What's the Difference Between an American Life and an Ultra-Orthodox One?

He seems to have been a very bad person. Imagine not thanking the person who saved your life, nor even acknowledging the fact.

What's your source for this?

Why did he continue to have followers despite his disastrous prediction that god would protect them from the Nazis and the disastrous policies that flowed from that?

>>>Why did he continue to have followers despite his disastrous prediction that god would protect them from the Nazis and the disastrous policies that flowed from that?<<<

Because people need to believe. 

>>>What's your source for [not thanking, etc.]?<<<

Several, most prominently, the book Kasztner's Train. And, during years of living in haredi communities, I heard the story of Teitelbaum's rescue. Absent from those stories was Kasztner, his train, or any mention of Zionists helping Teitelbaum. 

Thanks for the citations.

I guess you're right that people need to believe, but thankfully not everyone needs to believe to such a degree that this overrides all else.

Why did the Israeli Court Labeld Kastner after the infaimos kastner trial that he: Sold his soul for the devil.... ?

after reading numerous books and searching for the real story behind the "Kastner train" story, the truth is that without the rabbi Teitelbaum there would have been no Train, his followers are the ones who paid the sum for the train after Joel brand didn't came up with the money.

exceedingly poorly written article...when Teitelbaum came here, he had nothing. No one forced anyone to support him. He developed his community the way he wanted to, from the ground up. Yes, he was anti-Zionist - this is a free country, and you are allowed to disagree with other people. I'm pro-Zionist, but respect the rabbi for his very notable achievements. His desire to live to a higher standard was for himself and his community - and in fact, contrary to your screed, he was approachable and had friendly relationships with many of the "American Orthodox". Stop demonizing people you disagree with.

>>>after reading numerous books and searching for the real story behind the "Kastner train" story, the truth is that without the rabbi Teitelbaum there would have been no Train, his followers are the ones who paid the sum for the train after Joel brand didn't came up with the money.<<<

This is absolutely false. 

>>>His desire to live to a higher standard was for himself and his community - and in fact, contrary to your screed, he was approachable and had friendly relationships with many of the "American Orthodox"<<<

As long as they were not Religious Zionists or Modern. And as long as they came to him. And as long as they didn't challenge him. And as long as they didn't ask him to thank Kasztner.

Interesting article. I didn't know a lot about him. Thanks for writing.

Shmarya,

Would you please be so kind as to share the sources for facts mentioned in your story?

Thanks,

Steve

I agree that people need to believe, the question is "believe in what ?". Sadly, it seems that people of all religions, from all corners of the world seem to hold on to the beliefs they were taught as children, even before they were equipped to think about the likelihood or sensibility of what they were taught. Once these ideas are engrained in their minds.. people seem unable to even contemplate an alternative. This is despite the obvious fact that only one of the world's belief systems can possibly be “perfect” (a claim they all make) and no matter which religion or religious sub-group you belong to, there are many others that should cause any rational man to ask an honest question or two. On respecting Mr. Teitelbaum. I have to strongly disagree with Anonymous above on a few points. Mr. Teitelbaum does not deserve respect. He left one fascist culture only to create a new one in America and to use religion as the basis for his decisions. The Satmar chasidim clearly have a separatist attitude and do not foster relationships with people of any kind outside of their community and they clearly use emotional blackmail to hold onto their constituents. Many of them actively call out for the destruction of the state of Israel. Yes, in America you do have freedom, but that does not it is appropriate to exercise it to create a separatist movement, that elevates you and your people above all others (the very idea of this should be repulsive to all people) and publicly creates continuous Chilluli Hashem ("disgrace of god" is the best translation I can come up with) is respectable. I can name numerous other groups who built organizations from the bottom up, gained power and exercised it... I will leave their names to your imagination - but they are not all respectable (although they have all been respected).  The ideas promoted by Mr. Teitelbaum, I would argue are counter to the ideas of Judaism that many of us value. The social and moral obligations of one man to another... the very ideas that seem to be the one thread across so many religions.

The appropriately named "Heretic", Shmarya, continues to pretend that Kasztner was not the murdering Nazi collaborator that he was, based on some book that contradicts thousands of eyewitnesses.

 Most readers here are probably unaware that Kasztner was later put on trial in Israel for this but that his life was taken by assassins that may have been sent by the Mossad because of who else could be implicated.

Well, there are LOTS of other kinds of Hassidim beside the Satmar Hassidim. ("Ultra-orthodox" means Hassidim.) Don't tar them all with the same brush.

If you see a guy in a black hat, he could be Modern Orthodox, NOT Hassidic.

A guy in a long black frock coat or ear-locks is Hassidic. But, not at all necessarily affiliated with the people discussed in this post! Not at all! It is quite possible he doesn't like them any more than the writer of this post.

Yes, G-d bless America. It's a free country.

Why does Teitelbaum, and others of the same ilk, have
followers?

Historians of pedagogy and psychoanalysts shed some light on
this apparent mystery.  Simply put: the
baby’s will is shaped (stamped out) in the cradle.  And, like other children, children who grow
up in such strict environments “love” the enforcing caregivers (parents, rebbe).

For most of recorded history, pedagogy consisted of stamping
out a child’s will; Hasidic education remains stuck in the 18th
century on this front too.  Admittedly,
the corporeal punishments used to eradicate the child’s will have eased up in
Hasidic circles too, but, as the strictest pedagogues point out, if you start
the process of molding the child’s emotions early enough, you won’t need
to resort to “corporeal” punishment.  A
look, a stare, can suffice. 

The ultra-orthodox draw strict boundaries around what is
permitted exploration; boundaries for the infant, the toddler, the child.  Transgressions are punished.  Like most kids, Satmar kids love their
parents and find it hard, impossible, to consider what happened to them in childhood
an abuse of power rather than love.  On
top of this, they are taught (in the cradle) that they MUST honor father and
mother, in ALL circumstances….

Why does Teitelbaum, and others of the same ilk, have
followers?

Historians of pedagogy and psychoanalysts shed some light on
this apparent mystery.  Simply put: the
baby’s will is shaped (stamped out) in the cradle.  And, like other children, children who grow
up in such strict environments “love” the enforcing caregivers (parents, rebbe).

For most of recorded history, pedagogy consisted of stamping
out a child’s will; Hasidic education remains stuck in the 18th
century on this front too.  Admittedly,
the corporeal punishments used to eradicate the child’s will have eased up in
Hasidic circles too, but, as the strictest pedagogues point out, if you start
the process of molding the child’s emotions early enough, you won’t need
to resort to “corporeal” punishment.  A
look, a stare, can suffice. 

The ultra-orthodox draw strict boundaries around what is
permitted exploration; boundaries for the infant, the toddler, the child.  Transgressions are punished.  Like most kids, Satmar kids love their
parents and find it hard, impossible, to consider what happened to them in childhood
an abuse of power rather than love.  On
top of this, they are taught (in the cradle) that they MUST honor father and
mother, in ALL circumstances….

Which facts do you need sources for?

>>>Shmarya, continues to pretend that Kasztner was not the murdering Nazi collaborator that he was, based on some book that contradicts thousands of eyewitnesses.<<<

There are no "eyewitnesses" to anything of the kind.

>>>Most readers here are probably unaware that Kasztner was later put on trial in Israel for this<<<

He was.

And Israel's Supreme Court exonerated him. Yad Vashem, Israel's national Holocaust museum, has also been very public in its support for Kasztner, as have literally dozens of Holocaust scholars and historians, including native Slovak and Hungarian speakers who have access to archives closed until the fall of the Soviet Union.

>>>but that his life was taken by assassins that may have been sent by the Mossad because of who else could be implicated.<<<

Um, perhaps the men that killed him – all former Stern Gang members associated with Israel's hard right.

Shmarya,

In a perfect world, I would want sources for every fact you state.

In this context, can you simply provide your primary and secondary source for your information?

Steve

I agree that Rabbi Teitelbaum was not a zionist. Shmarya, are you a zionist?

"There are no "eyewitnesses" to anything of the kind."

FALSE

There was Malkiel Grunwald and thousands of others who saw collaborator Kasztner tell Jews to get on the trains to Auschwitz while the Nazis let him drive around in a car.

Read "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht if you can find a copy. For years, all known copies would disappear from book stores and libraries because Mossad agents & Israeli diplomats were under orders to either buy or steal them.

"Historians" also dispute Genesis, the splitting of the Red Sea and a host of other facts, but then again, the "Heretic" shouldn't give a damn about that.

"Many of the men and women who immigrated to pre-Holocaust America did so to flee men like Teitelbaum and the extremism that so often surrounds them."

Thanks to the freedom of religion in this country they are still free from that extremism if they wish to be.  Teitelbaum and his followers purposely isolated themselves away from the rest of society, including that of secular and non-extreme Orthodox Judiasm.  So his existence, and his refusal to "mix" with other Jews has no effect on these Jews that you write about.  I fail to see the issue....other than some perceived lack of gratitude on Tietelbaum's part for his saviors, who cares what Satmar Jews do?  Who cares if they look down their noses at other forms of Orthodox Jewry? 

http://nymag.com/news/features/48532/

 It's about a woman who tried to flee the Satmar with her baby, only to become embroiled in a nasty custody fight with the baby's father.   The article is very sympathetic to the mother, although she's not entirely innocent.

But the Satmar come across as true nutcases.  I have no idea how much of it is true.

--Z

>>>can you simply provide your primary and secondary source for your information<<<

1. Kasztner's Train by Anna Porter.

2. Copious writings published by Satmar affiliates over the past 60 years, including a charming illustrated children's book on Passover showing the Jews with shtreimels and long black coats and the erev rav, mixed multitude, dressed like Modern Orthodox Jews and wearing knitted kippot. 

>>>There are no "eyewitnesses" to anything of the kind."

FALSE

There was Malkiel Grunwald and thousands of others who saw collaborator Kasztner tell Jews to get on the trains to Auschwitz while the Nazis let him drive around in a car.<<<

 Grunwald was not an eyewitness. I don't even think he testified at the first trial.

And, as you know but do not bother to mention, Kasztner was exonerated by Israel's Supreme Court.

Now, 50 years later, we have access to much archival material from Slovkia and Hungary – material that was not available when Israel's hard right slandered Kasztner.

Again, as you certainly know but do not bother to mention, that material overwhelmingly exonerates Kasztner. On the other hand, it doesn't make Teitelbaum look any better. 

>>>Read "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht if you can find a copy. For years, all known copies would disappear from book stores and libraries because Mossad agents & Israeli diplomats were under orders to either buy or steal them.<<<

Please. Satmar had copies of it in print for years. You could buy dozens from almost any bookstore in Williamsburg, Kiryat Joel or Mea Shearim.

I bought mine in Mea Shearim 21 years ago, along with a anti-Zionist  screed written by Satmar hasidim.

Hecht did not have access to most of the information, documents and witness that supported Kaszner.

Worse than that, he did not try to have access.

Hecht (the famous playwright), was a very well-meaning man who gave his all to save Jews during the Holocaust.

But  Hecht was also an  ideologue closely associated with Israel's hard right. The hard right, as you know but do not mention, was behind the trial. Indeed, Gruenwald's attorney Shmuel Tamir took the case on the condition that Gruenwald -- the plaintiff! -- have no control in how the case was run. Tamir was way to right of Menachem Begin. He fought to remove Begin from Herut leadership. At the same time, Tamir openly fought to bring down the labor government, and used Gruenwald and Kastner as a vehicle to do it.

And, again, as you know but do not mention, Israel's Supreme Court exonerated Kasztner. So has history. 

>>>"Historians" also dispute Genesis, the splitting of the Red Sea and a host of other facts, but then again, the "Heretic" shouldn't give a damn about that.<<< 

You confuse BELIEF in a religious idea with fact.

Factually, the Exodus as portrayed in the Torah did not happen. Neither did the conquest of Israel as portrayed in Joshua. 

Historians, scientists and rationalists operate on FACT. Religion operates on BELIEF.

Believe whatever you like -- just do not confuse your belief with fact.

>>>Thanks to the freedom of religion in this country they are still free from that extremism if they wish to be. Teitelbaum and his followers purposely isolated themselves away from the rest of society, including that of secular and non-extreme Orthodox Judiasm. So his existence, and his refusal to "mix" with other Jews has no effect on these Jews that you write about. I fail to see the issue....other than some perceived lack of gratitude on Tietelbaum's part for his saviors, who cares what Satmar Jews do? Who cares if they look down their noses at other forms of Orthodox Jewry? <<<

 Because Satmar and Teitelbaum along with his allies didn't simply wall themselves off – they also tried to force the rest of American Orthodoxy to comply with their demands.

..... Kasztner's Train by Anna Porter.

That only accounts for a part of your facts.

>>>>2. Copious writings published by Satmar affiliates over the past 60 years,

and the names of these writings (in English or Yiddish) are?

>>>including a charming illustrated children's book on Passover showing the Jews with shtreimels and long black coats and the erev rav, mixed multitude, dressed like Modern Orthodox Jews and wearing knitted kippot

And what other colouring books did you use as a reference?

 Steve

I agree that Rabbi Teitelbaum was not a zionist. Shmarya, are you a zionist?

And what other colouring books did you use as a reference?

That remark makes no sense. Satmar publishes and sell children's books with evil characters wearing knitted kippot and the good characters dressed as Satmars. Does this simply go over your head?

Past that, if you want specific sources for something I wrote, be specific.

"Grunwald was not an eyewitness. I don't even think he testified at the first trial."

 He was originally charged with libel because the Zionists wanted to cover up the truth. Those trumped up charges were dropped because the truth about Kasztner's atrocities prevailed.

"Kasztner was exonerated by Israel's Supreme Court."

A court that has been in error before.

"50 years later, we have access to much archival material from Slovkia and Hungary"

 You didn't have to wait those 50 years to know that Kasztner went running to Nuremburg to plead for the life of his murderous Nazi pals. 

"On the other hand, it doesn't make Teitelbaum look any better."

 It sure does, that spoke up to expose Nazi collaborator Kasztner.

"Perfidy" by Ben Hecht ... Satmar had copies of it in print for years. You could buy dozens from almost any bookstore in Williamsburg, Kiryat Joel or Mea Shearim."

And your point is? I can name many more stores owned by orthodox Jews in mixed neighborhoods where secular Israeli agents could enter freely without sticking out. In these locations, copies of Perfidy were hidden away and only sold to Orthodox Jews so that the Zionists would not clean them out.

"Hecht did not have access to most of the information, documents and witness that supported Kaszner."

Support for Kasztner is agenda driven. His family is keen on clearing his dirty name. Zionists want to cover up for the Mossad hit on him and prevent exposure of higher ups like Ben Gurion himself who helped create the high numbers of Jews available for the Nazis to slaughter.

"Worse than that, he did not try to have access."

Why try to access "information" from those trying to beautify the piece of dirt when there are thousands of witnesses who saw Kasztner telling Jews to get on trains to Auschwitz. An irrefutable fact you try to deny.

And funny how you smear Hecht before praising him here:

"Hecht (the famous playwright), was a very well-meaning man who gave his all to save Jews during the Holocaust."

True.

"Hecht was also an  ideologue closely associated with Israel's hard right."

 Spoken like a partisan Democrat supporter of Barack Islamobama.

 "The hard right, as you know but do not mention, was behind the trial."

 Because the Left was trying to suppress the truth.

"So has history."

 The "exoneration" is in your dreams.

"Exodus as portrayed in the Torah did not happen. Neither did the conquest of Israel as portrayed in Joshua."

Spoken like the true Heretic. I pity you after heaving read what outcome awaits those who deny the Exodus. Repent before it's too late.

"Historians, scientists and rationalists operate on FACT. Religion operates on BELIEF."

The facts are there despite your refusal to face them. Scientists have long tried to debunk the Bible and fellow scientists only to "replace" them with their own bunk which is itself ideologically and/or ego driven.

I guess when the facts, history, science and logic are all against you, all you have left is conspiracy theories.

The man was exonerated. Dozens of historians support him. The facts support him.

This is a textbook example of how ultra-Orthodox society really works.

Normally, the halakha (Jewish law) would be to judge the man's actions by the facts, and would take into account expert opinions (i.e., could a have happened on this date when b also happened on this date nearby).

In this case, the facts do not support an ultra-Orthodox myth. Neither do the experts.

What happens? 

The experts are attacked as "biased." All evidence supporting Kasztner is tossed aside or explained away as being part of a conspiracy theory. And poor Kasztner remains "guilty."

Reality and ultra-Orthodoxy do not mix.