Laurel, I'm surprised at you. Saying that things can never be settled with Germany sounds so knee-jerk, and so much like my Grandma who, after traveling the whole globe, reluctantly agreed to go to Germany but poohpooh'd it the entire time based, as I see it, solely on the holocaust. I guess that's fine and all, but I like to think that SOMEDAY this issue doesn't have to exist between our the two peoples. I rarely hear the Mayans complaining about the Spaniards, for example. To be fair, those Mayans are a pretty quiet bunch, though.

That it "will" never be settled, not so much "can" never be settled. Because of the way we approach it, because it's all so loaded, because human nature is what it is...

And I guess I don't mean "never" but rather "not anytime I'll get to see."

I just don't believe it. I don't believe, based on the way we all react to this powder-keg, that we'll be ready anytime this century.  

This could be a very big conversation....

  xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

I would be reluctant to say that it can or should ever be settled -- if what we mean by "settled" is that an agreement has been reached that we don't need to think about, talk about, or remember it anymore, or that Germany as a nation does not have to acknowledge it as an unforgivable transgression that is part of their history. Wouldn't this also be a slap in the face to survivors, or the memories of those who perished in the Shoah? I just don't think things can be settled in this respect, though they CAN be worked through, and Jews CAN acknowledge the efforts of Germany to make reparations (it's not so much about the money as it is about seeing an effort to TRY to make up for what happened), and new relationships CAN begin to be forged. It's also problematic since it can't be forgiven, since only the murdered have a right to grant forgiveness, which is impossible. So the question, then, maybe, is what do you do about a collective transgression that can't be forgiven, when there's nobody left to offer forgiveness?

Laurel, first: Agreed, then. We're back to seeing eye-to-eye on everything.

Monica: I'm afraid I disagree pretty strongly with what you've said. Someday I believe Germany as a nation will cease to exist and maybe it will be because it has become fully assimilated into some other nation, or the European Union, or as citizens of this planet. Thn what happens? Are you going to trace out the lineage of every descendent of 1940's Germany? Does it have to be 1940's Germany? Can it be Germans emigrants from post-World War II Germany? What about Germans who lived and died before the Holocaust? Are they to be blamed and stigmatized? Surely they're responsible in some way for laying the groundwork for what happened.

And what then? Are you going to demand reparations from them or companies and organizations headed by people of German descent on a rolling basis over the next few millenia? When will it end?

And when are you no longer a German? If the descendent of an SS weds and sires a child with an African is that child under the broad scope of Germanic responsibility for the holocaust? Even if he's brown? What if it was with a Jew? If that German Jew goes up to head BMW, is he going to have to pay out of pocket reparations?

No, of course not. These people are just Germans. We can't crucify them for the sins of their fathers. I appreciate the modern nation of Germany's apologies for their history, but within a generation I hope it won't be necessary anymore.

And I don't know how you can say the murdered are the only ones who have a right to grant forgiveness. Look at it in some ways, and that right isn't even their's. It's God's alone. In other ways, a murderer really could use forgiveness from a whole mess of other people.

So what do you do about a collective transgression that can't be forgiven when there's nobody left to forgive? Nothing. You dion't give a rat's ass from it. History learned (or didn't) from the Holocaust. Forgiveness has nothing to do with it. Sticking with my Mayan example from above (because I sure like me the Mayans) I'm not weeping for the Mayans, but I did learn a valuable lesson which I follow every day of my life: Don't go conquer indigenous, technologically-weaker tribes. And every day it's hard, but hey, I feel like it's made me a better person.

"So the question, then, maybe, is what do you do about a collective transgression that can't be forgiven, when there's nobody left to offer forgiveness?"

What about when there's no one left of the actual transgressors to offer an apology? Future generations of Germans can no more legitimately apologize for the Holocaust than the descendants of the Jews who died can legitimately offer forgiveness. The Holocaust should and will be remembered for the atrocity it was--an atrocity perpretated by specific people at a specific time. Asking future generations of Germans to bear everlasting guilt is seeking to create damaging and lasting divisions among ourselves.

L

Whoa, easy Craig. I actually agree with everything you're saying--so I'm guessing that I was not entirely clear in making my points. First, the notion of murder being the only unforgivable transgression is not mine -- it's a Jewish, rabbinic, notion. I can forgive a murderer for robbing me of a loved one, but I cannot forgive him/her for the murder--it's about the ethical (two people), not the political (three or more). I didn't make it up. I simply think it's an interesting principle to consider when it comes to all this talk about reparations, and I was thinking the issue through in a more abstract/philosophical way, I suppose.

 Also--back to the first sentence of my original comment: "I would be reluctant to say that it can or should ever be settled -- if what we mean by "settled" is that an agreement has been reached that we don't need to think about, talk about, or remember it anymore, or that Germany as a nation does not have to acknowledge it as an unforgivable transgression that is part of their history." Note that I laid out a specific definition of "settled" for the context of my comment-- I said nothing about crucifying them for the sins of their fathers (good lord, my mother's 1/2 German, which makes me 1/4 German; yikes); I said nothing about demanding reparations. It is about memorialization. It is about not forgetting. It is about recognizing that a sum of money does not cancel anything out, that lives lost are worth more than any sum of money, whether those lives are Jewish, German, Polish, Mayan, or any other kind of life. I was thinking about the words we use in discussions of life and death: words like "settled," which really shouldn't enter the equation. I just can't imagine looking someone like Elie Wiesel in the face and saying, "Okay, it's all settled now! You don't need to talk about it anymore." That was my point--the words and rhetoric we use, and the impact those words have. We are still living in a generation of living survivors--it's gross to use such words. In 100 years--I don't know, but I'm concerned with here and now.

Finally, I thought that what I said about the fact that Jews can and should acknowledge Germany's effort, and that new relationships can be forged, gestures toward the possibility of getting past some of this--not forgetting, but getting to the point where there is no hostility, where the party who has wronged another has accepted full responsibility for the sins--and that is a process, one that we are still in. But, Germany has done a hell of a job when it comes to making efforts at apology and reparation--something Poland should take a lesson from.

Anyway, either I am terrible at articulating my points, or you did not really read my comment carefully enough. At any rate, thanks for the thoughtful and insightful response to my comment.

I want to say, forst, that in blog-land this happens a lot. We post fast and think later about semantics, finer tuning. But often, good things come from it.

 Second, i want to say that for me... the goal in this is to strike a balance between reason and sympathy.

I think we "should" be able to forgive/settle, but I also want to remain aware that not everyone can reach that far, and I want to be sure I'm not judging others for their emotional invovlement. I'm pretty removed from this, and I want to remember that others are closer in.  If we say that we "should" forgive, I want to be sure we aren't accusing people of not being ready to forgive.

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com