Palestine's Mandela?

The lack of any treatment of Barghouti's crimes in this article is a total joke. The author makes it seem somehow that he is rotting in an Israeli prison thanks to some unpaid parking tickets or as a result of political campaigning rather than, say, directly ordering and organizing the murder of civilians (amongst groups like Tanzim and Al Aqsa who even the US recognizes as terror orgs). Why should we shoot for Barghouti when we could hope for Sari Nusseibeh (or someone otherwise just as practical)?  

By the by, should we really be looking towards South Africa as a model of a successful, functioning state?

Adam-

You really need to go a little beyond MEMRI or similar sources before you pronounce so assuredly about an issue you apparently know little about.

Here are some elementary difficulties with your position:

1. Barghouti was abducted from an occupied area by the occupying force, then transferred for trial to the occupying country. These are contraventions of the both the Geneva Accords and the Oslo Accords.

2. In his preliminary appearance before the court, Barghouti argued that, by virtue of the facts cited in (1), above, the court had no jurisdiction to try him. He further declared that, while not a pacifist, he hoped for peace between both peoples. In response, the presiding judge accused him of orchestrating the killing of children, this before a single witness had been heard from. By their silence, neither of her colleagues deemed this the obvious travesty of judicial dispassion that it clearly was. How'd you like to tried before such an "impartial" court?

3. The trial itself was as stage-managed as the worst Stalinist outrages in the Soviet Union. The government permitted only a small group of journalists from friendly news organizations into the courtroom, along with a diplomat or two and a Knesset member. No civilians save members of a group called "Organization of Terror Victims" were allowed. This is an extreme right-wing, Kach-associated group which was happy to perform their assigned role, shouting at the defendant and unfurling their photos, banners etc on cue.

Adam, if this farce had occurred in any country but Israel, you'd rightly write it off as a travesty of fairness or justice.

Numerous elements in Israeli society, including many, like Shimon Peres, who are to the right of Avnery, realize that Barghouti is a valuable partner in the peace process. Once again, though, we see American Zionists outflanking Israelis themselves in demonizing Palestinian resisters. 

What's Hebrew for, "More Catholic than the Pope"? 

Ha! Hmm, I don't know the Hebrew word for Catholic or Pope...oddly enough.

Here is my point, dear Ismail...(well a couple of points):

Firstly, and most importantly is that the author did NOT present any context around Barghouti. I actually do agree in some ways that he could be an important figure to bridge gaps. All that I was saying is that the article really skirts over Barghouti's role in Tanzim and Al-Aqsa...no? And as such the story does get a little more complicated. Or further could he really be pulled into the political fold? I think this is a totally legitimate question.

Further, there is the question of bringing guerillas into the political fold...something that most Israelis (this is NOT an American Zionist canard) are highly distrustful of at this point given the utter failings of dealing with Arafat and Fatah for years.

There are points of importance in the article above. And the legality of Barghouti's arrest is another issue (though I will say that he was also found not guilty on 20-some odd charges...not very Stalinist in my estimation)--I was commenting specifically on the idea of propping him up as an effective potential leader. I have my doubts and my questions; none of which are absolute.  But these questions are something that the author does not even touch on.

Don't you have anything better to do than to attack Israel and Jews?  I know your wife likes it because at least you won't beat her while you're on the computer.  Get a life loser!

Palestine and Palestinians have never existed.  It's a fraud created by the Plo.  The Fakestinians are nothing but terrorists created by the Arab Islamicfacists to kill Jews and destroy Israel.  Ury Avner is a wretched self-hating anti-semitic pig.  Would make a good boyfriend to fellow Jew-hater Ismail.  It's no surprise that "phony Jews-cy" would publish this cretin's article.

Love your screen name, by the way.

I too would support denouncing any terrorist pig Ismails, lest they be confused with me, well-known for my humanism, my succinct, logically impeccable posts and my thoroughly non-porcine nature.

"The Arab terrorist pig is obsessed with the Jews" 

Speaking of obsessions, what's with your fixation with me and my wife? Can your pre-occupation with our relationship be a displacement of some homoerotic inclinations? (not that there's anything wrong with that). Perhaps a disguised shiksa infatuation? Come on, I know you guys are all crazy about our women. 'Fess up. 

Haven't gotten the final word from the Craigs-that-be re the acceptability of referring to you a "cum-soaked cockholster", so, pending his ruling, I'll just ask how you came to be such a massive shitstain.

See, I'm actually quite well-thought out and reasoned in comparison, no?

This may be cold comfort, Adam, but I am happy to go on record in affirming that your opinions are infinitely more well-thought out and reasonable than those of our unhinged friend up there.

That said, they're wronger than tits on a rooster. But definitely more coherent than those of Mr. Cockholster....sorry, I mean Shitstain.

You realize, of course, that by engaging in this banter with me, you are as we speak being drummed out of Judaism's elect by Mr. Shitstain, the final arbiter of who's a good Jew and who's a kapo.

Not to worry, though. I'm sure the Unitarians will have you. 

haha, well that's comforting at least. There's a Unitarian church right next store to my apartment. Would be a lot easier than the half mile walk to shul. Though with the beard, structured prayer times and vegetarianism, I think that Islam would probably be an easier transition. Oh wait...the booze thing. Scratch that. I would be hard pressed to give up gin, even if it meant a one way ticket to the afterlife.

The poor sub-human crybaby is acting like a 5-year old child who just got his ass kicked.  Name-calling like an immature low-class piece of crap that you are.  You're a piece of trash that advocates the murder of Jews.  There's nothing human about you.  You're a sick mother******. Your kid should be taken away because you sound like an abuser of every kind and who knows what you do to her.

You are so obssessed with the Jews that you obviously masturbate while reading Jewish websites.  (This phony one doesn't count.)  I guess if I had a wife as disgusting as yours I would do anything to get off.  Poor thing!

I don't care about shiksa women, especially your ugly fat wife.  Jewish women are the most beautiful and smartest women around. 

Get lost you Arab-terrorist barbaric pig!

Maybe it's good to know what the enemy thinks.  He choses to invest lots of time at Jewcy with his glib, self satisfied, redundant comments, and readily reveals his hatred behind the thin veil of what's become acceptable Euro-leftist Jew hating discourse.  He'd rather invest his time here than at sites where his views would be answered by cheers because there are smart people here, and he fancies himself intelligent.  I'd love to know what kind of job allows one to spend such web trolling time... It's weird.  I do appreciate your effort though, it's right on. 

Hasn't Jewcy previously deleted posts from rabid antisemites, Neonazis, and the like?  Because I'm all for passionate debates, even if they get mean and personal, but "Arab-terrorist barbaric pig" is beyond the pale of any acceptable discourse.  Ismail seems man enough to brush this off with characteristic sarcasm, but it makes Jewcy look bad to keep this nastiness online.  

--Z

Just out of curiosity, why do they refer to it as "Hamastan"?

I imagine an American would get it, but I doubt an Arab would make heads or tales of it.

I'm an ethnic Jew but religiously Muslim. I'm passionately for Israel, and I'm equally passionate for justice for the Palestinians (and yes, they do exist, have done so for as long as the Israelites). The problem is, can I make use of this Jewcy site? Or had I better "piss off self-hating Jewish Muslim pig" (apparent dichotomy)?

Thanks, Z, for your comment. I too wonder about the wisdom of keeping the loathesome effusions of salivating non-entities like our friend up there on the site, but my commitment to open discourse keeps me from taking the first step on the slippery slope of banishment of unpopular ideas (and I know that in his case, referring to his subcortical eruptions as "ideas" is a stretch.)

Anyway, it's nice to hear from an ideological opposite who endorses the notion of spirited debate and who can separate significant and principled disagreement from the sort of baboonish thuggery we witness above.  

Exhibit 1:

"He'd rather invest his time here than at sites where his views would be answered by cheers because there are smart people here..."

Exhibit 2:

"You are so obssessed with the Jews that you obviously masturbate while reading Jewish websites. (This phony one doesn't count.) I guess if I had a wife as disgusting as yours I would do anything to get off. Poor thing!"

Case closed.

Ismail, what would it take to get you, and other regular, thoughtful commenters without accounts, to register, so that I might possibly prevail in persuading Jewcy to stop allowing anonymous comments? I don't want to post to a site where reasonably intelligent discussion like that which started this thread gets subverted into the crap that the troll(s) have pulled it into (which is exactly their aim). There's enough intelligent commentary going on here that I'd like to continue to participate, but I'm not interested in speaking to or among lowlifes who try to refute arguments with insults, and then call their interlocutor a namecaller. I know I'm not alone in that.

Anonymous, you've been trolling the site for too long now and, regrettably, we haven't given you any official warning. This is it: tone down your language or tone up your comprehensibility.

The next time you waste everyone's time with a drivel-post where you call someone an anti-semite or make personal insults while offering nothing of substance, you will be banned from the site, and banned again, until you stop coming back. 

which Anonymous are you talking to?

I suspect he means the delightfully concrete "ban the terrorist pig ismail", who I suspect is also "anti-skanks", among other noms de derangement.

I wonder who the poor bastard really is. Could it be that Michael Weiss has spent too much time shmoozing with Phyllis Chesler over at Pajamas Media and has finally snapped?

By the way, Craig, that's some warning. I vote that your picture be added to the "Tough Jews" slideshow. 

The smart money is that Ismail is actually famous web troll Hashfanatic, a New York/New Jersey area unemployed nobody who trolls for a living, as it were.

"The smart money is that Ismail is actually famous web troll Hashfanatic, a New York/New Jersey area unemployed nobody who trolls for a living, as it were."

Well, BigE, that makes you bereft of either smarts or money. Not Mr. Fanatic, not famous, not in NY/NJ area, and I make a nice living.

Galling, isn't it?

Funny how my presumed employment status has become a fetish among my detractors here. I wonder about this. How has unemployment become the new leprosy? Do you know anyone who's become jobless? Do you suppose that they're in that fix due to some moral failing?

I'm certainly not wealthy by the standards of my community, but our family income is still higher than that of most Americans. About 1/3 of American families make do on less than 30K a year. Lots of these folks are unemployed/massively underemployed due to the structural peculiarities of our economic system.

I have a hard time with the sneeringly heartless side of the religion of meritocracy that so many profess these days, in which "unemployed" functions like "adulterer" did several decades ago.

So, money and meaningful work are, thanks to my parents' struggles, my own hard work and no small amount of luck, the least of my worries. Looks like you'll actually have to muster up a compelling argument against my positions rather than making up comforting illusions about who I am.

I'd hate to be in your shoes. 

Uvnery seems to be drawn to people who kill Jews. Perhaps it is the Stockholm syndrome, but Uvnery was one of the few people who attended Arafat's funeral and was genuinely sorry about his passing. Undoubtedly, he is also saddened by the death of Imad Mugniyeh, who blew up Jewish institutions in Buenos Aires. Mandela doesnt have the violent record that Barghouti has. Also, unlike the situation in South Africa, the creation of Palestine must be preceded by the elimination of Israel. The definition of the Palestinian people is a nation resolutely committed to the elimination of the Jewish state (and elimination of Jews from Palestine). This is why no Palestinian leader can make peace-it requires sacrificing Palestinian identity.