Atheists Aren’t As Convincing As Casseroles

"the people who I go to when I’ve been having a rough time. They’re the people visiting my mother when she’s not feeling well, and raising money for charity and watching each other’s children and just generally acting as a wonderful and impressive community. I’ve yet to see any atheist—angry or otherwise—address this issue seriously. "

This is certainly a great and relevant point.  It is, though, the same reason why some people back religious extremists--oftentimes, the non-military wing does this.  This is what the Christian right does.  This is what Muslim extremists do--there are some fantastic passages in Nobel prize-winning Orhan Pamuk's SNOW which make that very point.  Who's gonna bring you that casserole, whether it's mac and cheese or couscous.  But that's not all they bring.

http://myshkin2.typepad.com/mysh/

I would guess that if you are part of a religious community then you are likely to get casseroles from the religious.  If you are part of an atheist community you are likely to get casseroles from atheists.  If I were to hazard a guess you would find that per capita giving is higher for atheists world wide then it is for the religious but I suspect that if you hold constant for education/social status the difference disappears.  On the whole my limited experience has been that the people tend to be people and the majority of them are pretty cool.  

It is worth noting that by far the biggest giver of healthcare and financial support for the poor in the US is the US government which is not a religious organization.  I would shudder to think what would happen if we were to depend on the religious to dole out services to a heterogenious population.

-Matt   

Do you really believe the US Government is not a religious organization?  Despite all the talk about "seperation between Church and State" every platform is filled with religion.  In fact, I daresay there is even a new religion, where Big Business is worshipped.

But I've only met one Atheist in my life that I know of, and his life seems almost empty and devoid of joy.  He seemed to fill that space with a woman, and when she left, it wasn't really the same.  Agnostics I've met many of, and all of them are really cool.  

But when people talk about Atheists I often wonder if they're talking about the "anti-God" people instead.  There's a difference between not believing in any God and believing that the God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims is evil.  I dated a girl who called herself pagan who refused to ever read the bible.  "God is evil" was her motto.  She believed in something that created us, but it wasn't this evil being all these other people believe in and talk about.  She almost burned my bible.  That's always been what I think about when I think "Atheist", unlike the one I've met who would rather have a religious conversation and understand what I believe and appear open minded about things. 

There have been countless studies proving that religious people gives much much more charity than non-religious, her eis just one:

A 2002 study by the Independent Sector, "Faith and Philanthropy: The Connection Between Charitable Behavior and Giving to Religion,"  found that the average total amount donated by givers to religious congregations was more than the average amount given by secular givers. Regardless of income level, donors to religious congregations gave substantially more money to charities, both faith-based and secular, than donors giving to non-religiously-affiliated causes only. In households with incomes between $25,000 and $50,000, which comprise the largest percentage of givers with 31.8% of donors, givers to religious congregations gave on average 24.7% percent more annually than secular donors. Donors to religious organizations were not more generous only to faith-based charities, but were more generous overall, tending to give as much or more to non-religious causes they support than other givers who supported only secular causes.

In volunteerism, donors motivated by faith or religious involvement also came out ahead, logging on average more hours per month at both secular and religiously-affiliated charities. So not only are religiously affiliated folks more inclined to reach deeply into their pockets to support charitable organizations, but they are also statistically more likely to get their hands dirty on behalf of causes of all types.

WHat is a athiest community?  I jew can go anwhere in the world and find the Jeiwsh community and feel at home and be taken care of etc.  The same is not true for someone who is just an athiest.

I also think your point that "the majority of people are pretty cool" is way of base.  As L7 sang, "The Masses are asses!" And thats why we need religion, (the Torah says this also, "yazter leiv ha-adam ra me'naurav") people are not naturally good, but need structure, teaching, and a religious community to help make them better.

booya kasha!

You mentioned the word "children". The median age of American Jews is 37. One American Jewish (non-Orthodox) household out of four has somebody in it who is under 18. Three out of four do not.

Our population is halving itself. The Nazis took one third of our numbers, and we are doing much more than they did. Their method was noisy and fast. Our method is noiseless and slow. But we are extincting ourselves better than they did.

I decree that there will be a two week moratorium on saying "the Jewish future" by anybody with a post-college family member who would not be pleased to hear that person was about to marry. If you think 25 is too young to marry, you cannot say "the Jewish future" for the next two weeks, not spoken nor written. After that, ok.

I also decree that there will be a two-week moratorium on saying "the Jewish future" by anybody who is old enough to have a Jewish child, and doesn't, when they could have, if they wanted. After that, ok.

I betcha a lot of leftist feeling is really un-expressed parental feeling. The poor things. They have been socially, not surgically, sterilized. Now THAT should be rebelled against. Somehow. By getting together and standing firm that this is what's important, not big weddings or stupid degrees in basketweaving or film studies etc.

I love it when people randomly hone in on the least important part of a post to rant about.

First of all, I'm 23, and though I'd happily date the right guy if he came along, he hasn't.  I'm happy to make babies, but if I could just wait until I've got a ring I think my community would be much more comfortable, thanks.

Second, are you blaming Jewcy readers for not having enough children?  Do you know other Jewcy readers?  Would you say any of this to the face of the young childless couple you meet at shul?  Do you think it's possible that the reason people are leaving the Jewish community is because the people they see in the community are obsessed with the Holocaust and only ever talk about intermarriage and how we need more Jewish babies?  Because I have to say, doesn't exactly make me want to run into the warm embrace of the shul Sisterhood.

I agree with you about basketweaving, though.  Basketweavers are total sissies. 

1.  For whatever it's worth to BT, I have babies (okay, stinky preschoolers) and am what you would probably call a leftist.  Still not sure why this is relevant, but I hope that helps.

 2.  Who cares whether religious people or atheists give more charity?  My perspective on this is that, since I'm Jewish, I'm going to turn to Jewish sources and the Jewish community to motivate me to do good deeds and give away money.  If someone else feels more comfortable finding that motivation in a Christian church, ethical humanist essays, or Al Gore's movies, that's great and I applaud them. 

 3.  One of my favorite things about being Jewish is that there is a long tradition of active Jews who either believe there is no god or aren't sure whether there is a god, or waver between those two positions and a firm belief in the Jewish God.  The best part is that Judaism doesn't let us off the hook either way.  You don't cease to be Jewish even on weeks when you're feeling very atheistic.  Even on days when I'm pretty sure there is no god and that, even if there is a higher power, it's unlikely to resemble the version portrayed in the Jewish Bible, I still have to do my best to do mitzvot and engage in Jewish humor if I want to stay true to 5000 years' worth of my ancestors.  So, I (usually) try to pray, give tzedakah, get my kids to say brachot before chowing down, bake challah on Fridays, and so on, even if I'm feeling dubious about God's actual existence.  In doing so, I don't feel that far removed from either my atheist great-aunt who used her Jewish energy to found a kibbutz or from her father, a Belarussian rabbi who must have had his low-belief days.

Tamar, you are only 23. 23 is not 25. I said people should get their grown-up lives in gear around 25. And definitely with a ring!!! No bastards, pleeeeease! As for the hypothetical young childless couple at shul, if I got wind of their having trouble conceiving, and the moment seemed right, I might mumble something to the wife, about Day Twelve. (Day Twelve of the month is The Good Day for getting pregnant.) However, if they just didn't have money for children, I would mutter terrible, fearsome incantations, silently, against their comfortable parents, who should strip themselves of their own comforts, to help with that.

You are right. Without a Jewish Present there is no reason to desire a Jewish Future. And, a Jewish Present has to have a core belief, even if just a strong feeling of affiliation, even if one is not religious. To me, that affiliation feeling is a form of religiousity in disguise! I am BT, late-life orthodox. I ate a lot of pork chops and cheeseburgers in my day. I am not putting anybody down! I think religion is behind it all, however. You can't have our story without the Main Character, His Upstairs-ness, the Big Guy Himself. Not ultimately. It's like Hamlet without Hamlet. The play wanders all over the place, but the main character has to show up sometime.

This is not a paid commercial. But CHABAD is where young, energetic wedding-producing Judaism is found, not the old-line synagogues. Not just a fun time. A FAMILY. So anybody who is not kidding about wanting a spouse should mosey over to Chabad. You do it their way, put in the time, and you, yes you, will have a real home. It isn't free. You have to work hard, but their methods WORK. The great Esther Jungreis at HINENI gets results, too. She has a heck of a husband / wife store on West End Avenue. If you just like having your own scene and tousling various curly heads, have a nice time but don't whine.

I didn't mean you have to live among the Chabad people, and become a card-carrying member of Chabad. You can just get your family life going with them, and then wander off. They don't mind. It's the Torah that is the point, not joining Chabad forever. Your parents won't mind too much if you are very, very tactful and gradual with them. Be accepting. In fact that is the message of Chabad!! 

My feels about Chabad don't fit into this little comment box, but suffice it to say I am absolutely not entrusting them with the job of finding me a husband.  The meshichut stuff going on in Chabad right now is complete insanity, and to look to them for love is just not something I recommend (though of course, if it has worked for someone in the past, I'm not invalidating that, I'm just saying I would never go there).

BT, you're certainly welcome to have your own views, but FH is not a forum for you to push marriage on every Tom Dick and Moshe who happens to be reading.  We respect people's choices here, and saying that childless singles are just continuing the work of the Holocaust is never going to win you points with me.

I certainly do NOT mean to call anybody evil. But if I hated Jews, I would just take a nap and not trouble myself. Think of the savings of blood and treasure. They are getting rid of themselves better than anybody else ever could - free.

There are so many invisible factors, ideological and above all financial, keeping people from having spouses and children now. I was demanding that these things be looked at in the light of day. I was asking that our famous rebellious energies be directed against these things. I was demanding people think clearly about their choices - realistically, and not in an ideology-driven way. After doing all that, sure, the decisions are up to the individual. I was just against the fog and the lies. I was asking for clarity, and for assertion. Nice assertion, but assertion.

Chabad may not be everybody's cup of tea. I also mentioned Hineni. They are not chasidic.

As for religion, it does seem to give a couple a central tent-pole and structure that holds them up, and holds them together. Something outside their own psyches and feelings. No, it is not an iron-clad guarantee. No, it wasn't necessary in the past, for fifty years. So why is it suddenly necessary? Well, because it is a much more chaotic world now, than the 1950's. It's not your father's oldsmobile anymore, and "Temple" may not be enough. I have personally seen people, strict Sabbath observers, forced to be civil to each other, though quite angry, because kiddush just had to be said, and the rules are the rules. It wasn't a total cure-all but it was something.

I think the point of this post is about atheists and community.  As an atheist, I will fully admit that it is difficult if not impossible to create a community around a negative which is why you will find few if any atheist communities. As a Jewish atheist, I want to clarify.

I make it a point to do bikkur cholim.  I have worked in HIV social services and research for almost 20 years.  I am the first person to organize a food tree when a friend has a miscarriage or needs some assistance.  I am a regular contributor to a few select charitable causes.  None of my activities in the care of other humans in this world has one bit to do with my belief or non-belief in G-d (and I write it this way out of respect). 

There is a place for atheists in the Jewish world.  I don't know exactly what it is but I know that there are so many of us.  I am looking forward to a way of experiencing my love of my community in a way that is fulfilling to me socially, emotionally and intellectually.

Thanks Tamar.

Faith,

Are you really an atheist or do you just have serious doubts? There is a big difference. I'm not sure you are right that there are a lot of Jewish atheists; instead I think there are a lot of serious doubters. Certainly there's room for doubters in Judaism; almost all the prophets wresteled with G-d. Sometimes I think a lot of us are like  Jonah--God's trying to talk to us through the Torah and we just want to run away. Do you ever have that feeling?

Jonathan

You are a wonderful, caring, classic Jewish woman. I wasn't OT! I AM talking about community. Community isn't just sideways, it is vertical. And I opined that atheism was not as helpful as religion in community structuring. In some cases. Are you aware that man is a runaway shop? That's a term from labor history. Women insisted on a better deal, and men simply closed shop, took their marbles and went home. They don't need us anymore.

Some of us are relieved, but some of us want legitimate children and can't get them. The latter are far too nice to make a fuss. Not after all that has been done for them, degrees, etc. It would seem ungrateful, and a trifle animalistic, to say "HEY! THANKS FOR THE DEGREE, BUT CAN I PLEASE HAVE A HUSBAND FOR MY BED, AND A CHILD FOR MY ARMS?" It would fly in the face of, "after all we have done for you to release you from gender prison, you primitive, ungrateful, hormone-crazed breeder cow".

This can be sold to the parents, however, if it is put very nicely.

So BE a little animalistic. We are mammals, after all. We want to bear our young. So? What's so terrible? "Don't worry. We won't make you miss your golf game to baby-sit. We won't strip you of your assets to pay for private school".

BT

I'm a guy who's been lucky enough to have his family and others stay out of his love life so your statements aren't as bothersome to me - they are perplexing. First if we are to talk about the top "noiseless and slow" killers of the Jewish people, I'm sure we'd have to look at a myrid of self-destructive activites (drug use, excessive drinking, smoking, weight, etc) before the lack of jewish children comes up. Though not quite noiseless or slow I've seen many jews who have died either from drinking and driving or ODing, long before their 25 birthdays. These people were a part of the Jewish present and were to become a part of the Jewish future.

To describe anyone as a Nazi merely on whether s/he is married or not and to think that being a leftist or rightist or neutral has something to do with whether you have children or not I won't even debate. Having children is a personal not political decision.

There are many reasons a couple might be childless. The couple might want to build up their finances before having a child, they may simple wish to enjoy their first year of marriage and merely get to know one another before having a child, or they may not be medically able to have a child. There are some diseases and injuries that can keep a women from getting pregant - how would a statement about the 12th of the month make these couples feel? As for cursing parents that can't help with their children finances - if I had a child right now I would be paying both for him/er and for my own parents, who because of sickness can no longer pay the bills themselves. Who would you then curse? The community, built of families each with their own problems that, though willing to help anyway it can, has not the money to sustain an entire family(ies)?

But back to the original topic, excellent post Tamar. A common ethical and moral group based on a shared idea nearly always become bedrocks for the people involved in times of trouble. For instance, clubs and sports teams tend to rally around any person or player who's been injuried. How that person is treated though depends on the core values of the group he belongs to. Most religons' strong moral code and belief in community make a strong fondation for this type of thing. While atheist tend not to gather, at least not as atheists. Where you'll find atheist gathering is in these racial, sport, school, work, etc related fields. Ie. an atheist programmer might find solice with other programmers or an atheist student at UoI college might look to other students.

I would never call anybody a Nazi. I just wanted to point out what we are doing to ourselves. The horrors you mention - drugs, drink, stupid drink-induced auto accidents etc - are very bad, but I was talking about something else. Those things are OBVIOUS killers. I was talking about an invisible killer. 

Yes, pelvic inflammatory disease will sterilize a woman. But the big sterilizer  is simply waiting too long. This is the saddest thing in the world, and nobody is saying anything.

Your case does not sound like who I was yelling at. I wish you luck.

I was yelling at misapplied feminism, and the secret selfishness of the grandparent generation that does have money. Certainly not your parents.

I didn't mean people who wait a year or two, to enjoy and solidify a marriage. I meant people who wait ten years, to even marry at all.

There IS TOO a correlation between religious / political stance and family formation. There shouldn't be. But there is. YOU are a wonderful exception. YOU are married. YOU should give advice !!! YOU have good values! Share them!

Though not you, many people are laboring under the terrible The Five Year Rule: a first year to date the person, a second year to get the parents used to the idea of them marrying, a third year to reserve the right place for a nice wedding, a fourth year to see if the marriage is solid, and then a fifth year, for a pregnancy. Fertility drops off hard at 35 for women. She had better be engaged at 30, to have a baby at 35. Yes, plenty of people have babies after 35, including first babies! But, that is the age when there are a lot of changes, in the large statistical picture.

So, when a guy meets a nice woman of 30, he should remember that her real reproductive age, if the Five Year Rule is not violated, and it should be, is actually 35. We must get rid of the Five Year Rule. It is killing us. 

We women need to demand our rights ... like last time, but THESE rights. They are rights too. So many nice women are being sweetly, silently, ripped off... And they rationalize to themselves that it just kind of happened that way, and nobody is to blame. But somebody IS to blame.

As for rallying round the sick, injured or troubled, I once knew a highly cultured, old couple who had lots of affectionate social contacts when they were still well. But  - when they eventually got sick, only family, BLOOD family, took care of them. The others left the scene. Ruefully, this couple found out who was really on their side. When they were no longer charming and fun, and there was no future ahead of them. Just death. Other kinds of associates are there for you - when there is still a future, when you will get better, get past your temporary difficulty.

Blood and legal marriage. That's the ticket. The rest is ok, up to a point, but it's not, er, the real thing. In many, many cases. Sorry. Have no illusions.

I've got family who live in Israel and have already made three Jewish babies--each one precious and unique and made btzelem Elohim--that they cannot afford to raise.  What is the sense in that!?

I was talking about the US middle class scene. People who have cable TV, and a cell-phone, can afford children. That is $200 a month, right there. On top of that are cabs, manicures and the dry-cleaner. You can do your own nails, and wear washable microfiber clothes. You can throw some food into a slow cooker in the morning, and not order Chinese, or go out. You can wear tights instead of pantyhose, because they don't rip. You can get anything you need, cheap, on Overstock dot com. I love EFRAT. People thought my parents were crazy to have me....

Is it just me or does it seem from this discussion that only women can be infertile?

Men get lifetime fertility, more or less, PHYSICALLY. But SOCIALLY - that is another matter! Most couples are not terribly, terribly different in age from each other. A guy in his forties is not going to have an easy time enchanting a woman of 32 or so. Different music, different politics, different times. He is a geezer to her. Therefore, he may find that his social group doesn't have any fertile women in it, any more. This effectively scotches his chances at children, even though his BODY could make them. The men are aging right along with the women, alas.

,