Hate Talk Express: John McCain Endorsed By Notorious Bigot John Hagee

I didn't get, or wouldn't get, all worked up if Farrakahn endorses Obama and Obama doesn't immediately denounce/reject/whatever it. People endorse who they want. However, the problem so many folks have with new candidates--they had the same problem when Bush ran the first time, bringing up his national guard duties--is that voters are looking for some way to get to know the guy, whoever the guy is.

No one knows Obama. So we're scrambling around trying to figure out how he really feels about things, how he will really react in a crisis (there's always a crisis). Now, if Obama said he would make Farrakahn the Secretary of State, that's a problem. Hagee will continue with his ministry in the same way no matter who is elected, the same is true for Farrakahn.

And it's not McCain, who did denounce some conservative talk radio dude the other day (and is that guy upset), who is calling for Obama to denounce Farrakahn, it was Hillary who made a big deal out of it.

So, in the world of political symbolism, yes, you're right. In the world of realpolitik, it's a blip.

It is interesting that the nation media hasn't said anything concerning this endorsement that McCain is receiving from Hager but when Obama get's is endoresment from Min. Farrakhan in which denounce him, Fox News and MSNBC ran with and now is call him a danger to American politics.

Like finally. Erhmmm since WHEN have xtians been our buddies? Their belief states:

We killed their gd (HELLO YIKES) and he is gonna come back with a vengeance. The only reason xtians support Israel is in order for jesus to return and basically annihilate all non believers.

So what's all the crying and moaning about muslims and arabs. At least we didnt kill their diety and at least we received THE RIGHT TO EXIST under their rule. The way I see it, although not always a picnic - jews fared infinitely better under muslim rule than xtian rule. Thanks to the f'ing xtians Israel got established and we got into trouble with the arabs. Meanwhile they (the xtians) are hypocrites, playing us all for fools in order to gain economic momentum. What foley.

I miss the days we lived WITH arabs. All the thousands of years of history we have in the middle east - gone and replaced by pathetic askeNAZI ''culture'' ie modern israeli crap.  

Daniel, you are way off base. Hagee is philo-semitic and an obvious friend of the state of Israel and the Jewish people.

On the other hand, it is a clear problem that not only Farrakhan but a whole group of miscreants are quick to endorse Obama and this easily can be said to reflect poorly on Obama. Socialists, Muslims and terrorists, radical left leaders in Europe and throughout the world see their vision (mostly destructive) benefited by the election of Obama.

Farrakhan clearly has some commonality with Obama and before his declaration for the Presidency, Obama had nothing but nice things to say about Farrakhan--now that he is running, it is all somewhat dismissive. Is there any question why Lieberman was quick to endorse McCain?

On a blog site with all kinds of outrages and contortions--this one rates in the top half of simply without foundation. I would be pleased to have Hagee at my home and shake his hand for all the good he does for Israel and his desire for common cause with the Jewish people. To compare him with a known bigot is a insult to reason.

Is it calling Catholicism "the Great Whore" and "the Antichrist," blaming Hurricane Katrina on gay people, claiming that persecution of the Jews is our own fault for not accepting Jesus, or gleefully calling for Israel to be wiped out in a nuclear holocaust that appeals to you the most?

Maybe the results of sexual conduct 20 years earlier is hard to quantify or scientifically prove, although even in those cases you could manage to find a few statistics to back up your point.

But here, Koffler's posted something chock-full-of quotes, mostly from reliable sources or actual video tapes, that convincingly show Hagee is a total bigot.  

 Do you think Koffler is quoting things out of context?  Has Hagee renounced his prior views?  Has he said other nice things that somehow make up for this outrageous, hateful speech?  If so, please FIND A SOURCE.  With the internet, it's much easier  to do research than when you were a kid--give Google a try.  But for heaven's sake do you think you're convincing anyone by saying the guy is an "obvious" friend to Israel?

--Z

Dan's posting here is inflammatory and off the wall and you want me to back up my points??  This is bizarre.

Hagee has spoken in front of literally dozens of Jewish groups and has earned praise is many quarters here and in Israel. He has done more than perhaps any one in the entire country to foster pro-Israel relations.  His efforts are excellent and heroic and our community owes this guy a bit more than insults.  It is really astonishing.  He has distributed thousands of his recent book "Stand with Israel" to every member of Congress and to thousands of Americans (he send me three!!).  Please read the book.  It is painful to think only a nut would actually want to stand with Israel--Hagee is no nut and he is a sincere, honest and consistent friend.

 Farrakhan, by contrast, is universally derided as a bigot.   He wants Israel eliminated and he has called Jews "wicked" and Judaism a "gutter religion."  Obama's religious advisor adores Farrakhan.  This is a big problem.  Obama before he ran for President had good things to say about Farrakhan.  Farrakhan supports Obama.

The contrast could not be bigger between a Jew lover and a Jew hater.  Good grief, ZBird. 

Lacking a moral compass is one sign of a problem.  Failing to distinguish between a man who is your biggest friend in the world vs. one who is genuine problem is  a serious kind of blindness.  Israel is in a precarious position and her enemies are hoping and praying for the election of Obama.  By contrast, Israel's friends are willing to support McCain.  As radicals, liberals and socialists--it is understandable that American Jews love Obama since Obama is a radical, a liberal and a socialist.  However, as we approach the election, I hope that these Obama supporters will consider changing their vote for Obama to McCain out of concern for what an Obama presidency might mean for Israel.  I just don't know how I could feel when the leaders of the Arab countries and the terrorists campaign for Obama and I vote for the same guy.  The fact that Israel is nervous about an Obama candidacy is apparent and the fact that Israel welcomes Hagee with open arms every time he comes to Israel is also apparent.  I regret you and others hate the  phrase "obvious."  It is preferable to go beyond the obvious since it makes for higher conversation.  Missing the obvious is a true problem and fearing and insulting a philo-semite like Hagee while making nice to Obama's supporters in the Arab and terror world is a problem.

Iran is praying Obama wins, Hagee is praying for Israel.  Do I really need to give you a survey--do I really need to document that it is "good" fine Christians want to support Israel and McCain and "bad" that Muslim clerics and Farrakhan want to support death to Israel and Obama?

Daniel: 

I do not believe it is any business of mine to even comment about Christian concepts like the "anti-Christ" or concerning the theology of Catholicism.  I take it for granted that Protestants do not like Catholics and vica versa.  Similarly, I don't respond to everthing the Pope has to say, unless it impinges on my life and I am not a Catholic.

Regarding the supposed scandal of Protestant Christian theology which sees a message in accidents such as large hurricanes-- this is rather normal theology and has a clear Jewish pedigree.  His point that it is a message about America's continued moral decay is a possibility.  If he goes further and says that gays are to blame for the hurricane, my guess here is that you are speaking out of context but I claim ignorance concerning the exact quote. If Hagee wants to believe that one big hurricane is a message concerning America's moral decay--I can't find this a scandal or even objectionable it is merely his theological position.  In fact, I think America is facing a potential downward spiral so the next few years are critical.

Not being of a spiritual bent, I followed Brother Friedman's comments to other Jewcy posts at a kind of anthropological distance. I have to admit a sort of grudging respect for his resolve to resist the cafeteria-style spirituality endorsed by so many religious Jewcers. I've always thought that there's no point to having religious convictions that you can tailor to suit whatever circumstance you find yourself in-maybe that's why I'm not religious.

That said, I must now state unequivocally that poor Friedman's lost whatever little shard of respect I had for him. Koffler makes a coherent case for there being a double standard regarding response to odious supporters of presidential candidates. Friedman's rejoinder is entirely-entirely-unresponsive to Koffler's points for his first two at-bats. On his third try, he declines to pronounce on comments from Christians as being irrelevant to him, and then sort of endorses Hagee's psychotic notions re assfucking and meteorology to explain the plight of displaced New Orleaneans.

I suppose this is a good illustration of the fact that, despite all the cumbaya moments religious folks and skeptics may share, when push comes to shove they operate from incompatible epistemological premises.

"Hey, the Deity sending a hurricane to drown infants because some guys like Judy Garland movies? Who knows? Could be."     

Please. 

The sentiment that the Almighty sends messages is standard fare among religious people, Ismail.  I am certainly not willing to condemn someone for having a belief.  This would be ludicrous.

If Hagee has policy suggestions that would harm any American as a result of his beliefs, I would be quick to denounce him--and note he has not made any such suggestions.

When some act of God strikes our nation--there will be people who believe this is a message from God.  Is this something to ridicule?

I believe the only proper and measured response for Jews to make is say maybe it is, maybe it is not.  The suggestion that having a thought that perhaps God is giving us a message--even for those of us that feel God never sends a message--is intolerant.

I will look up his exact quote and if he says point blank that the hurricane was a punishment from God for homosexuals, period--I will apologize and criticize Hagee for singling out homosexuals since there are many more examples of our cultural and moral decline. 

I looked up the quote and it was his opinion that the Hurricane represented God's judgment against New Orleans. It is not my theology which suggests every time that there is an act of God, it represents a punishment from the Almighty. However, a Supreme Being who acts in the world might send such a message--it is possible.

God Against New Orleans was the headline and this was his point. I would respond that he is entitled to his opinion and such an opinion is not very welcome given the human tragedy of such an event. Our thoughts and prayers, from my theological perspective, should be devoted to helping the victims of the event and NOT suggesting something which is unknown to man, namely, the Almighty's intentions. Popes and Pastors routinely speculate about such things--it is what they do. The headline that God has done something to punish New Orleans is not malice and not bigotry, it is merely a Christian opinion concerning how God works in the world. Alas, I do not agree with many things Christians say concerning their theology.

Hagee is to be applauded when he says things which are supportive to Jews and Israel and Jews have done this consistently, finding him to be a man with a good moral compass and with strong affections. These remarks, in contrast with his theological ones, concern man in this world. And on these matters, the Jews are with him. Why not Daniel Koffler? Defamation against a good man is unacceptable and shameful. I quickly join the long list of Jews who support this solid ally. By contrast, can someone name even one Jew who supports the bigot Farrakhan? Farrakhan supports his long-time friend, Obama.

From Wiki: Hagee has received numerous honors and accolades from national Jewish organizations for his support of Israel.[citation needed] Hagee was awarded the "Humanitarian of the Year" award by the San Antonio B'nai B'rith Council. It was the first time in the history of the San Antonio that this award was given to a gentile.[citation needed] Hagee was presented the ZOA Israel Award by U.N. Ambassador Jean Kirkpatrick. This award was given by the Jewish Community of Dallas, Texas.[citation needed] He was presented the ZOA Service Award by Texas Governor Mark White. Houston Mayor Kathy Whitmire issued a special proclamation in his honor declaring Pastor John C. Hagee Day.[citation needed]

Hagee has been to Israel twenty-two times and has met with every Prime Minister since Menachem Begin.
John Hagee Ministries has given more than $8.5 million to bring Soviet
Jews from the former Soviet Union to Israel. Hagee is also the Founder
and Executive Director of "A Night to Honor Israel",
an event which expresses solidarity between Christians and Jews on
behalf of Jerusalem, the State of Israel and the United States. [11].

On February 7, 2006, John Hagee and 400 leaders from the Christian and Jewish communities formed a new national organization called Christians United For Israel (CUFI) [12].
This organization is focused on communicating the need to defend
Israel, in light of Biblically-based matters, with members of the United States Congress.

"Dan's posting here is inflammatory and off the wall and you want me to back up my points??"

How is anyone supposed to know if Dan's posting is "off the wall" if you don't back up your points (no matter how many question marks you place at the end of a sentence)? Dan made numerous factual statements that are either true, false or maybe literally true but misleading for some reason. If the statements are false or misleading, then show me why, using a credible source, and I will, if not share your love of Hagee, at least start doubting whether Dan's contempt is justified. Do you deny that Hagee said the things he did?

But if Dan's statements are true, then they are obviously not "off the wall," and it shouldn't matter whether they are inflammatory--they deserve to be known.

--Z

What if some Muslim-American organization had said it?  Then it would be anti-American.  But when an evangelical Christian who supports Israel for nefarious and anti-semitic reasons says it, then all of a sudden it's ok and merely an exercise in free speech.

"I will apologize and criticize Hagee for singling out homosexuals since there are many more examples of our cultural and moral decline. "

Do I understand you to mean that homosexuality is an example of cultural and moral decline, just not one sufficient for an all-powerful supernatural being to drown infants?  

"I am certainly not willing to condemn someone for having a belief.  This would be ludicrous."

So if I believed that we need to deport African-Americans immediately, I should expect to hear only the sound of crickets from the Friedman camp?

"The suggestion that having a thought that perhaps God is giving us a message--even for those of us that feel God never sends a message--is intolerant."

I'm sure you didn't mean this-you probably meant that it's intolerant to deny the possibility of Divine pique over human sexual mores. Guilty. I'm intolerant of all sorts of mumbo-jumbo. And, yes, I do ridicule anyone who sees in the various catastrophes that afflict us all the hand of a peevish and narcissistic Bully.

The suggestion that I must defend Hagee for not being a bigot adds insult to injury. The conviction that Hagee is some kind of anti-Jewish demon is off the wall and unsupported by any evidence.  My point here is solid.  If you come to a public forum to defame a good man--you better show something.  What has Daniel shown you?  That he thought God punished New Orleans?  That he does not like Muslims?  That he fears the threats of the psycho leader of Iran so much he would find a pre-emptive strike against Iran justified?  Are these bad opinions? Even if you disagree with them that does not make the man a "bigot."  Normal Jews share these opinions (except, perhaps, the speculation concerning New Orleans.)

Hence, consider the cover of the book "Standing With Israel"--Daniel Ayalon, a moderate and Ambassador of Israel to the US says:  that the book has "brilliantly captured the spirit of brotherhood between the Jewish people and American Christians."  To say that this support is bad would be warped to say the least.  John Hagee is the best Christian friend one can cite for "the Jewish people"-- David Brog wrote the book--he is Hagee's colleague. 

Good grief, ZBird--if you can't follow this I don't know what to say.  Would a signed personal letter from B. Netanyahu help?  Would signed copies of letters of support from numerous Jewish leaders and organizations seal the deal?   Blantant bias and anger needs to be kept in check in our community.  I am shamed a Jew can say these kinds of things against an OBVIOUS philo-semite.  He has committed his life to supporting Israel and has brought hundreds of thousands of Americans to help Israel.  A thank you is a minimal bit of courtesy.  A defamation is off the wall and wrong.

Read "Standing with Israel" by David Brog, forward by John Hagee funded by Hagee, distributed by Hagee.  See WHY these Christians support Israel and see for yourself if this is "nefarious." Be thankful such a man is the kind of Christian that he will turn the other cheek when faced with such accusations from the radical wing of the Jewish community. 

Ismail: 

Hagee suggested no action against homosexuals--if he did I would denounce him.  No one is speaking about deportation of black people--where did this comment come from?

So you deny that it is not possible that our creator sends messages.  This might make ALL RELIGION mumbo-jumbo in your eyes.  This is your right to have this prejudice.  And you have admitted to such a prejudice.  I can only suggest if you want to be fair to people, try to judge their actions and not their beliefs.

If someone has a theological belief that the Creator will reward those who always brush and floss their teeth in the world to come, it would be silly but it is no cause to demonize them.  If someone has a theological belief that people the Creator will punish those who say bad things about others in hidden ways, this is not YOUR call to say they are harming others by *believing* such a thing.  It is merely your call to accept or reject such a belief.  This is true of all beliefs that hold no action or involve no impetus for action.

Sorry for the double negative--I meant to say "deny that it is possible...."

You said, "My point here is solid.  If you come to a public forum to defame a good man--you better show something.  What has Daniel shown you?  That he thought God punished New Orleans?  That he does not like Muslims . . . Are these bad opinions? Even if you disagree with them that does not make the man a "bigot."

Are you serious?  Change the word "Muslims" to "Jews" and now does that make the man a "bigot"?

It doesn't add up.  How can the man who says the following be a friend of the Jewish people, or any people who value tolerance and respect for all mankind:

"If you live your life and don't confess your sins to God Almighty through the authority of Christ and His blood, I'm going to say this very plainly, you're going straight to hell with a nonstop ticket." October, 2006 (here's a link - http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/110606dnTSWperry.351c57c.html)

That there rule seems pretty definite.  There doesn't seem to be much wiggle room to introduce an exception for Jews, even though I've read he purports to believe that an exception for Jews exists.  But I don't buy that.  I think in his mind, he is using Jews as a means to an end, and he will support Israel, even if it means the utter destruction of America, or even the whole world, so long as the end of days comes and Jesus battles it out against satan.  And somehow, in David F's mind, this freakshow is not anti-American and is not a bigot.  All I can say is WOW!

You'll notice that David's sole basis for portraying Hagee as a friend of the Jews is his unstinting support for Israel-or, to be more precise, for the most bellicose variant of current Israeli policy. Note further that, even within Israel-no, especially within Israel-there is significant support for the idea that unwavering US support for one version of Zionism hasn't been the best idea.

So even if support for Israel is the marker for "friend of Jews", Hagee falls to the right of many Israelis. And if one's notion of philosemitism refers to religious, cultural or social conceptions of Judaism, Israel isn't even in the picture.

So completely has support for right-wing Zionism eclipsed other aspects of Judaism among some Jews that we are treated to David performing ridiculous cognitive pirouettes to defend the porcine bigot Hagee.

Thought experiment: if Hagee were indifferent to Israel but otherwise held the same archaic notions of redemption via his brand of sun worship, with all the deleterious consequences that has for Jews, would he still register on David's radar as a friend? I think it's sad that, in David's eyes, Hagee's fealty to a political system trumps his unhinged worldview and his multiple prejudices, obvious to all but David.   

Ignore the Arab Islamofacist Nazi, David.  This guy is an anti-semitic who supports the murder of Jewish women and children through terrorism.  He's obssessed with Israel and the Jews because he's a loser who has no life.

The blood libel and the lies that the anti-semite writes is straight from the Hamas propganda machine.  It's a joke for a Jew-hater to call Pastor Hagee a bigot.  At least Hagee has supported Israel finacially and politically.  I don't give a shit on what his view are on the "the end days" and the Jews and neither do many Israeli leaders who've hosted Hagee on numerous visits.

 The real enemies of the Jews are people like Obama and Ismail.  The later is a loser who nobody cares about but Obama is a real danger because he will try to destroy Israel if he gets elected President of the United States.

David,

Just to clarify, I hadn't seen your 11:11 PM post when I  posted at 11:20 PM last night -- I was replying to your earlier post from around 2 PM yesterday.  

 In response to your 11:20 post, I applaud you for learning how to make citations, and even cite to them.  However, my criticism of your failure to back things up stems from your statement that Dan's post was a contortion.  In response you have supplied absolutely nothing to support the notion that any of the statements Dan attributes to Hagee are false, or even taken out of context.  Instead you go on and on about how he's a friend to Israel, as if that one virtue should excuse and negate all other sins. 

 Based on your later posts it seems you've given up on calling Dan K a lier and instead decided that nothing he said was really all that objectionable.   If that's your belief, fine.  I actually think you've done a decent job showing why Hagee's beliefs are not necessarily hateful, even if they are completely insane.  

--Z

Yes, Zionist, I accept that many people on this site are anti-Israel and pro-Arab.  I can still defend my words.

ZBird--I have complained loud and clear that what Dan has done is fully objectionable--he has called a mainstream religious leader who is respected a BIGOT and has said nothing to back up the assertion.  Now, he has set up another folder to say that his religion is odd.  The term bigot requires careful definition instead of raw contempt.  Calling someone a bigot when that term does not apply does not make that person a liar.  It merely means that he is hysterical for making a very negative characterization since he is not really lying about facts.  It is his burden to show how and why he is a bigot--and he made no attempt to do that and he fails to acknowledge his positive repute in the Jewish community at large.

Ismail, if Hagee does not like Islam and Muslims--he is entitled. It is bigotry if he offers up hatred or inspires others to act with violence against others.  Opposing the hatred posited by Islam is normal and justified. Hearing threats from Muslim leaders, acknowledging them, and stating that we should overcome such threats is called self-defense.

It is both wrong and a bit amusing to highlight his remark about hurricane Katrina.  Wrong since seeing a message from God in an act of God is classic and amusing since it was environmental mavens, led by the disgusting Al Gore, whose oddball theology led them to declare, with a straight-face that carbon emissions not only caused the hurricane but will SURELY cause even more violent hurricanes in the very near future.  The contrast here is overwhelming.  Hagee's comments--at the very worse might encourage those who agree with his perception to act with moral moral purpose.  Al Gore's oddball theology is not left on its own as a belief--it is followed by a mandate to change everyone's behavior in the bizarre contention that unless we give away billions of dollars, threats of more hurricanes will follow.  In effect, the Gore theology is to hold our pocketbooks hostage with the threats of pending doom and gloom.  This is scandalous and yet we give the moronic Al Gore a Nobel Prize and we give the mild-mannered Hagee the back of our hands and the suggestion he is a bigot seeking to destroy Israel when he has committed his entire adult life to supporting Israel and the Jewish people.

Dan is obviously an ideological warrior like others and his pet candidate, Obama, has deep associations with genuine bigots.  Understandably, he seeks to change the topic and he is trying to clear Obama of legitimate controversy by inventing controversy when there is no controversy.  This just means he has weak arguments.  

"The real enemies of the Jews are people like Obama and Ismail.  The later is a loser who nobody cares about but Obama is a real danger because he will try to destroy Israel if he gets elected President of the United States."

Hey, don't lump me in with Obama. The Senator from Illinois is barely distinguishable from the neocon savage Mrs. Clinton on the important structural issues (trade, healthcare, et al), and has performed his genuflections to AIPAC with devoutness equal to his opponent's.

As far as nobody caring about me, why did you spend your time concocting silly lies about me and then displaying your ignorance here for all to chuckle over?

You care about me! You really, really care about me!