a fight? Dude, I’ll bet you can’t get dressed without a fight. You want to call us names? Fine. Don’t care. But some of us actually DO work with Holocaust survivors and don’t like it when hysterical right wingers appropriate the term for their pet causes.
The only reason I’m being attacked is because I’m a proud Jew who takes an aggressive stand against the destruction of the Jewish community. If defending the Jewish people makes me a bigot well than I’m proud of being a bigot. The fact is that most American Jews are wimy, self-hating cowards who are slaves to their Gentile masters. They’re not used to seeing Jewish pride.
That an individual who claims that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they didn’t intermarry is supported here, and I’m atttacked, represents how low the people who call themselves Jewish have gone. I’m sure that most commentators here are half-Jews and have no concept of what Judaism is.
What a class act the converted shiksa is. I don’t oppose conversion but a lot of Rabbis have a problem with why people convert. Many Gentiles only convert for marriage and don’t take Judaism seriously. Your comment at the end is pure anti-semitic crap. The Jews don’t need a widening of the “gene pool.” The Jews were fine for thousands of years and didn’t need Gentiles to “help” their genes. Most real Jews share my opinions so I guess we’re all “jerks.”
Actually bardemu the Nazis are pro-intermarriage because it’s destroying the Jewish community. You sound like you agree with them. I obviously oppose intermarriage so I don’t agree with the Nazis. Many Rabbis and Jewish leaders have made comparisions between the Holocaust and intermarriage so my opinions are not radical.
Contrary to popular beliefs there are a lot of Jews that agree with me. Not all Jews lving in America are self-hating pro-intermarriage promoters . You people are having a lot of success in destroying the Jewish community but we won’t go down without a fight!
Just for the record, my cousin and her Irish-American husband are raising their kids 100% Jewish. So there.
To the guy who thinks I’m a “goy”, try this scenario:
It’s Poland, 1939. There’s a knock on my door. It’s two German soldiers.
Soldier #1: Hello, we’re rounding up Jews today. We understand that your parents were Jewish.
Me: That’s true, they were. But I’m not, I don’t even believe in God. I’m an agnostic, or perhaps even a weak atheist.
Soldier #2: Oh, we’re sorry to have bothered you. Carry on.
Soldier #1: Have a nice day.
Being Jewish can mean just the cultural and ethnic part. Duh.
This SHIKSA converted and is proud to be Jewish. I almost didn’t because I had encountered a Rabbi and a couple of Jewish people that shared your crap attitude. Several years late, I finally converted- but it took a new congregation and Rabbi to understand your views don’t represent Jewish values.
Maybe widening of the gene pool will help balance out jerks like you.
Are you suggesting, Laurel, that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they were too ethnocentric and refused to assimilate?
I'm not going to dignify the above statement by dialoguing with you further. There's no point in it. I'll save my energy for people who listen.
xoL http://jewishyirishy.com
How dare anyone compare interfaith marriage- a union between two people- to the brutal, systematic massacre that murdered 6 million men, women and children. And get the facts right: another 5 million non-Jewish people were also slaughtered by the Nazis, aided by narrow-minded, intolerent bigots that use hurtful words.
The hate, resentment, bigotry, narcissism (shall I go on) that is espewed by Jewish people about their fellow man who marry those they love, is what is driving Jewish people away from their faith. Who wants to be part of a community that teaches hate? Cruelty? Judgement? Jewish people like you do not represent the Jewish values that I hold dear. Would you rather turn back the clock and have us all living in ghettos, oppressed, persecuted, thrown out of modern society? You know why “Judaism loses” in interfaith? Because of people like you who make it impossible to truly welcomed as part of the community.
There is no excuse for your comparison, or using the word Shiksa in such a demeaning way.
Yes, I can understand how you would find yourself in agreement with the Neo-Nazis and their theses. Comparing marriage of any type with the Holocaust, especially this week of Yom Ha'Shoah, is disgusting. I totally subscribe to Laurel's points above, but I would also like to point out, since I don't think anyone has done it yet, that in the Holocaust, Jews were actively murdered. There is no possible comparison with anything else.
if you represent the Jewish people like you think you do, o bitter previous poster, then I guess I don’t have much respect for the Jewish people either. at any rate, after your shrill ethnic purity rant I don’t have much respect for you at least.
The comments about intermarriage here are delusion to say the least. The fact is that all the studies have shown that intemarriage has drastically reduced the number of Jews. Fifty-years ago there were 5 million Jews in America and today the number is the same. Jews are the only group in this country that have had zero population growth. The reason is the high rate of intermarriage and it’s devastating effect on the Jewish community.
The Reform Movement is rapdily losing members and that is why now it requires spouses to convert before marriage. Their very liberal attitude toward Judaism has left them in shambles. On the other hand the number of Orthodox Jews is growing everday because their intermariage rate is practically non-existant and they have a high birthrate. This is what accounts for the higher Jewish birthrate in America.
Intermarriage doesn’t contribute to more Jews but to what I call the “Gentilization” of American Jews. These “Jews” celebrate Christmas and Easter and Jewish holidays without irony and have no idea why Israel is special to the Jews. I would rather have a small authentic Jewish community than a large one, where the “Jews” are actually gentiles masquerading as Jews.
I still stand by my statement that Hilter would be pro-intermarriage. I’ve been on neo-Nazi websites where there’s a lot of glee because Jews are marrying out and having non-Jewish children. There is opposition to Jewish men dating their “Aryan shiksas” but for the most part they take joy in the destruction of the Jewish people.
Are you suggesting, Laurel, that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they were too ethnocentric and refused to assimilate? So if the Jews intermarried in Germany they wouldn’t have been killed? I’m disgusted at your comments but I shouldn’t be surprised since you are the product of an intermarriage. You have no respect for Judaism or the Jewish people. You are only using Judaism to advance your career and because you think it’s more exotic than being a White Christian. I’m very upset right now so I will stop now before I really let you have it.
The numbers here are all wrong. While it's true that roughly one third of intermarried Jews produce self-identifying "Jewish" kids, it's also true that we're getting more kids overall.
Think about it, if 50-60% of Jews intermarry, that's 50% more homes, so if one third of those additional homes are "Jewish" the numbers aren't diminishing so fast.
It's also true that we'e jsut started to see that we can have a huge effect on that percetage with outreach (look at the Boston/SF studies) . In numbers, if we get to a place where 30% is 50%, and intermarraige continues to rise…. our numbers of "Jews" willa ctually rise. You might not like how it happens, but it's going to happen. Jewish births will rise in the next decade or two.
And also, Hitler was pretty totally opposed to Jewish intermarriage. Wasn't that the whole fucking point? Mongrelization? Dillution of the bloodline?
And also, the same kinds of numbers we see in intermarried homes are happening in secular Jewish homes as well. Assimilation has had a huge effect on how we identify, generation by generation. Lack of Jewish identity doesn't need intermarriage. It's doing just fine in the frat houses and corporate offices everywhere, even in all-Jewish worlds.
xoL http://jewishyirishy.com
As a rural Canadian (read: hinterland) Jew who DID find a nice Jewish girl to marry I offer the following re: intermarriage = nazism;
If all 6 million intermarried (can you immagine!) and 95% of the 1.3 children each of those couples had lost all connection with thier Jewish heritage…
6,000,000 x 0.05 x 1.3 = 390,000 more Jews our parents’ age who DO IDENTIFY…
Now assume a more realistic number of the 6,000,000 did NOT intermarry (pick your own reality here) and you can see how the numbers just dont add up.
Explain to me again how intermarriage is the same as genocide???
Wow, an anon with some sense. Someone get the person an account.
But seriously, since there seems to be an impasse, let's take that road. And other anonymous, lay off the personal slurs. For example, it's okay to say that Eli disgusts you, but not okay to call him disgusting Eli. And I think you should capitalize the D, too. Like it's his title: Disgusting Eli.
The fact is that Jews are intermarrying – for good or bad – thats what is happening. Furthermore if one does not compare it to mass genocide or browbeat all for not seeing the true horrible evil in it does not mean that they/we are not concerned.
All of you ultra anti intermarriage folks out there do you really think that the answer to ‘saving’ our people is going to be by calling all those that acknowledge, don’t feel disgust by it, or have done it, nasty names. That may or may not work in the sandbox – but I don’t really think its a solution for this slightly bigger problem. The fact that Mr. Raz acknowledges the issue and proposes to think about an inclusive solution on this one (cause what you ultra whatevers are doing aint working) should stimulate some positive discussion, not idiotic nazi comparisons.
A recent study just revealed that ABSTINENCE classes don’t work to stop horny adolesents from fucking – duh. Just like the nasty nazi comparisons won’t work in this situation either!
Denying that intermarriage is destroying the Jewish community is like denying that the Holocaust was bad for the Jewish people. This is an example of deep denial. Most Jews today are self-hating wimps who desperately want to be like gentiles and accepted by them. The result is widespread intermarriage. It describes people like disgusting Eli.
I was brought up as a Scottish-American Protestant by a single mother. It was only until my teens that my Grandmother told me her mother was originally Jewish and was forced to convert in secret by my Great Grandfather so that his largely German Christian hick farming community would accept them.
In that case intermarriage did wipe out a group of potential Jews. But it’s an extreme case from a long time ago. Intermarriage today is radically different. It’s about cultures coming together, without losing their unique characteristics. I hope…
Can someone then suggest a school where one can learn Hebrew. I’m interested more in the language and less about bible stories…
I think it’s true, that those who live in the hinterlands, and are disconnected with Jewish life and Jewish community more broadly in the diaspora and in Israel, are indeed unlikely to marry another Jewish person. It stands to reason. The less one socializes with Jews, the less one is likely to marry a Jew. The issue is this disconnection with Jews in the first place, not the logical result of outmarriage which follows.
In our parents’ generation, Jews living in very small communities — and there were many, being small businesspersons, at that time — would attend university or otherwise make their way to a major centre, to meet more Jewish people. But that generation was socialized as Jews. Today’s generation, living in the hinterlands, is very much assimilated, and its Jewish identity is quite notional. I think intermarriage, in such instances, is simply a logical conclusion.
"More than 70% of children of intermarriage don't identify as Jews"
With people like you representing Jews, I don't think we can blame them.
So what do you suggest for those of us in the hinterlands? Brooklyn mail order brides? Sheesh.
More than 70% of children of intermarriage don’t identify as Jews and 90% of their children lose all connection to their Jewish heritage. That results in millions of “lost” Jews because of intermarriage. Hilter would be pro-intermarriage because the result is the destruction of the Jewish people.
Intermarriage is a genocide? I think you need a dictionary, Skippie.
Both advocate the destruction for the Jewish people. Proud to be a bigot if it means being against the genocide of the Jews.
Tahl was asked to represent his generation's version of those definitions and also his own opinion.
Just because the particularist american 20- and 30somethings have made their "definitions" clear, doesn't make those definitions permanent. By defining our terms away from previous generations, we *are* grappling with the existence of a Jewish people.
Also– Tahl, thanks for speaking so clearly about intermarriage. I wish more people would agree with you, but I think your definition is quite radical.
Jessica
I agree, we’re meant to grapple with peoplehood, intermarriage and such issues. It seems millennialist to announce that, once and for all, these are dated debates we’re done with.
This is goofy…Mr. Raz can tell us what he’d like Jewish identity to become, or where he thinks, morally and historically, we might be headed, but to declare, with this degree of certainty, the future of Judaism is shockingly arrogant.
Since the 19th century, every generation of Jews has declared a new path, be it Lutheran Baptism, Soviet Socialism or American capitalism and assimilation, yet their predictions always prove incorrect or unsatisfying.
Get over yourself.
Anonymous is a bigot and is probably married to a platypus.
Tahl Raz is an idiot and probably married to a shiksa.
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