Abe Foxman: Bigotry is Fine By Me

Hagee is hardly a white Farrakhan--an unsupportable allegation.

 Foxman is no friend of mine but he is clearly correct to happily count Hagee as a friend of the Jewish people and the state of Israel.  It is completely wrong to say that Hagee supports Israel only in so far as he wishes it to be destroyed by Iran--this is unsupported by anything Hagee has ever said and Hagee has been truly sympathetic to Israel's needs to protect itself from Iran's hostile intentions.  This is the worst kind of contortion of the truth. 

Daniel will not stop to see the EVIDENCE.  The American Jewish right supports Hagee.  The Jewish left--as epitomized by liberal Foxman supports Hagee.  Israelis support Hagee right, lest and center.Only Daniel and his band of mavens are out to smear this fine man who is in the mainstream of America. 

I have challenged Daniel time and again to indicate at least one point that leads him to fairly characterize Hagee as a bigot.   If he has a problem with the Catholic church, this is not bigotry unless it is followed with action, hostility or something.  By this standard, all religionists are bigots since they all dislike someone--Protestants and Catholics notoriously have harsh words to say to one another.  Further, the fact our nation faces a specific threat from Islamacists gives many millions of Americans reason to criticize the hate filled ideology which lies ot the heart of Islamic rejection of Western society--self-defense is not at all the same as bigotry.

Daniel goes on and on to claim Foxman must be a bigot, all Jews must be bigots since we appreciate Hagee, I must be a bigot.  McCain is part of the "hate-express" since he kindly accepts the endorsement of Hagee--McCain is a bigot.  Young Daniel, whose father must be asking Yale for a refund of all his money--- the fact that Obama is beloved and endorsed by genuine bigots all over the world does not register with Daniel.  Please wake up.

Sorry, Daniel.   It is **SPECIFICALLY** the man who screams BIGOT at someone who is not at all a bigot who has a problem with bigotry. It ain't McCain and Hagee who need the lecture.

David, you really have a way of turning logic on its head.  Hagee is a freakshow.  If you appreciate his brand of hatred and bigotry, then you deserve him.  I hope you live happily ever after.

If someone calls the Catholic church "the Great Whore" and "the Antichrist," it is pure bigotry, not some arcane theological dispute. You can pretend not to know anything about the history of anti-Catholic bigotry in the US, or you could spend 5 minutes with Google. Either way, arguing with you is like arguing with someone who insists 1+1=3. It's just not worth the time.

Do you want Hagee to remain small time, do you want his followers to be aimless when he's gone? Then stop talking him up--or down--or sideways. All this does is give him publicity, which he converts into cash, which goes where you don't want it to go. (Folks, there is Jewish website, they say they are Jewish, but here are some quotes directly from this site....If they can't stand up for Israel then we have to do it. I want you to dig into your pockets to stand up for the land of Jesus' birth.....) Like I said, I've never heard one word from the man--so if even I could write his sermon, he's a professional, think what he can do.

Farrakhan does the same thing, converts negative publicity into cash. Every so often, when needed, in a very judicious way, say something--but this daily pounding, if the pattern holds true, will only help him.

At least wait until after the conventions, when it's McCain vs Your Guess is As Good As Mine.

Daniel, I might hope you have the decency to consider your follies.  You have not even thought for a moment about what you are saying--you simply regurgitate a bigoted reaction to a decent man without any evidence.  Is it really your job as a Jew to get so wrapped up over whether or not a prominent Christian Zionist has ever said something negative about Catholics?  Is this important to you? By contrast, might you wish to read on this Jewcy blog what so many liberal Jews have to say about Orthodox Jews--far more venomous?  

I do not give John Hagee much thought--you have brought forward this gigantic smear campaign and I cannot let it stand.  I bring WHY you are wrong-headed and you say nothing in response--you just want an empty smear to stand.  But this reflects so poorly on you and I just cannot fathom why you have so little at stake in being thoughtful or willing to take a moment to understand why everyone DISAGREES with you.

You headline Abe Foxman, another liberal Jew who spent an entire career trying to smear Pat Robertson, another pro-Israel Christian.  Might you think for a second why even Abe Foxman, the great anti-Christian who invented your pathetic bigoted party line--is now recanting over John Hagee?  Foxman finally was convinced Christian Zionists are not only our friends, they are also non-toxic. You can be convinced as well if you break out of your tunnel vision to seek some coherent arguments.

Perhaps I can direct you to the Jerusalem Post website concerning today's vicious terror attack in Jerusalem.  Read the responses from concerned Christian Americans who stand so strongly with Israel.  Who are these people and where did they come from?  In significant amounts, they are from the power and influence of John Hagee who has done so much to transform the Christians in America from their doctrine of replacement theology to a doctrine of Christian Zionism.  David Brog, a somewhat liberal Jew, similar to yourself, wrote the book sponsored by Hagee "Standing with Israel."  Jacob Neusner writes  glowing praise for the book.  The issue is not some single book, it is the *reality* of American Christian support for Israel and fellowship with Jews which has nothing to do with old-fashioned replacement theology which has been largely stricken from the evangelical world.

If you would only take a moment to catch up on 40 years of history, you will notice that there is a substantial change--it is sincere and positive and should not be smeared with attacks founded in nothing but ignorance.

After you calm down and take that moment, please apologize to John Hagee and the millions of evangelicals he has brought to a place divorced from the antiquated myths you reference in your screed.

Barack Obama endorsed by the militant racist anti-semitic black supremacist group.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGrXCt

What!  A militant black group is endorsing a black candidate instead of endorsing a white woman and white septuagenarian male!  That does it, this proves Barack is an anti-semite!

Daniel, for several weeks you have been shoving Obama down
our throats, which if that is the editorial position of Jewcy, so be it. Your
attacks on John Hagee show a lack of serious thought. You keep calling Hagee an
anti-Semite. You look foolish to anyone familiar with this man. He is far from
an anti-Semite. His latest book, In Defense of Israel is a clear and
simply shows that you know nothing of this man. Now, if you believe that he
only loves Israel
because of the book of Revelations, then you are the bigot and not he. There
tends to be a lot of bigotry by Jews against Christians and your posts on John
Hagee reads as such. As Jews, it should not matter what the Christians believe
about one another. Your defense of the Catholics is matched by the hatred of
many of our grandparents towards the Catholics because of the Church’s
pre-Vatican II teachings. Regardless, John Hagee and many evangelicals truly
love Israel and
the Jews, we need to stop worrying where that love comes from and start simply
respecting these people. Read Zev Chafets’ book A Match Made in Heaven:
American Jews, Christian Zionists, and One Man's Exploration of the Weird and
Wonderful Judeo-Evangelical Alliance.

Jeffrey, pick up a history book one of these days.  You'll see that persuasive men like Hagee can aim their hate at any group they want, and they will convince their flock to follow like salivating street dogs.  Today he aims his venom primarily at Catholics, Muslims, and homosexuals.  Tomorrow, who knows who.  Hitching your wagon to this type of pony is not a good idea.  If history has done nothing else, it has taught us this much: extremists cannot be trusted!

which is why you cannot trust someone who is endorsed by the biggoted extremist Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

That someone Jewish would actually be defending catholics.lol

Jeffrey, let's assume you're right that I have no obligation to care about hatred of gay people, Muslims, and Catholics as a Jew. How about as a person?

Daniel, you have made no case against Hagee, no argument.  You have only made accusations based in raw prejudice.

Hagee can very legitimately be opposed to homosexual marriage and very legitimately be opposed to Muslim fanatics.  This is neither hatred nor bigotry.

Yes, you have an obligation to care.  Is Hagee pro-American and ready to stand up for America--yes or no?  Is he pro-Israel and ready to stand up for Judaism and the Jews--yes or no? Is Hagee aligned with radicals or the mainstream?  Does Hagee support moderates like McCain and garner praise from liberals like Foxman--yes or no?

Have you spent even one moment lookikng at the question--can you really claim to honest in your indictment of Foxman and McCain over a man like Hagee whose only "crime" is his dogged support and outreach to Israel and the Jewish people?

I have given so much argument and you will not respond with anything to justify your position in this case and so many others.  You typify the bias of the Jewcy blog writers--you feel the way you do and will defend none of it.  You are right only in your own eyes but this sense of rightness has no defense, no effort to persuade and no argument, only bias. 

David Friedman, if you'd like some information on what Hagee has written and said, go to Talk to Action. There are many articles at this site that quote Hagee and his books, and they demonstrate what Koffler is saying.

Hagee's anti-Catholicism is not simply that he is a Protestant and disagrees with Catholic theology (which Jews wouldn't necessarily care about at all). Instead, he traffics in the purest kind of anti-Catholic bigotry, calling the Catholic church the "Whore of Babylon." If we Jews are asking for tolerance from Christians, it behooves us to show tolerance towards them as well, especially by not tolerating this kind of bigoted language.

Rebecca

Mystical Politics

Thanks, Rebecca for the links and be assured I read all of it.

There is very little new to me since I know the subject.  Concerning Hagee's desire to bring Christianity to Israel--these attempts are met with stern opposition and I support that opposition.  Does that make Hagee a bad guy in some way?  I submit "no."  He has every right to his theology in the same way that the Jewcy editors have a right to free speech, even if much of liberal-speak is so laden with contempt and self-hatred.  A critic could easily call such language "anti-semitic" in its tone--I would not use this term since I find the barrier to the accusation pretty high.  But a reasonable person could easily see the Jewcy blog site as one which attempts to bring Jews away from Judaism.

Hagee, by contrast, implores Jews to be more Jewish and this is laudable. 

Regarding the hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel who lead totally secular lives, absent success from Jewish educators, Hagee wants those people to be good Christians. Note that in the Christian evangelical community, there are several well known born Jews who have converted to Christianity--for example Marvin Lansky who edits World Magazine and Jay Sekelow.  If you ask what is better--should Marvin and Jay stay among the Jews, in disbelief and taking more Jews away from Judaism  or is it better that they take what they have to be exemplary Christians?  From my perspective, Sekelow and Lansky are still Jews and it is better that they are practicing Christians since they represent the best of Christianity.  It is quite another matter for Christians to market Christianity wholesale in the Jewish state--this cannot happen and that is a difference.  The fact that they want to do this is no shame on them--they simply believe their product--high-quality Christianity--is better than a secular existence.  Since some of these secular Jews will in fact come back to Judaism, we need to protect our people.  So we disagree.  Christians convert to Judaism and when that happens, I cannot recall a single instance when a Christian has stood up to protest.

Your link that has Bill Donahoe of the Catholic league having no problem with Hagee adequately supports my point and defeats Daniel's claim.  That Daniel is offended on behalf of Catholics and Catholics are not offended is some headline. 

Hagee's end of times beliefs are significantly influenced by traditional Jewish sources.  This specific theological belief concerning future events cannot hold danger for our community. By contrast, the perverted theology of Islam concerning their theology is a grave threat since it may well set in motion real events which can impact the world at large.  It is tragic if you refuse to see how a warped theology is dangerous while another is passive.  Who cares if Christians think that Moshiach will be the second coming of a messiah who did not even appear the first time!!  If someone friendly and supportive of Jews believes that when Moshiach comes, every man and woman will get a lollipop and a nice cigar--why is this important?  Hagee sees the Iran threat in the SAME way as most Israelis and Jewish leaders.

As for Iraq--having a theological belief does not substitute for  also having more pressing and factual reasons.  If your husband thinks you have a very beautiful face and say that, this does not diminish that there are plenty of other reasons why he committed himself to you.  Simply because Hagee theorized at some point in his life that there might be theological reasons for removing Iraq's dictator from power--this in no invalidates the very important down to earth reasons for going to war with Islamacists in Iraq that meets the sober and vital national security interests of the United States.

Please tell me where I have failed to be persuasive. 

Rebecca, in re-reading Hagee's complaint concerning Catholics--it is strongly centered on the Church's role in the Holocaust.  In this way, Hagee strongly mirrors the thoughts of many Jews, including Goldhagen in his book: Hitler's Willing Executioners."

Whatever you think about the history, it is clear that the Pope was no force for good in Hitler's Germany.  How much to blame the Catholic Church is a matter of opinion but it is very safe to say that most Jews have little but sore feelings concerning that history.  The fact that Hagee picks up on those sore feelings on OUR behalf is no mark against him.

 Further, here are two quick antedotes concerning my own  interactions with Catholics.  We bought the house in which I am living from a Catholic family and I was intrigued--not know much about Catholic theology--about a newsletter that kept coming as 3rd class mail land was not forwarded to the old owners.  It contained plenty of hair-raising anti-Jewish stuff.  Catholics are not simply competitors--they see themselves as opponents of the Jews.

I gave a speech a couple of years ago in front of a largely Christian audience.  It is noteworthy that the Catholics gave me a cold reception while the Protestants in attendance were enthusiastic and interested in my comments and wanted a copy of my speech--proving that even among right-wingers--it is the Hagee influenced Protestants who are more on the same page with Jews. 

It is fine to attempt to be neutral but when other people are anything but neutral, it is pretty dumb to fail to notice who supports us and who opposes us. 

with Hagee's remarks about catholics. If Jews are going to vent on behalf of christians then vent on behalf of the christians being persecuted in places like China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Cuba.

But you are painting with too broad a brush. You want to label him as an anti-Semite. What evidence do you have for this vile slander? If it is because of his theology then are you not the one exhibiting bigotry? As for the Catholics, I have not heard any Catholic complaints against Hagee, except from you and a few media types. I have not heard Bill Donahue express anything (and trust me, when he is upset he is everywhere). No, it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that you are just trying really hard to shill for Obama (yet again!) and you are looking to inoculate him from his own advisers and supporters by slandering Hagee, but choosing anti-Semitism for one of the country's foremost Israel supporters is foolhardy at best and let us not say what it is at worst.

As for gays, it seems his feelings are centered in theology.As a Jew, I disagree with his theology as I do with everyone's theology that is not mine. I do not get overly sensitive to theological differences among the non-Jews. The Mormons and their doctrine is just as strange to me as the Baptist, Scientologist or the new church of Environmentalism. All are a bit daffy, but they are free to believe what they will. As Jews we need to keep our eye on the Jewish ball and let the others worry about their own feelings.

Are you sure Bill Donahue hasn't complained about Hagee?  Look again:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27058

Plus, I think most people here know that Donahue is more GOP and less Catholic rights defender.  It would take a lot of hate to get Donahue to get on the perch to criticize the GOP nominee.  That he has done so says a great deal about the level of malevolence from Hagee against the Catholic people.

One more thing about Hagee, I've read many times that Hagee blames the Jews for the Holocaust.  In his book "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To war" he allegedly states that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by rebelling against God and that the Holocaust was God's way of forcing Jews to move to Israel.  That in itself is obviously very troubling.  But in the spirit of Jeffrey's ethnocentrism, if you Jews aren't troubled with that, then who are the rest of us to worry about it.  That notwithstanding, does anybody here know what it was the Jews did that was "rebellious" against God?  Is he referring to Jews not accepting Jesus Christ as their savior?  If so, isn't Hagee saying that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves for refusing to convert to Christianity? 

Look buddy, I can name quite a few Jews that also blame the Jews for the Holocaust. Heck, many of them live in NYC. And no, it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. You are reading what you want to read. What I find rich is you that hate the evangelicals for wanting Jews to be devout Jews. Well, I am a Jew that is very tired of other Jews that swapped Judaism for liberalism. I am also tired of the slamming of Evangelicals by Jews to support Obama, someone who is not as Pro-Jewish as you people want us to believe and is definitely not Pro-Israel or even simply even-handed. His rhetoric is a decade old and reflects that he either is lying about Israel or he is so ignorant of current events that he should not be allowed to vote on legislation, let alone be considered for high office. Really, he speaks of Israel as if they still occupied Gaza, it has not even occurred to him that Gaza was handed over to the Arabs three years ago and they should bare responsibility for their own actions and conduct. Any exculpatory response for the Arabs  should be judged as a sign of paternalism and Racism on Obama's part towards "Palestinians"..

To what, then, is Hagee referring when he says that Jews brought about the Holocaust by rebelling against God?  What did the Jews do to rebel against God?  I wasn't trying to read something that isn't there, I just couldn't think of what else Hagee could be talking about other than not accepting Christ as the son of God.

One other thing; I don't hate anybody, so don't say that I hate evangelicals.  What I do hate is hyprocrisy.  And anyone that is miffed about Obama being supported by White or Farrakhan should also be miffed that McCain is supported by Hagee.

The Jews that believe the Holocaust is G-d's punishment was because they rebelled by no longer following the Torah and became involved with the outside world. Hagee believes that they gave up being devout, as I said. You are putting your own spin on this. There are countless books that cover this. So, as you told me earlier, pick up a book and learn something. Learn about the Jewish groups that do not support Israel and blame European Jewry for their own destruction and learn the truth about Evangelical Zionism, something that was supported even before the Jews started their own return...

On March 12, Salah Choudhury, the brave Bangladeshi journalist
who calls himself a Muslim Zionist, will be forced to return to
court to face the trumped up charges brought against him by the
Bangladeshi government. His crime: attempting to attend a
conference in Israel (read the charges below and weep.) For this,
he faces a potential death penalty for treason and sedition!

I have met Mr. Choudhury and he is an amazing human being who has
bravely resisted attempts to silence him from speaking out about
Muslim anti-Semitism in his native land. He is now in real
physical danger should this turn into a show trial. Please alert
your Congressmen and Senators (nothing better than an election
year) and ask that they closely monitor this trial and that they
do whatever they can to see the charges against Salah are
dismissed. If you don't know how to contact your Senator or
Congressman, it is easy to simply google their name and get that
information. Please send Salah a message of support.

Naomi

From: Salah Choudhury
[mailto:salahuddinshoaibchoudhury@yahoo.com]
Sent: 10 March, 2008 7:49 PM
March 12th may be an ordinary day for most of my friends and
supporters around the world, whose support, patronization and
prayers kept me alive till today despite the fact of continuous
state repression and harassment. But, for my family and me, it is
another day of unknown horror. It is the day when Bangladeshi
court is willing to begin trial of the false sedition, treason
and blasphemy charges previous Islamist alliance government in
Bangladesh brought against me. Why? According to the charges [the
court said]:

Metro Session Court Case Number 377/05
Date of Charge Framed: 13.11.2006

I, Md. Momin Ullah, Metropolitan Session Judge do here by accuse
you Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury for the following reasons:

The State Prosecution has brought allegation against you, Salah
Uddin Shoaib Choudhury stating that, being the editor and owner
of Blitz newspaper, you sent an article titled 'Hello Tel Aviv'
to USA Today newspaper published from Washington. Furthermore, in
2003, while attempting to travel to Israel to attend a conference
titled 'Education Towards Culture of Peace, organized between 1st
December to 3rd December 2003, you appeared at the Zia
International Airport on the 29th November 2003 and the
Immigration police arrested you and found the copy of the speech
you prepared to deliver in the conference. In that speech, you
have made offensive comments on Muslim world, Islam and Muslims
in Bangladesh and commented about existence of Al Qaeda and other
Islamist militant groups, by which you have tarnished the image
of Bangladesh in the outside world. Furthermore, you have made
conspiracy of spreading anti-state news through that speech and
you by sending that speech to outside world, you have played
offensive role to Bangladesh's security, public discipline and
adverse role towards Bangladesh's relations with the outside
world. In you report, you have mentioned about guerilla training
in the Bangladeshi madrassas, by which you have influenced the
religious sentiments and made imaginary stories abroad about
jihadist training in favor of Laden, Arafat and Saddam, by which
you have put Bangladesh's foreign relations to threat and through
this you have caused offense under Penal Code Section 505 (A),
295 (A) and 120 (B).

The allegations were read before the accused and he claimed to be
innocent (not guilty) and prayed for justice.

Md. Momin Ullah
Metropolitan Session Judge

My response:

It is well known to the international community and even the
Bangladeshi government that there are guerilla trainings in
various Madrassas in the country. Previous government captured a
few hundred such elements from various Madrassas belonging to
Islamist terror group named JMB. Kingpins of this group were
accorded death penalty by Bangladeshi courts and subsequently
they were hanged. But, I am facing the charges of forecasting the
existence of such elements in Bangladeshi Madrassas. Why?

I have never sent any article titled 'Hello Tel Aviv' nor it was
ever printed in any US or international newspaper. This is a
bogus and imaginary allegation brought against me by the
government. The prosecution does not have any evidence of such
allegation.

I made comments about existence of Al Qaeda and other Islamist
militancy group in Bangladesh. Bangladesh government already
banned the activities of Al Haramine Institute [which was having
active bases in this country] for their alliance with Al Qaeda.
Moreover, the government has acknowledged the existence of JMB
and other Islamist militancy groups like Harkatul Jihad [recently
lack-listed by the US State Department], Hizb Ut Tahrir. But, the
court is continuing charges against me. Ridiculous indeed!

How many more years I will have to suffer from this false and
ridiculous charge? I am continuing to spend money and energy in
this case since 2003. Is it justice to let an innocent journalist
suffer for years, just because he forecasted the rise of radical
Islam and confronted it?

Hundreds of hours are already spent in the court premises while I
can not figure out the degree of pain and sufferings I have been
facing.

What the Bangladeshi government wants?

They want to appease the Islamists by continuing the case and
even by convicting me. Many of the top policymakers of the
governments are angry on me because I am a Zionist and I
continuously defend Jews and Christians as well as combat radical
Islam. They are also angry on me because I demand relations
between Israel and Muslim nations.

Please pray for me on 12th of March 2008, when I must be in the
court premises to face trial.

SALAH UDDIN SHOAIB CHOUDHURY
Journalist, Columnist, Author & Peace Activist
Editor & Publisher, Weekly Blitz <http://www.weeklyblitz.net/>
www.weeklyblitz.net
PEN USA Freedom to Write Award 2005; AJC Moral Courage Award 2006
Key to the Englewood City, USA [Highest Honor] 2007; Monaco Media
Award, 2007

Ok, I've read enough about Hagee at this point to know a few things about him:  (1) he thinks Jews are expendable once they have served their purpose of getting Christ back to Earth to fight Satan; (2) he is crazy and will do whatever he can to get Israel into war; (3) he thinks Satan will be a man who promotes peace between Israelis and Arabs; and (4) he's a hater, and he hates basically everyone, except for fundamentalist Christians.

I can't believe Orthodox/conservative Jews are falling for this lunacy.  Look, I may not be Jewish, nor a crazy "christian zionist", but I truly believe that a peaceful and prosperous Jewish State of Israel is an asset to this world and particularly to America.  That's why when I see this Hagee and his cohorts, I want to run for the hills.  I don't care what his headlines might say, when you read the details and the religious beliefs at the heart of those details, it's clear that these people want to hasten the destruction of Israel.  It sucks for Israel that their greatest supposed allies (Hagees and Turks) are the worlds biggest anti-semites.

It is distressing that some of you people throw around this term for Evangelicals that support the Jews. You are the bigots and should be ashamed of yourselves.

They're not supporting you because they recognize you as human beings with whom they want to share the Earth.  They support you because they want to hasten the end of the world, and they think Israel has to be at war and destroyed before that can happen.  Do you think they would support you if they didn't have this whacky belief?

Thank you for the clarification. I do not think you know much about the Evangelicals other than what you have been told. living in the South we see them everyday, and unfortunately they are more Pro-Israel and Pro-Jews than most of the reform movement. What does it matter if their theology is different, they are there when it counts, where are you? Busy trashing these good people with your idiotic prejudice.

I can't continue arguing with you.  You are set in your unshakable opinion, which I think is short-sighted.  But I could be wrong, and I hope for Israel's and America's sake that you are right and I am wrong.

Like the Torah says: you can't judge a person's heart, so you should only judge his actions.