Newspapers quote people out of context. Not all Orthodox men have the specific fantasy of getting nubile young virgins to give up their professional goals...as a matter of fact, my wife spent the first year of our marriage finishing her college degree. (Slightly different, because Australian college culture is not like America's, but my point holds, I think.)

It is a little bit of hell resolving the college social scene with a married social scene. But it's one of those eye-rolling assumptions that secular people have about Orthodox people that ranks up there with blood libel and horns. Hey -- in the really strict Hasidic communities, women go to college and get jobs so they can support their husbands studying in yeshiva all day....still sexist, but in a direction you'd never expect.

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Of course, getting married is a huge step and a lifetime commitment--but it wouldn't change a college student's day-to-day life all that much, or get in the way of graduating/having a career.  Now, a baby is a whole other issue though.  

I'm not as concerned as you are about the career vs. family issues you bring up--it's simply a fact of modern life that people (ok, mostly women) have to balance their careers against their desire to have children.  I don't think that necessarily gets any easier at 30 or 35 vs. 20.  

I am interested in the fact that these women are at Columbia, though (as opposed to state school).  Unless they're all on scholarship, they're probably graduating with $100K+ in debt, and being a mom won't help them pay down those loans.   

--Z

As a Barnard grad I have to point out another group that doesn't come across too well in the article -- Barnard students. The piece gives the impression that the Orthodox students are all on the prowl for husbands, putting marriage and family over career and education. The religious women I went to school with are all smart, studious, driven people, who are finding the balance that many women struggle to achieve between family and career, albeit at an earlier age than most. For that, I have to give them credit.

"Does extra money for vacation really intimidate people that much? Or savings to pay for day school? Or a nicer apartment?"

So you're saying that these things are more important than a parent spending time with their children, then?  Well, I don't think so.

I do agree that we have "seriously fucked up our priorities somewhere",  though.

"Definitely Not Good For the Jews"

Was it Jews who invented it?

Good for the Jews, not Godd for the Jews?

Says who?  Which Jews are you talking about?

How do you know if something is good or bad for all Jews?

Sure we can all agree that anyone who wants to kill all Jews  or put them in ghettoes  is bad for them, but other than that I am not sure anyone can be sure what is and is not bad for Jews.

So, enough with it's good/bad for the Jews.  

Matthue--

Of course I know that that's not what all Orthodox men want or are looking for.  I'm sure it was taken out of context to an extent (thus, not good for the Jews), but I grew up in the frum community and I know that it is, to a large extent, true.  

I'm absolutely not saying that it would be better to have a nice apartment than to spend time with your kids.  If someone wants to stay at home instead of work, I think that's fine.  These women got into one of the most highly competitive universities in the US, and I think most of them went there thinking they would use their training to get a job once they graduated.  If they changed their minds, it's fine.  I just don't want girls being sent the message that it's more important to get married and move to the Heights than to have a career.  That should be a choice a girl makes based on what she really wants.

"That should be a choice a girl makes based on what she really wants."

But do we ever know what we really want.

Desire is not an absolute, Tamar.

Both sides of the issue argue as if it were an absolute.

I don't understand why people can't get married during college and still have their careers.  Where's the conflict?  Getting married doesn't take up all that much time.  Many, many people marry during some part of their education (often graduate school) and nobody thinks twice about it.  Why should getting married during college be so different?  To the extent the concern is missing out on "dorm life," I don't buy it.  Lots of people, including commuters, many state school students, and others opt out of dorm life because it's too intense, too expensive, or because living in such close quarters with people who are all their age just weirds them out.  While I enjoyed dorm life, I respect people who have other things to do with their time and money.  Married people can still get an education (I know; I was married for most of law school, and I learned plenty).

 What does change the picture is having children, because babies take up a lot of time.  But, as another commenter noted, this is true whether the parents are in college, high school, graduate school, or working.  I had my first baby while I was about to start a clerkship and my husband was doing his phd -- maybe it slowed us down a little, but that's life if you want to have kids.  Again, I don't see why this is a problem.  Perhaps someone who has a baby during college will take extra semesters to graduate, or even additional years.  I don't see that as a tragedy, particularly where both parents share the burden.

In short, I don't see why this article generated so much anger and concern.  Arguably it's better to get baby-having "out of the way" early in one's eductation, so that you're not derailed or taken off-guard by the time-consuming nature of childraising in your mid-30's as many of my Jewish friends are when they have children. 

Hey Tamar,

I'm totally with you -- but I think that a lot of people, especially in this enlightened modern age, tend to give themselves a lot of credit, and to give other people in other cultures not very much credit at all. When, idealistically, we're living in a very anti-colonialist era, it's ironic that our morality is still very colonialist. Which sometimes (preventing ethnic cleansing) seems pretty OK by me, and sometimes (telling pretty smart and with-it women that a college education needs to be completed before starting a family....and, hey, telling them in the first place that having a paying, outside-the-house job makes you a better person) is not. 

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Candy in Action
a novel by Matthue Roth
supermodels. kung fu. and a free mp3 soundtrack....

Multiculturalism is based on the lie that all
cultures are morally equal. In practice, that soon degenerates to: All
cultures are morally equal, except ours, which is worse. But all
cultures are not equal in respecting representative government,
guaranteed liberties and the rule of law. And those things arose not
simultaneously and in all cultures, but in certain specific times and
places – mostly in Britain and America, but also in various parts of
Europe.

In America, as in Britain, multiculturalism has
become the fashion in large segments of our society. So the Founding
Fathers are presented only as slaveholders, World War II is limited to
the internment of Japanese-Americans and the bombing of Hiroshima.
Slavery is identified with America, though it has existed in every
society and was pioneered in Africa by arab slave traders for hundreds of years before the West became involved. Also, the antislavery movement arose first among English-speaking
evangelical Christians, never among islamic arabs who controlled the slave-trade for centuries.