FEATURE
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Guns, God, and Virginia Tech | |
| The massacre prompts a religious conservative to rethink gun control | ||
 by David Klinghoffer, April 17, 2007
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TAGS:
Tragedy is the right time for introspection, and so after the massacre of 32 students and teachers at Virginia Tech I’d like to reverse a position I’ve taken in the past, including in this web space. I believe I was wrong about gun control. On this point, the liberals may be right.
In a previous article in Jewcy I briefly noted my former view that the problem with gun control is that it
"I Believe I Was Wrong About Gun Control": Author reconsiders Judaic view of gun control after the Virginia Tech massacre assumes people lack the moral power to make free choices, so they can’t be given the responsibility of owning a weapon. Whereas the Biblical and Jewish worldview emphasizes our freedom to act morally if we choose to do so, gun-control advocates think it’s a material object, a gun, that causes the shooter to commit his crime.
The New York Times headline said it all: “Gun Rampage is Nation’s Worst,” as if it were the Glock 9 mm handgun that rampaged through an engineering building, dragging the helpless suspect, Cho Seung-Hui, along behind it.
The Times editorial put this even more clearly: “What is needed, urgently, is stronger controls over the lethal weapons that cause such wasteful carnage and such unbearable loss.” There you have it. Weapons, not people, cause carnage. Could there be a clearer statement of the materialist worldview?
I still think that, in general, conservatives are right to hold people responsible for poor choices, rather than claiming, as liberals do, that they never had a choice at all. But when it comes to weapon ownership, I’m coming around to the opinion that our culture isn’t fit for that kind of responsibility.
For guidance on public policy, I look to the Bible. That’s not because I’m some kind of a theocrat. Clearly, American government is secular by design. Rather, Scripture encapsulates wisdom which you can regard as either divine in origin, or simply the product of millennia of human thought and experience brought to bear on ultimate questions. There’s nothing theocratic about applying such wisdom to secular legal issues.
At the same time, simply quoting a verse doesn’t tell you how the Biblical worldview would apply to a given policy question. The text is too cryptic and allusive for that. Instead, you need to see what the classic codifiers of Biblical tradition say. The challenge is to extract the general principle from the Scriptural text and then translate it into practical terms, applicable to the government of our public and private lives. That’s what the Talmud does. Legal codifiers like Maimonides then clarify the issues further.
As for the merchandising of weaponry, the book of Leviticus makes the essential point when it says, “You shall not place a stumbling block before the blind” (19:14). Obviously the verse isn’t meant literally. Do we really need to be warned against tormenting the handicapped?
Katoov b'Torah!: Citing the Bible isn't always enoughNo, it’s telling us to take into account the weaknesses of a person in our dealings with him. Don’t pour liquor for someone with a propensity to drink and drive. The verse doesn’t contradict my previously stated principle that the Bible gives us liberty to screw up. But that principle is very broad.
There are certain circumstances—metaphorically speaking, conditions of “blindness”—where a society should remove temptations and causes for stumbling from before people who are likely to stumble.
In its tractate Avodah Zarah (page 15b), the Talmud indicates how this would apply in a Jew’s relationship with idolaters: “We may not sell to them weapons or accessories of weapons. Nor may we sharpen weapons for them. We may not sell to them stocks [for securing feet] or [prisoners’] collars, nor shackles, nor chains of iron.”
Maimonides codifies this as practical law in his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Murder and the Guarding of Life, 12:12-14), forbidding the sale of “all weapons of war” or any “object that poses a threat to the public,” and citing Leviticus 19:14. He makes an exception for selling armaments to the nation’s military (or presumably its local police units).
That would appear to seal the matter. From the perspective of Jewish law, there seems to be very solid ground for restricting weapon sales. The only point of ambiguity arises from the fact that the Talmud in Avodah Zarah (meaning literally, “Foreign Worship”) is concerned with “idolaters,” heathens of a particularly nasty kind.
A spokesman for the National Rifle Association, if he were also a Talmud enthusiast, could respond: That was then. This is now. We don’t live in the grotesquely immoral idolatrous society that the rabbis of the Talmud were familiar with. There is no analogy between selling swords to their heathen neighbors and selling handguns to the much more civilized American citizenry.
My reply would be that it depends on how you define “idolater.” Many of the laws in Avodah Zarah haven’t been applied for centuries. Partly, this is owing to the definition of idolatry advanced by an important Medieval Talmudist, Rabbi Menachem Ha-Meiri, who lived in southern France.
Ha-Meiri defined the characteristics of idolatrous and non-idolatrous societies—or as he put it, “nations not restricted by the ways of religion” and “nations restricted by the ways of religion.” Provocatively, his definition of idolatry was based not on standards of Jewish religious dogma but on a more general consideration of whether the culture in question is secular or religious. A secular nation would be considered barbarous, therefore “idolatrous.”
We should not sell deadly weapons to members of a society “not restricted by the ways of religion.” It is simply too dangerous to entrust them with this responsibility.
On the other hand, living in medieval Catholic Frances, Ha-Meiri considered his own Christian neighbors
This Is Not an Idol: Medieval rabbi considered French Catholics religious, not idolatrous to be “religious” rather than “idolatrous.” To sell them armaments, for private or other use, would not violate the Talmud’s rule. Nor at a Biblical level would it be the equivalent of “placing a stumbling block before the blind.”
The issue of gun control comes down, then, to a question about the nature of our society. Is it “religious” enough to merit free access to fire arms? Can Americans be trusted?
Some can, of course. But the Bible also advises, in evaluating the spiritual health of a society, that we look to the majority of citizens. A law in Deuteronomy (13:13-19) has it that if more than half of a city’s population has embraced idolatry, it is to be considered a “wayward city” and destroyed.
Because someone is bound to misunderstand what I’m saying, let me repeat. I’m not a theocrat calling for America’s increasingly secular society to be subjected to Biblical-style destruction. In fact there’s good evidence that no “wayward city” was ever identified and laid waste in Israel. Instead, the Bible is simply offering us a yardstick for judging cultures.
It is saying there is a tipping point, beyond which the character of a society changes so much that new rules must be applied in dealing with its population. Has America reached that point?
Conservatives prefer to think of the United States as a Christian country, which historically it is. And indeed, according to the Pew Research Council, in 2002, some 82 percent of Americans claimed to be Christian. But I wonder how much that actually means.
Liberals and secularists will not like the direction I’m heading. But I also take note of a much more worrisome statistic from the respected Glenmary Research Center in Nashville. Their data is based on polling that asked people not merely how they identify but how they practice religion. As of 2000, the percentage of American “church adherents” stood at only 47.4 percent. If you add Jews, you get another 2.2 percent, for a total of 49.6 percent.
So Bible-believing Americans who actually practice a religion appear to be less than half the country. We should take that into account when deciding if ours is a civilized and religious society or, instead, an increasingly secular and wayward one.
The tragedy at Virginia Tech raises the question, while polling data and the wisdom of the Bible offer the troubling if tentative answer. Perhaps the time has come to review the laws that grant our nation such freedom of gun ownership. I don't relish admitting this, especially in the context of such sorrowful news, but liberals may indeed be right about this. Just not for the reasons they think.
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David Klinghoffer is a senior fellow in the Discovery Institute’s program in Religion, Liberty & Public Life. His new book, More... |
Elisa
klinghoffer was wrong!?
in other news, bears shit in the woods.
DSW
Its good to see that you are reconsidering gun control
I know we will never completely get rid of guns in America - nor do I think we should. However, I always find it odd when people oppose strict gun control. There really is no logical reason for such staunch opposition. To drive a car in this country you must: Take an education and instruction class; pass a written and driving exam; be finger printed and photographed; issued a license; carry insurance; and every 5-10 years renew said license. I see no reason why at the very least these same standards should also be in place for gun ownership. Additionally, I think local AND federal background checks should be conducted on potential gun owners.
In the wake of this tragedy I hope at the very least a serious and legitimate debate on gun control reform takes place in this country.
Anonymous
Really?
Is this article really using the Talmud to justify a fundamental change in the Constitution?
Really?
Is this how we should govern a nation? Are opponents to the Second Amendment truly that far gone?
Anonymous
Not true... In NH when you
Not true... In NH when you get a driver's license you just pass a test and show your birth certificate... no fingerprints or exams, just a road test and you're golden. You don't even have to give them your SSN.
Anonymous
this is why you shouldn't turn to the Bible for policy decisions
Moral agency and "holding people responsible" for their actions is all well and good as a philosophy. (Well, I'm not sure it is, but certainly, it's respectable as a world outlook.) Government isn't about moral philosophy, it's about protecting citizen's lives and liberties. If we can save lives without placing and undue burden, do it. Whether this theoretically lets people off the hook has nothing to do with it.
Anonymous
Ugh, the old "guns don't kill people" canard
No, of course not, guns don't break out of dresser drawers, pick up the car keys, jump in the car and go looking for people to kill. Guns don't kill people, people holding guns kill people. They kill little kids accidentally all the time, they kill spouses daily, they kill quickly and easily, unlike knives or bats or pepper spray. They allow spur of the moment massacres. They allow spousal temper tantrums to turn into death. The NRA wants everyone to carry weapons, so when someone starts shooting, we can all shoot wildly back at them, so instead of the one idiot killing a bunch of people, we can let each person kill a person or two by firing away trying to kill the bad guy.
I'm glad you've changed your mind, but you really didn't need such a lengthy reason. Many people have impulse control issues, and there's no longer a need to hunt to feed yourself or your family. If the Secret Service can't prevent themselves from shooting people accidentally, do you want your next door neighbor who drinks too much to have a gun? We're not a country that needs every idiot who can barely tie their shoes to be armed. Let people rent their guns when they want to go out and slaughter unarmed animals for fun. I'd like to, but I won't take that away from them. Maybe they should have to compose an essay first though, telling us why they feel the need to kill defenseless animals for fun. Especially those idiotic canned hunts, where people like Dick Cheney don't even have to track down their prey, it's released in front of their faces so they don't have to bother with the hard part of hunting...looking for the defenseless animals.
Oh, and I didn't need to write such a lengthy response either. Guns make killing too easy. If someone wants to slaughter another human being or animal, let them get their hands dirty doing it, and let's give the other person (or people) a fighting chance.
Anonymous
Gun Control
Look at AUSTRALIA, ITS GUN CONTROL IS TIGHT! VERY FREAKIN RESTRICTED! MASACRES LIKE COLUMBINE AND VIRGINIA TECH DONT HAPPEN HER. NO ONE I KNOW OWNS A GUN- ODDS ON IF YOU OWN A GUN HERE UR A CRIMINAL!
GOD BLESS ALL 32 VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES!
CHANGE YOUR GUN LAWS AMERICA. NOW. BEFORE MORE KIDS DIE AT THE HANDS OF OTHER KIDS!
JewcyCraig
Australia
Isn't Australia a nation of criminals and convicts from Great Britain? I mean, the song Waltzing Matilda (aside from dingos, koalas, and kangaroos, arguably Australia's most well-known export) is about a hobo who gets caught stealing livestock and, rather than face the punitive recourse of his actions, decides to drown himself in a well.
Anonymous
VA Tech WAS a "gun-free" zone
While Virginia is a state with liberal gun ownership and concealed-carry laws, VA Tech is an exception -- no guns allowed. Hence, everyone there is a sitting duck for the Cho Sueng-huis of the world. Perhaps the most ironic thing about this thread is that Israel is not about to restrict the right of law-abiding citizens to own and carry guns, since disarming citizens in the face of Hamas and Hezbollah attacks would be tantamount to national suicide.
How about focusing our attention on the fact that the university and government were so focused on protecting Mr. Cho's privacy with regard to his deteriorating mental state, that his name was not entered into the database of criminals and mentally ill people who are not eligible to purchase firearms, despite having been ordered into outpatient mental treatment?
Anonymous
Gun Control
Gun Control
Only people who are determined to live according to the law are regulated by the law.
If a person who is willing to commit murder, I doubt he would be regulated by law. Weapons are as readily available to him as Marijuana is to any high school kid.Any bartender can tell you where to buy a good gun for $300 and a not so good one for a c-note. Using law to limit guns is as effective as using law to prevent murder.
Moishe Rosen
Anonymous
Gun Control
If a person is planning to commit a murder, they can get a weapon, and nothing gun control can do is going to change that. How many murders, though, are really planned out as opposed to someone "blowing up" under extraneous circumstances and having a weapon nearby? An ordinary citzen would probably nnot buy an illegal gun just to keep around the house, but under enough stress, many are tempted to use legal ones.
And what regular civilian really needs a gun in the house? A properly stored hunting rifle in the hands of a trained sportsman, maybe, but pistols? Assault rifles? I know some deer hunters but I don't think they use assault weapons. People sometimes feel more secure in their home with a gun but it is much more likely to be used against a family member than successfully against an intruder, as a gun in the hands of a panicked novice is not very helpful. Yes, the Bill of Rights states Americans' right to bear arms.This is a point that gun control opponents love to bring up, conveniently forgetting to mention that in the Constitution "arms" means blunderbusses, as well as the fact that people actually needed guns when it was written.
Believe me, I hate government control. But if by outlawing the sale of pistols and assault weapons to civilians we can save tremendous amounts of lives at the sole expense of violating a ridiculous interpretation of the Constitution, then why not?
Anonymous
the availability of weapons
You are trying to express a large chunk of the blindingly obvious in a language into which it does not easily or usefully translate. It is unnecessary to bother Leviticus to find good reason to control the availability of lethal weapons to the general population of the US, it's not as if these objects were made by supernatural forces. And you're already doing it: People can't start up nerve gas factories over there (it would be illegal even in texas I believe) so it's just a measure of regulation of a section of the economy. Eradicating retail firearms would be an obvious start. There will be a huge pool of rusting guns for many years, it's hardly going to be cold turkey...
tom
clearwood.co.uk
Anonymous
Basic problem with gun laws...
There is a basic problem with gun laws, however. Generally, they only keep weapons out of the hands of law-abiding citizens (i.e. the people who respect and obey those laws). They have generally failed to keep them out of the hands of criminals.
So, what happens is that most of the law-abiding citizens are then unarmed, while the criminals still have guns. Not necissarily the desired effect.
---Jacob
Anonymous
50 Guns Would Do It
If fifty students or faculty or employees or visitors in those Virginia Tech buildings had guns, permits, and proper training (as promulgated by the NRA and other groups), the murderer would have failed in his mission to kill thirty-two people.
If any of you had been in those classrooms or hallways and had been saved by an average citizen who was armed and properly trained and had used his or her weapon to stop Cho, you would be grateful for his or her preparations and actions to save your life. You would be pro-gun for the rest of your life.
Stop your hypocrisy! Your thinking is flawed and foolish.
Laurel Snyder
Fifty psychos
In order for your theory to work, those fifty people would have to be people I can trust with a gun. And guess what? The people I know with guns and gun training are completely paranoid freaks, or people raised by paranoid freaks! And trust me, I know a bunch.
"Average citizens" who wander around schools with guns are NOT generally people I want "defending" me. They're people who need a psych evaluation.
This is not to say that EVERYONE who can (and wants to) fire a gun is crazy, but I think we'd just end up with a lot more gun wackos out there. Not to mention accidental shootings, kids playing with guns, drunken mistakes... ruined lives.
xoL http://jewishyirishy.com
JewcyCraig
So true
They tend to be waack-jobs. Then they go around posting these sensationalist, kind of over-profound statements on Jewish websites, capping them off with things like "Stop your hypocrisy! Your thinking is flawed and foolish." Who wants that?
Laurel Snyder
You do!
Admit it, man! You love the wack-jobs! What would life be without 'em?
xoL http://jewishyirishy.com
spamtrap
Gun Training
I know people with gun training, and I know people who are supposed to have gun training but they behave as if they did not have any. I think rigorous gun safety training in our schools would help a lot, at least the next generation would know what he is talking about. I have the right to defend my home, and having defensive weapons at hand can be part of this. Should I have the right to own a shotgun without getting a license, passing some test etc? Even if I have the right to have defensive weapons, do I have the right to buy a GLOCK 39? Well, these are good questions.
Anonymous
gun free zones are not gun control
Conservatives have been hooting and hollering how Va Tech was a gun-free zone, as if Va Tech had customs agents ready and waiting to find and confiscate guns at every entrance to the school.
Of course "gun free zones," don't work, because America is a free country that gives its citizens complete liberty to travel whereever they like within our borders. For the same reason, gun control will never work at a state level, because people can always drive to a red state to purchase whatever killing machine they desire.
The only type of law that will truly reduce gun violence is gun control on a national level. I'm not saying we confiscate every hunter's .22, but there's no reason why law-abiding civilians need automatic or semi-automatic weapons. Yes, people who already have them will continue to use them, but if we halt their sales from now on, eventually the total number of semi-automatic guns (and the lives they take) will be reduced.
Anonymous
Jews and guns
Have any of you read Oleg Volk's http://www.a-human-right.com/? The second amendment isn't about hunting, it's about liberty, its about genocide prevention. There are around 40,000 people killed in car accidents in the U.S. every year, in comparison to a tragedy like this.
None of our ancestors in Russia, Poland, Germany, etc had any means of protecting themselves, which is how we all wound up in this country. "Never again" means having an air force, tanks, the Mossad, the bomb. And in the Diaspora here in the U.S, it means access to modern firearms.
Like Woody Allen said in Manhattan about a march of neo nazis:
Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna
march in New Jersey, you know?
We should go there,
get some guys together.
Get some bricks and baseball bats
and explain things to 'em.
There was this devastating
satirical piece on that in the Times.
Well, a satirical piece in the Times is
one thing, but bricks get right to the point.
But biting satire
is better that physical force.
No, physical force is better with Nazis.
It's hard to satirise a guy with shiny boots.
Also check out the Jews For Presevation of Firearms Ownership.
Anonymous
Response to Laurel
What I fear, Laurel, are people like yourself who so loosely label individuals you've never met and so casually use the name "psycho" when they're debating issues of societal import. You tell us to trust you with your generaliztion of others but that licensed gun owners "have to be people I can trust with a gun."
"The problem with open-minded liberals is that they tend to lose their brains."
-- Calvin Trillin
Anonymous
Leftist Name Calling
Why do the leftists insist on calling others names who disagree with their views?
This goes on at every level of American debate. My goodness, respect others. Speak civilly. Use logic to make your points. Be a mensch.
François Blumen...
...and kangaroos, Craig
criminals and convicts, and kangaroos...
Anonymous
zionist Jews and their gun control
senator feinstein packs heat, in public. so a gun for her, but none for you as she is 'special' as we learn all zionist jews are special.
hitler registered gun owners, hitler confiscated jews guns after telling leading zionist jews to hit the road and leave germany, as well the zionists jews were big fans of hitlers, then hitler, grabbed the religious jews gold, and tossed them into labor/concentration camps, and a lot of jews, of course with a lot of my relatives, died. thanks to the zionists who sponsored hitler and the german sheep he lead to the slaughter who followed that mad man. of course you jews have never accepted your responsibility for the financial chaos your jewish ancestors sowed into germany pre ww1 and pre ww2, that gave rise to hitler on the jewish financiers backing.
now stalin and lenin, who were jews confiscated guns, and then went on to kill 20 million plus christians, plus around 100k non zionist jews who didnt go along with the G-dless communist state first agenda, aka as zionism.
most of these 'massacres' like the columbine massacre, are programmed, zionist events. so lets be honest and frank here for once. if one can find an honest jew like israel shahak.
http://judicial-inc.biz/columbine_killers.htm
now this is a truth, jewcy wont like getting out to the masses. now the zionist jew in history has always hated the true torah following religous jew, even more than christians. not from the filth and vulgarity i see on this site, i suspect many of you are true religous jews, but i have know a few good, holy jews, not many but a few, like israel shahak, and jack bernstein.
come and send a jew like stalin, to get my gun, and the 75 % of the jewish secret police who were ashkenazi-russian jews, and see what happens. gun control is a zionist, communist invention. stalin the jew, taught hitler to built his camps and how to control his population. how ironic so many jews died along with poles, roma, slavs, and others. it reminds me of the story of hamam building gallows for the innocent jew, to find himself hung in his own gallows. stalins georgian name translatd as jewison. his wives were all jewish. there is no dispute whatsoever that lenin, marx, and trotsky were jews.
i have never seen such a conceited, self absorbed narcisstic, tribal people as the jews, ex some of the arab tribes. you are not 'chosen' anymore as the truth and, mercy, and love and the compassion of HOLINESS of Gd is not with you Jews as you rejected the reformer of the Jewish religions words, Yeshua.
and i worked in africa and the middle east for 10 years. but you american jews are the center of the zionist/communist movement. you are a subversive lot, but americans are getting wise to the zionists tired old lies and treachery.
someone should tell you zionists the truth, so you can reject zionism, before you meet Gd. what is interesting, i was examining the torah,and found numerous scriptures where G-d says he will deal with the Jewish nation for the controversy of zionism. you were not even supposed to have a king, much less were you commanded to try and destroy the entire world.
certainly no race or tribe of people has caused as much suffering and pain to the world as the zionist jews. what an implacable, unkind, and profane people you have become, vain in your own conceit and dishonesty.
here is a site www.jewishracism.com, run by a non zionist jew that gets to the ROOT, of the worlds problem, the global zionism, political movment. the zionist jew is the root of all the worlds sorrow and pain. this man is a good jew, for he tells the truth.
what a merciless, cold, heartless people you are
signed.
a 'human cattle', or goyim!!
Anonymous
zionist Jews and their gun control
senator feinstein packs heat, in public. so a gun for her, but none for you as she is 'special' as we learn all zionist jews are special.
hitler registered gun owners, hitler confiscated jews guns after telling leading zionist jews to hit the road and leave germany, as well the zionists jews were big fans of hitlers, then hitler, grabbed the religious jews gold, and tossed them into labor/concentration camps, and a lot of jews, of course with a lot of my relatives, died. thanks to the zionists who sponsored hitler and the german sheep he lead to the slaughter who followed that mad man. of course you jews have never accepted your responsibility for the financial chaos your jewish ancestors sowed into germany pre ww1 and pre ww2, that gave rise to hitler on the jewish financiers backing.
now stalin and lenin, who were jews confiscated guns, and then went on to kill 20 million plus christians, plus around 100k non zionist jews who didnt go along with the G-dless communist state first agenda, aka as zionism.
most of these 'massacres' like the columbine massacre, are programmed, zionist events. so lets be honest and frank here for once. if one can find an honest jew like israel shahak.
http://judicial-inc.biz/columbine_killers.htm
now this is a truth, jewcy wont like getting out to the masses. now the zionist jew in history has always hated the true torah following religous jew, even more than christians. not from the filth and vulgarity i see on this site, i suspect many of you are true religous jews, but i have know a few good, holy jews, not many but a few, like israel shahak, and jack bernstein.
come and send a jew like stalin, to get my gun, and the 75 % of the jewish secret police who were ashkenazi-russian jews, and see what happens. gun control is a zionist, communist invention. stalin the jew, taught hitler to built his camps and how to control his population. how ironic so many jews died along with poles, roma, slavs, and others. it reminds me of the story of hamam building gallows for the innocent jew, to find himself hung in his own gallows. stalins georgian name translatd as jewison. his wives were all jewish. there is no dispute whatsoever that lenin, marx, and trotsky were jews.
i have never seen such a conceited, self absorbed narcisstic, tribal people as the jews, ex some of the arab tribes. you are not 'chosen' anymore as the truth and, mercy, and love and the compassion of HOLINESS of Gd is not with you Jews as you rejected the reformer of the Jewish religions words, Yeshua.
and i worked in africa and the middle east for 10 years. but you american jews are the center of the zionist/communist movement. you are a subversive lot, but americans are getting wise to the zionists tired old lies and treachery.
someone should tell you zionists the truth, so you can reject zionism, before you meet Gd. what is interesting, i was examining the torah,and found numerous scriptures where G-d says he will deal with the Jewish nation for the controversy of zionism. you were not even supposed to have a king, much less were you commanded to try and destroy the entire world.
certainly no race or tribe of people has caused as much suffering and pain to the world as the zionist jews. what an implacable, unkind, and profane people you have become, vain in your own conceit and dishonesty.
here is a site www.jewishracism.com, run by a non zionist jew that gets to the ROOT, of the worlds problem, the global zionism, political movment. the zionist jew is the root of all the worlds sorrow and pain. this man is a good jew, for he tells the truth.
what a merciless, cold, heartless people you are
signed.
a 'human cattle', or goyim!!
Jacob
re: zionist Jews and their gun control
Perhaps you should start moderating comments, if visitors are going to be posting this kind of neo-nazi crap, and links to such blatant anti-semitic tripe.
But, there is something to be learned from his comments.
It's because of hateful scum like this that the Jewish people really DO need to be armed and ready. And, not with guns designed for hunting. But with guns designed specifically for killing human beings - in order to defend ourselves from people like this, who will inevitably attack us again.
And, that's not "gun-whacko" talk - it's simple realism. If you think that anti-semitism and violence against Jews has ended in this "enlightened age", then you've completely forgotten the lessons of history - after all, that's what they thought prior to WW1 / WW2, in Germany... and we all know how that turned out.
Further, if you think there is no anti-semitic violence left in the world, why not go visit a mosque in Israel? That will be a truly "enlightening" experience for you.
Just my two shekels, for what it's worth.
---Jacob
Anonymous
Gun Control & the Talmud
Gun control is the only possible position a follower of the Talmud can take because all Jews are commanded to destroy even the best of gentiles. When you leave them unarmed, they will be destroyed by the product of a judicial system that is over 50% Jewish, once again, in accordance to the Talmud. If you let them live, they will demand that sex with children be even more outlawed, which as you know is the only way to purge the X-tian values from the wee ones.
Shalom, Iran shall be ours.
Anonymous
Jacob
But Jacob, wasn't it a Jewish radical dude that stormed in a Mosque and killed 30+ muslims during prayer several years ago? Funny how that never reaches the "American" media. And while the "zionist jews and their gun control" poster's comments were harsh, much of it if not all of it is true. Stalin and Lenin WERE Jewish and did kill more than 20 million Christians(Bolshevik Revolution), but this fact somehow doesn't reach "our" school books. The only so-called tragedy that is discussed, on a one-way basis, is the Jewish Holocaust. And why are people being thrown in jail for doubting events that can be PROVEN false by scientific methods. And why is it that the Protocols of Zion that was declared by a Swiss court to be a forgery presented as fact. Well actually it is a fact that the court did declare it was a forgery BUT this was later overturned by the highest court in Switzerland and was proven to be a legitimate document, NOT FORGED. But the "American" media doesn't tell America. After reading, studying and listening to first hand acccounts of many things related to Zionism I'm finding out that this movement has been very, very, very naughty!
Jersey
JewcyCraig
Where the fuck
Where the fuck do you crazy bastards come from? "Stalin was Jewish"?? Back up your crazy bastard sources with something that isn't blatant anti-semitic or anti-sionist propaganda. I mean, Jesus, I don't even give a shit about any of this, but the crimes being committed here are against intellectual thought as an organism...Not the Jews or the anti-semites.
All I hear is "BLAH BLAH BLAH."
Anonymous
Neo-Nazism
Jacob, I also have to comment on your Neo-nazi comment. I'm sure you've heard of a gentleman named Frank Collins. If not, he was a Wylie Old Nazi who decided to rally in Skokie, Illinois in 1973. He picked Skokie because it was a heavily populated Jewish community. Anyway, the "american" airways were bombarded night and day about the event and many Jews cried in vain about how terrible this man is and how it brought back terrible memories of WWII. The funny thing about this particular event was the fact that Americans were THEN AT THIS MOMENT introduced to the 6 million Holocaust figure. The American Red Cross, The 1938-1947 World Almanac, President Roosevelt, Joseph Stalin nor Winston Churchill had NEVER, NOT ONCE mentioned anything about 6 million Jews being systematically slaughtered. NOT ONCE!!! But the most ironic facet to the whole Frank Collins affair was that the man was really Frank COHEN, a Jewish guy who's parents allegedly were killed by the Germans during the Holocaust!!! Wow!! I swear!! You couldn't make this stuff up if you wanted to! Just "Google" his name or the event and you'll see. Then there is the infamous Grand Dragon, Daniel Burros who plotted on assasinating prominent Jews whom he calls "society's disease"! Well, it turns out that Daniel Burros was a nice Jewish boy from Queens who somehow went from being his rabbi's star puplil to a KKK Grand Dragon. My point is: Is it possible that Jews are the ones who draw swastikas on their OWN synagogue's to create an atmosphere more suitable for themselves. Please no name calling! I just want facts; names, dates, places, events.
Jersey
François Blumen...
Buddha, man
Craig, why do you have to invoke a Jew in your reply, eh? ("I mean, Jesus,") Obviously you cannot even swear without referring to a Jew, thus demonstrating the extent of the all-encompassing Jewish-Masonic conspiracy (I am very much dismayed by the fact that our friends and co-conspirators the Masons are increasingly left out of the equation. I believe it is a consequence of an nascent laziness on the part of our conspiracy theorist friends. Shocking.)
Anonymous
See all they can do is call people childish names!
Mr. Name Caller, you were saying what???
Joseph Stalin was the second leader of the Soviet Union. His real name was Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, and he was also known as Koba (a Georgian folk hero) to his closest sphere. In Russia proper the two most powerful front men, Stalin and Molotov, were married to Jewesses. Stalin's wife (his third) was the sister of Kaganovich, the Jewish Commissar of Heavy Industries and dictator over all the great industrial cities of slave labor. (It has been estimated that Kaganovich worked 15 to 20 million non-Jews. He employed many of his kinsmen in his bureaucracy, but he does not enslave Jews)
There was increasing suspicion that Stalin himself was Jewish. He had always been considered a Semitic-Mongoloid mixture, perhaps non-Jewish. MANY JEWS, HOWEVER, BELIEVED HIM TO BE ONE OF THEM, and a columnist in the Los Angeles B'nai B'rith Messenger, March 3, 1950, col. 2, p. 5 wrote: "A FORMER SOVIET GENERAL CLAIMS THAT JOSEPH STALIN IS OF JEWISH ANCESTRY."
MANY WHITE RUSSIANS WHO FLED THE BOLSHEVIKI SAY STALIN WAS A JEW. ONE, A CAPTAIN IN THE CZAR ’ S ARMIES, STATED THAT HE KNEW STALIN IN THEIR BOYHOOD AND THAT STALIN ’ S FATHER (DZHUGASHVILI) WAS “ A JEWISH COBBLER. ”
Anonymous
Masonic element
Francois, that is AN excellent point!! You are so correct. The Bush's, Kerry's(Actually Jewish), the Gore's, Hagee's and all other Masons who are WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY betraying their nation are just as guilty and even MORE SO! You are absolutely correct.
Jersey
PS - I also forgot about the previous Senator from Virgina, what's his name? You know, the one who called the Indian dude a "Macaca". You know who I'm talking about! The guy that parades around town wearing confederate flags, said "No" to making Martin Luther King Day a national holiday. Dang it! What's his name?? But anyway......he had to admit that he was Jewish but didn't know it! Too funny!!!!!
François Blumen...
You missed out on one or two
Hey, anon, I think in your list of powerful Masonic Jews in control of America those days, you forgot Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Paris Hilton and Conan O'Brian.
Anonymous
RE:You missed out on one or two
I stand corrected! I agree 1000% with your assessment! I really do! Any and all should be held accountable. And I guess I would have to start with the man in the mirror because I can CLEARLY SEE what's going on and not doing a darn thing about it. Well, I do post my facts/thoughts on some blog spots here and there and all I do is get assaulted with the ever-so-popular anti-semetic label, which mind you is starting to lose some of it's bite. I swear, I'm starting to beleive that telling the truth=anti-semetic.
Jersey
PS - And for the record I clearly know the difference between Judaism and Zionism. You'd really be surprised how many G*d fearing Jews despise the Zionists and their brutal quest for world enslavement.
JewcyCraig
Makes sense
Anon, low blow on bringing up my propensity for cursing and stuff. I didn't think I was making a rhetorical point when I called you a crazy bastard. I just kinda thought you were a crazy bastard.
And your nonsensical, unsourced, hearsay "proof" that Stalin was a "Jew" (although again, I'm not even sure what being a 'Jew' means .. Whether it's having blood running in your veins that contains genes inherited from someone who self-identifies as a jew - and if so, how many generations does it take for that blood to be distilled into non-Jewish - or whether it's pinching pennies or what) is not good enough for me. I don't see the point in what you're saying. It looks to me like you have an agenda and you've found a word that can be pinned to it.
I just read something where a woman attested to Stalin's Judaism because his name was "Joseph", which was not a Russian name. GOOD PROOF, ASSHOLES.
If anyone has any evidence that required "thought" or "reason" to put together, it'd be really exciting to hear that.
And don't get all up in my grill cause I used the word "assholes" in this argument. I don't care.
Anonymous
Re:Makes sense
You're funny! I really do enjoy your comments. Okay, let's try this fact. During Stalin's brutal reign, there were tens of thousands of Churches and Mosque's destroyed but Synagogue's were left alone. Hence the cliche "You shall know them by their works!" In regards to "what does being Jewish mean", you bring up a VERY, VERY valid point. Because, being the obvious Mensa-Minded individual you are, I'm sure you are aware of the fact that MOST Jews of European decent are just that, European. Khazarian/Ashkenazi Europeans to be exact. And yet it is they who cry ant-semetic this and ant-semetic that yet they don't have a drop of Semetic blood whatsoever. However, the Palestinians who are literally going through a VERIFIABLE HOLOCAUST have plenty of Semetic blood. Therefore, I would have to say that your last definition of Jews as "penny pinchers" would be most accurate. Fair enough?? You are so funny!!!
Jersey
PS - I don't beleive you left any COMICAL remarks about Frank Collins..oh, I mean Frank Cohen and/or Danile Burros???? C'mon, I know you've got SOMETHING funny to say!!! Ooh, ooh wait, have you noticed that the word Ashkenazi has the word NAZI at the end!!! Wait, this can't be right??? Those crazy, self-hating, Anti-Semetic Jews over at JewsAgainstZionismDOTCOM must be out of their minds!!!!
Anonymous
History Of Gun Control - Hmmm, can anyone see a pattern??
U.S. Gun Control Legislation, 1968-Present
Emanuel Celler
1968: The Gun Control Act of 1968 comes from Rep. Emanuel Celler's House bill H.R. 17735. It expands legislation already attempted by the non-Jewish Sen. Thomas Dodd. America's biggest and most far-reaching gun law came from a Zionist[1].
Howie Metzenbaum
1988: Senate bill S. 1523 is sponsored by Senator Howard Metzenbaum. It proposes legislation turning every violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 into a RICO predicate offense, allowing a gun owner to be charged with federal racketeering offenses.
1988: Senator Metzenbaum co-sponsors a bill -- S. 2180 -- to ban, or limit/restrict, so-called "plastic guns."
Herb Kohl
1990: Senator Herbert Kohl introduces bill S.2070, the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990, which bans gun possession in a school zone. The law will later be struck down in court as unconstitutional.
1993: Senate bill S.653 is sponsored by Sen. Howard Metzenbaum. It bans specific semiautomatic rifles, but also gives the Secretary of the Treasury the power to add any semiautomatic firearm to the list at a later date.
Chuck Schumer
February, 1994: The Brady Law, which requires waiting periods to buy handguns, becomes effective. Senator Metzenbaum wrote the Brady Bill. Metzenbaum sponsored the bill in the Senate. The sponsor of the bill in the House was Rep. Charles Schumer [2].
1994: Senator Metzenbaum introduces S.1878, the Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1994, aka "Brady II." Rep. Schumer sponsored "Brady II" sister legislation [H.R. 1321] in the U.S. House of Representatives.
Dianne Feinstein
September, 1994: The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 goes into effect, including a provision that bans the manufacture and possession of semiautomatic rifles described as "assault weapons." [Note: true assault weapons are fully automatic, not semiautomatic]. That gun-ban provision was authored in the Senate by Senator Dianne Feinstein and authored in the House by Congressman Schumer.
Arlene Specter
1995: Senators Kohl, Specter, Feinstein, Lautenberg and others introduce the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1995, an amended version of the 1990 school-zone law which was struck down in court as being unconstitutional.
Frank Launtenberg
September, 1996: The Lautenberg Domestic Confiscation provision becomes law. It is part of a larger omnibus appropriations bill. It was sponsored by Senator Frank Lautenberg. It bans people convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence from ever owning a gun.
1997: Senate bill S. 54, the Federal Gang Violence Act of 1997, proposes much harsher sentences for people violating minor gun laws, including mandatory prison sentences and forfeiture of property. It was introduced by Dianne Feinstein and Senator [Hatch], among others. It returns the idea of turning every violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 into a RICO predicate offense.
Barbara Boxer
January, 1999: Senator Barbara Boxer introduces bill S.193, the American Handgun Standards Act of 1999.
January, 1999: Senator Kohl introduces bill S.149, the Child Safety Lock Act of 1999. It would to require a child safety lock in connection with transfer of a handgun.
February, 1999: Senator Frank Lautenberg introduces bill S.407, the Stop Gun Trafficking Act of 1999.
February, 1999: Senator Lautenberg introduces S.443, the Gun Show Accountability Act of 1999.
Senator Abe Levin
March, 1999: Senator Lautenberg introduces bill S.560, the Gun Industry Accountability Act of 1999.
March, 1999: Senator Feinstein introduces bill S.594, the Large Capacity Ammunition Magazine Import Ban Act of 1999.
May, 2000: Senate bill S. 2515, Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2000, is submitted by Senators Feinstein, Senator Barbara Boxer, Sen. Lautenberg and Sen. Schumer. It is a plan for a national firearms licensing system.
January, 2001: Senate bill S.25, Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2001, is sponsored by Feinstein, Schumer, and Boxer. It is a nation-wide gun registration plan [apparently there were two versions of that Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act bill].
May, 2003: Senators Feinstein, Schumer, Boxer and others introduce legislation that would reauthorize the 1994 federal assault weapons ban, and, close a loophole in the law that allows large-capacity ammunition magazines to be imported into the U.S. The ban is scheduled to expire in September, 2004.
October, 2003: Senators Feinstein, Lautenberg, Levin [also Jewish] and Schumer co-sponsor bill S.1774, designed to stop the sunset [ending] of the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988.
March, 2005: Senator Lautenberg introduces bill S.645, "to reinstate the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act," in other words, to reinstate the 1994 assault-rifle ban [also known as the "Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994"] which expired in late 2004.
March, 2005: Senator Feinstein introduces bill S.620, "to reinstate the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act," in other words, to reinstate the 1994 assault-rifle ban [also known as the "Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994"] which expired in late 2004.
Mr. Funnyman, c'mon tell me the JOKE about the midget and the panda bear!! C'mon, and please use cuss words!!! Please!!!
Anonymous
Good Jewish boys dead from lack of gun control
Both Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are dead from lack of gun control. How much more must our people suffer from this anti-Semitic so-called freedom? Why should anyone have the right to shout out "free eclairs" at a Richard Simmons seminar? Only a monster like Jimmy Carter would suggest such a thing.
To a Muslim-frei Darfur, shalom
Frenchie
Américan awekening
In France we are realy happy to see that américains awake from the Zionist nigthmare. As Showed, the gun control is the same thing than the Irak control of weapons of mass destruction. when Zionists are sure that no weapons here, they can fight and kill non armed people. they can kill childrens and mothers without a man can respond, besause they take all his guns before.
the real evil is the zionist abomination state of israel. the only problem is the xénophobia and rasicm of the talmud.
The zionists control the weapons of mass destruction of américa, the democrats, the conservatives, the pentagone, the army, the law, the police repression, and now they whant to control the littles guns that american people have...
colapse of economie, and theft of wealth, is near, and they dont want people fight them.
they try to focus on Iran darfur and others things, but the real problem america have, is ZIONIM.
frenchie
France have the same problem
I forget, in france we have now the same problem. zionist president, zionist ministers zionists bankers, zionists lawyers, zionists monkeys.
if we have to fight, french and américan are friend against zionism.
Against israel.
Against Racism.
Against zionist supremacism
Real jews of Thorah, can fight with us, because they now that zionism is mental illness.
and that the third temple of israel is the fantasmatic dream of a criminal people.
Iran wil won ! world will won !
Israel gone vanish from the earth.
frenchie
The controversy of Zion
hey my american friends, read The controversy of Zion
can give you all the tools, to the battle who's coming.
The Jews of Thorah are a Good people.
Zionists are evil.
it's now time to wake up and take bask your power and control your own coutry,
it's Urgent, before this zionists monkeys use you as slaves and make your childrens sexuals objects.
Wake up America.
Wake up ! And don't fight Iran or Darfur, but fight the inside ennemy, the
powerfull ennemy, the Zionists.
Fight Iran will make the price off Gas mutch higher, Fight israel make the Gas gift by the arabs and the whole world.
Iran is not Irak, and Iran is prepared for fight, if you let the zionist attack Iran with the american army, it's normal that iran respond on america.
take your own decision, don't let this monkeys command you to lose all what your fathers have set with fight for you.
Don't sleep more ! Wake up and show them that Americe still living, and that america is not a slaves coutry.
Liberty is not just a word, it's your right, and the right of irak, iran, and
of palestinians.
mmausner
2nd amendment
the original rationales for allowing citizens to bear arms were 1/so that it'd be easy to get a militia together (to fight indians or british etc.) without a big centralized federal thing, and 2/so that the people could make SURE that there was never abuse of power BY that big centralized federal thing.
Of course even by the times of Shay's rebellion in the 1780s and the Whiskey Rebellion in the 1790s, it had become clear that central federal power would always be too strong to ever be deposed by idealistic citizens, no matter how right they might be. It's a good idea-- that the gov't should never be beyond REAL accountability by its citizens-- but unworkable in practice. Whether the reality that has resulted-- of near unlimited gov't control over and reach into our lives, legitimate or not-- is something that resembles the founding fathers' ideals, i will leave to those of you who still live in America.
Meanwhile I live in Israel, where guns are everywhere but random gun violence is extremely rare. I routinely walk out into my living room and see several submachine guns (of soldier friends and roommates), and I never feel the slightest bit unsafe... like Canada, gun ownership is not what causes America's gun violence (as Michael Moore proved in 'Bowling for Columbine")
I'm trying to ignore all the ranting socks here...
Jersey
Re:2nd amendment
mmausner, you bring up very valid points, however, could you enlighten me on the so-called "ranting socks"? Would it be the fact that the Columbine killers were in-fact Jewish or would it be the verifiable "History of Gun Control in America" facts that I presented. Honestly, the thing that makes me most sick is the fact that 95% of Americans can't see what Zionism is doing to this country. I can present quotes directly from America's founding fathers warning Americans of the dangers of the "International Bankers", but this isn't taught in America's schools. Here is another fact that I'm sure the clown JewcyCraig would hate to verify. There are four Presidents in American history that have something very serious in common. Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield and John F. Kennedy. Now, I'm sure you know what happened to 3 out of 4. But I'm not sure if you are aware of the attempted assasination attempt on Jackson. Besides the assasinations/attempts, the thing that these 4 great men had in common was their total disdain for the "International Banking System" and the desrie to dismantle the "International Bankers" grip on the United States. These are NOT MY WORDS!! This comes directly from the memoirs and notes from our AMERICAN Presidents! Period! That's all she wrote, end of story!
JewcyCraig
Literally
I literally have no clue what anyone is talking about. But apparently somewhere along the line someone got the idea that..
a) I support the war on Iran
b) I support Israel
c) I'm okay with anyone fighting anywhere.
Sorry! Too hippie, I guess. I'm just pro-not killing people. You guys do what you wanna do. I'm all about personal attacks here, and I am anti-Jersey and Frenchie because I feel they are making infantile connections between unrelated elements and crying conspiracy. And they sound stupid, too. That may just be an English as a second language thing. I dunno.
And I'm not actually a clown, I just have a big curly afro and a comically red, round nose.
Jersey
Re:Literally
And I quote: "I literally have no clue what anyone is talking about."
That's the first intelligent thing you've said to date! Just stick to jokes, clown.
Jersey
JewcyCraig
Ok
I'll let other people handle the discourse, but you still don't make any sense. You're just chucking around platitudes about conspiracies and things.
Jersey
Re:Ok
See, when you don't have JOKES to say you have nothing to say at all. This post was about Gun Control and I have provided ACTUAL FACTS, via names, dates and places on the people behind gun control in America. Where's the conspiracy theory in that?These same "people" wer behind the Gun Control in Canada, Australia and the UK. Fact: Jews make up 5% of the global population but are 80-90% of the force behind global gun control???? See, you can't debate the truth because IT IS WHAT IT IS! Period! You can't debate the the Frank Collins aka Frank COHEN scam or debate the fact that Daniel Burros, the GRAND Wizzard of the KKK was in-fact Jewish!! All you can do is call me doo-doo head or conspiracy nut or some other comical name because you have no serious method of dealing with the truth. Therefore you result to the only weapon you have. Try and destroy the messenger behind the old "Nut Jub" labeling game. But if anyone with any kind of sense, whether it offends them or n