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Bernard Lewis, Abe Foxman, Genocide, and ‘Genocide’
By Daniel Koffler / November 12, 2007
I want to underscore Josh's comments about Bernard Lewis' sinister complacency on the question of the Armenian genocide. Josh helpfully mentions the heroic campaign of Raphael Lemkin, the inventor of the term ‘genocide', to install the concept into international law. Josh is quite right that that the concept ‘genocide' picks out does not merely encompass its archetypal instance, the Holocaust, but any acts of a relevantly similar nature that are to be absolutely forbidden among civilized nations.
If you follow the Wikipedia article on Lemkin, you'll see that his struggle to have an international law banning genocide began in earnest in 1933, well before the Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jewish people had begun. In fact, the connection between Lemkin's conceptual invention and the crime Ottoman Turkey perpetrated against its Armenian population is not merely theoretical; the Armenian genocide and its aftermath were Lemkin's direct inspiration. As Samantha Power recounts in her excellent book A Problem from Hell, in March 1921, in a pleasant neighborhood of Berlin, Soghomon Tehlirian, a young Armenian man whose family had been slaughtered by the Turks and who had been conscripted into a revanchist band of assassins, gunned down Mehmed Talaat, the former Ottoman Minister of the Interior who oversaw the murder of one million Armenians and acted as the Turkish government's principal obfuscator on the international stage.
Lemkin, a linguistics student at the University of Lvov, read about Talaat's assassination and the events surrounding it in a newspaper. I'll let Power take over:
Lemkin was intrigued and brought the case to the attention of one of his professors. Lemkin asked why the Armenians did not have Talaat arrested for the massacre. The professor said there was no law under which he could be arrested. "Consider the case of a farmer who owns a flock of chickens," he said. "He kills them and this is his business. If you interfere, you are trespassing."
"It is a crime for Tehlirian to kill a man, but it is not a crime for his oppressor to kill more than a million men?" Lemkin asked. "This is most inconsistent." Lemkin was appalled that the banner of "state sovereignty" could shield men who tried to wipe out an entire minority. "Sovereignty," Lemkin argued to the professor, "implies conducting an independent foreign and internal policy…Sovereignty cannot be conceived as the right to kill millions of innocent people…."
Lemkin was torn about how to judge Tehlirian's act. On the one hand, Lemkin credited the Armenian with upholding the "moral order of mankind" and drawing the world's attention to the Turkish slaughter. Tehlirian's case had quickly turned into an informal trial of the deceased Talaat for his crimes against the Armenians; the witnesses and written evidence introduced in Tehlirian's defense brought the Ottoman horrors to their fullest light to date. The New York Times wrote that the documents introduced in the trial "established once and for all the fact that the purpose of the Turkish authorities was not deportation but annihiliation" [attn: Bernard Lewis - DK]. But Lemkin was uncomfortable that Tehlirian…had acted as the "self-appointed legal officer for the conscience of mankind." Passion, he knew, would often make a travesty of justice. Impunity for mass murderers like Talaat had to end; retribution had to be legalized.
The ironies here are numerous, and one I'll mention just in passing is that while the New York Times was not under any illusions about the nature of the Turkish atrocities as far back as 1921, the establishment press of 2007, following conventions of supposed objectivity that in general do more to throttle truth than disseminate it, can't quite seem to figure out what the fact of the matter is regarding the Armenian genocide.
The bottom line, pace Bernard Lewis, is that the crime of genocide was originally conceived to describe what Turkey did to the Armenians. Just as it is a priori that a meter stick is one meter long, so it is a priori that the Turkish mass-murder of Armenians was genocide, and a denial of this fact is not merely an expression of ignorance, and not even, strictly speaking, false. To say "there was no Armenian genocide" amounts to what the logical positivists called vocus flatus, a syntactical and seemingly articulate string of symbols that nevertheless is literally meaningless, due, in this case, to its containing an analytic inconsistency. "There was no Armenian genocide" is not a false sentence because it is not even a sentence. It's like trying (and failing) to refer to "the married bachelor."
One further irony that deserves notice is the role of Jews in alerting the world to what the Turks had done to the Armenians long before the Jews themselves were victims of a genocide, and how the profiles of Lemkin and others compare with cravenness of Abe Foxman and the ADL. Lemkin was not the first nor the most prominent Jew to assume the plight of the Armenians as his own. Henry Morgenthau, an emigrant from Germany to the US, was ambassador to Ottoman Turkey during the First World War, who began to plead with his superiors to come to the aid of the Armenians as early as February 1915. "There seems to be," Morgenthau wrote to Washington, " a systematic plan to crush the Armenian race." Power again:
Local witnesses urged [Morgenthau] to invoke the moral power of the United States. Otherwise, he was told, "the whole Armenian nation would disappear." The ambassador did what he could, continuing to send blistering cables back to Washington and raising the matter at virtually every meeting he held with Talaat. He found his exchanges with the interior minister infuriating. Once, when the ambassador introduced eyewitness reports of slaughter, Talaat snapped back: "Why are you so interested in the Armenians anyway? You are a Jew, these people are Christians…What have you to complain of? Why can't you let us do with these Christians as we please?" Morgenthau replied, "You don't seem to realize that I am not here as a Jew but as the American Ambassador…I do not appeal to you in the name of any race or religion but merely as a human being."
Morgenthau's efforts cast the issue rather starkly, I think. If the Anti-Defamation League cannot call genocide ‘genocide', for fear that to do so is impolitic, then the Anti-Defamation League does not need to exist. At the very least, Abraham Foxman and whichever other ADL officers are responsible for the organization's behavior on this matter should resign, not just from the ADL, but from public life entirely; whatever moral stature the ADL retains depends upon them doing so.
Lastly, we should not forget that Morgenthau's response to the Turkish Eichmann — for once the comparison is apt — was an American, not a Jewish response. Morgenthau was begged to "invoke the moral power of the United States"; if the government of the United States cannot be bothered to state the truth simply and forthrightly, then it has no such moral power.
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Let's see, so in a nutshell your argument is that since Armenians killed some of Ramil's family members 15 years ago, that made it ok for Ramil to chop off the head of an innocent Armenian who was attending a partnership for peace program with Ramil. Putting aside the fact that your allegation of Armenians killing Ramil's family members is complete fabrication, your argument is still nothing short of medieval barbarity.
This, of course, is not surprising given that you come from a country that universally views Ramil as a hero for chopping off the head of an Armenian while the Armenian is asleep.
Pls don't forget that during occupation of Gubadli Armenians killed many close relatives of Ramil Safarov (Ramil Safarov is from Gubadli region of Azerbaijan, occupied by Armenia). All those people were civilians, like many others killed by Armenian bands in all Karabakh and surrounding 7 districts.
I believe any nation on the earth can speak loudly about terrorism and genocide expect Armenians. Those people are responsible for most terrible crimes against civilians both in Karabakh and Western Anatolia. Plus, there is no other nation who has so many "heroes" who conducted terrible crimes against civilians than Armenians. May be only Serbs can be compared to them. Basically Armenians conducted the same type of massacres against Azeri civilians which couple years later Serbs did in Serebrinicha.
Morning Star, UK
January 26, 2008 Saturday
Feature – Holocaust hypocrisy
John Wight argues that governments commemorating the nazi Holocaust
this weekend are guilty of shocking double standards
by John Wight
Holocaust Memorial Day has been an annual event in this country since
2001, marked each year on the anniversary of Auschwitz's liberation
by the Red Army on January 27 1945.
It is sponsored by the British government and, besides a national
event, local events are held around the country sponsored by local
government and various religious and civic groups.
Among the millions of victims of the nazis were Jews, Gypsies, gays,
communists, trade unionists, political dissidents, the disabled,
mentally ill – and the Palestinians.
In fact, the Palestinians hold a unique place as the Holocaust's
forgotten victims, at least in the eyes of those charged with
maintaining the objective of colonising the Middle East in the
interests of the Western neoliberalism.
In short, the long-suffering Palestinians have been sacrificed upon
the altar of the West's continued blind support of that apartheid
state otherwise known as the state of Israel.
How else are we to interpret an event which elevates one group of
victims above the others mentioned and above the victims of other
genocides that took place during the same century as the nazi
Holocaust, namely the Armenian and Rwandan genocides?
Supporters of the current formulation of Holocaust Memorial Day, many
of them well meaning, point to the industrial scale of the genocide
of the Jews and others under the nazis as justification for the
exclusive nature of its commemoration. I wonder if the millions who
perished in either the Armenian or Rwandan genocides considered their
suffering and slaughter any easier to bear due to the manner in which
it was carried out?
Genocide is genocide, regardless of method, and to confuse means with
ends in this way is to diminish the suffering of the Armenians and
Rwandans who also suffered the unspeakable crime of genocide in our
recent history.
The undeniable reality – and one that cannot be ignored – is the fact
that a self-declared Jewish state, which was founded on the ethnic
cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, has manipulated the international
guilt which exists over the Holocaust in order to continue its
barbaric treatment of the four million Palestinians who are left and
currently living under a military occupation that grows ever more
severe.
This is a fact which must be recognised by all concerned with
ensuring that nothing like the genocide of the Jews or either the
Armenian or Rwandan genocides can ever take place again.
The use of Holocaust Memorial Day as a justification for the ongoing
crimes of occupation and ethnic cleansing in Palestine must be
challenged, no matter how difficult it may be given the huge
resources and influence of the zionist lobby and apologists for
Israel in the US and around the world.
In so doing, it is essential that we bear in mind that the Holocaust
was not the starting point of the nazi persecution of the Jews in
Europe. Rather, it was the culmination of a process which took place
over a decade.
It began with the slow but steady demonisation of the Jewish religion
and culture, then government-sanctioned attacks on their communities,
businesses and places of worship, then the implementation of
apartheid laws, followed by ethnic cleansing and the forced removal
of the Jews to specially designated ghettoes. The logical conclusion
of this process was the Holocaust.
It is an irony of history that the Palestinians are being subjected
to much the same methods of oppression today by the state of Israel
that were visited on the Jews by the nazis throughout the 1930s. It
is an irony that takes on the form of an ominous portent which we
ignore at potentially catastrophic cost.
Ultimately and, again, ironically, the only truly fitting tribute to
the millions of Jews, Gypsies, communists, gays and others who
perished in the nazi death camps over 60 years ago is to campaign for
Palestinian human rights today, understanding as we do that both are
inextricably linked.
Moreover, it is vitally important that we understand this link when
we consider then Israeli prime minister Golda Meir's chilling
statement in 1968 that "there are no Palestinians."
Presented as a statement of historical fact, it was in reality a
statement of intent and all socialists, trade unionists and people of
conscience and consciousness must act accordingly lest the
Palestinians are allowed to disappear into the night of history as
the state of Israel continues to exist at their negation.
Yes, by all means, an annual officially sanctioned event to remember
the millions of victims of all the genocides that have occurred in
our recent history should be held. But, for this event to have any
relevance, it must be linked to atrocities and gross human rights
violations that are still taking place today. Prime among those is
Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian land. Also falling into
this category would be Britain's role in the break-up of Yugoslavia
and the invasions and occupations or Iraq and Afghanistan, both
involving a catastrophic and needless loss of innocent human life.
Ultimately, the hypocrisy of a government which has blood on its
hands sponsoring any event designed to recognise the victims of
state-sanctioned slaughter is hard to stomach.
Finally, perhaps the last word should to Howard Zinn, a man who has
dedicated his life and work to unmasking the crimes of empire and
economic power in our world.
He said of Holocaust Memorial Day: "The memory of the Jewish
Holocaust should not be kept isolated from other atrocities in
history. To remember what happened to the six million Jews … serves
no important purpose unless it arouses indignation, anger, action
against all atrocities, anywhere in the world."
Morning Star, UK
January 26, 2008 Saturday
Feature – Holocaust hypocrisy
John Wight argues that governments commemorating the nazi Holocaust
this weekend are guilty of shocking double standards
by John Wight
Holocaust Memorial Day has been an annual event in this country since
2001, marked each year on the anniversary of Auschwitz's liberation
by the Red Army on January 27 1945.
It is sponsored by the British government and, besides a national
event, local events are held around the country sponsored by local
government and various religious and civic groups.
Among the millions of victims of the nazis were Jews, Gypsies, gays,
communists, trade unionists, political dissidents, the disabled,
mentally ill – and the Palestinians.
In fact, the Palestinians hold a unique place as the Holocaust's
forgotten victims, at least in the eyes of those charged with
maintaining the objective of colonising the Middle East in the
interests of the Western neoliberalism.
In short, the long-suffering Palestinians have been sacrificed upon
the altar of the West's continued blind support of that apartheid
state otherwise known as the state of Israel.
How else are we to interpret an event which elevates one group of
victims above the others mentioned and above the victims of other
genocides that took place during the same century as the nazi
Holocaust, namely the Armenian and Rwandan genocides?
Supporters of the current formulation of Holocaust Memorial Day, many
of them well meaning, point to the industrial scale of the genocide
of the Jews and others under the nazis as justification for the
exclusive nature of its commemoration. I wonder if the millions who
perished in either the Armenian or Rwandan genocides considered their
suffering and slaughter any easier to bear due to the manner in which
it was carried out?
Genocide is genocide, regardless of method, and to confuse means with
ends in this way is to diminish the suffering of the Armenians and
Rwandans who also suffered the unspeakable crime of genocide in our
recent history.
The undeniable reality – and one that cannot be ignored – is the fact
that a self-declared Jewish state, which was founded on the ethnic
cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, has manipulated the international
guilt which exists over the Holocaust in order to continue its
barbaric treatment of the four million Palestinians who are left and
currently living under a military occupation that grows ever more
severe.
This is a fact which must be recognised by all concerned with
ensuring that nothing like the genocide of the Jews or either the
Armenian or Rwandan genocides can ever take place again.
The use of Holocaust Memorial Day as a justification for the ongoing
crimes of occupation and ethnic cleansing in Palestine must be
challenged, no matter how difficult it may be given the huge
resources and influence of the zionist lobby and apologists for
Israel in the US and around the world.
In so doing, it is essential that we bear in mind that the Holocaust
was not the starting point of the nazi persecution of the Jews in
Europe. Rather, it was the culmination of a process which took place
over a decade.
It began with the slow but steady demonisation of the Jewish religion
and culture, then government-sanctioned attacks on their communities,
businesses and places of worship, then the implementation of
apartheid laws, followed by ethnic cleansing and the forced removal
of the Jews to specially designated ghettoes. The logical conclusion
of this process was the Holocaust.
It is an irony of history that the Palestinians are being subjected
to much the same methods of oppression today by the state of Israel
that were visited on the Jews by the nazis throughout the 1930s. It
is an irony that takes on the form of an ominous portent which we
ignore at potentially catastrophic cost.
Ultimately and, again, ironically, the only truly fitting tribute to
the millions of Jews, Gypsies, communists, gays and others who
perished in the nazi death camps over 60 years ago is to campaign for
Palestinian human rights today, understanding as we do that both are
inextricably linked.
Moreover, it is vitally important that we understand this link when
we consider then Israeli prime minister Golda Meir's chilling
statement in 1968 that "there are no Palestinians."
Presented as a statement of historical fact, it was in reality a
statement of intent and all socialists, trade unionists and people of
conscience and consciousness must act accordingly lest the
Palestinians are allowed to disappear into the night of history as
the state of Israel continues to exist at their negation.
Yes, by all means, an annual officially sanctioned event to remember
the millions of victims of all the genocides that have occurred in
our recent history should be held. But, for this event to have any
relevance, it must be linked to atrocities and gross human rights
violations that are still taking place today. Prime among those is
Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian land. Also falling into
this category would be Britain's role in the break-up of Yugoslavia
and the invasions and occupations or Iraq and Afghanistan, both
involving a catastrophic and needless loss of innocent human life.
Ultimately, the hypocrisy of a government which has blood on its
hands sponsoring any event designed to recognise the victims of
state-sanctioned slaughter is hard to stomach.
Finally, perhaps the last word should to Howard Zinn, a man who has
dedicated his life and work to unmasking the crimes of empire and
economic power in our world.
He said of Holocaust Memorial Day: "The memory of the Jewish
Holocaust should not be kept isolated from other atrocities in
history. To remember what happened to the six million Jews … serves
no important purpose unless it arouses indignation, anger, action
against all atrocities, anywhere in the world."
tell us all then…why did a bunch of non-turks orchestrate the murder of more than a million armenians and why won't you call it what it is…genocide? raphael lemkin did…as did many, many others, but you won't. that tells us all more than we need to know, thank you.
Who ever started with: "The only fact anyone needs to know" must be a used car salesman. He wishes to control how much we should investigate regarding Armen geno event. Only his spoon fed lies should be heard and no commonsense should be used in order to reach his desired result.
Whoever wrote the cr-p about the Turkish leaders being J-wish or d-nmeh seemed crazy at first, but seeing who is using it and how, clearly signals who is behind that balon-y
The only fact anyone needs to know is that the group of criminals known as the Committee of Union and Progress worked endlessly to remove all traces of the Armenian heritage, both human and physical, in the ancient Armenian homeland of eastern Anatolia. Why? Why would this gang of criminals, newcomers who weren't even Turkish, living in Salonika, be so angry about those who had lived in Anatolia for at least 4000 years? This is the third rail of the Armenian genocide story that no one has the balls to touch. According to reliable contemporary sources, in 1914, Ottoman Anatolia (w/ 10 million souls) was one quarter Greek, one quarter Turkish, one quarter Kurdish and one quarter Armenian. By 1923, the Armenian presence in the land where their ancient alphabet was born had been reduced by 90%, to approx. 200,000. Yet someone who clearly supports their actions, attempts to spew the tired old party line that this was the fault of the Armenians themselves, just as the Nazis blamed the Jews for their demise during the Holocaust. Sorry, but that kind of trick will not work anymore and to call it Armenian propaganda tells us exactly who you are. Fact is, the truth is well known by millions and millions of well informed people, scholars and historians, as well as by millions in Turkey itself, so no matter how many times you scream the lies, they are still lies and no one will take them seriously. Real and honest Turks know they are being smeared by those who want to bury the truth of the genocide, they know how and why their neighbors disappeared, so you can't lie to them. The only thing that keeps them from talking openly is a group of officials who insist on stiffling the truth and criminalizing it, but in private, many Turks will openly discuss their history with a sense of horror and shame for what took place there. Someone clearly wants Turks and Armenians to stay divided and is using well crafted lies to do it….divide and conquer….what a strategy. As in any criminal investigation, follow the money if you want to find the criminal…it is the same everywhere, including Turkey. Have no fear – the truth will win, it always does, because truth is intangible and eternal – it is elemental, like the wind and the sun, and from what I can see, that is what really scares you, so you will do anything to distract people from seeing it. But remember, just like gold, the truth is always there and will never ever change, never tarnish, never be compromised. Once you and others who deny the Armenian genocide realize this, then a new history will begin for everyone involved.
of any kind is an abomination. Turkish, Armenian, Azeri, Zionism and every other kind. Any ethnic kind, that is. Ethnic nationalism is irrational and has exactly zero redeeming quality.
A little bit of community-based nationalism is OK.
IMHO.
"Bernard Lewis, Abe Foxman, Genocide, and ‘Genocide’" is a shameful and totally one-sided article.
All that Raphael Lemkin knew about the Armenian slaughters was what he
had read in the biased press of his country. Christian nations accepted
at face value invented atrocity stories, as long as the victims were
fellow Christians, and especially when the killers were the hated
Turks. The fact that Lemkin prevented his intellect from digging deeper
showed what a biased individual he was, no different than the writer of
the above article. This writer has written: "The ironies here are
numerous, and one I'll mention just in passing is that while the New
York Times was not under any illusions about the nature of the Turkish
atrocities." Yet even Samantha Power, in her book that the writer
(Daniel Koffer) has cited that one of these New York Times articles
claimed that no reporter was allowed to travel into these regions of
the Ottoman Empire, and that reports were "altogether reliable." If so,
this means the reporters of the New York Times and all other newspapers
of Christian America and Europe (including Lemkin's country, Poland)
relied exclusively on secondhand accounts, which means "hearsay," the
kind no courtroom would allow as evidence.
Daniel Koffer would do well to combat his prejudices and to perform
more objective research; this young man may have specialized in
philosophy, but in order to tackle history in a credible manner, one
does not simply consult one side. (Especially if the one side involves
Wikipedia, which no serious person would consult, especially regarding
complex and controversial issues.)
There is another side to Samantha Power's book, which is examined at http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/samantha-power-hell.htm
We learn Power relied almost entirely on the New York Times' and
Ambassador Morgenthau's hateful propaganda, which was inexcusable. It
is unethical to report on history by resorting exclusively on accounts
that are totally hostile to one side.
An Armenian source informs that Soghoman Tehlirian had traitorously
left his Ottoman country to join the enemy Russians and eventually
Armenian bands led by those such as Antranik, who slaughtered hundreds
of thousands of defenseless Ottoman villagers, INCLUDING JEWS.
This means (besides the fact that Talat Pasha was far from this
killer's only Turkish victim) Tehlirian perjured himself as he was not
in his Ottoman hometown during the relocation of his family in 1915.
Half his family was in Serbia, he had no sisters, and the two people
who did die from his immediate family — his mother and one brother
(another brother had also joined the Russians, totally apart from
Tehlirian, which demonstrates how extensive was the treachery of
Ottoman-Armenians) — could well have died not en route, but from
famine and disease, as most of the resettled Armenians died. (Which is
the way most of the nearly 3 million other Ottomans died. More Ottoman
soldiers died of famine and disease than from combat.)
Andrew Goldberg's PBS show that was entirely funded by Armenians was an
exercise in pure propaganda. Note the detailed analysis debunking its
claims, utilizing non-Turkish sources, on http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/PBS-Armenian-genocide1.htm
Mr. Koffer should realize that there is nothing "sinister" about
Bernard Lewis. Bernard Lewis performed what any honorable person would
do (and what any professional historian MUST do), and hopefully Mr.
Koffer will one day learn from Bernard Lewis' example. In the 1960s,
Bernard Lewis was a genocide proponent, failing, as Raphael Lemkin and
Mr. Koffer, to consult anything but the widely available Armenian
propaganda. Once Prof. Lewis learned there was more to the story, and
in light of the credible new evidence he could not ignore, Lewis could
not stick with the falsehood that he was initially fooled into
believing.
Henry Morgenthau is not a credible source just because he was "Jewish."
There was a lot more to Morgenthau, and what exposes Morgenthau for the
dishonest man that he was happens to be Henry Morgenthau himself. His
private diaries and letters contradicted the hateful propaganda of his
book. (For one thing, Morgenthau was heavily beholden to his Armenian
interpreters and assistants as were nearly all other foreigners in the
Ottoman Empire.) Prof. Heath Lowry exposed the chicanery of Morgenthau
nearly twenty years ago in "The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story"
(Google it) and it is mind-boggling that any intelligent and honorable
person would still refer to Morgenthau, in this day and age, as a
reliable source.
One of the commentators pointed to author Franz Werfel as another
Jewish witness, but Werfel relied on the forgeries of Armenians (the
telegrams forged by Aram Andonian), as his friend, Rabbi Albert
Amateau, revealed. (Google it.) Werfel kept quiet after he learned he
had been fooled, to his shame, as he was afraid of the Armenians.
Alamity wrote on 11/12 that the Azeri contributor's quotes were cut and
paste "crap." This goes to show that Alamity, as so many others who are
emotionally involved, do not care for the truth. Shouldn't those quotes
be examined carefully? Why does Alamity want to discredit them as
"crap"? For example, the excerpts from MEN ARE LIKE THAT, the
reminiscences of an Armenian officer, present the rare and powerful
evidence that Armenia committed a real systematic extermination policy
circa 1920. How could any honorable person shove this under the rug?
Why didn't Samantha Power talk about this? She reportedly studied the
Armenian matter for seven years, and she is clearly not an
unintelligent person. She deliberately avoids the crimes of mass murder
committed by Armenians. What does that say about her integrity? Why
would anyone like Daniel Koffer choose to listen to such a dishonorable
person who values one group of people over another?
Politic / 17.11.2007 12:48
Composer-singer Elza Seyidjahan will represent Azerbaijani culture in state-level event.
The opening of monument in memory of victims of Khojali Tragedy, committed by Armenian Forces against civil Azerbaijanis in Khojali settlement of Daqliq Qarabaq in 1992, will be held on Novermber 18 in Holland. The representatives of World Azerbaijanis' Committee will also attend the event. Popular composer-singer Elza Seyidjahan will represent Azerbaijani culture in state-level event. According to M.Beyler, the organizers of the event in Holland are Ighdir turks.
Turkish rude nationalism, which as of late has also taken a highly religious tone, is no less dangerous than a criminal regime with an atom bomb. It is capricious and unreliable, and puts massive pressure upon the governments of both the USA and Europe to do what Turkey wants. And now, Capitol Hill and the US Government are being forced by Turkish threats and blackmail to yield to and appease the nationalistic and Islamic oriented government in Ankara. In turn, the final result is that human rights and moral principles — the fundamental values upon which the USA was founded — as well as the right to truth and justice are once again being sacrificed on the altar of practical politics. Is this what liberty, justice and democracy is about?
Turkish rude nationalism, which as of late has also taken a highly religious tone, is no less dangerous than a criminal regime with an atom bomb. It is capricious and unreliable, and puts massive pressure upon the governments of both the USA and Europe to do what Turkey wants. And now, Capitol Hill and the US Government are being forced by Turkish threats and blackmail to yield to and appease the nationalistic and Islamic oriented government in Ankara. In turn, the final result is that human rights and moral principles — the fundamental values upon which the USA was founded — as well as the right to truth and justice are once again being sacrificed on the altar of practical politics. Is this what liberty, justice and democracy is about?"National interests" that deny human rights, truth and justice are unjustifiable, as they are on based on ruthlessness and discrimination and serve little other than to justify denial. But how can this even be allowed? Can a crime against humanity ever be justified? The logical consequence of this is policy are the theories of Carl Schmitt — the legal National Socialist political scientist/theorist who justified the Night of Long Knives as the "highest form of administrative justice" in the Deutsche Juristen-Zeitung ("German Jurists' Newspaper") in 1934 — which maintain that only the strong deserve a place in the world. But to believe this exposes one's own nation, people or community — as well as democratic and moral principles — to the continual threat of destruction.
Those who fall in line with this argumentation legitimize past injustices committed and pave the way for future crimes — in the spirit of Carl Schmitt.
Genocide – extermination a race- is a political crime. Genocides are not committed by private individuals, but by the state itself. The reference to historians and historical science in regard to the Armenian Genocide is a tactical and spurious argument to relieve the world governments from the responsibility to act while simultaneously giving the perpetrators carte blanche. The proper reaction to political crimes is therefore only possible through political response — from the parliamentary houses, the politicians and the governments.
Whenever the US or France tackles the subject of the Armenian Genocide, Turkey likes to hold up the dark pasts of France and the USA as admonishment that they should not throw stones. But in doing so, Turkey purposely ignores one important aspect: In the USA it is legal to discuss and research the annihilation of the American Indian, and the discussion of the history of slavery is not forbidden. If Native Americans have a concern, they can legally and easily pursue their interest. In Turkey, on the other hand, it is the exact opposite: it is a national crime to discuss honestly the topic of the genocide. Not surprising in a land where the term 'Armenian' used as a derogatory invective and the few Armenians still remaining in their traditional and native homeland (perpetrator side soon gave the new name of Eastern Anatolia) are deliberately misused for propagandistic purposes.
Turkish rude nationalism, which as of late has also taken a highly religious tone, is no less dangerous than a criminal regime with an atom bomb. It is capricious and unreliable, and puts massive pressure upon the governments of both the USA and Europe to do what Turkey wants. And now, Capitol Hill and the US Government are being forced by Turkish threats and blackmail to yield to and appease the nationalistic and Islamic oriented government in Ankara. In turn, the final result is that human rights and moral principles — the fundamental values upon which the USA was founded — as well as the right to truth and justice are once again being sacrificed on the altar of practical politics.
Is this what liberty, justice and democracy is about?
Well, no matter what anyone here thinks, the reality is that the US, Turkey & Israel are basically the only countries out there who are gung-ho on denying the truth. And, I think we all have to ask 'why'. How on earth is it possible, especially in a country that has a Holocaust museum in its capitol city, with Hitler's words carved into the stone on the entry wall, that anyone – ANYONE – sitting a hundred yards away could or would deny this event was genocide??? There is something seriously wrong going on, but sadly – no one is willing to look behind the curtain….
Azerbaijani community of NY just received an official appology from the newspaper "V Novom Svete" for publishing photos of mutilated bodies of children killed in Khojaly and presenting them as victims of "armenian genocide". The editor in-chief said that the photos and the text were presented to him by his ethnically Armenian journalist, Eduard Pariyants, and that he didn't even think that someone could forge something like that and sink that low.
The newspaper now features an article by the editor, Michael Gusev, who appologizes to the public and condemns actions of newspaper's Armenian journalist. Actually, that article has a detail description of Khojaly Genocide (examples from various independent sources) and emphasizes that a member of U.S. Parliament's International Committee, Dan Barton, called on the Congress to recognize Khojaly events as a Genocide.
This newspaper is a Russian-language newspaper and so both articles were in Russian language. But soon, we will present the evidence of yet another Armenian forgery with the translation in English, along with the Armenian PBS documentary that portrays Azeri refugees, Azeri dead and Azeri cemetary as documentary scenes of Armenian victims.
This is the sickest act of Armenian diaspora and one of many forgeries that armenian nationalists try to present as facts to prove their so-called armenian "genocide".
Phantom, if you really speak Turkish, then you should understand it when I tell you that you are: Ogrash and Gizhdilakh.
Now, why won't you shut you hole if you have nothing to refute my arguments with? Nobody needs your useless 5 cents in every forum discussion.
I think it's cute the way you try to rationalize with this dude. You wrote this to him in your last post: "Here is one thing that you really need to think about and understand. Crimes against humanity should never be justified or denied, or bargained with. If such behavior is allowed, then the following cases can be also denied or ignored." When I read that I started busting out in fits of laughter. You have infinite patience. No disrespect to you, but what you're doing is like trying to lecture a turd that smelling bad is wrong.
Really? Armenians are sorry for what happened to innocent Azeris in Karabakh war? What a B.S. They are probably so "sorry" that they continue to occupy 20% of Azerbaijan and destroy Azerbaijani cultural monuments on occupied territories.
Yes, Azeri Genocide victims feel so much better now that some armenian on some website claimed that he feels sorry for what has heppened to Azerbiajanis. And meanwhile, Armenian nationalists (including you) and Armenian government continues to deny what happened in Khojaly. A typical Dashnak policy: to say one thing in public and do completely opposite in reality.
Do yourself a favor, look around and see that you have territorial disputes with every possible neighbor in the region: Georgia, Turkey, Azerbaijan. Dashnaks even have territorial claims against parts of Iran (Norhtern Iran) and parts of Southern Russia (Dagestan). The entire official policy of Armenians is based on creation of "Greater Armenia" from sea to sea (Black to Caspian).
Official Armenia doesn't even recognize Turkish borders. In Proclamation of Independence of Armenia official Turkish territories are called: "Western Armenia". And this how you back stab a country that was among the first ones to recognize Armenia's independence after collapse of USSR.
Your defensive behavior regarding Khojaly Genocide is even more pathetic. You are so afraid when the subject is being brought up and the only pathetic reply that you can come up with is: Azeris massacred themselves. And this denialist behavour continues even after 5 U.N. resolutions, condemnation from European Union and every possible country in the world (including U.S. State Department), first hand witness accounts from journalists from all over the world, numerous books and newspaper articles, condemnation of your government's denialist behavior and events falsification from Human Rights Watch group, photos, videos and so on and so on.
You are nothing more than an ignorant racist. You are just so hysterical right now because you understand that Azeris and Turks finally woke up and decided not to be silent any more and are starting to seriously oppose and put an end to your filthy propaganda lies. The same lies as the ones where you publish photos of massacred kids in Khojaly as victims of Armenian "genocide".
Did our Azeri friend file an appeal after he rested his case?
I feel sorry for you for not recognizing sarcasm and irony, but I guess you are not old enough to know such things.
Here is one thing that you really need to think about and understand. Crimes against humanity should never be justified or denied, or bargained with. If such behavior is allowed, then the following cases can be also denied or ignored.
Turkey and Azerbaijan by their actions created an athmosphere where now anything they claim or complain about is automatically suspect. Turkey never demonstrated any national honor of recognizing Pre-Republic era crimes, and now Azerbaijan is following the same practices. You are making it obvious by showing us how one sided and brainwashed you are with your hysterical postings.
I can post tons of links and articles here where Armenians do condem crimes that happpened against innocent Azeris during Karabakh war, I'm sure you can find them if you do some searching. But you will be hard pressed to find anything from Turks or Azeris condeming Azerbaijan for crimes against Armenians and other minorities. The saddest thing is that Turkey and Azerbaijan created two nations of ignorant uninformed people, now that is also a crime against humanity.
If you want the world to be fair to you, be fair to everyone, even your enemies.
Now, be fair to all of us and stop posting things that do not directly address the issues of these posts.
And Turks massacres pomegranades.
Don't forget, we've also massacred billions of apricots and went so far as to even eat them. That too would be a Genocide according to our resident Azeri cutandpaster.
Armenians schemed and organized the Sumgayit and Baku pogroms. Armenians are to blame for everything. Even for Safarov's murder of his fellow officer with an axe while the victim was asleep.
How about this?
over the years Armenians have killed 20 billion Chinese, Russians, Persians, Turks, Poles, Czechs, Azeris, Lebanese, Colombians and even Indonesians. Not only did they massacre them, they also mummified each one of them and sent them to the moon!
Damn, now I wrote this, I feel relieved. My racist impulses have been finally satisfied for the day.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/18.2/images/baer_fig01a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/18.2/baer.html&h=300&w=400&sz=25&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=CB1kCRgKpvPT7M:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddonme%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
Did you take your medication today? Does your Mom know you are typing away a lot lately? Anyway, just take a deep breath hold it for as long as you can and then exhale through the mouth, repeat it thrice (for you 4 times in two sets).I am serious.
OK, do you feel a little better? Now, lets tackle this subject for the Azerianth time (that means a lot of times). Very s l o w l y ~ you can do it.
Are you saying Armenian genocide is worthy of the genocide label if and only if Azeri, Turkish, kurdish, Punabish, Swahilish,Geejhish genocides are labeled as such too, Correct? Am I with you so far- rather, are you with me so far? Fair enough? no problems. right?
Therfore, is it safe to assume with your permission of course, that if all other genocidesss are not given the "genocide" label, therfore Armenians should not have that distinction either. Correct?
Take a crack at it…Break a leg kido.
It's about Armenian Genocide Deniers who deny Khojaly Genocide and attrocities of Armenians against Azeri, Kurdish, Jewish and Turkish civilians in Ottoman Empire and in Azerbaijan.
From the court documents of Sumgayit pogroms hearings (witness accounts):
I remember another guy really well too, he was also rather fair-skinned. You
know, all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark, both
their hair and their skin. And in contrast with them, in addition to the grey-
eyed one, I remember this one fellow, the one l took to be a Lezgin. I
identified him. As it turned out he was Eduard Robertovich Grigorian, born
in the city of Sumgait, and he had been convicted twice. One of our own. How
did I remember him? The name Rita was tattooed on his left or right hand. I
kept thinking, is that Rita or "puma," which it would be if you read the word
as Latin characters instead of Cyrillic, because the Cyrillic "T" was the one
that looks like a Latin "M." When they led him in he sat with his hands behind
his back. This was at the confrontation. He swore on every holy book, tried to
put in an Armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion, and
told me that I was making a mistake, and called me "dear sister." He said,
"You're wrong, how could I, an Armenian, raise my hand against my own, an
Armenian," and so on. He spoke so convincingly that even the investigator
asked me, "Lyuda, are you sure it was he?" I told him, "I'll tell you one more
identifying mark. If I'm wrong I shall apologize and say I was mistaken. The
name Rita is tattooed on his left or right hand." He went rigid and became
pale. They told him, "Put your hands on the table." He put his hands on the
table with the palms up. I said, "Now turn your hands over," but he didn't
turn his hands over. Now this infuriated me. If he had from the very start
acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn't wanted to do it, that they
forced him or something else, I would have treated him somewhat differently.
But he insolently stuck to his story, "No, I did not do anything, it wasn't
me." When they turned his hands over the name Rita was in fact tattooed on his
hand. His face distorted and he whispered something wicked. I immediately flew
into a rage. There was an ashtray on the table, a really heavy one, made out
of granite or something, very large, and it had ashes and butts in it.
Catching myself quite by surprise, I hurled that ashtray at him. But he ducked
and the ashtray hit the wall, and ashes and butts rained down on his head and
back. And he smiled. When he smiled it provoked me further. I don't know how,
but I jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or
strangling him; I no longer remember which. When I jumped I caught the
microphone cord. The investigator was there, Tolya . . .I no longer recall his
last name, and he says, "Lyudochka, it's a Japanese microphone! Please . . .
" And shut off all the equipment on the spot, it was all being video taped.
They took him away. I stayed, and they talked to me a little to calm me down,
because we needed to go on working, I only remember Tolya telling me, "You're
some actress! What a performance!" I said, "Tolya, honestly . . . " Beforehand
they would always tell me, "Lyuda, more emotion. You speak as calmly as if
nothing had happened to you." I say, "I don't have any more strength or
emotion. All my emotions are behind me now, I no longer have the strength
. . . I don't have the strength to do anything." And he says, "Lyuda, how were
you able to do that?" And when I returned to normal, drinking tea and watching
the tape, I said, "Can I really have jumped over that table? I never jumped
that high in gym class."
So you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international.
I'll return to Grigorian, what he did in our apartment. He spoke Azerbaijani extremely well. But he was very fair-skinned, maybe that led me to think that they had it out for
him, too. But later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning
of Shagen Sargisian. I don't know if he participated in the rapes in our
apartment; I didn't see, I don't remember. But the people who were in our
apartment who didn't yet know that he was an Armenian said that he did.
Grigorian was sentenced to 20 years and then transferred to Yerevan on the request of Armenian authorities and shortly after that he was released from Armenian prison.
To the last Anon,
I agree with what you wrote, except I don't agree that it is Turks/Azeris vs. the rest of the world. It's about Genocide Deniers vs. the rest of the world. There are many Turks who acknowledge that it was a Genocide, and there are many non-Turks who are knowing Deniers.
Anonymous, why won't you be a man and admit that you are Armenian. Why are you hiding behind a mask? Are you ashamed of your nationality or something? Seriously, you sound like a little Armenian kid who was brainwashed by Dashnaks.
Sumgayit chaos in which 6 Azeris dies as well and in which the mob of angry Azeri refugees from Armenia was lead by an Armenian (Eduard Grigorian), happened, as you've mentioned in 1990. The conflict started in 1988. By that time Baku and especially Sumgayit was filled with refugees who fled Armenian prosecution in Armenia and some parts of Karabakh. Eduard Grigorian was sentenced to 5 years in prison and committed most cold blooded attrocities against Armenian and a few Azeri civilians. So, don't tell me fairy tailes about these events. I lived in the country at the time and remember all the refugees and their stories very well. Were you there to speak of those events? Or did you just read Armenipedia again?
If you are justifying Khojaly Genocide? Are you justifying the brutal murder of women, children and old people by Armenian forces (who unlike purpetrators of Sumgayit events) were never punished and carried out a very well organized and coordinated military plan to wipe out the entire city and the entire populationof of that city from the face of the earth? Are you justifying it by some street gang violence that was? If you do, then you are no better than those who carried out this act of Genocide because Monte Melkonian had exactly the same pathetic excuse for what he did in Khojaly to innocent civilians.
Hey Anonymous- how do you know that John is Armenian? How about Zane? Do you think that its only the Armenians who care about the Armenian Genocide? Where have you been for the past 90 years. The entire civilized world and its citizens are outraged by Turkish continued denial of one of the greatest crimes against humanity of all time. The Genocide against the Armenians has been recognized by most major countries in the world. Even the US, while not officially recognizing the truth, has failed to do so because of the Turkish threats and blackmail. As an American, I am embarrassed that my country was bullied into backing down (albeit termporarily) on the Genocide resolution because the Turks actually had the utter gall to threaten the lives of our brave troops. I'm ashamed that my country, once a great superpower, has been shoved around by Turkey. But, I am just waiting for Turkey to show its real colors. It would have so convenient for the Turks if the US had passed the resolution. Then, the Turks could use that as a justification (ridiculous as it may seem) to enter Iraq. The US cowers and the Turks still go ahead and prepare to enter Iraq despite the US's protests.
You would be wise to stop thinking that this is an issue of the Armenians against the Turks/Azeris. In reality, its an issue between the Turks/Azeris and the rest of the world. If you can't see that already then I pity you.
Anonymous,
Have you heard of the terms "Sumgayit pogrom" or, maybe, "Baku pogrom" ?
These anti-Armenian massacres happened in February 1988 and January 1990, long before the start of the Karabagh war. Women raped on the streets, old people massacred in cold blood. These happened in cities where there was not even a scent of war. So don't give me this bullshit about denying massacre and so on. Go back and read about your history. You were probably too young in 1988 to remember the truth.
John, you are denying a horrible massacre of civilians by diminishing its importance. How do you think you are different now from Turks? How do you think you are different from any other Genocide denier?
This is so funny to see how Armenians who push genocide issue try to convince everyone around that recognition of the Armenian genocide is important not only to Armenians but most importantly for the justice system in the world and for the prevention of other massacres and genocides. In their arguments, they constantly try to convince evryone that this is not just Armenian issue and that this is all about human rights and violence prevention. But as soon as someone asks them about Khojaly Genocide massacre that happened very recently, their typical reply is: "This topic is completely irrelevant to our Genocide". Is this a selective human rights protection campaign then?
One should remember that the Armenian genocide and the Khojaly massacre are not historical events that are mutually exclusive. They can both co-exist in the annals of history.
The topic here is genocide and its definition, not a listing of massacres in the Middle East. Otherwise the first to note would be the massacre of 300,000 Armenians in 1894-96 in the Ottoman Empire.
I wonder if Khojaly Genocide, committed by Armenian nationalists against innocent Azeri civilians was also an "innocent Ironic" statement.
I wonder if you would have perceived it just as simple innocent IRONY if these racist and blood-thirsty comments would have been coming from me and were addressed to Armenians.
I think it's called a little difeerently. The more suited term here is: Racism and Hypocracy.
Mate, ever heard of something called "Irony"????
By the way, Anoosh and every other Armenian on this message board, it was interesting to see how none of you responded negatively to a post from Vrezh, where he was calling for a Genocide of million of Azeris. Does it mean that he is saying what you are thinking? Since those racist and blood-thirsty comments from your fellow Armenian do not seem to bother ou, then may be you even would like to go a step further and commend him on such statements?
Anoosh, you still didn't regret the loss of innocent Azerbaijani and Turkish lives, even though I did regret the loss of innocent Armenian lives. It just shows your "objectivity" on the subject. All victims which are not Armenian (especially if they are Turks) don't matter.
Second, can you tell me how Encyclopedia Britannica is not a valid source? Please, please, do explain. Should I be looking instead at Armenipedia? Is that the source you go by?
I'm just presenting facts. Those quotes are from:
"In the 1920s Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story was subjected to criticism by two prominent American historians. Sidney Bradshaw Fay and Harry Elmer Barns."
and:
"from the Princeton University, Department of Near Eastern Studies, historian Heath W. Lowry"
Take it with them, not with me.
I will later post quotes from Mortgenthau's memoirs, so everyone can read and see his racism towards all Turks. It's like quoting a member of KKK about blacks or Jews. I wish everyone would read his memoirs in full and not just selected quotes provided by Armenian nationalists.
Besides, everything in his memoirs is based on "he said", "she said". All of his statements are based on "witness accounts" from his Armenian friends and couple of Christian Missionaries, working with those Armenians.He hasn't witnessed a single massacre himslef.
Read the book by Heath Lowry and you will be able to read objective statements from a non-interested party, such as British navy officers and American diplomats who actually witnessed the battles of Ottoman forces against Armenian rebells first hand. Good luck.
Ano- Obviously, you and I are having a hard time understanding each other. I do not use Wikipedia as a resource. As I noted earlier, it is written by anyone with access to a computer. My source for Morgenthau's quotes is …..Morgenthau in his book. He was an eyewitness and the US Ambassador to Turkey. Are you insuating that members of the US Foreign Service are merely propogandists? Have you even bothered to read Morgenthau's memoirs? Buy a copy online for US $22 and educate yourself before you equivocate and blather on and on about subjects which you clearly know little about.
Ano- I am having a hard time working with you. I really don't mean any disrespect but it seems like we are not on the same level. I have spent years and years in the best schools in this country where I have learned how to conduct proper research. Wikipedia and that other ridiculous site you gave yesterday are not primary sources. They are internet created opinion free-for-alls. I really don't think I can waste any more time responding to your diatribes.
Daniel's post was about Lemkin and Morgenthau, two great Jewish men who are immensely important in the study of the Armenian Genocide. Your attempts to take off topic with babble about Azerbaijan, etc. and your insults are not appreciated. I thought you rested your case yesterday.
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So let me get this straight:
Morgenthau is a liar
Lemkin knew nothing about genocide
Franz Werfel was a con-artist who based his novel on pure speculation
The International Association of Genocide Scholars is irrelevant on the topic of genocide
Elie Wiesel is a novice to the concepts of holocaust and genocide
Come on, gimme a break.
You are living in a fantasy world. Learn from the likes of Taner Akcam and Ali Kazancigil, re-educate yourself on the history of the Ottoman Empire, so that you're not stuck in a glorious past that is as fictitious as Santa Claus.
Anoosh, I just wanted to help you out and post here the rest of the Wiki's info, that you previously posted here, on Margenthue and his memoirs about Ottoman Empire. I think you just forgot or overlooked it but it's also very important:
In the 1920s Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story was subjected to criticism by two prominent American historians. Sidney Bradshaw Fay was an authority on European diplomatic history, a recognised American authority on the question of war guilt and the writer of The Origins of the World War. In the journal Kriegschuldfrage, May, 1925, Fay criticised the sixth chapter of the ambassador's book, on the delay of German war initiation for two weeks or legend of the Potsdam Crown Council of July 5th and commented:
Harry Elmer Barnes, in his The Genesis of the World War; an Introduction to the Problem of War Guilt (New York: Knopf, 1926), pp. 241-247) which largely consist of a Sidney Bradshaw Fay quote concludes:
[3].
On the other hand, from the Princeton University, Department of Near Eastern Studies, historian Heath W. Lowry in his The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, (ISIS Press, Istanbul,1990) describes the ambassador's attitude as follows:
Wow, this cut and paste ofthe same Morgenthau's quotes over and over again is getting nausiating. If I want to hear Armenian side of the story, I can always go to Wiki and read all this B.S. there. After all, we all here have Internet.
It is encouraging to finally see sanity return to this forum, to debate matters as Mr. Daniel Koffler intended I'm sure… Thanks
Gary is right on. Goldberg's documentary which aired on PBS included the footage of Mr. Lemkin explaining the genesis of the word genocide. I believe the clips are available online and they are truly enlightening.
Daniel's post got me thinking that I should reread Ambassador Morgenthau's memoirs as I haven't looked at them in several years. I spent most of last night reading the eyewitness accounts documented by this great man and actually gasped in disbelief that there could be any questions whatsoever about whether or not the events of 1915 constituted a genocide. I STRONGLY urge anyone who has any question about what happened to the Armenians to read Ambassador Morgenthau's Story. Not only did this remarkable Jewish man who was the US Ambassador to Turkey in 1915 witness and document the destruction of the Armenians, he tried valiently to stop the atrocities. He appealed to the US, the world and to the Turks themselves to stop killing Armenians. He repeatedly met with Talaat and Enver Pasha, two of the masterminds of this extermination plan and told them to stop. His pleas were met with stone cold faces and remarks that he had no say in how Turkey treated her own subjects. Morgenthau's heroism in the face of such evil is heartbreaking when you consider that his own people were subject to a similiar plan of race extermination not long after.
In case you don't have an opportunity to read Ambassador Morgenthau's words, I will share a few passages. Morgenthau wrote,
"When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact." p. 204.
"My only reason for relating such dreadful things as this is that, without the details, the English-speaking public cannot understand precisely what this nation is which we call Turkey. I have by no means told the most terrible details, for a complete narration of the sadistic orgies of which these Armenian men and women were the victims can never be pirinted in an American publication. Whatever crimes the most perverted instincts of the human mind can devise, and whatever refinements of persecution and injustice the most debased imagination can conceive, became the daily misfortunes of this devoted people. I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. (emphasis added.) The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915." p. 213.
And in the same converstion between Mr. Morgenthau and Talaat that Daniel quoted above, the Ambassador told the Turk, "You will have to meet public opinion everywhere, especially in the United States. Our people will never forget these massacres. (emphasis added.) They will always reprsent the wholesale destruction of Christians in Turkey. They will look upon it as nothing but willful murder and will seriously condemn all the men who are responsible for it. You will not be able to protect yourself under your political status and say that you acted as Minister of the Interior and not as Talaat. You are defying all ideas of justice as we understand the term in our country." p. 223.
The sad thing is that our people have forgotten. And as a result, genocide continues to this day.
Lemkin's 1949 interview with CBS, in which he notes the Armenian genocide as a source of inspiration was a total revelation for me. I mean, it's the ultimate siliencer of denial.
Kudos to Andrew Goldberg for having uncovered the footage, and kudos to Daniel for retelling the obvious in such clarity of thought and elegance.
Jews seem to be on multiple sides of virtually every topic and discussion I can think of. Am I wrong to say that? If not, is there anything on which Jews can universally agree?
This Armenian Genocide topic is just one example, where you have Jews arguing even with each other, and even within an organization like the ADL.
Anyway, it just occured to me to mention this, because I was reading the comments in the 2 Ron Paul articles, and it was the same over there. Then I started thinking about it, and things like Jews for Jesus, and Zionists against Israel came to mind; I've even read Jews calling each other anti-semites in various forums.
I rest my case here too.
Your problem with Armenia and Karabakh has nothing to do with the issues on this board. If you want to write about them, find another place where it is relevant.
Also, if an Armenian massacres someone, he will do it out in the open and not try to deny it. So, what is your problem?
It was before the earthquake. Earthquake in Armenia was in 1988. Learn your own history. My father flew in a civilian helicopter with relief aid for Armenia few days after the earthquake happened. As soon as their helicopter crossed the border, it was sprayed with bullets from the ground. They had to turn around and all that food and clothing never reached innocent Armenian families, who suffered from this devastating natural disaster. This happened with most Azeri aid relief convoys at that time.
Azerbaijan did not intend to close off the border with Armenia but all of the trains and trucks were constantly attacked by Armenian rebells and after a while Azeri controllers and drivers refused to risk their lives and head to Armenia with provision. That is when the border got closed.
Do not act ignorant, you know full well that 1987 Azeri refugees from Armenia were the victims of the earthquake, and instead of helping them, the Azeris governments turned them against the Armenians in Baku and Sumgait.
This is too funny, Armenians massare others and then cry that it's not their responsibility but rather a responsibility of their masters who ruled them. That's why your nationalists are always in a search of a new master? That's why your Armenian government is the only Russian-puppet government in the entire Caucasus? You serve them and they for their part cover your ass when you massacre your neighbors' population and occupy their lands? Your nationalists are not men enough to answer for thier own deeds themselves and take responsibility for everything that they've done?
Listen ass hole Vrezh, you piece of shit. Shut your racist hole and go screw yourself. You are too stupid to understand these kinds of discussions. Russians don't run the campaign of denilism but your Armenian terrorist Dashnags (like you) do.
Don't get too hysterical, it's only the beginning. I know it hurts, but it needs to be done.
Vrezh, Armenians shouldn't have started territorial claims against its neighbor, they shouldn't have occupied 20% of Azerbaijan if they wanted to be friends and own Baku oil fields today. In 1918 Armenian Dashnags betrayed Azeris in Baku and instead of fighting off Russian Red Army together as they agreed upon, they switched sides and massacred the entire Azeri population of Baku with the help of Russian Army. Even after that during Soviet times, Armenians held high political positions in Baku. Armenians in Baku during those years had everything: wealth, religion, language, culture. All of my aunts are Armenians and all of them lived right in the center of the city in the best buildings of Baku. And it was like that all over Azerbaijan. But no, Dashnags had to bring up territorial claims and had to avenge for Armenian "Genocide" even though Azeris and Turks are totally different nations. Armenian nationalists always refused and still refuse to call us Azerbiajanis. They still refuse to aknowledge Azeris as a nation. For them we are just enemy "Turks". This stupidity and greed for land brought so much suffering to innocent Armenians and Azeris alike. And that is the answer to your question on why there are no Armenians owning Baku oil fields today. There are still 10,000 Armenians live in Azerbaijan, mostly in Baku. Many of my Armenian relatives are still there. Tell me how many Azeris live in Armenia today? No, better yet, tell me how many non-Armenians live in Armenia today?
The mass deportations of Azeris from Armenia were carried out even during the time of friendship between the two republics. It was and always is a priority policy of Armenian nationalists. The first Azeri refugees that my parents saw, were Azeri refugees coming from Armenia to Baku in 1970s. The first refugees that I've witnessed were refugees from Armenia in 1987, long before we even knew about Karabakh issue. But no one had a right to question what was going on, as Soviet government did not allow talk of such things. While we thought that we are finally friends with Armenians, Dashnags did their job from abroad and continued their propaganda of hate and territorial claims. After the conflict broke out, police found a stock pile of weapons in Armenian Church in Baku. And even though all these years our Armenian neighbors were telling us how they were make financial contributions in church for an "Armenian Cause" (Hye Dat), we never understood what it really meant.
Stop being an idiot and stop acting like a hysterical whore. You keep posting things here that may have happened under Russian rule in Russian ruled territories. And as far as I'm concerned Russians are not running a campaign of denialism about the events of that period under Tsarist Russia. Your attempt to muddy the issues here are too weak and too obvious.
Armenian Genocide is about Armenians within Ottoman Empire, not Russian Empire.
These spammers fail to understand one simple fact. The issue of Genocide recognition is not an attack on Turkish people or Azeris. Armenians have nothing personal against common Turkish people, they have issues with the denialist government of Turkey.
"I would love to see all these Mosques in today's Yerevan. I would also like to see all these Persians and Tatars there as well." On the same basis, would you like to see Armenians owning the oil fields of Baku like they did prior to Soviet times?
When you stop using word "genocide" in reference to the events of 1915 and aknowledge the slaughter of Turkish civilians by Armenian forces, when you start discussing the issue in an objective manner, only then Turks won't have to put all these facts of Armenian attrocities right under your nose. But until you continue to disrespect and disregard loss of Turkish civilian lives, and ignore factual historical evidence, you will be getting an educational lecture of the past just like it's being done now.
When a nation is being accussed of something without a proven legal document, members of that nation have a right to refute the accusations and present their side of the story. This what is called democracy and freedom of speech. Accusations without legal proof are called LIBEL and in this case STIR OF ETHNIC HATRED and RACISM.
I wonder how you would react if someone comes up with a story under the title: "Palestinian Genocide and Israel's Denialist Policy". And after your reply posts that there was no such genocide and your counter arguments with detailed prove of how many Israelis were killed by these same Palestinians, someone will come out and tell you to stay relevant to the subject, clean up your act and not to bore everyone with completely irrelevant material. Furthermore, that someone will accuse you of trying to divert the discussion of Palestinian Genocide to a different direction. I would like to see your reaction and response to that one.
Before asking for a respect towards you from someone esle, you should be able to deliver that respect yourself.
I thought the topic was "Bernard Lewis, Abe Foxman, Genocide, and 'Genocide'".
I came to Jewcy to read about this insightful subject, But instead, I encountered nothing but tons of irrelevant, boring and repetitive material posted by one person peddling a different agenda.
I hope he cleans up his act by staying true to the subject at hand. If he wants a discussion about a topic close to his heart, he most certainly have the right to start a forum of his own and we will be glad to join in. I appreciate the understanding.
Erivan or IRWAN, in ERIVAN Persian, Rewan
The old Persian portion of the town consists mainly of narrow crooked lanes enclosed by mud walls, which effectually conceal the houses, and the modern Russian portion is laid out in long ill-paved streets. On a steep rock, rising about 600 ft. above the river, stand the ruins of the 16th-century Turkish fortress, containing part of the palace of the former Persian governors, a handsome but greatly dilapidated mosque, a modern Greek church and a cannon foundry. One chamber, called the Hall of the Sardar, bears witness to former splendour in its decorations. The finest building in the city is the mosque of Hussein Ali Khan, familiarly known as the Blue Mosque from the colour of the enamelled tiles with which it is richly encased. At the mosque of Zal Khan a passion play is performed yearly illustrative of the assassination of Hussein, the son of Ali.
Armenians, Persians and Tatars are the principal elements in the population, besides some Russians and Greeks.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Erivan%2C_Russia_%28Capital%29
I would love to see all these Mosques in today's Yerevan. I would also like to see all these Persians and Tatars there as well.
And just for you, I'm bringing a quote from yet another source. Don't worry, it's not Wiki, it's Encyclopedia Britannica of 1911. I hope you let your 8 year-old read this encyclopedia or at least anything non-Armenian.
An estimate in 1906 gave a total of 909,100. They consist chiefly of Armenians (441,000), Tatars (40%), Kurds (49,389), with Russians, Greeks and Tates.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Erivan,_Russia_(Government)
Anoosh, I expected you to start denying and questioning any independent source that does not support your view. Well, typical denialist strategy, what can I say. When your nationalists try to prove something and bring up sources from Wiki you never seem to bring up this argument of Wiki being ureliable. But when Turks and Azeris reference Wiki, right away you scream that the source in not valid and cannot be used. Double standards and hypocracy at its best.
So you decide to ignore all the references (at the end of the text), on which Wiki is basing its statements? So you are basically saying that all the following sources are unreliable: United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, U.S. Department of State, Effron Encyclopedic Dictionary, New York University Press? You even disregard statements made by your own Armenians: Ohannes Hakopovich Devedjian?
You go even further to contradict yourself. At first you say that Wiki is unreliable because anyone can edit encyclopedia's texts and at the same time you are claiming that Wiki administration took down some "false" texts, printed by Azeri side. Doesn't that mean that not everyone can post anything on that site and that Admins of the site actively control the texts and do not allow unverified statements on their site? Anoosh, you should stop playing a double standard game and choose either one side or another. Because your statements of such kind discredit your ability to be objective and make clear-headed judgements.
Anoosh, how come you avoided answering the following post:
———————————————————————————
I wish you all the best and I feel really sad for the loss of innocent lives of your grandparents and for the loss of every innocent life of every Armenian. And I hope you feel the same about innocent civilian Turks and Azeris.
———————————————————————————–
Does it mean that you really don't feel sad for the loss of innocent lives of Azeris and Turks? I thought that out of all other Armenian posters here, you were the human and understanding and fair one. I guess I was wrong.
Ano 10:08, You need to come up with a better source than "Wikipedia". As I am sure you know, Wikipedia is not a true enclycopedia and is not a valid resource for even the most basic scholar. I wouldn't even let my 8 year old rely upon it as a resource for a class project.
Why? Wikipedia contains content that is written and edited by anyone with access to the internet. Anyone can write whatever they want and anyone can edit these entries.
Wikipedia itself admits that its "articles may contain significant misinformation, unencyclopedic content or vandalism." http://www.wikipedia.com. The Founder of Wikipedia has admitted to serious quality problems. (See http://www.theRegister.ct.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia-quality-problem/.
Moreover, the administrators of Wikipedia have been forced to remove Azeri posts about Nagorno-Karabakh because of their false and political content.
I suggest that you use honest and reliable resources before you spread your misinformation around on the web.
well, if anyone is truly interested in the hidden story behind this topic…i suggest they do a wikipedia search on 'talaat pasha'. they will find that talaat, like most of the CUP, were, in fact, donmeh, which suggests that armenian anger against 'the turks' might be misplaced. true turks and the turkish nation are being blamed for the murderous actions, manipulations and schemes of the few powerful criminals who mastermined and later profited from the genocide. as melson points out, the genocide – like the holocaust – was an internal war of theft – though it preceded the holocaust by 30 years and was commited against a native population that represented fully 25% of anatolia. to ignore this underlying fact is like ignoring the five ton elephant in the room. when will people wake up?
As I've predicted, you are just gonna blab out some denialist nonsense, overlooking every fact presented to you. Off course, when you are full of B.S. and lies, you have nothing to present as an educated argument in a civilized manner. Personal insults steam from one's week position and insecurity.
S/he is on a roll again! wow!
Desperation is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end the faster it spins.
Keep spinning… Go ahead, pollute this site too with your cut-&-paste ramblings.
By trying to censor Azeris and Turks to speak of their dead, you show your true nature racist face to the rest of the world. These massacres occurred at the same time in the beginning of the century and they were committed by Armenian nationalists – the involved party. That makes it very much relevant, because it just proves the point that no genocide took place but it was a rather a war, in which both parties committed attrocities against each other.
You have a complete disregard and disrespect to the loss of innocent Turkish and Azeri lives. For racist people like you, it is: "A good Turk is a dead Turk". Trust me, your denialist strategy is breaking down and that is why you are now so hysterical.
I provided you with facts in my previous post and all you can do is throw around groundless and childish denialist defense phrases, such as: "it's not true" or "it's a Turkish propaganda". If you can prove that this is wrong, support your argument with facts, otherwise don't waste anyone's time and don't polute this respected site with empty phrases.
Yes, Armenian attrocities of Azeri and Turks are always "unrelated".
And here are the FACTS from Wiki Encyclopedia, regarding Azeri population in Armenia thoughout the history:
According to the Armenian-American historian George Bournoutian, "in the first quarter of the 19th century the Khanate of Erevan included most of Eastern Armenia and covered an area of approximately 7,000 square miles. The land was mountainous and dry, the population of about 100,000 was roughly 80 percent Muslim (Persian, Azeri, Kurdish) and 20 percent Christian (Armenian)".[4] According to the Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, by the beginning of the 20th century a significant population of Azerbaijanis lived in Russian Armenia. They numbered about 300,000 persons or 37.5% in Russia's Erivan Governorate (roughly corresponding to most of present-day central Armenia, the I?d?r Province of Turkey, and Azerbaijan's Nakhichevan exclave).[5] Most lived in rural areas and were engaged in farming and carpet-weaving. They formed the majority in 4 of the governorate's 7 districts, including the city of Erivan (Yerevan) itself where they constituted 49% of the population (compared to 48% constituted by Armenians).[6] At the time, Eastern Armenian cultural life was centered more around the holy city of Echmiadzin, seat of the Armenian Apostolic Church.[7] Historian Luigi Villari reported that in 1905, Azeris in Yerevan were generally wealthier than the Armenians living the city.[8]
For Azeris of Armenia, the 20th century was the period of marginalization, discrimination, mass and often forcible migrations[9] resulting in significant changes in the country's ethnic composition, even though they have managed to stay its largest ethnic minority until the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. In 1905–1907 Erivan Governorate became an arena of clashes between Armenians and Azeris believed to have been instigated by the Russian government in order to draw public attention away from the Russian Revolution of 1905.[10] Tensions rose again after both Armenia and Azerbaijan became briefly independent from the Russian Empire in 1918. Both quarreled over where their common borders lay.[7] Warfare coupled with the influx of Armenian refugees resulted in widespread massacres of Muslims in Armenia[11][12][13][14] causing virtually all of them to flee to Azerbaijan.[9] Relatively few returned, as according to the 1926 All-Soviet population census of there were only 78,228 Azeris living in Armenia.[15] By 1939, however, the numbers increased to 131,000.[16]
In 1948–1951, with the Council of Ministers of the USSR's adoption of the resolution entitled "Planned measures for the resettlement of collective farm workers and other Azerbaijanis from the Armenian SSR to the Kura-Arax lowlands", the growing Azeri community became partly subject to "voluntary resettlement" (classified by Azerbaijani sources as in fact deportation[17]) into central Azerbaijan[18] to make way for incoming Armenian immigrants from the Armenian diaspora. Some 100,000 Azeris left Armenia within those three years[15] bringing the number of those in Armenia further down to 107,748 in 1959.[19] By 1979, Azeris numbering 160,841 were constituting 6.5% of Armenia's population.[20]
Present day:
It is impossible to determine the exact population numbers for Azeris in Armenia at the time of the conflict's escalation, since during the 1989 census forced Azeri migration from Armenia was already in progress. UNHCR's estimate is 200,000 persons.[2] Civil unrest in Nagorno-Karabakh in 1987 led to Azeris' being often harassed and forced to leave Armenia.[21] On 25 January 1988 the first wave of Azeri refugees from Armenia settled in the city of Sumgait.[21][22] Another major wave occurred in November 1988[22] as Azeris were either expelled by the local authorities or fled fearing for their lives.[2] This ensured the total Azeri emigration by 1991[23] and them settling primarily in Azerbaijan and Russia.
Hranoush Kharatyan, Head of Department on National Minorities and Religion Matters of Armenia, has made the following statement in February 2007:
It is obvious that you are posting clippings from most recent Azeri/Turkish slanted propaganda here. That is probably due to your education in a fabricated history taught in Azerbaijan today, seems like they are real good at adopting Turkey's format of falsehood.
There were never 2 million Azeris in Armenia in the 70s. Yerevan was only 17% Muslim in 1905, where as Baku was predominantly Armenian at the time. You claim 2.5 million muslims were killed by the Dashnaks within Russian Army. Do you know how many people and how long it would take to directly kill 2.5 million people? Do some simple calculations, you will know that those numbers do not make sense.
By posting unrelated facts to this article you are just showing desperation and extreme prejudice.
First of all, Anoosh, the insults from me were not addressed to you but to Alamity, who insulted me first. It was a response directed to him and people like him, not you.
Second, just like your grandparents became victims of events of 1915, my grandparents became victims of 1918. They faced massacre by Armenians in Nakhchivan and had to flee with their children to Baku on foot. So, when you post here, you disrespect and play down the importance of lives of all innocent civilian Azeris and Turks who were slaughtered by Armenian nationalists.
Third, I do not hate all Armenians. It is impossible just because there are too many Armenian relatives in my family. Two out of three of my aunts are Armenian and my favorite cousin with whom we are so close is half Armenian. But they all lived in Baku during the events and they do not deny the terrible things that Armenian nationalists did to Azeri civilians and Azerbaijan as a whole. I am close to them, becuase as all logical people, they recognize that Armenia currently illigally occupies 20% of Azerbaijani territory and they wish that Dashnags never existed, so they could bring back the times when we all lived in Azerbaijan together in peace and prosperity.
You say it is impossible to say anything about Armenian "genocide" in Turkey in fear of being prosecuted. Now tell me, what about Armenia? You think Armenians can freely speak of Dashnag attrocities against Turks and Azeris in Armenia? And why is it that there so many Armenians still live and come to live to Turkey, how come that Armenians have their churches, communities, Armenian newspapers, religious organizations in Turkey but not a single Turk today can be found in the whole Armenia? Can you explain this to me? In the beginning of the century, only Yerevan was 70% Turkish and Azeri. In 1970s Armenia had over 2 million of Azeri population. What happened to the Azeri, Kurdish and Jewish population of Karabakh and adjacent Armenian-occupied territories? Where are all non-Armenians that used to live there now?
And finally, Anoosh, I've said it numerous times before and I'll say it again. I'm not Turkish and never even been to Turkey.
Anoosh, if you want to talk about a certain subject, lets try not to be biased and talk about both sides of the story. If you don't know about victims of the other side, then at least don't try to censor members of the opposite side.
I wish you all the best and I feel really sad for the loss of innocent lives of your grandparents and for the loss of every innocent life of every Armenian. And I hope you feel the same about innocent civilian Turks and Azeris.
First of all, if you read my posts, you will see that I never make personal insults. My comments are limited to your comments and resources, NOT the poster. I will compare that to your post above where you call ME personally an "idiot", "brainless" and a "facist" among other things. I would appreciate it if you would limit your comments to the posts and not the person (if you are capable of such behavior.)
With respect to your supposition that I wish that the world was free of Turks, I must inform you that you are 100% wrong. I have said it before and I will say it again: I do not hate all Turks. In 1915, there were some good, decent, moral Turks. Many of the survivors of the Genocide survived because they were rescued by their Turkish neighbors. It was a crime punishable by death to aid an Armenian, yet there were those good Turks who did so anyway. Before the Genocide, some good Turks warned their Armenian neighbors what the governement had in store for them. During the genocide, others hid Armenians in their barns, their homes. Do you think that the Armenians don't know this?
I am the grandchild of four survivors of the Armenian Genocide (perhaps that explains my passion on the topic.) My paternal grandmother was saved by a Turk. A Turkish Hannum plucked my grandmother out of a death march across Der Zor and brought her to work in her home. That death march claimed the lives of my grandmother's sister and her two nieces. My great grandparents on my dad's side had already been executed by the Ottoman officials. This Turkish woman saved my grandmother's life.
Armenians know that there were Turks who were good. Where have all of those good Turks gone? Every time you post your comments on the internet, you do two things. First, you show your continued hatred toward the Armenians. Its just as bad now as it was in 1915. Secondly and more importantly, you dishonor the memory of those survivors who your own ancestors helped save. You can't even speak openly in your country about the heroism of your ancestors without facing imprisonment.
I would like to thank the good Turks who helped save my grandmother. I would like to embrace our shared history. But, in order for me to do so, you must first admit the truth. If you don't, not only do you deny the parts of your history that you do not care to face, you also deny the parts of your history that are honorable and decent. Let me thank you. Let me embrace you for saving my grandmother's life. I don't hate you. Don't hate me for simply telling my grandparents' stories.
Ah, denialist best strategy is personal insults. I understand, this is what you do best. Actually that's the only thing you can do. That and B.S. that is filled in your brainless head. When there is nothing to say, where there are no counter arguments, idiots always resort to meaningless blah-blah insults.
Anoosh, you miss the days when you were able to propogate your lies without a counter argument from the other side? Off course you do. This was so much easier to brainwash uneducated in this subject people with your history falsification, forgery and portray yourself as a victim of all misfortunes of the world. It was so easy to cover up and just not speak of Armenian attrocities back then. What a joyful times!
Off course you would like to silence everyone who has something to say that opposes your view. This is how you get massacres in Armenian parliament, freedom of speech violations and Armenian terrorist organizations who blow up anyone who does not support their "Armenian Cause" (even their own liberal-minded Armenians). Why won't you go further and state your true feelings and wishes – a place with no Turks. A perfect place for you, isn't it? You've achieved it in Armenia and on 20% of occupied Azerbaijani territories and now you are trying so hard to apply the same ethnic cleansing even here, in the world of Internet.
That is exactly the image of perfect world for nationalist Armenians – A world of dictatorship, human rights and freedom of speech violations against everyone who disagrees with you. Oh, and I forgot one more thing – Armeniazation of the entire planet and Greater Armenia from Ocean to Ocean. Armenian globe. Perfect Armenian Fascism.
You said it Alamity. I can't even comprehend half of what he is trying to say. His sources are rubbish and my eyes get strained trying to read his babble. Why is it that there can not be a single post anywhere on the internet about the Armenian Genocide that is not followed by a stream of Turkish gobledegook? I miss the days when I could come to Jewcy for some insightful commentary on the Armenian Genocide by our Jewish friends.
I rest my case! I really do!
As I predicted earlier, I knew this anonymous turkey will rear his ugly head, and it's not even thanksgiving yet.
This gifted Turkic anonymous, has a diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of ideas… He just cuts and pastes, the same crap, over and over again on every Jewcy forum that debate "Armenian Genocide" issues.
Do yourself a favor and go gobbling back to your cramped coop if you've got nothing intelligent to say.
Like US President Mr. Bush said it's part of Armenian History.
And here is the part of Turkish History that armenians cannot deny:
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."
Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)
"…When Turkey had not yet entered the war…Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks…"
Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off… There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."
Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."
Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 … in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum… (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The xxxs like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and xxxish communities.
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
"…In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage…"
Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
Armenian Genocide of 2.5 Million Muslim People
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
>“As the Turks had solved the Armenian problem in Turkey by slaying
>or driving the Armenians out of the country, so we now proceeded
>to solve the Tartar problem in Armenia. We closed the roads and
>mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars,
>and then proceeded in the work of extermination.''
> Ohanus Appressian, from L. R. Hartill, “Men Are Like That,''
> The Bobbs-Merrill Company, London, 1928. P. 202.
You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Let us ask Armenian scholars – shall we?
Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.
pp. 17-18.
"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
very often defenseless and innocent."
p. 25.
"We were defeated".
p. 38.
"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war…and a call was sent for
Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."
p. 38.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
By the way, here is the entire paragraph.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Yes, I knew that Armenian mass murder and Genocide deniers will pop-up like a fungi. And here they are. Typical deniers' propaganda: "Death of my people is bad but death of your people is a nessecaty". Typical racism and brainwashed mentality.
When Armenian fascists have nothing to say and they are pinned against the wall with independent factual documents (even with facts from their own fellow Armenians), they start to cry out baseless accusations, like: "it's a lie! it's a propaganda! it's not true! but our armenian lives are more important!". If you can prove that it's a lie then do it, otherwise shut it because you are wasting Internet space of the respected site. Typical Armenian nationalists' behaviour in such cases is to limit the freedom of speach of an opposite party. You are seriously scared, aren't you :) Don't worry, this is only a beginning. The truth will prevail.
To the mental giant who tries to equate Tehlirian with Safarov (did I not call this one correctly?), Tehlirian killed a mass murderer who was responsible for killing over a million innocent civilians (and that doesn't even include the Assyrians and Greeks). Safarov chopped off the head of an innocent man who had never hurt anyone in his life and was a child during the Karabagh war.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what happened to the Armenians at the hands of the Turks is GENOCIDE !!! Period!
I also have an observation: The fact that your writing didn't take long to awaken the deniers out of their mildewed, subterranean holes is pathetically interesting; These roaches crawl out of the bowels of the earth in an effort to block the blinding light of the truth that you writing has so wonderfully shined for the civilized world to see; These nefarious forces hiding behind their "anonymous mask" have already posted ad nauseam, the same cut-and-paste, regurgitated, revisionist gobbledygook propaganda…You can't help but feel sorry for them.
I was just reading the transcripts of the trial. Tehlirian was sent on one of the death marches with his mother, brothers and sister in 1915. On the day that the march began, his convoy was attacked and one of his sisters was abducted while his mother was screaming that may she go blind. During the commotion, he was knocked unconscience by someone. When he came to, his brother's dead body was on top of him, and his mother's dead body was nearby with her face in the ground. It was night time, and the convoy was gone, but there were dead bodies everywhere. He never found the bodies of his other brothers and sisters, and he never found them ever again. He was 18 at the time. His father was also killed during the Genocide. He was the only survivor from his immediate family. He frequently sufferend nervous breakdowns during his life before the trial. Several eyewitnesses testified that they had personally witnessed him passing out in public and having seizures with his mouth foaming.
If I were in Tehlirian's shoes and the murdered of not just my family but my people was living freely and enjoying the fruits of German culture while my brothers and sisters corpses were rotting in open graves in Anatolia, I would wish to have the courage he had to do what he did. Let's keep in mind that there were no laws under which Talaat could have been convicted and sentenced at the time, and Tehlirian did not have the luxury of turning Talaat into the authorities. Given that situation, I think Tehlirian did the courageous thing by ridding the world of a dangerous mass murderer.
If you don't call this Genocide, then you are flat-out hypocrats:
Some Armenian sources admitted the guilt of the Armenian side. According to Markar Melkonian, the brother of the Armenian military leader Monte Melkonian, "Khojaly had been a strategic goal, but it had also been an act of revenge." The date of the massacre in Khojaly had a special significance: it was the run-up to the fourth anniversary of the anti-Armenian pogrom in the city of Sumgait which was the Sumgait Massacre. Melkonian particularly mentions the role of the fighters of two Armenian military detachments called the Arabo and Aramo, who stabbed to death many Azeri civilians.
According to Serge Sarkisian, long-time Defense Minister and Chairman of Security Council of Armenia, “before Khojali, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We were able to break that [stereotype].
I bet after this posting, Armenian genocide deniers will pop-up like mushrooms after a rain:
The Khojaly Massacre was described by Human Rights Watch as "the largest massacre to date in the conflict" over Nagorno-Karabakh.[14] Memorial, the Moscow-based human rights group, stated in their report that the mass killing of civilians in Khojaly could not be justified under any circumstances and that actions of Armenian militants were in gross violation of a number of basic international human rights conventions.[15] Estimating the number of the civilians killed in the massacre, Human Rights Watch stated that "there are no exact figures for the number of Azeri civilians killed because Karabakh Armenian forces gained control of the area after the massacre". A 1993 report by Human Rights Watch put the number of deaths at least 161 [16], although later reports state the number of deaths as at least 200. According to Human Rights Watch, "while it is widely accepted that 200 Azeris were murdered, as many as 500-1,000 may have died". [17]
In Written Declaration No. 324, members of the PACE from Albania, Azerbaijan, Turkey and the United Kingdom, along with individual members from Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Macedonia and Norway stated that "On 26 February 1992, Armenians massacred the whole population of Khodjaly and fully destroyed the city", and called on the Assembly to recognize the massacre in Khojaly as part of "genocide perpetrated by Armenians against the Azerbaijani population". [18]
Name
The massacre is also referred to as the Khojaly Genocide and the Khojaly Tragedy by Azerbaijani people and by the government of Azerbaijan. [19]. Armenian government sources use the terms the Battle of Khojaly or the Khojaly event. Western governments and the western media refer to it as the Khojaly Massacre.
Oh yes, and I totally forgot about this one:
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis, 1926, 305 pages.
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
_Foreword:_
"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw today scattered among its ruins."
p. 15 (second paragraph)
"The Tartars [Azerbaijanis] were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized.
I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and treated them as inferiors."
p. 20 (second paragraph)
"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."
p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).
"Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead."
p. 218 (first and second paragraphs)
"We Armenians did not spare the Muslims. If persisted in, the slaughtering of Tartars, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. Muslims had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands, and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."
Indeed, there seems to be lots of denialist strategy coming from Armenian nationalists. And this is also a great book by an independent Western witness (British officer):
Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923), 287 pages.
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people)
p. 184 (second paragraph)
"I had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their troops being without discipline and not under effective control, atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
p. 177 (third paragraph)
"Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
Moslem villages in the plain…."
"Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security and protection…"
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 179 (first paragraph)
"Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them. Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into Turkey unmolested by his enemies."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with artillery, with probably a large force in support."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms. In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
Excellent post Daniel. Lemkin said in an interview on CBS in 1948, that the case of the Armenians was, inter alia, what influenced him to define the crime of genocide and lobby for the Genocide Convention. That interview is reproduced in Andrew Goldberg's documentary "The Armenian Genocide" http://www.twocatstv.com/armenian-genocide/.
Jews were instrumental from the beginning in seeking justice for the Armenians. In addition to Lemkin and Morgenthau, the Austrian-Jewish author Franz Werfel wrote the 40 Days at Musa Dagh http://www.amazon.com/Forty-Days-Musa-Dagh/dp/0881846686.
It is fascinating to follow the various anonymous comments in their conflation of events and times. There seems to be a continuum of denial that parallels the continuum of genocide.
Ramil Safarov was a refugee himself. His cousins and other close relatives were slaughtered by Armenian forces in his native village before his father and mother were able to save him and run for their own lives. This boy wittnessed murder and lost his home at age 7 or 8.
Ramil was never a national Azeri hero, as opposed to the Armenian national heroes, such as international terrorist Monte Melkonian, Nazzi colloborator – General Dro and a terrorist and a former president of most influential Armenian community of America (ANCA) – Mourad Topalian.
Ramil's actions were commended by a few members of some insignificant ultra-nationalist group that does not enjoy popularity among most of Azerbijani community. Most Azeris condemned Safarov's actions and condemned the fact that Ministry of Defence was able to overlook this person's mental disturbness.
I, personally, condemn Ramil's actions but for the sake of fairness it needs to be noted that what appears in Western world to be OK for Armenians is not considered to be OK for Azeris (or Turks). Human lives of Azeris and Turks will never be of the same importance (if any importance at all) to the Western world as lives of their own "Christian" Armenians and such. No one will ever care about innocent Turks and Azeris, ruthlessly slaughtered by Armenians and Russians during the events of 1905-1920. No one will ever care what happened to Azeris only 15 years ago in Kelbajar, Lachin, Masis, Goradiz, Spital, Leninakan. No one wants to discuss current illigal occupation of 20% of Azerbaijani territory, 1 million Azeri refugees and ethnic cleansing carried out by Armenians all on the territory of modern Azerbaijan. And even Khojaly Genocide never seems to be "a topic of discussion".
It's understandable. Why would anyone care for justice for Turks? Their lives are not as important, they are not human beings and don't deserve the same human rights. Justice and human rights should serve only to Armenians. Everything was created in this world only for them. And now even "Genocide" term appears to be pure ancient Armenian invention. Bravo! It is truly pathetic and extremely insulting to victims of Jewish Holocaust. That said, it is really insulting and disrespectful to half of my relatives and my Jewish roots from one side of my family. Yes, I am half Jew and half Azeri and that is very common from where I come from.
This is all sad, but true. As they say: "Life is not fair" but, fortunately, there is also a saying that: "What goes around, comes around".
Daniel, you know Tehlirian was acquitted, even though the crime was committed knowingly and in cold blood. What a fascinating case it must have been and is for a murderer to be acquitted, because his family was killed as part of the extermination of his people. Most Turks that I have encountered on the "Internets" believe this case to be a travesty of justice, and further proof that the "Christian" West hates Turks and loves Armenians, and therefore, any scholarship that comes form the West is tainted and unreliable.
Great article Daniel. By the way, there is a decent chance you will soon see posts here from Azeris who will try to equate the Tehlirian story with the Ramil Safarov story. Just for your info, Ramil Safarov killed an Armenian soldier at an UN Partnership for Peace educational program that involved learning English. Ramil snuck into the Armenian soldier's room while he was sleeping and hacked his head off with an ax. This happened a couple of years ago. Ramil became a national hero in Azerbaijan over night when he was convicted by a Hungarian court for murder (the PFP program was in Hungary). His defense was that some of his relatives (none were immediate relatives) were killed by Armenian soldiers during the Karabagh war. I guess his Azeri lawyers must have thought that if it was a good enough defense for Tehlirian, it might work for Safarov too.
Tremendous. Well said.
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