Chagall in Postville

Where does one even begin? Chabad has two streams within it - conventional Chabad and the Meshichtim.These streams are in conflict with each other and only one believes that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is and remains, even now after his death, the messiah. Conventional Chabad does not believe this.

If Chabad does in fact believe that gentiles have "animal" souls, they sure have a weird way of showing it. A number of Chabad programs are aimed at ameliorating the lives of Jews and non-Jews alike. In Montreal, before we moved in, our office space was used for a drug rehab program run by Chabad - most of the participants weren't Jewish. The Rabbis involved spoke out against drug abuse at area schools - most of which weren't Jewish. The recently deceased Holtzbergs also engaged in similar work with non-Jews in Mumbai.

Blaming Chabad for the actions of the Rubashkins is like blaming all the Jews for the crimes committed by Elliot Spitzer or Ivan Boesky or Michael Milken or Bugsy Siegel.  SoAgriprocessors had a powerful PR machine to help it cover its tracks and Chabad, along with everyone else, was fooled. So what? That happens every day and it doesn't mean that those fooled are complicit in the underlying crimes.

I get it though. Valley doesn't like Orthodox Judaism and loves to point out its imperfections. That's good! That's how we evolve I suppose. I wonder though, when he is going to turn his scathing drawing pen on the other things that ail modern Judaism? It can't just be all Traditional Judaism and Establishment Jewish organizations...

I'm waiting.

Doop dee doop.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

So Agriprocessors had a powerful PR machine to help it cover its tracks and Chabad, along with everyone else, was fooled.

Everyone was fooled, ck? Were you fooled? Or did you become a vegetarian years ago when Shmarya  broke this story? How come you weren't fooled, ck? Was that possibly because unlike Chabad and the OU/National Council of Young Israel, you weren't financially affected by this situation? Could that be part of it?

this cartoon is just internal anger masquerading in current events. dont get me wrong...these guys deserve all they get, but  eli is just looking for excuses to work out his anti religious anger.

im all for a bit of sarcastic attacking, but it should be a bit responsible. chabad does good work, and it has just suferred a big loss in mumbai. i think you should cut them some slack and stop treating chabad like they own agriprocessors or these lawbreakers as if they are the most immoral people in the world. they arent. they broke some rules on slaughter, and some stuff on workers rights. its bad, ok. really bad. but chill out. people are dying in droves in africa. jews are being bombed in sderot. bombs are goin off and killing innocents everywhere. chill out, and point your moral crusade compass somewhere less petty.

both he and dk employ all the tactics and subterfuge on the unsusepecting jewcy public as the rabbis they so openly hate.

i am so sick of DK and his guilty crew bangin on about anything
wrong they can find about ortho jews. its just so boring. dk we are
sorry that you got involved with frummers about 100 years ago or
whenever it was. we are sorry that you were taken advantage of by them.
we are sorry, we are sorry, we are sorry. most of all we are sorry that
you cant just get over it and recognise that the biggest problem in all
of this ... was you. you are the one that bought what they told you.
stop trying to prove they were insincere. they arent. or dishonest.
just focus on your own weakness, and focus any anger you have back on
yourself.

in other words....for fucks sake, just move on.

please stop wasting our time. pay for therapy like a normal person, and use your tremendous talents as writers and artists to actually contribute something.

free your minds boys... its time to move on.

jeez. 

but chill out. people are dying in droves in africa. jews are being
bombed in sderot. bombs are goin off and killing innocents everywhere.
chill out, and point your moral crusade compass somewhere less petty.

We can't change that. What we can change is ourselves and our own community. This is the essence of the dominant strain of quiescent Judaism. To defend our own behavior because others are worse -- even much worse -- is to deny everything positive about the message of Judaism, either secular, liberal, traditional, or haredi.

If we are to follow your logic, we should not be upset about the bleaching and beatings of Modern Orthodox women by haredim in B'nai Brak and Jersualem, because there are acid attacks on women in Islamabad and honor killings in the Muslim  world. But that is not our primary responsibility.  Our primary responsbilitly is to stop the harassment of our own women by our own fundamentalists. Not brush it off because there is much worse. 

i am so sick of DK and his guilty crew bangin on about anything
wrong they can find about ortho jews. its just so boring. dk we are
sorry that you got involved with frummers about 100 years ago or
whenever it was. we are sorry that you were taken advantage of by them.
we are sorry, we are sorry, we are sorry. most of all we are sorry that
you cant just get over it and recognise that the biggest problem in all
of this ... was you.

No. You and yours are sorry I won't shut up. The kiruv movement and "teshuvah revolution" has grown exponentially since I was a young man, and they use the same deceptive, revisionist, and seductive methods to indoctrinate new recruits. Even worse, they now have entered the public schools system, with over 250 clubs strong. You are not sorry at all. You are armed to the teeth with money and backing, but a few educated critics are revealing who you really are, what you really want, and how you operate. And some people are beginning to take notice. And the educated consumer is your worst prospect.

Why don't you people just get the fuck out of our public school system and take your lactose-laden free pizzas with you? In the off-chance you don't want to do that, how about some transparency about who you work with and partner with? Parents and high school students have a right to know who is in their kids' schools, and what their agenda is.

And big kiruv is working to infiltrate the Hillels, when sometimes their actual aim is not just to get students to be Orthodox, but rather, to get them to drop out of their college and attend haredi yeshivas and seminaries which depise the western world in its entirety. Oh, goodie -- they don't blow shit up.

Aren't they so wonderful.

>>>Where does one even begin? Chabad has two streams within it - conventional Chabad and the Meshichtim.These streams are in conflict with each other and only one believes that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is and remains, even now after his death, the messiah. Conventional Chabad does not believe this.<<<

That is absolutely false.

No Chabad leader of any stream has ever stated the Rebbe is not the messiah.

The issue has always been one of control and obedience.

The Chabadniks who wave yellow flags and declare publicly the Rebbe is the messiah reject the leadership of the other faction, and vice versa.

But there is no theological difference past the efficacy of public affirmations and pronouncements.

Beside that, the Rubashkins are in the "messianist" camp, as are many Postville Chaabdniks.

 >>>If Chabad does in fact believe that gentiles have "animal" souls, they sure have a weird way of showing it. A number of Chabad programs are aimed at ameliorating the lives of Jews and non-Jews alike. In Montreal, before we moved in, our office space was used for a drug rehab program run by Chabad - most of the participants weren't Jewish. The Rabbis involved spoke out against drug abuse at area schools - most of which weren't Jewish. The recently deceased Holtzbergs also engaged in similar work with non-Jews in Mumbai.<<<

Well, David, despite the spin you are paid to craft, Chabad does believe gentiles have animal souls – but not divine, Godly souls.

It's right there in the Tanya, that book you have never read but rush to defend.

As for any good works Chabad does with non-Jews, you first need to separate out those good works paid for by government grants and the like.

Drug treatment centers get lots of government money, on the condition they serve everyone.

Because the Jewish population is much smaller than the gentile population, most clients of these Chabad drug treatment programs will be non-Jewish.

 >>>Blaming Chabad for the actions of the Rubashkins is like blaming all the Jews for the crimes committed by Elliot Spitzer or Ivan Boesky or Michael Milken or Bugsy Siegel.  SoAgriprocessors had a powerful PR machine to help it cover its tracks and Chabad, along with everyone else, was fooled. So what? That happens every day and it doesn't mean that those fooled are complicit in the underlying crimes.<<<

Please.

You are either willfully misrepresenting the facts or wholly ignorant of them.

Chabad is STILL defending Agriprocessors and the Rubashkin, even now, after all the revelations., charges and indictments.

Chabad has a tax deductible legal defense fund set up from Sholom M. Rubashkin. It is raising money for him across the US and Canada.

Fooled?

Please.

 >>>I get it though. Valley doesn't like Orthodox Judaism and loves to point out its imperfections. That's good! That's how we evolve I suppose. I wonder though, when he is going to turn his scathing drawing pen on the other things that ail modern Judaism?<<<

Pathetic.

Eli Valley has long done exactly that.

The fact is, David, you love Chabad because Chabad loves right of center Israeli politicians – the same politicians you support.

But voting Netanyahu (or right of Netanyahu)  should not earn one a free pass for racist theology – a theology scholars believe influenced Agriprocessors' crimes.

dk: I stopped eating meat because of the schita I witnessed at Agriprocessors which was brought to light by PETA. I felt that I could not trust that hashgacha of any Rabbi that considered Agriprocessor's meat kosher,  and today, pretty much every shochet considers it kosher despite everything. So I stopped eating meat. And I love meat. I'm Moroccan after all. Depriving me of something I love is not something I take very lightly. I'm more than a little pissed at the Rubashkins. The horrific labor violations that further came to light really cemented my position. No meat for me - and I'm not happy about it at all. As for the rest of your narishkeit Duvidle, nothing on this God's green earth is black and white. Nothing. Your world view is flawed because it totally lacks any nuance. No subtlety. You're as subtle and nuanced as cholent. Or chrain.Your criticism would be so much more valid if it contained any balance - then you'd have to be taken seriously. As it is, you are easily dismissed as a crank with a chip on his shoulder. This is good advice Duvidle. Believe me.

As for you Shmarya... we've known each other a long time. I knew you back in the day and while you were a different person, you were then, as you are now, a source of great inspiration and respect. But you were a leader then and I was a mere follower. You didn't really know me so well and so permit me to make a number of comments.

 "No Chabad leader of any stream has ever stated the Rebbe is not the messiah."

True. But that doesn't contradict what I said though. You're talking about public pronouncements that take shlom ha bayit and political realities into account, and I'm talking about actual beliefs.

"The issue has always been one of control and obedience."

I never said otherwise. Chabad is a massive organization and it seeks to maintain internal cohesion. For better or for worse, that's what massive ideologically based organizations do.

"The Chabadniks who wave yellow flags and declare publicly the Rebbe is the messiah reject the leadership of the other faction, and vice versa. But there is no theological difference past the efficacy of public affirmations and pronouncements."

If I told you that a number of Shlichim have told me differently, would you call me a liar? Well, a number of well regarded Shlichim have indeed told me differently.

"Well, David, despite the spin you are paid to craft, Chabad does believe gentiles have animal souls – but not divine, Godly souls. It's right there in the Tanya, that book you have never read but rush to defend."

The Tanya also believes that Jews have animal souls. Only the complete tsadik has transcended his animal soul completely. And for the record, I've read the Tanya. Cover to cover. I am not a Chabadnik by any means and I not a follower or supporter of Hassidic Judaism - to put it mildly. As for the "spin" I am paid to craft, I have no idea what you're talking about Shmarya. You ought to know better than to make statements like that, that have absolutely no basis in any kind of reality. I'll let it slide though. I know this is an emotional subject for you and sometimes we allow our emotions to get the better of us.

As to Chabad's legal defense fund for the Rubashkins - what's so wrong about that? I think it's more than a little misguided, but everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence, no matter how heinous the crimes they are accused of. That's one of the cornerstones of our legal system. It also just goes to show how delusional Rubashkins' supporters are - the town of Postville is filled with evidence of their malfeasance. But again, everyone is entitled to a strong and vigorous defense, and while I sure as hell won't be ponying up any of my hard earned shekels, I don't begrudge anyone the right to spend their money any way they like.

"The fact is, David, you love Chabad because Chabad loves right of center Israeli politicians – the same politicians you support. But voting Netanyahu (or right of Netanyahu)  should not earn one a free pass for racist theology – a theology scholars believe influenced Agriprocessors' crimes."

Oh Shmarya. How little you know me. Why are you so presumptuous? I've never voted for Likud or any remotely right wing party and what I think of Netanyahu is not very nice to say. In the last Israeli elections, the first I have ever voted in, I voted for the Ethiopian list. I love Chabad for the same reasons I love you and I love DK and I love all my little yiddles. I like to see the good in (almost) everyone and on the balance of things, Chabad has done more good than bad. I'd be the last one to say they are perfect however so please don't try to paint me as some kind of uni-dimensional apologist. Remember, I'm all about the subtlety and the nuance - and I miss my meat like a fat kid misses his cake.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

ck, when you write a post declaring how I oversimplify everything and life sure is more complacated that I make it out to be, you might not want to bring point after point of agreement with me, even as you declare how I am wrong about everything, except, apparently, all topical specifics you feel like mentioning.

 You might want to instead say, "I disagree with you here and here, and in fact think such and such because....," or something to that effect, and list actual points of disagreement/"nuance." Just a suggestion, ck.

...in that gold lamé jacket there Kelsaleh

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

I love the juxtaposition at the top of Eli yawning in black and white with his eyes closed next to Craig in his sunglasses and technicolor Tommy Bahama t-shirt.

David –

 >>> "No Chabad leader of any stream has ever stated the Rebbe is not the messiah."

 The next four are Godly souls.

The gentile only has that life-giving soul, and it comes from a different, lower, more base place than ours does. And it is wholly evil.

Animals also have a nefesh, and they also lack Godly souls.

In other words, Eli Valley is right.

>>>As to Chabad's legal defense fund for the Rubashkins - what's so wrong about that? <<<

Ask them. Chabad hid its connection to the fund.

And then we have the issue of giving tax deductions to contributors.

>>>I've never voted for Likud or any remotely right wing party and what I think of Netanyahu is not very nice to say.<<<

Conceded. 

Now do both of us a favor and call Charles, okay?

Thanks… 

Is actually a real Hawaiian shirt that I brought back from Hawaii!

about this. in that we should not brush  off Jewish shortcomings because there is much worse going on.

my point is that your fervor in persuing those that think and feel differently to you about Judaism smacks of "the lady doth protest", and that i would expect you to be more vocal about things that are bad and not focused on chareidi shortcomings. 

its your vehemence and frustration that i find evocative. keep on hatin... im sure you will, but your problem is much more to do with what happenned to you, than it is to do with whats happening to anyone else. you were young. you listened and didnt question. you were told things by people who think differently than you. then you grew up and changed your mind.

i know a lot of baalei tshuvah that feel that they didnt get the whole picture when they were coming in to ortho jud. and they question their involvement as they get older. and most stay in. and some move out.

but i think that a lot of people feel that way about college, about medicine, being a lawyer, being married, having kids etc. they were one person at one time and x made sense. now they are older, different and it doesnt make sense any more. thats whats really happening. not a bunch of deceivers running around a school trying to frum people up cos they are evil.

i guess i feel its a lot less to do with dishonesty (although I agree that there is dishonesty. there is. there is. there is., so please no long post ignoring my point and going on about dishonesty in kiruv method... please, please spare us that) and a lot more to do with being young and impressionable and changing as you get older and reevaluating and making new decisions, and trying new directions..

you cant ask kiruv to teach 18 year olds like they are 40, or demand that aish/ohr/neve represent their ideas in a way that they think are false. You can wish they would, but you cant expect or demand that they do any more than you can expect law firms to hang signs on their recruitment stands stating" sell your soul for 100 hours a week for $100k starting package". the statement would be true if they wrote it, but its only one aspect of being a lawyer.

by all means, please demand higher standards for education, and try to keep em honest, but dont criticise them cos they dont think the same as you. to do so is naive, smallminded and makes you as fundamentalist as those you attempt to critisize for being so.

anyway, i look forward to your scathing reply. lets try and keep it personable if we can. for me, this is an honest enquiry, not a sniping match.

ck,

My nephew is in Chabad, and he toes the party line. Over the past several years, I've been told,

1. Jews and Gentiles are separate species.

2. A Jew is an emanation of God, and has eternal life inherently. He/she has to be irredeemably evil to forfiet it. A Jew's role is to bring "godliness" into the world.

3. A gentile's purpose is to keep order in the world. He/she has an animal soul, and does not automatically get to survive after death. In order to gain eternal life, a gentile has to do something extraordinary, like save a Jewish life.

In short - it's almost impossible for a gentile to gain eternal life, and almost impossbile for a Jew to lose it.

Apparently, God grades on a curve.

I should also mention that while he insists that Meshichists aren't real Lubavitchers and never were (he's a BT, and his Chabad sponsors sent him to the most anti-Mehsichist FFB yeshiva in their system), he also once told me, "Every Lubavitcher both believes and doesn't believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach." There's obviously a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance - and I don't think it's just him.

PBS' Religion & Ethics Newsweekly had a segment this past weekend about
Chabad, in which they interviewed Krinsky about the Meshichist movement; he was evasive and non-committal: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/episode-no-1214/cover...

by all means, please demand higher standards for education, and try to keep em honest, but dont criticise them cos they dont think the same as you. to do so is naive, smallminded and makes you as fundamentalist as those you attempt to critisize for being so.

It depends on what. You are correct that I may be just as rigid in demanding that literalism be jettisoned when conflicting with science, and take a strident line on issues which conflict with broad western values and beliefs. And many of these can be proven a lot better than conflicting religious beliefs. But I am often insisting that people take notice of these behavors and beliefs. Because they are targeted by outreach groups, they should know what they really stand for.

1 The comic isnt even that well drawn.

2 Watching y'all wave your e-cocks at each other like this is boring. 

yawn-hucksters still trying to make a career out of Postville. Real Tikkun Olam would be using all of the proceeds Mr Valley makes from his cartoons to assist the unemployed of Postville, but Mr valley is far more likely to us the proceeds for cigarettes, whisky and tanning booths

Herbert Kaine is right. I happen to know that Eli is in fact a worthless layabout shikker who smokes constantly (no-name menthols!). Not only that, he actually farmed out the production of that comic to Chagall himself, to whom the shameless Valley refused to give credit.

And he soaks up the rays in a tanning bed he shares with Leinoff!

Make a cartoon about that, smart guy! 

Eli and I had big plans for the proceeds from this comic. He was able to buy a week's worth of groceries, including a pack of Bubblicious for me.

Its obvious you (the
comic artist) are against Orthodox Judaism for one reason or another.
Therefore there is no point in trying to say you are wrong and
completely ignorant because you are comfortable in your ways and such
statements would only fuel your anti Jewish fire. I'm not a Lubavitch Chasid but I can take one thing from Chabad that isn't even really Chabad but a mitzvah of the Torah and that is Ahavas Yisroel.
No matter what a Jew does or says to me I should love him. Sounds easy
until you run across Jews making comics like this. I wonder how many
Non Jews have seen this comic and I wonder what they now think about
Judaism because lets face it a Non Jew isn't going to read in between
the lines of Non religious, Non Chassidic, Non Chabad.
A Jew is a Jew. This comic belongs at the Iranian Holocaust Denial
conference. Did I cross a line to compare you to those comic artists?
Well there was no line when you compared Postville to the Holocaust. I don't condone what was done in Postville and in fact I refuse to buy their meat because of it. With that aside you have perverted Jewish values as well as Chabad
values and many uneducated people will believe what you say even though
you are as equally uneducated. You have no understand of the Tanya what
so ever or that of what a G-dly
soul and an Animal soul really mean. I guess if you are five years old
with your A B C apple bears and cat coloring book, the word animal is
what you see at the Zoo. This is not what it is in Tanya at all. The
Animal soul represents our emotions and our G-dly
soul represents the ability to overcome those emotions. When I drive
down the freeway and I see a billboard for a Porn Convention then a
billboard for a Casino, then a billboard for some indecent TV program I
think of the animal soul. Which is what tells us "if it feels good it
must be good" The world is in a state of indecency and lust for power,
money, sex, and fame. That is the animal soul. Its not that non Jews
are at the level of Cows (and Cow is really yummy by the way) and
Chickens (mmmm good). Its that they tend to follow their emotions because its easy.

As far as other people saying Gentiles aren't guaranteed eternal
life, that is a wrong information as well. It says explicitly that if a
Non Jew follows the 7 Noahide Laws they go to heaven. Its us that have 613 to worry about. 

CK has already explained all the Good Chabad
does so I don't need to. I just thought you should know that you don't
understand Tanya and that your comic entices Anti Antisemitism. Good
Luck though with your mission, whatever it is.

I can see it now! A Web site full of assinine commentary aimed at the growing Internet savvy Jewish Grandmother demographic! We'll write about how much happier retirees are in Israel than they are in Boca, or give advice on how to disrupt the personal lives of one's intermarried grandchildren - the one's that are married that is...We can add in political commentary by noted neocons and give Abe Foxman a regular column - Bubbe's LOVE Abe Foxman, and maybe a This Week in Hadassah feature... It's brilliant and we will make a killing!! Thanks Eli Valley! Thanks Jewcy! I'll make sure to send 10% of the proceeds to hungry people...

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I will blog at Bubbe-licious.com

Terrific.  Listen, while you guys are arguing there are a bunch of freaked-out Iowans who've watched their town get destroyed in ten years and are now wondering what they're going to do for Christmas and beyond.  This, to them, is now the meaning of "Jew".  Are you going to do anything to help them, or are you going to keep sitting there and arguing?

Again... those Iowans were on the ground. They saw the influx of illegals into their town. They took their money when they paid rent and bought groceries and gas and everything else. I havevery little sympathy for them and rather than blame the Jews they ought to look in the mirror to see who it was exactly that aided and abetted the Rubashkins.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

Its not that non Jews are at the level of Cows (and Cow is really yummy by the way) and Chickens (mmmm good). Its that they tend to follow their emotions because its easy.

As far as other people saying Gentiles aren't guaranteed eternallife, that is a wrong information as well. It says explicitly that if a Non Jew follows the 7 Noahide Laws they go to heaven. Its us that have 613 to worry about. 

I'm sorry, but no. If you choose to disagree, based on sources other than the Tanya, that's your prerogative, but it has been explained very clearly to me by someone in Chabad that this is not what Chabad teaches - and I suspect it's in line with what most frum Jews believe.There is an attitude of superiority inherent in the belief system.

And, for the record, Eli is not against Orthodoxy. But I am.

"Again... those Iowans were on the ground. They saw the influx of illegals into their town. They took their money when they paid rent and bought groceries and gas and everything else. I havevery little sympathy for them and rather than blame the Jews they ought to look in the mirror to see who it was exactly that aided and abetted the Rubashkins."

You must be joking.  Half the town wanted to toss them out and keep struggling along from the start, because they behaved so miserably when they arrived.  I must say, it's remarkably hard to make enemies of Iowans, but somehow these people managed it at record speed.  Nor are they opportunists.  Iowan culture has a very dim view of that kind of behavior. They did an EXTRAORDINARY amount of Christian soul-searching to determine that they should look at the positive and try to welcome these people, although in the last several years many of them were driven to abandon their own town.  The one the Rubashkins pissed all over.  

You know, some of us in the rural Midwest are working pretty hard to undo the damage the Rubashkins and the rest of those frummy crooks did. As far as these people are concerned, that's what Jews are, and I don't blame them for not wanting any part of more dealings with us.  Your attitude is unbelievably unhelpful, and in two years, when antiSemitism rises with the economic woes, you're going to be absolutely oblivious and stupidly defensive about the way your attitude contributes.  For shame. 

I'm sorry, but no. If you choose to disagree, based on sources other
than the Tanya, that's your prerogative, but it has been explained very
clearly to me by someone in Chabad that this is not what Chabad teaches
- and I suspect it's in line with what most frum Jews believe.There is
an attitude of superiority inherent in the belief system.

And, for the record, Eli is not against Orthodoxy. But I am.

"I'm sorry, but no"

I can respect that you are a sheep. You either care not to research
this yourself or follow what one Jew says. Its beyond me that you are
basing the all Orthodox Judaism's stance on this issue on what ONE
Lubavitcher said. I think people will get a kick out of that at the
Shabbos Table.

As for superiority, that word is nothing but an inflated
ego and lack of humility. We simply have a bigger mission here on Earth
and that's why the Jews have such responsibilities while the Goyim have
7. 

There is quite a fine line between Goyim being on the same level as a cow, and Goyim not being on the same level as Yidden. 

I wont waste time arguing though, as the same Talmud that says
arguing shows lack of humility, is the same one that says a Goy who
follows the Noahide Laws has his share in the world to come.

Torah Jews don't Poskin from the Tanya. Its not Halachah. 

 And for the record I'm Anti Physics. You know why? Because I
know absolutely nothing about physics except for what this one Science
Major told me and I fear the unknown, therefore I am against it.

Don't worry though, because Hashem isn't anti you and when you realize it, he will welcome you back affectionately  

And as for the Iowans wanting Jews out of the town. Unless you are
a non Jewish Iowan who is writing on this blog your opinion is worth
about as much as an Iranian Rial which is 1.00 USD to 9,918 IRR. Lets
see a statistical (which aren't accurate anyway) survey done of 1,000
people from the town. Not some reported who spoke with 20 people. 

"There is quite a fine line between Goyim being on the same level as a cow, and Goyim not being on the same level as Yidden."

Could this really be what you mean? A fine line? Really? Saying that I am bovine is just about the same as saying that I am not Jewish?

I know, I know, it's just that Jews are weighted with greater responsibility than gentiles, not that they are better. Horseshit. I say it's racism, and I say to hell with it.

Anyway, even if this is what you truly believe, I'd keep it under my fine felt hat if I were you. Wouldn't want the cattle to get wind of it.    

Long Beach Chasid, keep it up.  Atta boy.  That's exactly the kind of attitude that makes you so unwelcome here.

Look, I understand that people who're steeped in an environment of "crime is no crime if it helps the Jews, and to hell with everyone who's not us" may have trouble believing that there are people in the world who are courteous, law-abiding, behave ethically, treat neighbors well without regard to creed, etc.   But Iowans are too polite and sensible to participate in the sort of baloney poll you propose.  You wouldn't understand.  Go watch Iowa Public Television's documentary about the place.  It redeems Steve Bloom's book.  Bloom, by the way, endlessly naive about you guys, was shocked when he went back a few years later and saw what the Rubashkins and their group had done to the place.  

I wasnt looking to be welcomed here, I was simply refuting disgusting lies written about Torah Observant Jews and their holy books. That is why my post count will never get above 3.

 Happy Chanukah to everyone.

There we go with that racism crap again. I don't know of any race that one convert into. I mean, I know you think you're pretty hot shit there Ismail - smarter than anyone else, smug and content in your perceived innate superiority. Does that make you racist? No. It makes you delusional. Me? I'm content with my simple faith and fully acknowledge how little I actually know.

What I do know is that ultimately the Tanya was a product of its times - seeing the continuing physical threat from the "bad" goyim and their "pogromy" ways as well as the nascent spiritual threat represented by the "good" goyim and their emancipation. The Tanya's rejection of all things goyish may have indeed been prescient given that less than 150 years after it was written, the national product of German emancipation physically anihilated more Jews than the Cossaks ever did.I could go on and on of course but I don't want to be seen as supporting some of the premises and teachings of the Tanya. But I do prefer a more nuanced discussion - none of this shrill "racism!" bullshit.

As for the Iowans - I feel for what the residents of Postville have gone through. But when a local business fucks up it's not the responsibility of the business owner's co-religionists to clean up the mess. That's just not the way it works and it is idiotic bordering on offensive to think otherwise.

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I blog at Jewlicious.com

Until you live in the rural midwest, jewlicious, save the judgments.  You underestimate very seriously how much it matters there to stand up and say, "We're very sorry, that's not what we're like, these were some bad apples", and then do something to back it up.  That's been crucial for Muslims in the midwest. These people aren't stupid, but they're pretty isolated, and we're well past the time when a guy could speak up in the diner and tell his friends they're idiots because he served with a Jewish guy from New York, and he [insert wonderful things about Mr. Mensch from NY].  So when anti-Semitism rises locally, they'll think of the Rubashkins, and shrug, and turn their backs.  Put in a mitigating factor like Jews showing up to right their brothers' wrongs -- because that's how these people see community responsibility -- and you'll likely see something else. 

In other words, you may not find it convenient to understand that your view from NYC is every bit as tiny and parochial as you presume Postville's to be  --  

"But when a local business fucks up it's not the responsibility of the business owner's co-religionists to clean up the mess. That's just not the way it works and it is idiotic bordering on offensive to think otherwise."

but your parochialism is demonstrated beautifully here. In a town of 2000 people a few hundred miles from any city, there is no such thing as a private, anonymous local storefront.  When such local businesses fuck up, as you say, it isn't the business fucking up; it's stupid Ed fucking up and fucking over the Garstens and the Niestadts and thirty or forty other people, and they'll have to forgive him personally and get over it, because Ed, fool though he is, is part of the community, and so's his family.  If it's a bunch of strangers -- rude strangers at that -- purporting to come in and save the town, then it's every bit as public and integral to the community as your rabbi is to yours.  And their fuckup isn't just a fuckup, it's a profound betrayal.  There is no reason at all to forgive these people, and you can bet they'll be profoundly suspicious of anything that looks or sounds like a Jew for the next 30 years in Postville.  Unless we give them reason to think that their experience was unusual.

You're also rude, by the way, in supposing that the only "way it works" is NYC's way, and that its "idiotic bordering on offensive to think otherwise."  They've had more than enough of rudeness from Jews in Postville.

So we don't have to wade through the forthcoming post, I believe Jewlicious is located in Israel, not NYC. That said, I think amy's point still stands.