I would not have sex with an ominvore; thats gross!

I had never heard of a "Horse Shoe" sandwich before.  That's some intense looking grub. 

Why would anybody feel guilty about drinking milk and eating eggs?

So what if they are animal products, no animal was injured in the process of making them.

If that's sarcasm--it's hilarious. 

If it's a legitimate question, I'd be happy to answer it for you.  Just let me know.  

Nicely put hun!

It's extremely discouraging to see Vegans or Veganism in the headlines, because it's almost certain that the story is going to be negative. Like Katie said, people would prefer to read or hear stories which confirm that veganism instead of being a healthy, happy, sustainable lifestyle that reduces suffering but that's it is in fact a cult of hippy freaks who are anything but normal individuals. That way society can go right on ignoring any valid points or questions veganism raises about the way in which their lives are conducted.

It is possible that having a relationship with someone who doesn't share your same values or morals can be difficult, but to decide who you interact with based on diet or morals alone seems a tad off. And as Katie pointed out, they are less likely to consider their deitary habits and more like to consider you (and veganism in general, because we love to generalize) wacky.

Congrats on all the success Katie! <3 I'm looking forward to issues 2 and 3.

Love B.A.D.

P.S. Nice board mention.

Of course I'm serious.

 The concept of not drinking milk or eggs makes no sense.

for the ignorance but I would also like to know what is wrong with eating milk products and eggs.  Seriously.  I understand the not wanting to eat or wear something that was hurt or killing in the process - but a little tug on the boobie?  Where is the problem?

i'm not a vegan or even a vegetarian, but i'm not naive enough to pretend that the animals used to get milk and eggs are happily sitting in fields waiting for "a little tug on the boobie" or for someone to come take their eggs.  Egg farms are atrocious.  Dirty, smelly, terrible conditions for the chickens.  My husband's family works with several big dairies and the cows don't see the field.  Their exercise is walking from the barn to the milking parlor and back again. 
I work in agriculture, so I know that not all farms are like this.  If you have a chance to buy from a smaller operation, you should.  But to suggest that the processes for procuring milk and eggs is humane . . . . It suggests the rather large disconnect that the family farms are always bemoaning--not enough people know where there food comes from.

Amber-
So you've made a very good argument for not supporting the inhumane practices of factory dairies or egg farms. But this doesn't address the question that the previous posters raised; what is the basis of the vegan objection to consuming animal products that are, in principle at least, obtainable from the animals without causing them harm? 

There are a few reasons besides the cruelty factor, and there is no cruelty-free way to get milk because no matter what you're stealing food meant for a baby.  One is consent.  A human mother consents to breastfeeding her child.  A cow never says, "Please, keep me forcibly pregnant at all times so that I may provide you with the milk that is meant for my offspring.  Oh, and by the way, if you could take my baby away from me and stick them in a tiny cage where they can't move so that you can enjoy their tender flesh, that would be great."

Another one is the squick factor.  Milk is a bodily fluid for another animal.  Eggs come out of a chickens butt.  That's pretty gross.

And then, there are the health reasons.  If you are truly interested in learning more and not just in stirring the pot for the sake of stirring, watch the Meet Your Meat video or just go here:  http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/

Now can we talk about how awesome my 80's Wilton cake pan collection is?

If you would like to read a good debate between a meat eater and a vegan, there's one on this very site:

http://www.jewcy.com/dialogue/2007-05-14/living_is_killing 

I think that a lot of vegetarians and vegans get a bad rap because a lot of them (not all!) have a chip on their shoulder because they believe that by not eating animal products and therefore not endorsing the agricultural production in this country, they are more "ethical," even "moral," than meat-eaters (which may be true). I'm wondering how many meat-eaters, though, if they actually visited a slaughterhouse, would stop eating meat? More than half? Less than half? I think a lot of people enjoy the taste of meat so much, and it contributes so much to their happiness, that they won't care about how it's produced. Plus, animals HAVE become commodities, and I think that is ingrained in our culture, causing us to think of them as FOOD, not animals. How can you talk about cows "consenting"? Cows don't talk!

I am doing some research this semester on 19th century vegetarianism in the United States, and it is striking how similar the 19th century criticisms of veg. was to those of the modern day (even the sort of sanctimonious people that Dale is pointing towards--who surely exist, but in my experience are a loud minority). Otherwise many of the stereotypical images portrayed in popular culture and the news were the same; frail, weak, kind of zany (though the 19th century veggies had some kind of peculiar thoughts on sexuality to be sure) and ideologically bankrupt--vegetarianism was presented as just another reformist fad. And much like today, those who were against veg/veganism were really angry in their criticisms, which in some ways says a lot about the movement itself and how it threatened people on some fundamental level.

donteatofthesidewalk are you really saying that the reason dairy and eggs are taboo for Vegans is because the cow didn't consent and eggs are gross because they come out of a chickens butt. Using that logic Vegans obviously must also abstain and advocate the prohibition of sex cause our peepees are yucky! 

"Vegans obviously must also abstain and advocate the prohibition of sex cause our peepees are yucky! "

Maybe yours is, bucko, but mine is quite the humdinger, and I can furnish notarized endorsements of its sturdy perfection for the skeptical. So speak for yourself.

That said, I agree that talking about cows consenting to anything stretches the concept of consent to way beyond meaninglessness. After all, if we can agree that the notion of consent can't be applied to children or the cognitively impaired in the same way that we apply it to intact adults, then where does that leave Elsie? And the bit about eggs and chicken butts-well, let's just say that anyone to whom this sort of aesthetic argument is persuasive has a far more finely-tuned sensibility than mine. Perhaps they might find the concept of "washing" helpful in this regard?

Ismail

Hey, I understand that it seems like nonsense to you, but here's my take on it:

As has already been discussed here in comments, a lot of the industrial-sized dairy and egg operations (which is where the majority of milk, butter, eggs, etc. come from) handle their animals much in the same way as animals raised for meat.  The conditions are extremely inhumane, so for someone who chooses not to eat meat for ethical, animal-rights reasons, dairy is really no better.  If you're sincerely interested in learning more about the reality of the dairy and egg industry, you can Google "battery cages."  That will give you a good idea of the kind of conditions chickens raised for eggs are subjected to.  You can also do some research on dairy cows, what happens to their calves, and the kinds of complications that arise from the hormones and antibiotics they're pumped full of.  

You'll see it's really not a "concept," but rather a direct response to an inhumane industry.  That said, there are small, humane, organic farms that raise their animals with compassion.  Oftentimes you can find them at farmers markets--the "egg lady" at my farmers market brings a big photo album each week, with pictures of her chickens, so that customers can see the reality of their totally free range, stress free lifestyle.  She even invites people up to her farm to see for themselves.  In my humble opinion, I think that's great, and I encourage my boyfriend--an omnivore--to only buy his eggs (and cheese) from her.  See, it's not black and white--there's a lot of gray in between.  For me, I feel better physically and ethically not consuming animal products at all, but if that's not the ideal lifestyle for you, you can still make more humane choices.  

Hope that makes sense--you can always feel free to drop me a line through my profile page, if you want more info.

Forced insemination, constant pregnancies, drugs, abuse, crippling environment and slaughter aside, the veal industry (the one where they chain baby cows by the next into tiny crates and feed them solution to make them weak, anemic and soft flaky pink before their killed a few months later) is a byproduct of the dairy industry.

simply put, if there was no dairy industry there wouldn't be veal.

...is that you don't have to run to the store as often when you want to make something. How many times have you decided not to cook something because you are out of eggs or milk? Cook the vegan way, and you can be lazy and still have your cake.
This can be a debate about politics, economics, morals/ethics, whatever you want. Just don't ignore that food can be delicious and as good (or bad) for you as you like, without having to use animal products. Katie makes some damn fine food, folks. Try it!

Kudos to you for all you have accomplished in the last year.

I'm anon. 10/30, 6:50pm (and also Ismail, the black bean sauce guy)-I didn't mean to suggest that veganism is nonsense, Helen. Just that I was curious about the various reasons folks have for embracing it. I'm trying to understand if there's something beyond the horrors of factory farming that persuades people to eschew eggs and milk. So far, I get repeat denunciations of factory farming (no argument from me), concerns about coercion (not persuasive to me) and queasiness about, e.g., the channels through which eggs wend their way into the light (an aesthetic taste, no different from my preferring Oreos to Hydrox, as any sane person should).

I guess what I'm looking for is a philosophically rigorous argument, like the ones Peter Singer has made to justify his stand on killing animals, regarding veganism (it occurs to me that perhaps Singer's made one, but I don't know).

What I'm asking is, if the cow is happily ensconced on a family farm, if she produces enough milk to care for her calf with some to spare for the farmer, if his chickens are in poultry paradise, scratching free and loving it, is there an interesting objection to using these products that is not merely aesthetic?

Yeah, what makes a vegan decide to be a vegan as opposed to being a vegetarian who only buys their dairy products from small farms that treat their animals humanely?

Ismail,

Good to see you back 'round these parts. Singer actually does make the argument for veganism in Animal Liberation as the most ethical diet possible (Singer himself is  just a vegetarian and not a vegan, eating dairy when traveling and such). In many ways I think that is part of what makes Singer's ideas so accessible--and speaks to Dale's concerns about the obnoxious vegetarian. Singer certainly allows for some ideological wiggle-room between the most ethical practices possible and the moral implications of personal choices (that is to say, that while he sets an ethical standard that he makes a philo. argument for, he also believes that the moral imperative is to live ethically in one form or another).

Another argument for veganism is that it consumes less energy and land resources to produce a plant than an animal product of any kind. If you are concerned with reducing your environmental footprint, veganism-- especially when you're able to buy locally grown/produced goods-- is the best path to tread.

Thank you, Dale, for saying clearly in a few words what took me several windy paragraphs to utter; the residuum of years under the lash of the Jesuits, parsing Cicero until my eyes bled.

Hi, Adam, my noble adversary in the Great Hummus Wars. Thanks for the Singer info. I'll take another look at AL to check out the specifics of his vegetarian/vegan position. The "wiggle room" part I'm a little leery of, having a higher regard for philosophical toughness than for making people comfortable (obnoxious, I know-blame those fucking Jesuits!).   

Ismail

I see your point about philosophical stingency to be sure (and tell me about, I'm doing my PhD at a Jesuit institute!). I think in a sense vis-a-vis the vegan argument in AL that it sets up a sort of utilitarian ethical pecking order. Certainly we should strive for the most ethical existence, but perhaps if we aren't able to/choose not to, we can still choose to live a more ethical life than eating McDonald's 3 times a day. Just typing that actually made me throw up a little in my mouth.

[quote]

Yeah, what makes a vegan decide to be a vegan as opposed to being a vegetarian who only buys their dairy products from small farms that treat their animals humanely?
[/quote]

I rationalized this for years until I found out that absolutely no operation, no matter how small or how humane, lets every single one of their animals live out their entire natural lives.  And no small operation with a few "pet" cows can make money selling milk or cheese.  The process and equipment involved is too expensive and laborious.  There's no profit in it and it's too intense for just a hobby.  They would end up losing money.  Plus, slaughter is never, ever humane.  These animals don't drift peacefully off to sleep in someone's arms, ever. 

Erm.. animals are killed for dairy and egg farming. Male chicks and calves are a waste product of the industry.

Cows are kept continuously pregnant and their lives are cut short drastically.

To me, those seem pretty clearcut reasons for going vegan. Even very small "humane" farms have to engage in practices like that to an extent.

Another important reason is the environmental one. Dairy farming and egg farming is hugely inefficient in terms of resources (I think you get back 1/17th of the calories you feed the animal). A shift to veganism means a reduction in fossil fuel emissions, more water available, more agricultural land (especially in the Third World) and much less of a need to cut down tropical rainforests in South America, among other things.

The reason that has been discussed so far is the more philosophical one. It basically says that you should avoid using an another sentient being for your purposes if possible (in some ways, a variation on Kant's Categorical Imperative).

All in all, I don't really see a reason not to go vegan. 

A reason for not going vegan? Meat is deeelicious! Not to mention milk, eggs, cheese, and everything made from them! I guess I'm a lover of food way before I'm a lover of animals or the environment...ha! does that make me a bad person?

Dale, I don't think it makes you a good person or bad person, but definately person I would much rather cook dinner for me!  

I guess I meant in the broader sense. It seems to me that, if possible, you should avoid using or harming an animal. We don't need meat, dairy or egg, so why not do without it? That's just the vegan point of view.

I agree with heston that it doesn't make you a good or a bad person, though.

Congratulations, great article, great cake pans!

 This thread is WAY longer than anything on politics, etc, must have hit a nerve. Or at least a major hangup.  About good or bad, wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? And that Katie looks kinda cute, but is she Jewish? And what's with that screwed up puss, no last name, and army husband? Gotta be some issues there (like, eggs come out of a chicken's butt, I had no idea). That's no grosser than why we shouldn't drink water, considering what the fish do in it. Grow up, eat what you wanna, love your dog (and the cow you're about to eat. Pigs too.)                                       

Nice job, it only took 32 comments on a Q&A about vegan cooking for someone to Godwin the thread.  Congrats. 

And no, Hitler was not a vegetarian, but go you for buying the ancient propaganda!

Also, eggs are gross. They're basically chicken placenta.

Some of these comments are really inappropriate. This is an interview by a vegan with a vegan about veganism. If you're not interested, fine. Don't read it. The target audience is mostly vegan anyway. 

Leaving ill-informed comments bashing the diet or people's personal reasons for following it is not in any way constructive.

if a cow could eat you, it would

Huh...now there's a strong argument to eat meat; if cows were aggressive and carniverous, they would overrun us! Help! Run! Almost as ridiculous as the Hitler argument (huh, Gandhi was a vegetarian though). Hitler had a moustache too, does that make moustache wearers proof of the moral failings of the moustachse lifestyle (maybe not, though certainly Williamsburg or Wicker Park hipsters may fall well into that argument)?

Last I checked cows didn't have the ability to make rational, ethical-based decisions--isn't that one of the important qualities that distinguishes humans? However you choose to approach the ethnical life (meat or no meat) isn't it worth at least thinking about?