Avigdor Lieberman's Rise (And What It Means for Disapora Jewry)

"
Enter
Lieberman: if polls are correct, what American Jews will see in Israel is the
growing power of a party seen by most of them -- rightly or wrongly --
as racist toward Arab citizens. Lieberma's platform, of course, is more nuanced
and complicated than just being "racist" (which he claims it isn't)."

Talking about an understatement! Anyone can read his interviews in English - never mind in Hebrew where he might be a little more straighftorward - and see that there is no "nuance" whatsoever in his platform. His program is all about "transfer", which simple-minded people who just don't get "nuance" might call an euphemism for ethnic cleansing. His most recent accomplishment was trying to ban Arab parties from participating in Israel's elections. Interesting also that Rosner does not consider it important to report serious ongoing investigations of Lieberman for corruption and taking bribes! This guy may end up in jail, yet Rosner doesn't care to mention it. At least the NYT article he linked to felt compelled to report on recent developments:

"In a final twist, the police on Sunday detained seven associates of
Mr. Lieberman for questioning, including his daughter, who has since
been released to house arrest, as part of a longstanding investigation
into his finances. The police suspect Mr. Lieberman of money
laundering, fraud and breach of trust, although he has never been
charged. But many commentators here say the police attention will only
help Mr. Lieberman, a perennial suspect.

“Just look at the
Russian-language Internet sites,” wrote Lily Galili in the newspaper
Haaretz on Monday, “where Lieberman has once again become the
persecuted Russian immigrant, the representative of all such immigrants
ever victimized by the police.” 

A former nightclub bouncer in Moldavia (I kid you not!), Avigdor also has a temper that has embarrassed Israel quite a few times. See here for a quick example:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3614994,00.html

And during Cast Lead, he thought it appropriate to advise the Israeli government to do to Hamas what the US did to Japan:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull...

Yes, this guy is the "hottest political commodity in Israel's politics." 

Facts are stubborn things

Many Israelis today are "pro-European" rather than pro-Jewish.  They have no problem with non-Jews from Eastern Europe entering the country in large numbers, even though they are just as non-Jewish as Palestinian Arabs.  In fact, I just heard on GMA this morning that today a majority of people in what used to be Palestine are non-Jews... althought the source had some problems.

So does this guy support the movement to end the right of return for Jews?   That may seem like an off-the-wall question, but this is never discussed either in this article or in the links.  I know a lot of Israelis support the Euopeanization of Israel, including excluding non-European Jews (some include American Jews in this, some do not).  What's his position on the current Israeli government's refusal to admit Jews from Ethiopea?

I'm trying to get a handle on him that puts his ethnic cleaning stand in context.  Many years ago, I had the very dispiriting experience of getting to know some Southern Jews who were very racist against American Blacks.  They claimed they did this because it was 'pro-Jewish' when they were in public.  But privately they also acknowledged that they hated most Jews just as much as Blacks, and that they saw themselves as being more like "real" white people than other Jews.

Let's face it: most American Jews have more of a connection to the Democratic party than they do to source-true Judaism. Actually, most Israelis too; as Barbara Reader has said, "Many Israelis today are "pro-European" rather than pro-Jewish".

There is nothing at all racist about Lieberman's words. When Arab political parties in the Israeli Knesset openly proclaim a desire to wipe Israel off the map, the only racists are the leftists who don't charge the racists with treason. Rav Kahane, for example, is one of the few who truly respected the Arabs and took their claims seriously; the left tends to instead look down on the Arabs as intellectual simpletons who cannot speak for themselves, and instead need us to tell them what they want, even if they (the Arabs) disagree.

See http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-garbage-from-israeli-left...

"Rav Kahane, for example, is one of the few who truly respected the
Arabs and took their claims seriously;"

Yes, he respected the Arabs so much that the party he founded in Israel,
Kach, was declared a racist party by the Israeli government and banned from the
Knesset and completely outlawed later, which is truly remarkable considering
what is generally accepted in Israeli discourse. The U.S. State Department listed
Kach as a terrorist organization in 1994 and still lists Kach and Kahane Chai
as foreign terrorist organizations. Also, in 2006 a U.S. Federal Court upheld
that Kach was rightly listed as a terrorist organization in an appeal.

He is also the founder of the Jewish Defense League, well known for its
respect of Arabs as well, so much so that the JDL was considered a terrorist
organization by the FBI, and still has an entry in the Terrorism Knowledge
Base.

I guess if one approves of Meir Kahane and the JDL,
then Lieberman surely is just another fine but misunderstood fellow.

Facts are stubborn things

You do realize that according to the Palestinians, Tel Aviv is Palestinian territory, and all those who live there are "settlers". They also hold that Livni and Olmert are terrorist settlers. Most Europeans would agree, and certainly the UN would like to paint Olmert and Livni as nothing but terrorists. So just because the FBI considers Rav Kahane to be a terrorist, carries very little weight with me. Let us examine the facts themselves, and see if they are truly so stubborn:

Rav Kahane explicitly said that any Arab who accepts Israeli sovereignty and law, and consents to live in Israel as a peaceful citizen, to him he has no objection. He explicitly said that all his words were directed only at Arabs who either advocated or tolerated murder, terrorism, or treason against the state of Israel and/or Jews and/or Israelis.

By contrast, there are Arab political parties in the Knesset who, to this very day, continue to pledge and advocate the destruction and dismantling of the state of Israel, per se. They continue to advocate not a two-state solution, but the very demise of the present-day state of Israel, and its total replacement with an alternate regime.

According to the Israeli government, Rav Kahane is a terrorist for targeting any Arabs who advocate murder (and ONLY those particular murderous/terrorist Arabs), but the Arabs who unequivocally oppose the Jewish state per se are NOT terrorists.

I think it is clear who the real racists are.

blank

Windaddle:

You say, "consider the facts," but you offer conjecture.  When you say, "According to the Palestinians, Tel Aviv is Palestinian territory," which Palestinians are you citing? Which Arab political parties are in the Knesset advocating the destruction of Israel?  How can anyone consider facts when you don't offer them?

As for your man Kahane, his explicit acceptance of Arabs who accept the state of Israel and rejection of Arabs who do not stems from a biblical claim that Israel is the Jewish homeland, not the establishment of the modern state in 1948, and thus does not acknowledge the outrage that 100s of 1,000s of Palestinians experienced in being displaced and driven to Gaza and the West Bank.  This does not justify all Palestinian behavior or position, but nor is it irrelevant as Kahane would assert in light of the Humash and Nevi'im.

And the FBI considers the JDL terrorists because members of the JDL tried to blow up a mosque a few days after 9/11.  Consider that fact too, boy.

Stuff like this is a clarifying moment for me. With the election of Obama happening at the same time the Gaza conflict has happened really clarifies a lot for me: While America has grown and evolved, Israel has become more conservative, closed-minded and war obsessed.

 That's the truth.

 The reality is Israel's charter of right of return is not based in reality. If every Jew in the world went back to Israel right now, there's no way Israel can absorb them.  And what's the end result?  Israel blocking some Jews from coming back, and allowing others in.  And also the creeping settlements that exacerbate problems.

It's high time that Israelis and Jews around the world came up with a way to accept the diaspora culture without stigmatizing them.  And let's face it: If someone at a Jewish gathering asks you if you've been to Israel, we all know that 9 times out of 10 you had better say "Yes..." or "I want to..." because anything short of that results in lectures, preaching and subtle shunning.

Time to get some perspective folks. I'm proud to be Jewish and feel bad about Israel, but also look upon Israel as a dysfunctional mess in a region filled with other dysfunctional messes.

 Maybe we can colonize Mars? 

I had high hopes for the moon, it's closer and offers better shopping.

Brian, I'll put it this way: the same Palestinians which Israel is trying to broker peace with, be it the PLO or Hamas, they view Tel Aiv no differently than they do the West Bank; it is one territory to them. Read their speaches from the past 60 years; it's not like they keep it a secret. Anything from Palestinian heads of "state" to local mosque imams, it's the same dogma. I cannot remember the sources at the moment, but check Dershowitz's The Case for Israel and Peters's From Time Immemorial.

As for recent JDL actions, I've seen very little relationship between what Rav Kahane preached and what his followers do. Keep his followers out of this, and judge him by his own words.

Jack: I cannot understand how you hold Israel has moved to the right. The Labor party a few decades was more right-wing than Likud is today! Golda Meir,  who was in Mapai (which later merged with Labor, Israel's left-wing party) held that the Palestinian people didn't exist, and that therefore there could be negotiation with them. But today, Netanyahu, who is in Likud, seems barely distinguishable from Olmert and Livni in Kadima.

The Torah, about ten million times, introduces many mitzvot with the words, "When you come into the land...". Thus, Sifra (a Rabbinic midrash) says that the mitzvot really only apply in Israel, and that outside Israel, they are only reminders.

Why shouldn't Diaspora Jewry be pressured to make aliyah? We don't want your money - we want you home! For 2000 years, we prayed to G-d that He return us to our land, to our home. "By the rivers of Babylon, we wept..." What has happened to us? Does hypocrisy become us?

And even if Israel can't accept ALL of Jewry at once, nevertheless, Israel could accept immigration at a FAR higher rate than Diaspora Jewry is currently immigrating. In other words, let Diaspora Jewry pick up the emmigration rate, because rest assured, you all won't get anywhere near the maximum absorption rate anyway. 

And the sustainable absorption rate is a lot higher than you'd think. Between 1948 and 1951, 700,000 immigrants from the Arab countries were absorbed, doubling the country's population. So surely, Israel would be able to absorb the rest of world Jewry today, which would double the population again. If Israel once doubled its population in three years, surely Israel could do it again. Now, that rapid growth brought some years of rationing, but fine, let us double the population this time in ten or fifteen years, rather than in merely three.Within one generation, Israel could easily absorb the rest of world Jewry and end the diaspora once and for all.

"I cannot understand how you hold Israel has moved to the right."

Political discussion and on-the-ground reality are two different things.  Israel's response to the Gaza rocket attacks makes Gaza look like German bombed Poland. Seriously.  I can finally understand the comparisons and have no problem airing them.  Israel has every right to defend itself.  Much the the same way the U.S. has a right to defend itself.

But Gaza is now to Israel what Iraq is to the U.S.: A mess.  The destruction of Iraq has done nothing positive for the long-term stability of the region.  Similarly, what has happened in Gaza in the past month is simply sick on both sides.  I'm a tad sick and tired of hearing Israeli's talk about "Well, if we really wanted to destroy them, we would..."

Whatever.  We all know tons of Israeli's operate in the mindset that some people believe Jews can't fight so we'll overcompensate prove the world wrong by fighting harder and destroying more.  Great.  You can decimate more lives than others.  4,000 Gaza residents dead doesn't win anyone any prize.  It's all sick. 

"Within one generation, Israel could easily absorb the rest of world Jewry and end the diaspora once and for all." 

And why would getting rid of the Diaspora be a desirable thing?

But in all honesty, the heavy anti-Diaspora mindset has indeed destroyed the rich Jewish culture that was spawned in it.  NYC is still very Jewish, but nowhere near as rich as it once was.  Just look at the Lower East Side.  If a similar gentrification happened to Harlem people would be up in arms.  And guess what?  They are!  The Lower East Side?  Who cares.

To put more perspective on things, the yiddishkeit of the diaspora helped spawn a world of arts and culture that is admired the world over.  From comedians, to musicians, to formal artists....  It all came from the diaspora.

What is Israel offering?  A homeland and the promise of decimating enemies and pretty much nothing else.  Has Israel created an arts and culture tradition the world over?  Nope.  But mention Israel anywhere and the conversation will most likely entail war and conflict.

Get some perspective.  Israel is a great dream.  But it's reality is brutal and unappealing when things like this happen.

There's a good reason many Jews are becoming atheist and dismissing their heritage.  It's sad, but unless some larger acceptance of the Diaspora takes place and is done so in a way that can respect the Diaspora and Israel not one thing will change.

Comedians, to musicians, to formal artists - these are all great
things, but they aren't "Jewish". If these are your bag, Judaism has
nothing to do with them. Any Jewish artists, scientists, authors,
whatever, were what they were, irrespective of their being Jewish.

Don't
get me wrong; it's a fantastic thing to have Jewish experts and savants
in the sciences and arts, but there is nothing "Jewish" about this -
see Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner's "Zionism in the Light of Faith"
(http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/zionism.html), following the
Hatam Sofer.

Rather, it is a function of the fact that being
Jewish doesn't preclude being human - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch's
famous "Yisroel-Mensch" and "Torah im Derech Eretz", after all. 

Now then, Israel indeed has plenty of comedians, musicians, etc., but they aren't internationally famous for two reasons:
1) Israeli comedy and music are in Hebrew - not exactly readily consumable in America or anywhere else, and
2) They aren't Israel's raison d'etre, as I noted earlier. Yes, we have
arts and sciences, but we also have plumbers and electricians. The arts
aren't peculiarly Israel, nor are they Jewish.

In other words: if
one wants to be proud of being Jewish, Einstein is a pretty measly
basis. Yes, we have great scientists and artists, but the gentiles
don't?

(For the same reason, "ethics" and "morals", in and of
themselves, are a paltry reason to be Jewish. After all, do you dare
suggest there aren't moral and ethical gentiles? The suggestion that
Judaism can be reduced to being moral and ethical is, quite frankly, a
quite racist suggestion, by virtue of this implied aspersion against
gentiles.)

Now, there IS such a thing as "Jewish" culture, but it isn't the
sciences and arts. Unfortunately, as you say, "...many Jews are
becoming atheist and dismissing their heritage." However, this isn't
recent; it's been happening since 19th century Germany(but the French Alliance Israelite Universelle can be credited with destroying Sefardic (Middle Eastern) Jewry), and it continues in Jewry to this day, both in Israel and the Diaspora.

So
yes, I do advocate liquidating the diaspora. If we're going to abandon
our culture and history, and culturally assimilate, let's at least do
it in our homeland, so that we have no one else into whom to physically
assimilate.

For most non-Jews, the secular Jewish culture I mentioned is the main thing they like an appreciate.  And for you to say that the arts are not a part of Jewish culture is a tad shy of insane.

 It's kind of like saying soul food or jazz is not connected with African American culture.

 "So yes, I do advocate liquidating the diaspora. If we're going to abandon our culture and history, and culturally assimilate, let's at least do it in our homeland, so that we have no one else into whom to physically assimilate." 

 I was born in America and do not consider Israel my homeland.  And glasss-eyed "true believers" like you have made it harder and harder to accept or even defend anything Israel is doing to protect itself.

If Israel were to have launched truly strategic strikes against rocket launch locations, maybe I'd accept this. Decimating whole cities and not giving refugees and escape route is sick, cruel and no part of the Jewish culture I was raised in can accept that.

 Please, though, continue to disparage the Diaspora culture that has made a popular cultural impact throughout the centuries.  The idea anyone can call themselves Jewish and dismiss that is simply sick.  Because you will not win any friends or allies by bombing people into oblivion.

 Here's to hoping true Jewish liberalism makes a resurgence in the middle of this mess. 

Mike, with deepest sorrow, and from the depths of my heart, I have to tell you, I am so sorry for you. You are lost in a brainwashed world of true evil. The people who train you are still trying to recreate the equivalent of the Nazi youth, and you are a glaring example of this. God help us all if this is the new Israeli generation. May God have mercy on us.

Facts are stubborn things

Jack: How is Israel supposed to launch "strategic strikes"? You do
realize that the Qasams are launched out of residential backyards and
hospital parking lots, don't you? That's exactly why the war was so
difficult for Israel to fight to the world's satisfaction; Hamas
**deliberately** places their military resources in residential and
civilian areas, in order that Israel has no choice but to either bomb
civilian zones, or surrender to Hamas. Note that Hamas is blatantly
violating the Geneva Conventions in this.

A question: if a terrorist uses a human shield, and the human
shield gets killed, who is to blame? The terrorist, or the officer who
aimed for the terrorist and accidently kills the innocent human shield?
I think we'll all agree the terrorist is to blame. So why do you blame
Israel for accidentally hitting civilians, when it was Hamas who
deliberately located their military resources in proximity to those
civilians in the first place? And note that this is an explicit
violation of the Geneva Conventions by Hamas.

And Jack, you
speak of Diasporic culture having been influential for the past
centuries. I'm sorry, but it's only barely centuries (i.e. plural);
only since the Enlightenment, some 200 years ago (i.e. two centuries -
just barely plural), has that been Jewish culture. You're ignoring 3500
years of Jewish culture, in favor of a substitute that is only 200
years old.

Like I said, I have nothing against Diasporic Jewish
culture; I'm as proud of Israel having produced the Pentium M
technology as the next Jew is. And certainly, it is a truly wonderful
thing for Jews to be involved in modern culture, society, and
civilization - don't get mew wrong.

But this is a very poor
thing to build your entire identity on. When your culture is really
nothing more than matzah balls, latkes, being ethical (gentiles cannot
be ethical?), and assorted Jewish comedians and artists, this is hardly
something that I'd like to base my life course on. If this is Jewish
culture, I'll gladly dispense with it, and just be a plain American,
without all the extra encumbering baggage of antisemitism and shul. 

Remember,
we're talking about something that goes (or ought to go) to the very
core of your being, of your very identity, of your very weltanschauung.

---

Reality_Check: The people who train me? No one is
training me. There's no youth movement I belong to, there's no club I'm
a member of, there's no organization I belong to. And I'll be amazed if
I represent the new Israeli generation, seeing as how  I've only lived
here only 2.5 years, and don't even speak fluent Hebrew yet.

And
if defending oneself against those sworn to destroy, against those
who'd just as soon explode your cafes and buses, makes me "lost in a
brainwashed world of true evil", then I'll gladly wear that badge. It's
better than committing suicide in the cowardice of Stockholm's
Syndrome, as you would have it.

Jack: How is Israel supposed to launch "strategic strikes"? You do
realize that the Qasams are launched out of residential backyards and
hospital parking lots, don't you? That's exactly why the war was so
difficult for Israel to fight to the world's satisfaction; Hamas
**deliberately** places their military resources in residential and
civilian areas, in order that Israel has no choice but to either bomb
civilian zones, or surrender to Hamas. Note that Hamas is blatantly
violating the Geneva Conventions in this.

A question: if a terrorist uses a human shield, and the human
shield gets killed, who is to blame? The terrorist, or the officer who
aimed for the terrorist and accidently kills the innocent human shield?
I think we'll all agree the terrorist is to blame. So why do you blame
Israel for accidentally hitting civilians, when it was Hamas who
deliberately located their military resources in proximity to those
civilians in the first place? And note that this is an explicit
violation of the Geneva Conventions by Hamas.

And Jack, you
speak of Diasporic culture having been influential for the past
centuries. I'm sorry, but it's only barely centuries (i.e. plural);
only since the Enlightenment, some 200 years ago (i.e. two centuries -
just barely plural), has that been Jewish culture. You're ignoring 3500
years of Jewish culture, in favor of a substitute that is only 200
years old.

Like I said, I have nothing against Diasporic Jewish
culture; I'm as proud of Israel having produced the Pentium M
technology as the next Jew is. And certainly, it is a truly wonderful
thing for Jews to be involved in modern culture, society, and
civilization - don't get mew wrong.

But this is a very poor
thing to build your entire identity on. When your culture is really
nothing more than matzah balls, latkes, being ethical (gentiles cannot
be ethical?), and assorted Jewish comedians and artists, this is hardly
something that I'd like to base my life course on. If this is Jewish
culture, I'll gladly dispense with it, and just be a plain American,
without all the extra encumbering baggage of antisemitism and shul. 

Remember,
we're talking about something that goes (or ought to go) to the very
core of your being, of your very identity, of your very weltanschauung.

---

Reality_Check: The people who train me? No one is
training me. There's no youth movement I belong to, there's no club I'm
a member of, there's no organization I belong to. And I'll be amazed if
I represent the new Israeli generation, seeing as how  I've only lived
here only 2.5 years, and don't even speak fluent Hebrew yet.

And
if defending oneself against those sworn to destroy, against those
who'd just as soon explode your cafes and buses, makes me "lost in a
brainwashed world of true evil", then I'll gladly wear that badge. It's
better than committing suicide in the cowardice of Stockholm's
Syndrome, as you would have it.

And no, the sentence, "I have nothing against Diasporic Jewish culture; I'm as proud of Israel having produced the Pentium M technology as the next Jew is" does NOT contain an internal contradiction. Think carefully.

"But this is a very poor thing to build your entire identity on."

 And I think you're missing the point where practically everyone has expressed their belief that you can and should be an Israeli if you want to but the issue here is your desire to "liquidate the diaspora..." and tell others their approach to Judaism is wrong to such an extreme degree.

 It comes down to this: Israel needs to get over itself as the "homeland" and simply exist as a Jewish state that accepts there are other Jews who choose not to participate in it.

There are Spanish Americans, African Americans, Chinese Americans, but you really don't hear the phrase Jewish American. 

 Maybe you don't get it, but Jewish culture has not survived and thrived because of isolated communities but because of respectful assimilation into other communities.

The path you are on suggests that intermarriage is a sin—and boy, us Jews have had that hammered into our heads from day one—and the only solution is basically isolating oneself from the world and inbreeding.

 "The people who train me? No one is training me."

You might not be conscious of your brainwashing, but as someone who has met dozens if not hundreds of people like you over the years, your views are not that original but based in the same robotic rhetoric.

"And note that this is an explicit violation of the Geneva Conventions by Hamas."

FWIW, many Israeli soldiers have been involved in war crimes that easilly violate the  Geneva Conventions but the Israeli government refuses to bring them to trial.

Last I checked, only 3 Israeli citizens and 10 Israeli soldiers died in these rocket attacks while 1,300 Gazans are dead.  Israel has lost it's effing mind and deserves the scathing criticism it deserves.  And lets face facts: Without U.S. backing and military support Israel would not have the military it has now.  So there goes your theory of liquidating the Diaspora.  Because without the Diaspora,  who do you think would be lobbying for aid outside of Israel.

are the evangelical Christian right, not American Jews.

The only society other than modern society in which Jews intermixed and intermarried in large numbers was ancient Greece, and the Jews there disappeared.  Your theory about how Jews survive is in direct opposition to the historical facts.

You don't have to like facts just because they are facts.  Bagel Judaism is dead.  Perhaps with it's passing, you want the Jews to disappear as a group.  You are entitled to wish that you could marry an Awsome Shiksa, work hard either to support her Church or to undercut the Jewish people, and get everyone to understand what a great Jew you are.  But you'd still be undercutting the Jewish people.

The communities outside of Israel that are growing aren't the disappering secularists, but the Orthodox.  And not all Orthodox Jews are super-Zionists.  My cousins who are Orthdox certainly have no plans to move to Israel.   My family has been in this country a long time, and we intend to stay here.   Will the great-grandchildren be American Jews?  Time will tell.

I believe today, as I have for decades, that the settlers on the West Bank will be the end of Israel, because annexing that land will lead to a minority Jewish population.  In the end, though, that's up to Israel, not me.  I also believe that Hamas will never settle for a two-state solution, and when there were free and fair elections, the Palestinian Arabs elected Hamas.  Leftists try to discount this, but I tend to believe people when they say they believe something.  Hamas's supporters are not secretly dialectical materialists.

I confess I have no clear overall position, and my views of the facts do no lead me to an easy or obvious solution.

Barbara, if what you are saying is true then every single Jew in the world should be victims of diseases related directly to insular inbreeding.  One need not look any further than deep Orthodox communities to find children being born with conditions that are genetically connected to inbreeding.

"Bagel Judaism is dead."

Really?  It's dying but people miss it.  Heck I know more than a few African Americans who love traditional Yid food than most Jews I know. How come we have so little respect for that?

I mean I can walk anywhere in NYC and get a slice of pizza, but that doesn't mean Italian culture is weakened.  There are whole different levels of that culture that lives and thrives.

 In Judaism, you have more self-hatred than you can believe.  Take for example my sister who was a member of a  beautiful reform synagogues that was torn down to make way for condos.  Here's the kicker.  Her kids went there.  She went to Temple every week.  And when news of the place being torn down was made, I made offers to help her Temple out of the mess.  If not save the Temple, help save the amazing stained glass windows.  Her response? A passive/aggressive "No..."  Ditto with other members there. She did eventually come around to suggesting I can help by photographing the place.  But when I did so she dismissed many of my efforts.  Long story short, on the one hand she and her fellow members were sad to see it go but barely made any effort to really help keep it alive.

 I'm starting to think that self-hatred is something more deeply ingrained in Judaism than one could imagine.

Because right now I see an America that voted an African American into the presidency.  And I see African Americans accepting their American roots as well as their African heritage and not having too many conflicts.  And on the other hand I'm getting yelled at or passively shunned by fellow Jews for even daring to suggest we're dismissing a rich Yiddishkeit past for what?  For a life that ignores the Jews outside of Israel and Israelis who continually give heaping piles of crap to anyone who dares question their behavior.

Sorry folks, but Israel's behavior in Gaza after the debacle of the U.S. Iraq War (newsflash: it was all a lie and has done nothing positive for anyone) and even after America healing with this new election is 100% sick and an embarrassment.  And yes, the evangelical Christian right supports Israel.  It's their belief this conflict will result in the Rapture.  How wonderful to know that Israel is being manipulated like an abused child to help a magical invisible man the sky to create a religious event that will destroy the world!

Sick, sick, sick stuff. 

Barbara: Thank you for clarifying an important issue.

I conflated Israel and being religious, but, as you pointed out, the two are far from being synonymous.

It is my personal opinion that the Orthodox too are quite in error for not being more Zionistic, alongside their being religious. But be that as it may, the two should not be conflated. Being Jewish is both a religion and a peoplehood, and while the two are both integral to being Jewish, the two are from being identical. I thank Barbara for pointing this out.

In abandoning Israel as a nationality, we've abandoned our peoplehood.

In abandoning Judaism as a religion, we've abandoned our culture and history.

Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner, an early 20th century Hungarian Orthodox Zionist, said (http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/zionism.html), "It is clear, then, that anyone who does not believe in
the future of the Jewish people in its historical homeland twists the
Torah from its plain meaning. That is why when a Gentile comes to
convert to Judaism he must first pledge solidarity with the Jewish
people, as in the words of Ruth the Moabite: "Your people shall
be my people, and your G-d my G-d" (Ruth 1:16). My opinion,
then, is that the proclamation that it is possible to belong to the
Jewish faith while also belonging to the Hungarian, German, or Slavic
nationalities is absolute heresy and that the prohibition against
such heresy is of such severity that one is obligated to be killed
rather than to transgress (yei'hareig v'al ya'avor). I therefore
cannot understand how our rabbis, the leaders of the Hungarian
Orthodox Jewish community could have officially announced that the
Orthodox Jews uphold Judaism as a religious community, but that they
have nothing to do with the Judaism as a nationality, that they see
themselves as Hungarians of the first rank and perceive no
distinction between themselves and the ethnic Hungarians except their
religion. In the annals of the Jewish people this proclamation will
remain as a disgraceful, indelible stain on Hungarian Orthodoxy."

It might be noted that Rabbi Glasner has history on his side; the idea that Judaism is only a religion and not a nationality, was actually invented by 19th century German Reform Jews. That the Hungarian Orthodox Jews accepted this notion is simply astounding.

(An aside: Rabbi Marc D. Angel (the prominent rav of the Sefardi shul Shearith Israel in New York), based on Ruth's "your people will be my people", has emphasized that conversion to Judaism requires a firm committment to belonging to the Jewish people per se.) 

I don't think I'd go so far as Rabbi Glasner does, that one is obligated to give his life rather than profess a non-Israeli nationality. In fact, I'd rather go with Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch (19th century German Orthodox) that one can certainly be a warm and patriotic member of his host nation (see http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/humanisim_rsrh.pdf), BUT, one would have to remember that first and foremost, he is a Jew. He is not a "German of the Mosaic persuasion", but rather, he is a "Jew of the Germanic persuasion"; the question is which is primary and which is secondary. 

Believe you me, I am quite proud of my having lived in America, and I still have quite warm feelings for America. But I've staked my claim where the primary claim lies - in Israel.

I'll disagree with Barbara on one crucial point, however: she holds that the West Bank settlers are destroying Israel, but I'll say quite the opposite; I believe it is the opponents of the settlers that are destroying Israel, but that is another discussion.

--------

Jack, you say, "Barbara, if what you are saying is true then every single Jew in the
world should be victims of diseases related directly to insular
inbreeding.  One need not look any further than deep Orthodox
communities to find children being born with conditions that are
genetically connected to inbreeding."

Please.

Being Orthodox doesn't mean you have to inbreed with your cousin. These particular Orthodox communities refuse to marry outside their immediate relatives (not brothers and sisters, G-d forbid, but we're talking cousins, etc.).  Sometimes, they will marry non-relatives, but they'll only marry people in their own closed ideological circles, such as those with the same Hasidic rebbe. Obviously, this means that everyone is related to everyone else in multiple ways. But this is their own personal delusion and error and sin, and Orthodoxy per se is not obligated to hold by it.

There are 15 million Jews on earth. There are more than enough to avoid inbreeding. We don't need to marry gentiles to avoid inbreeding. Just marry someone who doesn't come from your neighborhood.

Reality_Check: I will agree with you that there are movements within Judaism that push a supremacist ideology. But please don't conflate that with Naziism to prove your point.  Israel is guilty of oppressing the Palestinians, but if this oppression had a genocidal goal in mind, the Palestinian population would have dwindled since 1967, not grown exponentially.  You may have passionate regard for justice and human dignity and you may be disgusted by monolithic Jewish apologists, but a little modulation is still in order.  No matter how you slice it, Jews ain't Nazis.

 Now Miguel Dwindle: If you've lived in Israel for 2.5 years and still don't speak fluent Hebrew, you are either sequestered with Americans, not applying yourself, or both. If you can access any mental flexibility, please note that you still say that Palestinian leaders, though you don't know which ones, view Tel Aviv the same as Nablus and then you turn around and say that Kahane shouldn't be judged by his followers' actions. That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth.  You are going down a dark path with a sinister agenda.  It happens and you'll probably continue to gravitate toward an "education" that gives you a sense of validity that you never felt in the Diaspora.  This is also known as an ego trip, only in the case of Kahanites, it's one that perverts morality by claiming the authority to value some human lives over others.  Your talking points are stupid and the ideology you are adopting is homicidal.  And, to crane toward relevance, nastiness like this is how Avigdor Lieberman has become popular.  But he's still scum.

Always has been.   Reform Judaism was an attempt to bring Judaism into modernity.  I agree that it largely failed, yet some of it's ideas (a sermon, for example) have been adopted by some parts of Orthodoxy to good effect.  Reform itself, however, seems to have became a path to self-hatred and assimilation ending in an end to Judaism for the decendents of the Reform Jew.  A recent study of the descendants of Isaac Meyer Wise and Hirsh showed that only about four of the over-1000 decendent's of Reform's founder self-identified as Jews, and two of the four was the child of one of the four who had married an Orthodox Jew.  In contrast, over half of the over 1000 descendents of Hirsh self-identified as Jews, and more than 1/3 were observant.

I agree that it's a pity that bagel Judaism is dead.  That doesn't raise it from the dead.  Like a Reuban sandwich, it is a root with new, non-Jewish branches grafted on and growing from it's strenghts.  That's OK.  That spreads Jewish ideas into the greater world.  But going that route is not preserving Judaism.

Mike, demographics are like gravity.  The science may not be exactly right, but it's still not a good idea to step off a high cliff and see if you can avoid falling by not looking down.  You don't live in a cartoon.

You are right. Sometimes we all get too emotional. But thank you for still being fair. I appreciate it.

Facts are stubborn things

Mike, inbreeding, sexual abuse and other destructive behavior thrives in closed Orthodox communities. Heck, as I was typing this WNYC in NYC was airing a promo for a show about just that topic.  Who knew!

It exists, it's real, it destroys and most people who abandon Orthodoxy don't do so because of great religious dissonance, but rather issues with basic human rights and getting sick if the culture that accepts such abuse in the community.

This ties straight into the issue of the Diaspora because as long as there is a hard-line division that sees the Diaspora as an anomaly and Israel as the only solution, you're basically breeding people who either (1) disown their heritage to live as free/secular people or (2) people who resign their lives to closeted abuse in Orthodoxy.

Judaism needs to evolve and embrace the global Diaspora and stop stigmatizing it. 

Jack, my point is that I'm NOT advocating closed Orthodox communities. Believe you me, I believe they're as despicable and reprehensible as the next. Ideologically, I have very little in common with Haredi Judaism, perhaps less than I have with many atheists.

So avoiding intermarriage doesn't mean marrying your cousin. There are plenty of Jews to go around, who aren't cosanguinous, that one need not marry a non-Jew in order to have genetically sound children. 15 million people is more than enough to have a healthily diverse gene pool.

So please, let's ignore those who deliberately go beyond not marrying a gentile, and go so far as to not marry anyone outside their own family tree.

Please don't erect a straw man.

Brian, most people say it takes about ten years to gain fluency in Hebrew. I know plenty of people who've lived in exclusively Hebrew-speaking environments for several years, and still aren't fluent in Hebrew.

Now then, about being disingenous:

My point is that I don't think Rav Kahane's followers are representative of Rav Kahane's own views. I've heard some of the actions performed by Kach and Kahane Hai, and I'm as disgusted as many others here are. (Ask me about my feelings on the Goldstein massacre in Hebron. In short, I certainly believe it was no small sin.)

I am personally acquainted with Rav Kahane's son-in-law, and while I've never discussed this issue with him, I'll note that I've never heard words from his mouth that approached the sort you'll hear out of Rav Kahane's followers.

In other words: I'm following Rav Kahane, not his followers. And Rav Kahane said that the worst thing, besides the death of a Jew, is the death of an Arab - in other words, as he himself explicitly said, we'd rather not kill any Arabs unless we have no other choice, and every time we have to kill an Arab, surely and sincerely pains our hearts. Apposite this are Golda Meir's words, "We can perhaps forgive you for killing our children, but we can never forgive us for forcing us to kill yours". Unfortunately, as Golda Meir said, "There will be no peace until the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours".

I disagree whole-heartedly with you that Kahane (and Levinger to an even greater extent) bear no responsibility for Baruch Goldstein's actions. 

FWIW, this is pretty interesting.

I hadn't seen that. Thanks. 

Facts are stubborn things

Mike you obviously haven't been called up to Tzahal yet!

I spent roughly 2 and a half years in Israel with alot of Americans and other 'Anglo-Saxim' in close proximity. After a 6 month Ulpan I was just about ok with the most basic of conversational Hebrew.

Once I was drafted....within weeks I was getting fluent. Without a doubt it is the best way to learn Hebrew fast. But if you have 10 years......

FWIW Lieberman's 'success' in these elections is indicative of the mess Israel is in domestically. Not since Kahane have we had to deal with such a menace to our own democracy. Members of the Knesset - change the electoral system now!

Guilty as charged. I'm
1) ...not the combat sort.  I wrestled for several years in middle and high school, and what I learned is that I have the physique and I can learn the moves, but I cannot muster the psychological state necessary for hostile physical confrontation with another human being. I simply don't have it in me.
2) ...reticent to join the IDF so long as such spectres as the Gaza withdrawal and the Federman demolition are still casting their shadows, without resolution. If Hesder soldiers had to be lied to in order to ensure their complicity with Federman, then I'll have no part. The IDF seems to be on the fine line of changing its name to Arab Defense Force, and were I drafted, I'd most likely immediately refuse any and all orders.

Now, truth be told, I'd be willing to serve in some role whose morality cannot be so easily compromised by the corrupt-powers-that-be; were I a combat medic, for example, I cannot imagine any objections I'd have to any orders given. That is, any individuals IDF soldiers are innocent of the charges I'm leveling at the IDF per se, and certainly there'd be no grounds whatsoever for me to refuse them medical care, based on the sins of the IDF. But somehow, I doubt the IDF leadership has the sagacity to realize that I'd be more useful as a medic than as a criminal in prison (for refusing orders). So I'll sit this one out, at least until we have a responsible, sane government (Feiglin is my pick).

If Rav Kahane was a threat to Israeli democracy (pray tell how; he didn't rig the elections like Netanyahu recently did), then Olmert-Livni is the greatest threat to the State of Israel qua a functioning living state.

And if demanding that Arabs pledge loyalty to the state is anti-democratic, then we really need to revise our definition of "democracy". I never learned in AP US Government and Politics that democracy means abetting the pledged and avowed fifth-column.

As for my Hebrew, part of the problem is that I'm a visual learner rather than an auditory one. I can read Hebrew better than many of the people coming out of ulpan, but I can't speak for beans.

Guilty as charged. I'm
1) ...not the combat sort.  I wrestled for several years in middle and high school, and what I learned is that I have the physique and I can learn the moves, but I cannot muster the psychological state necessary for hostile physical confrontation with another human being. I simply don't have it in me.
2) ...reticent to join the IDF so long as such spectres as the Gaza withdrawal and the Federman demolition are still casting their shadows, without resolution. If Hesder soldiers had to be lied to in order to ensure their complicity with Federman, then I'll have no part. The IDF seems to be on the fine line of changing its name to Arab Defense Force, and were I drafted, I'd most likely immediately refuse any and all orders.

Now, truth be told, I'd be willing to serve in some role whose morality cannot be so easily compromised by the corrupt-powers-that-be; were I a combat medic, for example, I cannot imagine any objections I'd have to any orders given. That is, any individuals IDF soldiers are innocent of the charges I'm leveling at the IDF per se, and certainly there'd be no grounds whatsoever for me to refuse them medical care, based on the sins of the IDF. But somehow, I doubt the IDF leadership has the sagacity to realize that I'd be more useful as a medic than as a criminal in prison (for refusing orders). So I'll sit this one out, at least until we have a responsible, sane government (Feiglin is my pick).

If Rav Kahane was a threat to Israeli democracy (pray tell how; he didn't rig the elections like Netanyahu recently did), then Olmert-Livni is the greatest threat to the State of Israel qua a functioning living state.

And if demanding that Arabs pledge loyalty to the state is anti-democratic, then we really need to revise our definition of "democracy". I never learned in AP US Government and Politics that democracy means abetting the pledged and avowed fifth-column.

As for my Hebrew, part of the problem is that I'm a visual learner rather than an auditory one. I can read Hebrew better than many of the people coming out of ulpan, but I can't speak for beans.

I will forever (with G-d's help), however, be unable to comprehend
the excitement many have when they enter the IDF. Every few months,
another of my classmates enters the IDF, and invariably, he'll be quite
excited and enthusiastic. I still fail to understand how anyone can be
excited to enter a situation that'll necessitate killing another human
being, even justifiably so. "If a man comes to kill you, kill him
first" may be true, but if we learn anything during Pesah, it's that we
ought to be crying over this.

(I'm speaking of our removing ten
drops of wine, one for each plague A similar custom, less widely known,
is that we say full Hallel only on the first day of Pesah. On the last
day of Pesah, we say only half Hallel, because that's the day the
Egyptians drowned. During the intermediate days of Pesah, we also say
half Hallel, because we don't want the lesser intermediate days of
Pesah to have a higher Hallel than the final Yom Tov. So because of our
sorrow over the Egyptians drowning, we say one full Hallel and
six/seven (Israel/Diaspora) half Hallels on Pesah.)

I'm also
stymied as to how ideologically, they can still support the IDF, but
they're all similarly stymied as to how I can be so vociferously
opposed to the IDF. So be it.

All I know is, once we have someone
like Kahane and Feiglin in power, we'll, with G-d's help, have no more
reason to kill anyone. The Jews will be on one side, the Arabs on the
other, and the bloodshed will cease. That's what I'm living for. Let us
sit under our vine and fig tree with no one to vex us, and let the
Arabs do the same - that's what Kahane would have brought, and what
Feiglin will.

Cross-posted from http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/03/ulpan-hebrew-lessons-for-israe...

Ulpan for Israelis

Today we begin teaching Hebrew to Israelis.

Lesson 1:

When an American says "L'at bevaksha" לאט בבקשה (lit. "Slowly please"), this means, "Please speak Hebrew to me slowly, because I'm still learning, and I do want to learn Hebrew, but I'm not at your level yet". It does NOT mean, "Please speak English to me".

On the other hand, if said American says, "B'anglit bevakasha" באנגלית בבקשה (lit. "In English please"), then you may speak English to him!

---

Seriously though, I don't understand it. Every time an Israeli speaks to me, I say to him, "L'at bevakasha", and then he'll switch to English. These Israelis refuse to speak Hebrew to me, and yet they constantly castigate ME for refusing to speak Hebrew to them, and they wonder why Hebrew is still difficult for me!

Just a few minutes ago, an Israeli walks up to me, and starts asking me something. But since he's speaking too quickly for me to understand, I say to him, "L'at bevakasha". He replies, "Sliha, ani lo medaber anglit" ("Sorry, I don't speak English"), and he walks away. He may not speak English, but he apparently doesn't speak Hebrew either!