Rabbis To Women: Work Those Ovaries!

I loved this article Tamar!! So much pressure!!! Don't let it get to you, there's no way you should have settled for any of those guys.  I can't stand when my Rabbi sarcastically tells me (all the time) "You should find someone soon, my wife started having kids at 19!" Well thats just way to early in the game for me...

It is SCANDALOUS that you had to "date" these four men to find out they weren't for you. Learn to tell who isn't for you, very fast, in a brief, daytime, conversation! Get a penetrating, analytic eye. Observe sharply and well. NEVER see anybody for the first time in the evening. NEVER see anybody in an environment that is more special than they are. In fact don't go out! Just get to know people. And don't tell me you need a little fun. THIS DOES NOT SOUND LIKE IT WAS FUN. Please don't do this again. In spite of Lilith's initiative to make men date women their age (exactly how are they going to enforce this?) you do NOT have pleeeeeenty of time. You are better off reading a book by yourself than seeing the wrong people. Figure out what you goals are, and let everybody know them. How oppressed does that rabbi's wife look, anyway? I bet she doesn't. YOU sound a little oppressed, my friend. You have been ripped off of your precious time. Men: stop taking women out. Just talk to them, and maybe have coffee or lunch. Men: figure out what your values are and ignore the "I gotta be free" women. Let them be free. Find someone who wants to get married, and take her, and only her, to a fabulous dinner. Then marry her.

Hell, with encouragement like that, Anon, I just ran out onto the lawn and began firing my Uzi in the air. One certainly wouldn't want to subject this issue to any rational thought or anything. And your advice to the men? Hey, old farts, start knocking up those 20 year olds 'cause they don't have pleeeeeeenty of time. OK, I am creeped out.

Help!  Help!  I'm being oppressed!

Oh no, oppression is a problem in the future, too? Say, FutureJew, do you know FutureMan, of Bela Fleck's ensemble? Could you get me an autograph before you're crushed by the weight of whatever it is that's oppressing you?

The gripe in this case seems to be that there are communal expectations.

I am quick to suggest that yes, it is fine that there are communal expectations and those expectations are on all Jews and not simply on Tamar's ovaries.  There are expectations to be married and stay married, to be financially stable, to give tzedakah, to have children, to daven, to know Torah, to love and support Israel, to be a pillar in society, to demonstrate good character--is any of this a problem or a controversy?

To internalize a communal expectation as laden with pressure and conflict is no poor reflection on the communal expectation itself any more than a school should be punished if a student feels overwhelmed or pressured to succeed academically.  This is a matter of personal responsibility.

We will all give tzedakah, support Israel,  stay married--etc. with the HELP of those communal expectations.  The belief that the expectations are driving people to crazed dimensions is a tad hysterical, to say the least.

David, the problem is not with communal expectations per se. The problem is that scare-mongering is used to make Jewish women feel "bullied into having kids." Oh, perdition, you don't have pleeeeenty of time, ladies. You had better start considering octogenarians, nay, centenarians!, or you'll be sorry. The solution is always having women drop their standards -so, he's psychotic 3 days out of the week- or we are threatened with a lonely old age where we'll have plenty of time to regret not accepting that psychotic guy. Nu, was he really so bad? Why is this onus only upon women? Why can't men ever question their sense of entitlement? Sorry, but my experience has been that most of the guys out there do not have what it takes to be partners, let alone fathers. 

I waited, and I'm glad I did. I am now married to a lamed vavnik, I kid you not!  

God almighty your husband is one lucky man!:-)

I love it when you call *me* hysterical.  I'd say it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, but in your case I think it's more like the pot calling the rocking chair a pot.  Anyway.

You wrote: "To internalize a communal expectation as laden with pressure and conflict is no poor reflection on the communal expectation itself any more than a school should be punished if a student feels overwhelmed or pressured to succeed academically.  This is a matter of personal responsibility."

Having children may be a communal expectation, but as I pointed out, the standard is explicitly verbalized to women all the time which makes it much more threatening and frustrating.  Look at the comment made in response to Elisheva's post earlier this week:

"If you ever want to have a baby, that is a whole other hurrier. Of course, lots of nice people have babies in their forties, very easily, and then sprint around after their ten-year olds in their yoga-supple fifties. Sure they do. No worries, mate. No worries at all."

 It's rude to tell a woman who's waiting to have a baby until she's ready that she's being selfish, and when you have people saying those exact words to you nearly every time you walk in the door of a shul it's not being hysterical to get incredibly frustrated and/or annoyed.  And the key word in personal responsibility is personal.  

Sure, I agree that it is rude to tell someone to do something before they are ready. I have enough imagination to understand that the pressure in this respect has a different impact on women than on men but only at the margins.  Further, I stand by my comment that such communal expectations are the rule concerning a host of other issues and these expectations are largely desirable.

Avigail, the onus is upon both men and women.  Curiously, I also hear complaints that there are not enough Jewish women out there for the men anxious to find the right person. No one bullies me and almost all the Jewish women I have encountered are so strong--I don't think they can be bullied either.

All I can say is that if someone is rude or threatening--the strong Jewish woman I know so well is quick to stand up for herself.  Perhaps this is something women feel from other married women and something which is internalized as "bad vibes."  Women need to keep their standards high and it is their job to reject men of dubious quality.  You found yours, Avigail--at a young age--you see.  So what is the beef?

"Have babies or else!!"  "I am being threatened!!"  Yes, this is hysteria. 

Tamar,

I agreed with everything you said here but I don't see why you had to insult your last four dates at the very end.  Granted, you didn't spell out their names, but if they ever come across this blog they'll know who they are, and presumably someone else in your social circle (or theirs) can also identify them.  I realize you're trying to make a point that you have good reasons for not getting impregnated with the first man you meet, but it seems you could have done it without engaging in le-shon harah.

--Z

"Curiously, I also hear complaints that there are not enough Jewish women out there for the men anxious to find the right person," says David. I, too, hear men say this at the same time as they are dissecting the last date and talking about trading up. There is never a point at which they are willing to settle, because, who knows, a beautiful Ph.D with money and big boobs could put her ad on JDate tomorrow. This is not hysteria, this is the way it is for most women, who are asked to make many more concessions, especially when it comes to childbirth. Maybe few women are susceptible to the bullying and scare-mongering (but ye of the Y chromosome, how would you know?); Tamar is writing about her experience as a Jewish woman. All she needs is a man to tell her that her own experience isn't valid. I, as another Jewish woman, can certainly relate.

Pleeeenty huuuuuge laugh: saying that an Israeli man is obnoxious is le'shon hara! 

if men just learned how to bake fresh bread before they reach twenty.  So, by their early twenties, they have good baking skills and make really great bread.  Guys, I kid you not, this is an important dating skill.

 

has a whole helluva lot more to do with the fact that his own four children failed to meet his stringent breeding expectations in a timely-enough fashion.  as the years passed and he wasn't yet a grandad (he is now, several times over, thank heavens; maybe he'll finally refocus some of his energy onto simply shutting the fuck up and enjoying his progeny's progeny), his directives to jewish women grew ever more intense, obnoxious, oppressive, and inappropriate.  the personal is political, indeed.

I NEVER said young women should settle for old geezers. Maybe the geezers are the only ones who can afford children. Too bad. No geezers. But the young women should not be fluff for the young men! The young women should stay home at night. They should be available for lunch only. "Evenings are for family. You want me in the evening, become family. Am I material for that? If not, then WHY are you asking for my evening? Hmmmm? Excuuuuse meee?" (And no man-hating covens with the girlfriends, either. That is not for grown-ups.) Read a book. Alone. Learn to be alone. Then, dislike being alone, and start a home. You should go into a restaurant only twice a year at the most, and a bar, never, unless with your fiancé. Bars are for twits.

Know what you want and get it. Mainly by not wasting time on anything else. Focus.These days, you have to fight like a tiger for your rights. You have a right to a nice husband and at least one child. Know that. Don't allow yourself to be distracted by the nonsense.

Anon, I'm not asking to see you in the evening. Me? Noooooo. Hmm-mm-mm-mm (like the Crash Test Dummies, do ya?). Besides, that's when the man-hating coven meets. Perhaps you did not say that women should date old geezers directly, but you did say this: "In spite of Lilith's initiative to make men date women their age (exactly
how are they going to enforce this?) you do NOT have pleeeeeenty of
time." How nice! I can see your eyes rolling at Lilith's admonition all the way through the intertubes. As I said, women are making the concession. You did not advise men to date outside of their age range  (usually up to 20 years younger, or at least 10, if he's in his thirties. They almost never go for 10 years older, though). Again, the problem is not that women do not want marriage or motherhood but that men, with their pornified imaginations, do not want it and lack the maturity to be good partners. But, I forget, we hysterical school-girls just can't understand our own experience without your direction, Anon.

 Actually, Naftali has it right. Be sure that what you have to offer is equivalent to your expectations. Be reasonable, be fair. Dispense with the thought that no matter how stupid, ugly or inhumane you may be, you deserve a goddess.

Thanks for extrapolating, but I meant it literally. 

You have no idea how crazy guys are when thinking about women.  When I was younger, fed all of this nonsense from television and the movies, watching the mating rituals in high school and college, we have no idea what we have to do--other than being Tom Brady (pardon, Texas--Tony Romo), a rock star, or an international spy.  I never would have dreamed, back then, that baking fresh bread has a more powerful effect than even the coolest Astin-Martin.

I have no idea how these guys Tamar dated acted in real life.  I do know how they act on a date.  The two behaviors aren't necessarily related.  What Tamar actually found out was the particular type of lunacy that overcomes these guys when they are with women.

It's sad really.  Yet the cure is so simple. 

OK, men, get to baking! Bread is great, but a chocolate torte? That'll take you all the way to the chuppah. 

I DO advise everybody, BOTH men and women, to consider people nine years older OR younger than themselves. Just not more than nine years. But that makes an 18-year age band, with you in the middle of it.

 (I was mocking Lilith's highly self- empowered idea that they can tell men what do, whom to like, or whom to call! That's really funny. How, with guns? But we are against guns, right? With what? Social stigmatization? But we don's like being judgmeeeeeental, right? So how? By tisk-tisking? With whips? What a joke. Men do what they want. It's a free country. Very, very free, in some neighborhoods. Are you going to force their hands to the telephone? So we have to do what WE want. We have to say NO. We have to stay home and read a book.)

I also advise women to avoid the players by keeping it to lunch.

You cannot make other people family-oriented. All you can do is be family-oriented yourself, by keeping it to lunch. Evening is family time. You are right, I sound like an old-fashioned father. Well, papa weeded out the idiots, or tried. And he had been a young dude himself, so he could read their eyes in a micro-second.

A young woman has a dog in the fight. It is very hard for her to be objective, for that reason alone. That doesn't make her a hysterical school-girl. That's just the logic of her position. Someone who has nothing to gain or lose can see more coolly and clearly. That is true in any situation! Maybe we need a new figure: The Eliezar, or spouse-seeker, like in the Rebecca - Isaac story. The dating coach, or papa figure, both 1) a seeker for you, and a  2) a gate-keeper the Lotharios have to get past. A protector. That doesn't make you stupid. In exchange, you can give him stock tips or legal advice.

"
I DO advise everybody, BOTH men and women, to consider people nine years older OR younger than themselves. "

I hope the people you advise are at least 27 years old (26 in some states), or you might have legal trouble. 

 

--Z

Yes, Z-bird, common sense has to be applied. Cute.

I can't reply to all this! The sun is a' settin.

I have a confession to make. I misrepresented myself on this website. Actually, Avigail is a committee of 4, all of whom participated in writing under this pseudonym. None of the information posted in the profile is true, especially not the beautiful young woman we selected to represent us (we are male). Even though we took her image from a defunct website - the kind of thing we do - she discovered it and asked us not to misrepresent ourselves. What could we say? We work in Israeli media relations and were looking at the effect of certain messages delivered by a stereotypically "exotic" Israeli, among other things. We thought this site would lend itself to our inquiries. We also look at the effects that support for gay policies has on Israel's reputation, so, of course, "Avigail" had to comment in the gay-themed thread as well. We were caught red-handed, so we will have to try this elsewhere, in another way. And for those who say, "Oh I knew it all along'' no, you didn't.

So you living in San Antonio is BS I guess.lol

Your post made me laugh, and then nod and sigh. I haven't gotten the baby push quite so much yet, but I have definitely seen the difference in pushing men and women to marry and have kids. I mean, why is ok for "eligible Jewish boys" to go off and sow their oats well into their 30's? Why isn't there a push for them to marry as much as there is for us? And then who do we marry? Most of the Jewish men I know seem to be doing a good job of trying to relive their college party days, and screw their way through the female population (Jewish and shiksa alike). So do we wait until they're done playing around and risk not being able to have kids? Or do we look outside of the community?

So, instead of believing that Avigail is an Israeli young woman, married and living in Texas, I should believe she is the creation of four especially clever Israeli media consultants who are clever enough to lift a picture from a website that can no longer be found, and yet so unclever as to pick a picture of a girl they obviously know, since as soon as she sees the picture she knows exactly who to talk to tell them to remove her image.

Not only that, but these four Israeli media consultants are so brilliant that they've decided to sample a population for study, of which they have no idea of knowing exactly who they are studying--because if they could lie about their identity, all of us could be doing the same thing.

Not only that, but these genius Israeli consultants are feeding us stereotypical Israeli cliches, which will only work for people who have spent lots of time in Israel, to even know what the stereotype can possibly be.

And somehow this is all tied to gay issues.

Yep, makes perfect sense.

Or, the plucky Texan just found another picture too good to pass on. Being plucky and all.

I can agree that women have a bit more pressure and a bit more of a burden but this does not mean men are free and without similar pressure.

To some extent, women have contributed to their own problem in this regard. Modern feminism has downgraded the standing of women and harmed their power in a dating scenario.  Now, women are here to complain that men seem to have more options and more power when women have been complicit in ceding control.

Women have more skill in navigating relationships and an elevated ability to gauge prospective husbands.  I never dated a woman who was a loser and Avigail--- I never said that Tamar's experience is not valid. However, if you want to ask me, I will say that if some woman is chronically picking less than desirable men, she might want to look at her thinking when choosing her prospects.

There are plenty of great young Jewish men out there to find and the suggestion that men are some how defective is not fair-minded and there is no reason to look outside the community to find a good man. 

My father proposed marriage to my mother on the first date and this was not uncommon in a previous day and age. Today, it is not uncommon for women to endure a protracted dating scene and today's standards regarding dress and sexual behavior have greatly harmed women's interests.  Instead of defending hanky-panky, women would do far better to take control of their sexuality, defend more modest conduct and take the lead in bringing men to pay up or shut up. This will make a stronger market for husbands instead of boys.

I have dated some great guys.  I have been proposed to twice (once, he even had a ring).  But so far I haven't met a guy who I could picture loving for the rest of my life.  I want to make sure the guy I marry is the right guy for me, and I don't apologize for shopping around and being choosy.  The guys I dated in the past year are all upstanding citizens that are not right for me.  I wish them the best, and I am nearly positive that none of them read this blog.  If they do, and they recognized themselves, something tells me they'll survive.  There are undoubtedly hundreds of guys who could fall under each category, so I don't think I was unfairly specific, but of course Zbird is entitled to his opinion.

I put exactly zero stock in David's assertion that "There are plenty of great young Jewish men out there to find and the suggestion that men are some how defective is not fair-minded and there is no reason to look outside the community to find a good man."  When he moves to the UWS and starts dating twenty something observant men, he can give me his two cents.  Until then, he's talking out of his ass, as per usual.  (David's tendency to make claims that are impossible to back up is legendary.  When you question him about it he says, "it's obvious" which is, you know, an AMAZING defense in, say, fourth grade.)

as someone who has two wonderful children, and has been pressured by family, friends, and 'the community' to have more, i can fully say that this is a personal choice, truly life altering, and shouldn't be imposed by anyone on anyone else.  when people are dating, they are pressured to get married, when married, have children, have children, have more children, etc.

personal choices should remain that.  i dont decide what major life altering decisions other people should make, and dont want them making any decisions for me. saying women should just get married and have children belittles marriage, children, and women - all at once.

Tamar, why can't I judge? I have a son and I am in the community.  I see dozens of available young men on a regular basis and I have seen them up close--they are great guys.

It is a bit of a joke that you can with one broad brush demean an entire segment of the community with such total chutzpah, having met so few, to claim that something is obviously true and then accuse me of saying "obviously."  Huh?

I have met great young men all over this country and I repeat, perhaps you are looking in the wrong places, perhaps you have unreliable antennae--I do not know you well enough to speculate.  What is clear is that to suggest young Jewish men are across the board defective is an unfair generalization.

One suggestion: I met the most incredible young Jewish couple the other day.  Even though both are "model" people great looks, excellent character, yiddishchiet, etc.  I asked how they found each other since I know this is difficult for men and women alike.  She told me they employed a matchmaker out of New Jersey who takes only Orthodox.  Both were told not to date anyone and wait for her phone call.  They waited a few months and then were asked to meet each other.

 It was perfect. 

"What is clear is that to suggest young Jewish men are across the board defective is an unfair generalization."

Yet, somehow, one happy couple from a matchmaker is enough for you to generalize.

I once had a goal that before I turned 25, I'd be married and contently changing the diaper of my first child, but life has its own plans. The 23rd through 25th years of my life will have been torn apart by wars and deployments and the sickness and death of many of my friends and family. Though I may have numerious worries and concerns in my life - not meeting that original goal is not one of them. To me I'm just following in the path of my mother, who refused to listen to the community and "settle" with whoever was interested in her and waitted on her perfect match. She had her first child, me, at 31 and the rest of my 9 brothers and sisters followed. I honestly don't know how my parents have stayed together for 25 years, to me they seem the type of people who would constantly get on each others nerves, but to them it's perfect.

 One person's perfect life is another person's living hell.

 On a seperate note: I always feel a bit of guilt and annoyance, with the pressure my local commuity puts on my sister. I remember before she met her current boyfriend, comments were made, either to her face or just within earshot, that she should "find a man and settle" or "why can't she be less picky like her sister" (to whom belongs my little nephew). Now that she has a boyfriend, she is constantly baggered or "nudged" about how her current boyfriend would be a "fine catch", how she should "grab hold of him before someone else does", and the like. While, to date, I have never heard a word about when I am going to settle down, though I proably need more of a kick in the rear to start looking harder. It's not that I have a hard time meeting women, current situation not withstanding, but that it's never been a big issue for me - I'll get married when I meet the right women and that will happen when it happens. Don't know if that's the typical jewish male attitude or not, but it's mine.

Would you get offended if a rabbi suggested you keep Shabbos, kashrut or any of Judaism's hundred of other laws or is it simply the mitzva (only incumbent upon men) to reproduce that offends you?

If you want to belong to any community, there are going to be expectations for your behavior. Certain behaviors will be encouraged and others discouraged, whether you have joined a gay Reform temple or a stamp club.

What you're complaining about is called reality.

Is that the Luke Ford? Matt Welch introduced us a few years ago, howzit?

Somewhere along the way the Jewess forgot what her mother's bubby knew. Women who wait too long end up alone and without issue;  living, breathing, genetic corpses fated to spend the final forty years of their lives as the dead branches of a family tree that extends back to the dawn of time.  Why?  Partly because of their bad taste in men, and partly because they are just too damn picky.  This idea that you, Tamar,  are special to the point that you need never "settle" is simply unrealistic.  Everyone except the extremely lucky few must settle in the market, whether looking to buy a house, accept a job, or to find a mate.  Somewhere along the line otherwise educated Jewish women (and others, but we are discussing Jewish women here) seem to have made everything so theoretical that they have forgotten the basics of life, and that includes the need to settle before it gets too late.  And it does get too late - men want to marry fertile women, which is to say young women, because young women are far more likely to bear healthy children using their own eggs and without heroic medical procedures than are older women pushing forty.  This preference is encoded into male genes, and no amount of hectoring by busy-bodies can change it.  The task of the YOUNG Jewish woman, then, is to use her charms to find an acceptable match while she still has charms to use.  And note I said "acceptable," not "perfect",not "soul-mate" material, and not even someone you might convince yourself you will want to be having sex with in twenty years.

And don't give me this "but I live on the Upper West Side" excuse.  I too, live in Manhattan, and if you can't find a mate here where there are so many choices, then there is something fundamentally wrong with you.  Smarten up, before it is too late, and it is later than you think. 

I think Mr. Gadol, that Tamar should not settle and be "realistic."  It is fine and good to have high expectations--Tamar is far to young to be told to settle by anyone.  The issue is not to fight over who is right over Tamar's romance--the issue here is whether or not communal expectations should exist. Luke Ford has weighed in and has the correct take on the matter. 

My points, missed by David Strauss, include the understanding that even young Jewish people with everything just right about them may have trouble finding what they consider an ideal match  and they might rely on introductions from others or even a matchmaker. The wisdom here is clear:  success is a model and not failure.  Kissing a lot of boys in the hopes of finding a prince is not a winning strategy.  This is why even the women on "Sex in the City" correctly questioned why the unmarried and chronically frustrated Carrie is an inappropriate model to give advice to marriage minded women. If single women would have a habit of asking successfully married women about their success, this would reduce some of the poor strategies which lead to slaps against men, instead of corrective strategies and personal responsibility by the women--and vica versa since the same applies for men who might do the same thing in their frustration. 

This is my basic complaint--the blog should lead with the story of success and allow women to learn from the experience.  Instead, this blog finds problems with so many things Jewish, now leads with the allegation that Rabbis are boxing the ears of young women.

Concerning Tamar's broadbrush against the quality of young Jewish men, this is patently unfair and concerning my observation that Dov is incorrect that halachic opinion is mixed when EVERY halachic authority agrees with a prohibition would be called a tautology--or, if you will, an *obvious* fact.

Our community offers help to young people in search of marriage partners. For example, speed dating is a concept which allows for many introductions for Jewish singles. The community is much more interested in excellent matches that last than pushing women or men into fast commitments.

can jewcy please please create a separate space for these lunatic dick-brains to gather?   like a TB ward, only for cum-back-up-induced idiocy?  reading some of these comments makes me think, after all, that maybe a mechitzah is the way to go.  hold out, women!  don't let these assholes pass on their genetic material! 

I've been working on a final solution for the lunatic dick-brains. Some place where they can just go and camp out until they're fit for the rest of the site again. If they work hard enough, that will set them free.

Learn to weigh your words. "Final solution". I would not call that appropriate but I guess you being Jewish you're entitled to a pass.:-)

A number of points in no particular order:

I don't live on the Upper West Side, I live in Nashville Tennessee, which is clear to anyone who bothers to read the three sentences that comprise my author bio.  

I have no trouble meeting nice Jewish men.  I haven't found one I want to marry yet, but I'm not worried.  I'm 23.  I'll worry in a decade.  If someone wants to worry for me, that's their business.  They can be in a club with my Bubbe. 

This blog is not obligated to be a rainbows and strawberry shortcake presentation of Judaism.  There are tough realities facing those who lead observant lives, one of them is finding a partner, and I refuse to gloss over anything to make anyone--especially David--feel any better.  Some people like matchmakers, some people like JDate and some people like meeting people at shul. 

I hate Sex and the City, and don't use it as a model for my own dating or relationships, nor do I advise others to kiss frogs in search of a prince.  

The problem with pressuring women to get married and have children is simply that one can never be sure what the real situation is.  What if a girl is infertile, or she and her partner are both carriers of Tay-Sachs?  What if a family is worried about affording a child, or another child?  Even making a comment to a woman who's married and has a child is rude.  Making comments to unmarried women about having babies soon has the presumably unwanted side effect of asserting that her uterus is more important than the rest of her, and that her ability to make babies is all that she's good for.  It encourages her to jump into relationships that may not be advisable, and it implicitly lowers her self-esteem. 

For the record, I'm not sure what you're getting at, Chevy. All I'm saying is Jewcy has undergone a lot of changes since November '06 when we launched. I'd say there's been roughly two major eras before this one.. And we want to do things correctly this time around. That's why we're establishing a third sort of "empire" in the office, where we're really closely examining both the good and bad attributes of our site and working to exterminate the negative ones and breeding only the positive traits for the future of our site.

The Five Year Rule states that a 23 year old woman's real reproductive age is 28, because 23 plus 5 is 28. It takes: 1 year to decide he is cool, 1 year to convince your mother you know him long enough, 1 year to reserve the right hotel or country club for the wedding, 1 year to see how you both adust to actually being married and to decide it is going to last, and 1 year to physically bear a baby. If you met him tonight, Tamar, you would be cuddling his baby  -  -   at age 28. You might as well be an informed consumer. Here is some more good news:    http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/107183.html

Somebody ought to go on record that having babies is not like "eat your spinach"! It is wonderful, the most fun ever, the most intellectually challenging thing ever, the most interesting thing ever. Watching people develop, who are not just clients or students, but your own, is the best thing. It is huge fun. It is worth anything it costs. For both women and men! I have done it, and I know. It means just as much to men, too! You lot have no idea what you have been cheated out of, because your parents, and especially grandparents, are not helping you enough, because they have, er, no brains. And, because they like having a good time themselves. Awful. Confront them. Hard.

"the most intellectually challenging thing ever"

Judging from many of the people having babies, I'm lead to believe that it's not exactly astrophysics.

Ordinary people can certainly do this. But you do have to do a lot of thinking, often very fast. You are making decisions all the time. The better you make them, the better it all turns out, and you know that, and you know you are going to eat the results. So, you reach down deep into your beliefs and feelings, all the time, to do what look like little things, but which matter, and which add up. You are NEVER in charge of so much, again. It is a JOY to see it all work out fine. I couldn't begin to tell you how wonderful it is to do something that really matters, for once. Does your job really matter? I mean, cosmically? Sure it matters some, but like this? It's nice to do your very best on something that absolutely counts. When you are finished, you have people. What will you have, when you are finished?

You know why people keep copies of their resumes and CV's? Because they couldn't remember their jobs accurately, if they were not written down. It's all a blur. Children - that is yours. Now, if the hard-hearted grandparents and parents of today's young people said, "You will not lack for money. I will live modestly so you can have what we had, in the properous post-World War II years. Hell. I will actually bestir myself to even do a little laundry, and baby-sitting! Do you think the UJC will give me a dinner for that? They ought to. Darn. I thought I was THROUGH with all that garbage, after I stopped taking care of YOU. I didn't mean that the way it sounds! It's just that ... oh stop crying. Why do you want these burdens? Don't you know it's more fun to travel and play mah-jong? Blow your nose. Gloria and Betty said babies were icky. Do you know what I missed, doing the family thing, with your boneheaded father, and your stupid braces and prom dresses? I didn't mean it like that. Look, I LIKE having money. Find a doctor. Your father and I had it tough, at first. Of course, the streets and schools were safe, then. The subway cost a few cents, and so did gas. Don't you hang up on me!"