
Turkey's fear-mongering theatrics are working: US Representatives are indicating that they may be voting their fears instead of their values.
Or do I smell a backlash around the corner? what? Turkey using blackmail? threatening our servicemen?
Shame on Turkey for blackmailing us, and shame on our representatives for betraying our values!
But I was sitting here in Memphis, TN, dealing with my own share of denialists ...
CONGRATULATIONS and THANKS to all !!!
Send your funds to another organization.
there are many other organizations out there that are a lot more worthy of your money. Tell your parents that, too.
Try Facing History ---- > facing.org
The only way for Foxman to understand and apologize (or better yet - resign) is to cut funding the ADL.
Stop sending any money to the ADL until it redresses itself to a proper moral standard.
Spread the word.
Turkey says it wants to leave the matter to historians, but here is how it treats its own historians:
www.akcam.info
What would the ADL do if Holocaust scholars were treated this way?
Where would the world be if Holocaust scholars were treated this way?
Alex, below you will find a scholarly review of Lewy's book that was printed in the Russian Review in October 2006. It is a review by Gerard Libaridian, A professor of History at the U. of Michigan and an intellectual who commands international respect, including amongst Turks and Turkish historians. This review denounces and discredits Lewy very convincingly in my view.
But beforehand I would like to set the record straight: the language you have used is foul, bitter, threatening and hateful. Of this entire message board, you’re the only one who has cowered to this level. You accuse me of righteousness yet make bizarre claims for yourself on being ‘honorable’ and holding ‘respectful neutrality.’ You also claim righteousness in determining what determines the legitimacy of a court.
These are strange methods of arguing or expressing mere opinions.
I called you a 'denialist' after a series of inquiries and analysis and I stick to it. That’s my opinion, and I base it on the the facts you presented, on how you presented them and on your general approach at interpreting these facts, which I view as slanted, flawed and, at times, downright mischievous.
I did not once insult you Alex, yet you liberally insult me and bizarrely try to find refuge in falsely accusing me of insulting you -- a very weird tactic, especially when all evidence is available in the messages above.
At this time I don’t see the point in continuing this or any discussion with you under such circumstances. This has degenerated too far into insults and hate-language to be worthy of this board, and I am not interested in cowering to that level.
db
_________________________________
Guenter Lewy
The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey. A Disputed Genocide.
The University of Utah Press, 2005
331 pp+biblio+index+3 maps
Guenter Lewy has taken on an enduring controversy, Armenian-Turkish relations and, specifically, how to characterize what the Turkish government did to the Armenian people during the First World War. His aim is to promote reconciliation by splitting the differences, which means arguing that this was not a genocide.
In the 14 chapters of the book Lewy presents the historical settings; the “two rival” historiographies, “Armenian” and “Turkish;” he offers a reconstruction of “what we know and what we do not know;” and pronounces his definitive answer. An Epilogue urges Armenians and Turks to apologize to each other, since both sides did some killing.
May be the time had come to take a look back and crystallize the state of knowledge and points of difference. Unfortunately this is not that book. Such an undertaking requires better knowledge of primary sources, a more judicious review of secondary sources, and a distance from political considerations.
His main claim to being an impartial observer is that he is neither of Turkish or Armenian origin. We thought the time for such bases of objectivity had passed. His characterization of those scholars who think this was a genocide as “supporters of the Armenian cause” shows a disdain of the scholarship of others on whose work he is relying and of historical knowledge itself. It is also symptomatic of his essentially racist approach toward Armenians and sometimes Turks.
What this controversy does not need are the tactics characteristic of a clever defense lawyer who is trying to get off his client, so to speak, on technicalities. His methodology is based on the manipulation of facts and the episodic selection from the massive evidence that belies his main argument.
A few examples will suffice. Lewy dismisses the Ottoman courts martial of officials responsible for the government’s policies since those charged with crimes did not receive a fair trial by American standards: the judges acted as prosecutors. Yet Ottoman justice was based on the French system within which, until now, judges do act like prosecutors. A second reason he dismisses the courts martial evidence—that were based on unchallenged verbatim reports-- for the plan to annihilate the Armenian people is that the original documents of the proceedings have disappeared. Lewy then dismisses by a slight of hand the testimony of survivors. His knowledge of extant material, as in other areas, is scant and sporadic. He is not aware of the extensive collections other than the one mentions. He dismisses those he is aware of as inadmissible in his court because memory is faulty and can be distorted. Levy ignores many hundreds of reports of German, American and other ambassadors and consuls that testify to the massive and planned character of the tragedy and selects one case where a German consul decided to investigate reports of corpses of Armenians outside the city. Accompanied by an American consul, he visits the site and finds only one corpse, implying that the other reports could not be trusted.
Lewy does not deal with the cumulative impact of extant sources and research. Even an American jury would have looked suspiciously at a defense that has to minimize, dispute, distort, dismiss and ignore so much evidence. To conclude that what happened was not genocide is to believe that there was a huge conspiracy among thousands of survivors, foreign diplomats, including those allied with the Ottoman Empire or neutral in the war, missionaries and other eye witnesses to create mutually supportive evidence on events that unfolded over two intense years in full public view implemented by a dictatorial government at war in control of the territory where the crime occurred. One would also have to believe these leaders did not know what was happening in the country or did not know the consequences of their actions. The memoirs of these CUP leaders and others who were in contact with them during those years make it clear that these leaders knew exactly what they were doing.
One may excuse a non-specialist for the numerous errors in this volume related to the historical record, some of which are listed at http://meforum.org/article/748. But it is difficult to understand mistakes that relate to recent times. Turkey, for example, could not have broken off diplomatic relations with Armenia after the latter’s independence, as the author asserts, since Turkey had none to break off; Armenia was part of the USSR. While considered in isolation such errors may not count for much, for a work that claims to resolve this issue the cumulative impact is a volume with shoddy and careless scholarship.
It is unfortunate that a respected historian decided to find a “quick-fix” to a controversy through the equivalent of plea bargain or as if he was haggling in a bazaar. History can be challenged, analyzed, understood but not negotiated.
To contribute to this debate a social scientist will need to transcend a number of biases by asking better questions than have been asked, by developing new perspectives within which new and old sources make more sense and come closer to a common history. For that, one needs to have scholarly integrity and keep aside essentially political aims—such as reconciliation at any cost. Lewy seems to be aware of the Workshop for Armenian/Turkish Scholarship initiated in 2000, but seems not to have grasped the principles underlying its work. It brings together scholars of Armenian, Turkish and other origin who, above all, are patient and modest, respect each other’sintellectual integrity, and face the evidence.
The underlying problem with this volume is that its author does not recognize that by now the conflict is no longer between two histories. Rather, it is between, on the one hand, an emerging consensus among Armenian, Turkish and Western scholars that government policy toward Armenians was genocide or genocidal and, on the other, the position taken by the Turkish government that it was neither. Historians who insist otherwise are the ones with a “cause.”
Gerard Libaridian
Department of History
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
For years now I've been challenging denialism wherever and whenever it surfaces. But never in my wildest nightmares have I imagined I would challenge the ADL -- of all organizations -- on this issue!
Abe Foxman is a disgrace. His continued silence is appalling. By all means, count me in!