Is JDate Bad for Women?

Women are just becoming lazy, the reproduction rate of jewish women is already below the replacement rate, if it gets any lower,there won't be any financial sense to run a dating site specifically for Jews. And what does egalitarianism has to do with his? are you expecting men to grow wombs?

 

"Women are just becoming lazy, the reproduction rate of jewish women is
already below the replacement rate, if it gets any lower,there won't be
any financial sense to run a dating site specifically for Jews."

Because childbearing is the only goal of people on dating sites.

Saying that J-Date is bad for women because men seem to get all the "internet action" doesn't seems fair to come from a women's perspective, maybe men are thinking the same thing about their own gender.  Maybe some men that aren't getting any response are thinking the site makes men feel the women are "self-centered, married, or both."  Maybe women are too picky about who they choose to date and find more faults than men do, therefore have less people interested in them. 

On the issue of repopulating the Jewish faith through mass amounts of fully Jewish babies, what about those who do not wish to have babies, should they be at fault for their religion having a low reproduction rate?  It seems to me women are starting to have babies later in life and putting their careers before starting a family, many women's values have changed over time and therefore women feel less of an obligation to make having dozens of babies their life goal.  But there still may be some of us wanting to have this life filled with babies and want to blame those who can't see why this is important to our faith. 

"Because childbearing is the only goal of people on dating sites."

That's what Izzy is suggesting. 

Wrong. So wrong.

If men are getting all the action online well then who exactly are they doing it with?  

Guys are probably just casting their 'net' out more - as the horny buggers do in real life. But when it comes down to it - it's one guy, to one girl, per date and generally anything else (unless the guy is paying or they are exceptionally good looking).

I'm not sure if I buy that. Granted, Americans tend to like babies, as do all human beings mammals--the "I hate babies" gene wouldn't stand much of a chance in natural selection. And it is true that America still tends to make more babies than Europe or Japan,which are not-breeding themselves out of existence.

But with those two caveats, I'd say American women have less pressure to make babies than women in any society, past or present. I guess that level of pressure could be marginally reduced, but any attempt to eliminate it would go again human nature. Humans evolved to reproduce, and that includes parents wanting their children to have children.

As for Judaism being worse than American society at large...I understand the "undo the holocaust through more Jewish babies" ethos and I've certainly experienced it (yup, even men get pressured occasionally). But overall I haven't seen Jewish Americans acting much differently than any other ethnic group with strong ties to a more traditional culture. Jewish American women certainly have it better than most South-Asian women I know--the South-Asian families consider their daughters old hags if they're not married by 24 or so.

 

--Z

Nope, not what I'm suggesting.  For one thing, this isn't a discussion of dating sites in general, but JDate in particular -- of course that statement would be totally ridiculous if applied to, say, Nerve.

But when you're talking about Jews trying to find Jewish mates, the issue of children is always relevant. I'm sure there are JDaters who don't plan to have children and just want to make sure their significant others celebrate the same holidays, but when you ask any advocate for in-marriage why it's so crucially important that Jews marry Jews, the first response you get is always "Because of the children."  (This response might not be the most honest -- it's entirely possible that some people object to intermarriage because they secretly believe that non-Jews are dumb, or weird, or have drinking problems -- but it's definitely the most common.) 

So if you believe that Jewish continuity is inextricably tied to Jewish in-marriage, and if you believe that marriage is the inevitable result of dating, then yes, any Jewish date you go in is ultimately about childbearing.  Actually, any date you go on AT ALL is about childbearing, which is part of the reason the Jewish establishment's obsession with intermarriage is such a turn-off to so many young Jews -- because nobody wants to treat a first date as an all-or-nothing commitment.

Ugh, 24? Get to the nursing home already, GRANDMA. I only date fifteen year olds.

Izzy, you wrote, "No one ever says it outright, but if intermarriage is 'finishing what Hitler started'...because it produces insufficiently Jewish children, then what about those Jewish women who don’t produce any children at all?"

 

Actually, Jack Wertheimer recently included in one of his think-pieces the suggestion that we advocate for Jewish women to have more babies, and to start having them earlier; and I've heard the beginnings of murmurings within the organized community around creating incentives for just such a cause. And of course their motivation is "continuity," in part as a counterbalance to what they perceive as "shrinkage" due to intermarried families not raising Jewish children (take "shrinkage" in relation to Wertheimer however you'd like).

 

If the organized Jewish community is not motivated by fear, what else is there to motivate us?  Joy? Ethics? Values? Meaning? Community?!  NAAAAH.

I think I grok what you're trying to say in your last reply, Izzy, but it needs further explanation. I made a long comment way back about how I believe 'Menachem's Seed' travels well and seems to prevail biologically in mixed offspring. (also title of great book on reproduction from another jenius, Carl Djerassi) This does not mean that over time inter-marriage won't weaken the only DNA largely shaped by it's own myths, however. And unfortunately the fact that the gene pool will be diluted in future seems inevitable.

Personally I would like to see more discussion on core issues concerning Jewish evolution and it's future rather than focus on one small aspect of the larger issue; the impact of gene diffusion on an ethnicity that remained united throughout centuries of diaspora, bonded primarily by blood and ancient tales. That paradigm clearly won't fly in today's world, and Jewcy has the potential to provide an updated, scientific interpretation of The Torah instead of the ramifications of one small aspect of the Jewish gestalt.

For what it's worth, I think J-date is a good thing, and would like to see more sites like it. Just because a DNA 'diaspora' is certain, that doesn't mean trying to maintain these unbelievably successful chains of unique genetic construction where ever possible and for as long as possible isn't a worthwhile endeavor.

 

Z-bird: 

Mainstream American culture is definitely baby-crazy.  Every week, all three of the major gossip magazines are stocked to the gills with stories about female celebrities and their relationship to child-bearing.  Reese's kids get along well with her new boyfriend, Angelina's thinking of adopting another one, Jennifer Aniston is desperately sad about her barren womb, Britney's a bad mom, J-Lo is thrilled to be pregnant, Jessica Alba is thrilled to be pregnant, Halle Berry is thrilled to be pregnant -- it never ends.  Meanwhile, two of the top-grossing movies this year, Juno and Knocked Up, were about the joys of not getting an abortion.  And every third writer is publishing a "how I got pregnant" memoir.

True, most societies in human history have put considerably more pressure on women to have kids.  Most societies in human history also haven't had reliable birth control.  But if you look at American culture over the past, say, three decades, we've without a dount hit a baby-crazed high recently. 

Also, you're totally right about ethnic enclaves with strong ties to more traditional culture, but that doesn't really illustrate much about general mainstream American society, right?  I didn't say Jews have it the worst -- just worse.

Proud Self-Loather: 

"If the organized Jewish community is not motivated by fear, what else is there to motivate us?  Joy? Ethics? Values? Meaning? Community?!  NAAAAH." is most definitely the new Jewcy motto.

DK:

Don't think I'm avoiding you just because I haven't responded yet.  It is ON. 

That's cause gossip magazines are marketed towards stay-at-home moms (whom is probably pregnant) with nothing better to do.

There's no movie about the joys of abortion becausemost people don't think abortion is to be celebrated.

 

excepting shul, where else but jdate does one go to meet potential Jewish mates? And if you live in a good-size city with several shuls, look at all the potential mates you might never meet.

But none of that applies to me. I live in a large metropolitan area, with an (alleged) disproportionately large population of Jews - and after a year, the same 2 matches pop up on jdate. And no, my search is not narrow, just gender and a 10-year age range.

Where does one go to meet a potential Jewish mate? Good question, but why is this something so prevalent today, that there are so many Jewish singles who are not finding ways to meet. It shouldn't have to be that going on the internet and looking at a picture and reading a superficial profile about hopes and desires, feels like the only way to find a Jewish partner. Whatever happened to going out in a group and meeting people the "old fashion" way? Maybe the issue is that Jewish singles today are way too concerned with the fact that they are single and instead of having a friend fix them up, or going out in the social scene to meet people, they instead spend way too much time on sites like J-date and after awhile of not getting any hits start to obsess and feel bad about themselves. Maybe people should spend this time in a more constructive way and not dote on the single factor.

And Craig, your sick.

"Women are just becoming lazy, the reproduction rate of jewish women is
already below the replacement rate, if it gets any lower,there won't be
any financial sense to run a dating site specifically for Jews"

Oh please! It's a good thing your comment is Anonymous, Anonymous, because if women knew who you were you would never get laid again.

I love my kids very very much, but to those single women feeling pressure, let me say this: honey, take all the time you need to find a person with whom you can enjoy life - someone who makes you laugh. After that, worry about babies. This is not a gig to undertake with someone you don't really love.

If Jewish families are reasonably happy we will be better off as a people, demographics be damned. 

I know of a good marriage, with a child, where he is nine years younger than she is. Widen your ten-year range. Not more than that, however. But nine years in either direction may be ok. It is not a generational difference. Nine years is not a generation.

Responses to: "Because childbearing is the only goal of people on dating sites."

I can't tell if people are taking this literally or they're just giving witty replies along the lines of "Ha! Your attempt at sarcasm was actually an ironic statement of truth."

"If men are getting all the action online well then who exactly are they doing it with?"

You may want to rethink your assumptions for a certain percentage of folks.

"If men are getting all the action online well then who exactly are they doing it with?" David this discussion was about the male female thing, obviously or the statement would be pretty redundant.

You remind me of Davidth from Little Britian's 'only gay in the village' skit.

 

 

I think you’re right that American society is currentlybaby-crazy – based more on the popularity of Juno and Knocked Up than anythingelse*.

The question is why? What does this say? Does it have somethingto do with our birth-rate: somewhere between European lows and Third Worldhighs? Or the crashing divorce and teen-pregnancy rates? Or the aftershocks of ageneration of feminism?

What does this obsession say about Jews specifically (apeople more baby-obsessed than the general population)?

I think its time to move beyond frivolous blogging and putsome real thought into this very significant question…

 

* We should remember that most of Jewcy’s writers andreaders are of baby-making age, so the world certainly seems more baby-centricto us than to 70 year olds or toddlers. Think how obsessed with college theworld seems when one is a senior in high school. We need to be careful todivorce the real historic trend from the social pressures put on specific age-groups.That said: why so baby crazy?

Izzy made an excellent point earlier regarding first date pressure.  I actually had a fairly long discussion last summer with a Jewish co-worker.  She mentioned that she finds dating Jewish guys stressful in a way she doesn't with non-Jews because she's constantly wondering, "if he's the man I'm going to marry."  I was struck by how true her statement was and I think Izzy's idea that the childbearing focus forces us to have our antennae up a bit more when dating Jewish guys is a really interesting one.  I've definitely felt that urge in the past and I think I was willing to overlook a lot of faults with men because I was just excited they were Jewish.  I'm still in graduate school and not in a rush to have children (if ever), but I'm to the point where I'll only date Jews.  Perhaps the childbearing question is more on my mind than I originally thought...

This addiction idea is interesting! Yes, people do get addicted to the stimulation of endless newness! And not just on the internet. A match-maker said, "I will find you the right person. DO NOT GO OUT WITH ANYBODY AT ALL until I do". Some months later, the connection was made, and yes, it was the right person. Would that connection would have "taken," if they had been constantly going out, going out, which becomes a way of life, not a problem? A way of life that it becomes impossible to give up, for just one person. The addiction of the next date... the risk, the wondering if you will be smitten out of your senses, the hope, the uncertainty. Yes, it's like buying Lotto tickets. A million dollar pot! Yeah, sure. Come on, now. Chill the gambler mentality.

 Think how fabulous and dazzling a person has to be, to give up your "freedom" for. The bar goes up higher all the time.Nobody's that fabulous! The better you are making it alone, the better that person has to be, to be good enough to "give it up for"! But that is a false definition. You are not giving up anything. You are GETTING a committed companion and children.