I think what Jewcy needs is more Tod Goldberg -- the guy's comments are as funny as his articles.

Maybe I just don't get your humor, Tod. It's more mean and verbose than funny "ha ha". I don't think your article fulfilled your thesis...I didn't find out if the stories are any good, I only "learned" that the authors use incorrect diction and bad syntax. I mean what is the reason for your story...why did it need to be written? You're just making a really obvious point that doesn't need to be discussed. Maybe I'm doing the same thing now.

PS: You wrote "hear" instead of "here" in your response. Can I get a front page story if I write 600 words about it?

Here's what we'll do, Mike. You tell me the stories that need to be written and then I'll write those. Right now I'm actually working on a new piece for Jewcy called Finding The Ha-Ha: Five Things We Think Mike Might Find Funny, which I think has a lot of potential to be a searing and emotional look inside the dark world of your personal ha-ha experiences. I've got diagrams for pratfalls and spit takes, interviews with your kindergarten classmates, a touching video montage of you watching the "Jammin on the One" episode of The Cosby Show and a quiet moment of reflection when you think about the times you laughed at others' misfortune. Look for it next week.

Who are you mike? You are hilars and i dig you big time

Who are you mike? You are hilars and i dig you big time

Tod, I happen to agree with most of things you say. The problem is, you're a humor writer, and you're not funny. You should work on that.

thank you anon, for saying what we're all thinking...and so succinctly! Tod, the way you latched on to my small critique shows that your nasty comments are pleas for attention. Adios.

I posted the below as a comment to the blog entry, but since this is where the discussion is, I thought I'd post it here too. If this is not allowed, I do apologise. I'm leaving it as originally posted too, so sorr Tod for calling you Todd ;) Have fun picking out my grammar errors too! :) Cause I know how much you love them ;)

Well, as the author of this story I was shocked. Not really by the comments made, but because someone outside of the HP fandom read my story, or a chapter of it. Am I bad at Grammar, spelling and the rest of it..Yes! This is something I know and something that I don't really care about either.

However, I can see the point in the criticism. MANY talented writers use fan fiction as a way to improve their skills and hopefully write original fiction and then perhaps get published. For me? I love Harry Potter and I love to write fan fiction. Although I have many faults, I'm not in this to gain anything or expect anything. I have ideas in my head about the characters I love and write about them. I've had worse reviews than this, so I suppose in a way, I should be thankful that I'm not someone who would take these comments to heart.

"Trust that your reader has had passionate sex before and thus knows how it feels and then write it so it's titillating vs. purple."

Now that made me laugh! Being this story is my first attempt ever at fan fiction, I didn't think about anything first and just wrote what was in my head. The site that my story is posted on has strict rules to follow and while they try and make sure warnings are in place to warn readers about what content they are about to read, how can you really safe guard everything online against younger readers? My point is, Harry Potter is loved by the young and old. I can't trust that my readers have had passionate sex before, as most probably haven't. With that said, could my entire sex scene be written better and more tastefully? Of course it could be! In fact, as Todd pointed out from just one chapter, the whole 32 chapters of my story could be better.

At the end of the day, while I find it amusing that I have been reviewed by someone outside of the HP fan fiction realm, I'm not offended by this review. I would like to say though that for most of us, it isn't so much about grammar, spelling, formatting and all the rest of the rules about writing. It is about the love of a book/tv show/movie/songs that inspire people to write. To put down in their own words what they see in their heads.

Dear Writers of Harry Potter Fan Fiction who were offended by this article,

Tod's criticism is simply that: criticism - particularly, criticism directed at writers by another writer. As Tod makes clear, he is not faulting fan fiction (most of which is, indeed, written by the over-18 variety of human beings) for failing to create a powerful sense of community and belonging for its readers and writers (which it inevitably and importantly does). He is faulting it for succumbing to some of the most basic writing mistakes imaginable. Whether you are 18 or 80, if you are a writer, you ought to care about the craft in which you are participating.

Fan fiction, and in particular Slash, has provided an important space for people who identify themselves as, or are identified by others as, odd. You saw that in some of the reactions to the original article ("geeks," "nerds," etc). Plotlines that allow for same-sex love, relationships, and sex offer a way for those of us who cannot read ourselves into conventional narratives to imagine a future for ourselves, or to imagine ourselves into a much more bearable present. This sense of belonging is crucial, powerful, and ethically necessary.

But writing fan fiction is also, well, writing and, just as the world of Harry Potter has conventions and tropes to be studied and honored (something several commenters fault Tod for neglecting), writing in English also has conventions and tropes: grammar, syntax, figures of speech, and vocabulary. Fan fiction writers would do well to study these as diligently as they study the principles of Transfiguration or the history of the Goblin Wars.

Tod's critiques were honest and, if taken with humility rather than the defensiveness evidenced in several of the responses, helpful.

Signed,
A Fan Fiction Fan

I'd just like to add that the thing I find most disturbing is this part of Elena's post:

The site that my story is posted on has strict rules to follow and while they try and make sure warnings are in place to warn readers about what content they are about to read, how can you really safe guard everything online against younger readers? My point is, Harry Potter is loved by the young and old. I can't trust that my readers have had passionate sex before, as most probably haven't.

...It seems to me like you're saying that, even though the site administrators are attempting to make it difficult for younger viewers to access inappropriate material (sex scenes, per se), you know that they can't always succeed and hence you must "dumb down" your erotic parts so the kids, who shouldn't be viewing it but are anyway, can fully appreciate it?

...Something's terribly wrong here.. 

Wait, Craig, I think I don't understand... Is your charge that fan fiction is harmful to children? Yawn, yawn.

Don't get the misconception that I care about children in any way. This is purely a "judging another human being" issue for me. That is, I enjoy judging other human beings.

In all seriousness, no, I don't think fan fiction damages children. Not any more than the rest of everyday living, at least. I just think it's creepy that Elena is volunteering that her sex scenes are intentionally targeted at children.

"I just think it's creepy that Elena is volunteering that her sex scenes are intentionally targeted at children"

Ah, No! All my stories are rated Mature, meaning for ages 17 and over. If I wanted to intentionally target my stories at children, then everything I would write about would hold a rating of 12+ (G).

What I was trying to say is that people of ALL ages read Harry Potter and Fan Fiction. Through fan fiction sites, I have met some really great people from all over the world and of various ages. My most recent surprise was to find a group of 20 - 25 yr old ladies who are proud virgins. They all read my stories and also write their own, and sex scenes too. So, technically speaking, they too also fall under the category of "Not had passionate sex before".

But you are right, we do "dumb down" the sex scenes. Why? Well, I could go all out and write a smutty piece, post it some where and have some poor 8yr old stumble across it and read Harry Potter porn...Or I could choose a safer way to protect the eyes of the innocent, which is what I have chosen to do.

The site I post on has many warnings you must put in place for each story, plus ratings, plus go through a "validating" system where your story or chapter is read first before being allowed to be posted. Nothing pornographic, or illegal can be posted on this site. Also, the site supports the protection of personal information and has held a chat conference with Del Harvey from perverted justice. Del Harvey also has her own section on the forums where she can answer questions about personal safety on the Internet. I find this site one of the best online to protect its members and the children that visit the site.

I would be more concerned about the parents of a child that was not monitored while being on the Internet and allowed to browse over anything he/she may come across. As a parent myself, I find that the warnings that are given and the rating system, plus the validation system, provides a stable way of making sure kids do not read anything they shouldn't be reading. From the feedback I know of, many parents are thankful that the site does provide these warnings, so they can browse the site and the stories with their children and select what stories their child can read and can't.

So, I do not target children, I target the adult based fans. However, yes, a person under age can neglect the warnings and read my stories anyway. But, if that was to happen, at least I know that they aren't reading anything pornographic or overly violent. With that said though, my concern would still be, where are the parents or the adult supervision to safe guard what a child or teenager accesses online?

Just be sure to never speculate on the hidden lives of TV characters, or come out of a theater talking about what might happen to the characters after the movie. Otherwise Tod will dissect your ideas and explain to you how much they suck based on show bibles, network notes or the proper ways to format a script.

I don't understand the hostility or condescension towards fan fiction. Picking on it for deficiencies in writing skill is like pulling over motorists and telling them to stop singing along with the radio. "You can't stay on tune! I don't care if you are enjoying yourself, you're not as good as a professional so you should stop trying. But you in the Accord, you're actually pretty good so stop singing somebody else's songs immediately and write your own! Otherwise you're just wasting your time."

While fanficcers would undoubtedly benefit from proper training and practice, I would wager that for many of them the point was to create something in a beloved shared universe, to get more of the stories they love even if they have to write them themselves. They may have no ambition to write professionally and no interest in coming up with their own works, which makes mocking them for being unprofessional somewhat pointless.

It's certainly easy to poke fun at them -- many fanficcers do so themselves, note the classy comments from Elena above -- I just don't see why it was necessary. Go condemn a local book club for their amateurish criticism, or yell at kids for trying to draw their favorite comic book characters on their notebooks. If you don't think people should enjoy something enough to want to join in unless they can do so on a professional level, there's no reason to limit yourself to just writing.

CABridges, you're looking at this all wrong.

It's more like, in your example, the motorist was singing the song he heard on the radio for himself, while recording himself. Then he was adding some more verses of his own after the song ended, still just for himself for fun, but still recording it. And then he opened up a band with himself as the singer, and published these songs for other people to listen to and enjoy.
Once he published the songs, with himself as a singer, it would be perfectly fine to judge him based on his singing ability and technique.

Written fan-fiction is written fiction. You won't hear objections like "But it's a crime novel, why do you pick into the writing skills instead of just enjoying the dead people and gunshots?" , or something like "But it's a fantasy book, and it has a cool dragon, and the writer enjoyed writing it, so why do you care if the writer breaks grammatical rules and has bad style? There's a dragon right there!" .
So why do you raise an objection like "But it's based on someone else's story, and the writer had fun and passion writing it, so why do you care how it is written and if the writer has any style and writing talent?" ?

Writing is writing. If people write (fan-fiction, or otherwise) then it's fair to assess their writing skills.

Especially since these are not "dear diary, today I had a Harry Potter idea" stories, but stories which are published. Published for other people to read.

And Tod didn't pick any stories at random, but ones that won some award, and theoretically may be among the best of the sub-genre, or at least among the most read and popular ones.

It's perfectly fair to ask how, popular and award-winning, works of written fiction are when examined as works of written fiction.
The rules of writing don't change much when you write your own crime, drama, science fiction, fantasy, or any other genre. They also don't, and shouldn't, change when you write in someone else's universe of crime, drama, science fiction, fantasy, or whatever.

How much the writer cares about the universe they write in, and how much passion they have in it, is not related to their skill in writing. I assure you that most published professional writers care about their work a great deal. Regardless of whether they're working in their own universe or adding to someone else's.

And in addition to that, though that's a matter of taste, Tod is also funny. That's always a big bonus in my book.

Yes, yes, yes!

Elena, I am SO fascinated by the 20-25–year-old Harry Potter fanfic virgins.  Are they abstaining from sex until marriage for religious reasons?  Or is it a matter of not having found the right guy? 

Izzy - It is a mixture of both. Some women have a religious upbringing, but aren't exactly "religious", yet from this upbringing, it has set certain morals into them that just can't be broken. There are some woman who simply lack the confidence in a relationship and have held off due to low self esteem and self doubt and then there are the ones that just haven't found the right guy. Regardless of their reasons, I do commend them for being strong. It is rare in today's society to hear of these things, especially with the news here at the moment that is focusing on young mothers.

Y - I can agree that all writing is fair game for criticism, but I think taking fan fiction writers out of their context opens them up to ridicule they don't deserve.

Let's go to a karoake contest. People are going to get up there and sing their hearts out. Many of them, most of them, possibly all of them, will suck, and suck hard. Any talent agent present would begin twisting a shrimp fork into his or her ear rather than hear "Miz Independent" tortured one more time. But the people entering are not competing with professional artists. They're up there having fun for the simple joy of performing, and the winner is not always the one with the best voice or the most talent. The winner may be the one who connected best with the audience (or the one who brought the most friends).

Now imagine those happy performers, knowing they were off key but still glowing and giggling from the experience of getting up there in the first place, coming back to their tables to find a critic telling them exactly which notes they missed and why they're wasting their time covering other people's songs if they ever want to succeed as an artist. Even though a public performance is a public performance and is thus fair game for music criticism, it would be entirely besides the point of the whole exercise and would kinda ruin the fun for anyone within earshot. A professional music critic savaging those performers would be seen as a bully, no matter how funny he was.

Ah, but he didn't just enter a small-town Karaoke contest. He went to the national league Karaoke contest. Many many contestants. And he asked a fairly legitimate question: The top-level Karaoke singers, the ones Karaoke lovers everywhere are coming to the Karaoke bars time and time again to see perform, how are those Karaoke singers as singers?

Well, this kind of stretches the scope of the example, I do admit. But Karaoke isn't a good comparison on that level, because you don't have thousands (more?) of people going to Karaoke shows to listen to the contesters. But if there were, like there are lots of people who read this fanfic?

And he didn't quite nitpick on small minor points. He went over some basic conventions and skills of the craft. Stuff you'd see covered in "advice for starting writers 101" articles all over.

Not only that, but he wasn't even picking on them and trying to belittle them, which is why I really don't understand the heavy criticism here from some commenters.
If someone writes for public reading, they should at the very least try to make sure they know a little bit of how to, well, write. And my sentence here is already more harsh on them than what he wrote.

If I went Karaoke singing in a bar with friends, and someone criticized my singing skills, or stagecraft, I may have a problem with it. If I recorded and published my Karaoke songs, for fans of Karaoke everywhere to see and hear, then no. If I was happy singing, knowing I was off-key, I wouldn't publish my off-key songs just because I had a blast singing them in private.

You practice a craft in public, it's legitimate to see how good you are at that craft.

I guess the problem I have with it is that most fanfic writers I have known were not writers who chose a particular fandom to write in. They were fans who wanted to participate and chose writing as a means to do so.

There's also a difference in the perception of private and public. More than anything else, fandom is a community. An invented one, one based on mutual love of someone else's work, but a community. Posting fanfic isn't perceived as publishing as much as making it available for your friends to see. Like Xeroxing off a dozen copies and handing them out (which is also, technically, publishing). Of course since it's placed online, everyone else besides the community can see it as well, but that's really incidental.

I don't dispute the legitmacy of the criticism. I do dispute the necessity, especially posted here where the object is not to enlighten fanfic writers on how to improve their craft but to amuse Jewcy.com readers with what those whacky fanfic writers are doing. Which, come to think of it, might be the source of my discontent. Context is everything. Had this been posted in a fanfic forum, or even on a writing site, I wouldn't have cared. Posted here it just seems, to me, to be mockery.

If I wanted to mock them, CABridges, I would have. And you'll note, I actually praised one of them.

There is nothing private about publishing your work online. The perception of publishing anything online is just that: it's published. (It's fairly standard in book contracts, for instance, that you have to assert if any of the work has appeared online in any form, as that's considered previously published.) I have no problem with art for art's sake -- you'll note I didn't go into a long dissertation on issues of plausibility, characterization, setting, etc. -- and as such I focused on craft alone. (I assure you, if these were my students, for instance, the critique would be far different.) These are award nominated stories published in a public setting, just like any literary journal or online magazine, and that I didn't hold them up for critique like I might in the LA Times Book Review or something is not simple restraint on my part but a choice to show these writers how to improve their craft. If you put your work out in the public domain, expect the public to have an opinion. Saying that it's different because it's all about community means nothing to me: I wanted to look at the writing.

I didn't take these writers out of context -- I used their context alone. Look, if I compared these writers to Richard Ford or even JK Roweling, and made assertions based on their comparative skill sets, that would be out of context. Instead, I judged them based on who they were and in comparison to each other.

I don't think every writer should want to do it professionally nor that they need to do so up to professional standards. But if they are writing 80,000 word fan fiction novels and sharing them with the entire world, it would make sense to me if they at least wanted to improve their craft some. Harry and Ron can jerk off Snape while Hermione watches for 800 pages for all I care, but I'd like to think even the average reader would enjoy writing that wasn't predicated on some of the more disorienting errors.

As for the "why" of it all -- well, it's simple: Just like you felt the need to write an ode to the CD's birthday recently in your online column, I felt the need to write about Harry Potter fan fiction on the dawn of the release of the new book as a way of looking at a topical event. And to engage Jewcy readers. And to engage myself. Pretty much the same reason I write anything. 

I know it is about eight months since the last comment, but I'd just like to put some of the previous discussion in context. And clarify a couple of points. First one of the reasons why the writting is sometimes so bad on Harry Potter Fan Fiction is that there are no standards for quality.HPFF does not reject stories for being bad or even look at grammar or most formatting issues. In fact many people will post stories knowing that there are errors and over time will slowly clean them up and improve them. Often times getting them beta read only after they are first posted. On most other sites what you see is far closer to a finished product. Most HPFF can be considered stories in various draft form.  Though to be fair all the nominees Tod had a chance to review were marked as completed stories. Two. The assumption is made that the Dobbie nominees turned out to be the best stories. For the most part they were not. A high percentage of the nominees ended up being site staff, validators and prefects of the forums. Unless a really excellent writer was active on the HPFF forum, they were not likely to be nominated. Which means Tod for the most part was looking at the most popular writers on the forums (which also do to the population demographics skewed to female writers between 16-20.)  Elena like me is one of the older prefects there and I think is in her thirties. While Hufflepuff  the writer Tod praised is I believe on the young end of that range.  And there are some stories there that are written by very talented people, they just tend to be buried in the archive, because talented writters who still waste there time on HPFF don't tend to waste it posting it in the forums. They'd rather write.

There are even a couple of published novelists, who are slumming just for fun and practice on HPFF.   

Three. What Elena says about the need to write sex scenes with purple prose, is pretty much true. Even a very talented writer I think would have trouble writing such scenes within the sites rules. It's a challenge (which is part of the reason people try to write them). The site rules are very restrictive with this stuff and as a prefect it would be incredibly embarrasing to be caught violating the rules, so that self-conciousness (this sense that I know I shouldn't be writing this stuff but I am can effect the outcome.) Also the example the site uses as acceptable mature writing is itself purple prose.      

Lastly, I'd just like to add that I found Tod's article hilarious. Sometimes nothing is better then to see something that you love and that you know is odd be skewered. Afterall the first rule of happiness is to be able to laugh at yourself.  

Tod might have had better luck at FictionAlley, another large site hosting an extensive collection of HP fan fiction.  FA does have some minimal editorial standards in regard to grammar, spelling, and punctuation, though they don't reject stories for the sort of stylistic flaws that Tod highlighted in his original post, so the site is still rife with bad or mediocre writing.  They allow sex scenes as long as they don't violate an admittedly subjective line based on the MPAA ratings system -- "R-rated" is all right, "X-rated" is forbidden.

 I've spent a fair amount of time reading and posting there (more in the discussion forums than the stories, though), and would like to highly recommend one story that I think might conceivably have earned a decent mark in one of Tod's classes: Man-Eaters of Kumaon," by Ignipes, at http://www.fictionalley.org/authors/ignipes/MEOK.html.  The one possible stylistic issue I see in "Man-Eaters" is the use of the present tense throughout; that's a tricky thing to carry off, and is often done very badly by novice writers, but when it works, as for example in Neal Stephenson's "Snowcrash," it can give a story a kind of breathless immediacy that's difficult to achieve by any other means.  I think it works it Man-Eaters, but I'd be fascinated to hear what a professional like Tod makes of the story.

 By the by, in case anyone is wonder, I am not Ignipes.  I have a couple of stories up at FA, under the pseudonym "Mantis" I'm using here, but I doubt I'd last long in Tod's class.