Scrap the Mechitza

I mean, the majority of shuls have long since gone without a mechitza.  I'm not Orthodox myself, but why begrudge them their custom when there are alternatives?  This article reminds me of the radical Jewish feminist Merle Feld, who wrote some years ago about how, when she was mourning her father, she specifically chose an Orthodox shul in which to daven every day, and repeatedly insisted, contrary to their custom, on reciting kaddish aloud, to the point where they finally let her do so behind a screen.  Given that she's not Orthodox herself, and that in her community as I recall there were other, non-Orthodox shuls to choose from, I can only imagine she chose the Orthodox one not out of personal preference, but in order to agitate and prove a point.

Again, I'm not Orthodox, and I'm not defending the mechitza or the prohibition against hearing a woman's voice.  I'm just saying, as long as the Orthodox don't infringe on our right to worship as we please, we shouldn't infringe on theirs.

If only the Orthodox agreed with your live and let live attitude, Michael. Unfortunately, Orthodox Jews often don't--from the harrassment and proselitizing of the Lubavitch to quieter condemnation from more mainstream Orthodox Jews who condemn me as a bigot for not worshipping as they say I should, or simply refer to me as a gentile.

Even if everyone were willing to live and let live, it certainly makes sense to explain and evaluate our reasoning. In a world where Chabad seems to have taken over all outreach in the Jewish community, it's incumbent on us to make the case publically for an egalitarian, progressive Judaism.

I'm well aware that some Orthodox groups are vocally critical of non-Orthodox Judaism, rabbis and institutions.  But so what?  It's a free country, and they have the right to voice their opinion. Liberal Jews in turn have the right not to listen.   If Chabad or whoever started showing up at your temple and actually disrupting services, or barring people from entering, that would be a different matter.  (Actually, it'd be a matter for the police.)  But they do not do this.  My point stands.   If we're confident and assured enough in our forms of Judaism, we should have a thick enough skin to take Orthodox criticism in stride.

Ironically, the one country in the world where Orthodox groups do place barriers in the way of non-Orthodox Judaism, is Israel.  That situation is due of course to the country's ridiculous proportional representation system which results in Orthodox parties (among others) being able to enforce their demands when they're in a situation to make or break a governmental coalition.  But you know what?  Even with these obstacles, Progressive (Mitkadem) and Conservative (Masorti) Jews still manage to maintain congregations and religious activities.

And the fact remains that Orthodox congregations have the same right we do to practice as they please, so trying to get them to remove their mechitzas or whatever is pointless and intolerant. 

I don't understand this idea that we have to show tolerance toward practices that are in themselves intolerant. I am happy to "tolerate" the right of Orthodox people to avoid driving on Shabbat or to keep strictly kosher. I cannot approve of institutionalized sexism, especially when it has so little religious basis, though it is carried out in the name of the religion that I share.

By the "tolerance" line of reasoning, citizens of Northern states should have kept their big mouths shut instead of complaining about Jim Crow laws in the South. It's a free country, right?

That was me, Aaron Hamburger, author of the article, commenting above. For some reason i can't get my
computer to assign my name to my comments.

This article is stupid, patronizing, and paternalistic. Also, it's stupid.

Dear Mr. Hamburger,

That was a very interesting article. For your next piece, you should write about how the separation of men and women in Mosques should be abolished. For some reason, though, I don't think you're going to do that. I wonder why not?

Could it be, perhaps, that it is not really the separation of men and women that irks you? Could it be that what really gets your goat is that your two brothers, whom you always respected as intelligent people, are now, in your eyes, "right wing extremists"? From the belligerent tone of your article, and the infidel-like passion with which you proclaim your views, it seems like this is likely the case.

Great Article, some excellent points.

Judaism's rituals thrive on the concept of seperation: holy from ordinary, milk from meat, life from death, and here it's men from women.

but in the case of the mehitza, men and women are separated in a dominance-submission scheme. there's no equality. And what you said about women potentially being "distracted" by men's beauty is not even relevant in the way many synagagues are built. They have women in the back looking ahead at or down from the balcony at the men. Also women are forced to experience the men's leadership from the Bima. THe communal experience of going to services would be more honest if we thought of another way to "seperate" within the synagogue, such as those wh are in the mood to pray from those who aren't, or children from adults, or something else.

Nice article, I really enjoyed it.

jessica 

"By the "tolerance" line of reasoning, citizens of Northern states should have kept their big mouths shut instead of complaining about Jim Crow laws in the South."

Sorry, Aaron, that's a flawed analogy.  The Jim Crow laws were imposed by the governments of Southern states, and blacks (or non-blacks) who were unhappy with them had no alternative but to relocate to the Northern states, which would of course have been economically unfeasible for many if not most.

The separation of women and men in Orthodox shuls, while again I share your disagreement with the concept, is not the same thing.  The Orthodox Jews, in the Diaspora, are not the government.  They cannot force all Jews to worship in their synagogues.  Since the nineteenth century (and from the beginning in the U.S.), Western Jews no longer live as non-citizens governed by local, semi-autonomous rabbinical courts with the power to enforce halakhic observance.  There is no comparison between today's Orthodox community and legal, systemic discrimination against blacks.

A postscript:  when I was young, before I had actually gotten to know any Orthodox Jews first-hand, I imagined that Orthodox women felt so, so terribly oppressed by their male overlords.  When I entered university and started hanging out at Hillel, I asked many Orthodox women, when there weren't any Orthodox men within hearing, questions like,  "Don't you wish you could be rabbis?  or cantors?  or do this or that?"  Their answer was invariably,  "No.  Why should we?"  Now you could counter that they've been "brainwashed" or other hyperbolic terms that dilute the meaning of real brainwashing.  I call it their cultural upbringing, just as we egalitarians have ours.  If an Orthodox woman, upon reaching maturity, decides she doesn't like the system in which she was raised, she's free to leave it.  In some cases, particularly with secular-education-poor haredim, there may be sacrifices and hardships ahead, but she still has the choice.  Rabbinical courts no longer have the power to fine or flog dissenters.  And they've never had the power to imprison them.

I maintain my stance:  if we don't like Orthodox Jews lecturing us (and in the Diaspora they do no more than that) on how to practice Judaism, we shouldn't do the same to them.  Tolerance works both ways.  That's all I have to say on this matter, thanks.

Though I'm not a Muslim, I also don't see any point to separating men and women in mosques.  Perhaps if I studied the religion more, I would find the religious basis for the practice.  I am a Jew, however, and I am writing a piece for a website called Jewcy.com, which explains why I might want to address Jewish subjects here.
Also, thanks for the free psychoanalysis, which is worth about as much as I paid for it.  Next time, try debating the ideas presented in the piece rather than attacking its author personally.  

While I disagree with the thesis of his piece, I fully agree with Aaron that personal attacks are uncalled for.

Full disclosure:  Okay, I've been guilty in the past of personal attacks against overtly hostile and antagonistic posters such as Mr. "Jews are not Jews, they're Khazarians," or the several Mr./Ms. "Intermarried Jews or their offspring are not Jews but backstabbers" types, but that's because reasoned rebuttals would be pointless in such cases.  Ideally, I should simply ignore the haters from now on.  Besides being hypocritical, such tit-for-tat responses only encourage them further.

But none of this applies to thought-out, reasoned articles written by people who use their real names.  They deserve thought-out, reasoned responses, not ad hominem cheap shots.

Love the article. My issues with mechitzas is that in my experience they tend to exacerbate the talking problem, especially on the women's side. Shul becomes an unabashed gossip zone, where almost no one is davening. Plus, when the women can see into the men's section there's the added, "Which one of them would I like to marry?" distraction factor. At the synagogue in Dublin the women's balcony was up so high that the women generally felt free to speak at their normal volumes during davening, and frequently poked me, saying, "You know, he's single..." Then there's the couples who meet at the mechitza and pass the baby over it, or just chat for five minutes during davening. It's conspicuous and annoying as hell.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

So I don't really get why people are so offended that they felt the need to attack you personally.
I've never really given the mechitzah a whole lot of thought, though in retrospect I do spend a good amount of time on Friday nights rubbernecking, trying to check out if anyone good looking is behind me.

Talk about a charged way of coming out... going to shul one day and going over to the women's section.
Whew. That would be an interesting conversation.

Michael,

I'm the anonymous who first responded to you. I don't think our author, or any of the commenters, have suggested that we force the Orthodox to cease worshipping in their own manner. However, I would think a website such as Jewcy, focused on exploring contemporary Jewish life and practice, would be precisely the forum for a thoughtful explanation and discussion of our own beliefs and practices. I think we would all welcome a thoughtful response as to the merits of the mechitzah. All you have given us however is a directive not to talk about the issue. To turn your advice back at you, if you don't want to read criticisms of certain Jewish practices, why come to a website where contemporary Jewish practice is discussed?

Unfortunately, I've found the attitude of "fine, do your thing, but don't ever criticize the Orthodox" far too prevelent among the non-Orthodox. Too many of us seem to have accepted the perspective that the Orthodox version of everything is correct and we are simply bad or lazy Jews. We ought to have the intellectual integrity to discuss and evaluate our ideas--if that's such a threat to the Orthodox then their beliefs must be pretty weak.

Finally, while you are right that for the most part rapid packs of Haredim aren't breaking down my doors or the doors of my synagogue, you are wrong that they have no more impact than lecturing us. When we buried my grandmother, we were almost unable to say Kaddish because Orthodox Jews control the cemetery where my relatives are all buried and the Rabbi refused to count the female relatives. Another example: my first experience of Hillel at college--an Ivy League school, not some reactionary bastion--was Kol Nidre. At the very beginning of my first semester, I, a man, went to services with two Jewish friends I had just recently met, both women. I expected to make new friends at services, but also expected to have the comfort of sharing services with the people I had gone there with. Instead, I discovered that the services had been divided, I was separated from my friends and sent off to sit all by myself in a room full of strangers, feeling quite abused.

Those are just two examples of the imposition of the male/female separation on my own life. I am sure other commenters can chime in with their own experiences. Finally, though, even if we granted that the Orthodox are just lecturing and haranguing and no more: by remaining silent and failing to present the other side of the argument, we are allowing the Orthodox to recruit apparently sizable numbers of Jewish youth, and to drive away from Judaism altogether those young Jews who want no part of the archaic sexism and insulism being sold as "Judaism." If we want to preserve the existence of liberal, modern, progressive Judaism, then we have to engage in the conversation, rather than ceding it to the Orthodox. After all, isn't Jewish tradition all about arguing about the right form of practice?

So by all means, defend the mechitza and let's have a respectful, in depth discussion. But don't ask us to just shut up and go away.

Whether or not one agrees with the author's conclusion that the mechitza should be abolished, the most interesting part of the article is the theoretical challenge that queer people make towards Judaism's very gendered order. On the one hand, queer people's identities challenge the mechitza's role of lessening sexual attraction during prayer. But at the same time, a mechitza also reminds a gay man that in Judaism he still has the privileges and responsibilities of being a Jewish man. In the book Queer Jews, two transgender authors write about the mechitza at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. For one of them, an F-to-M transgender person, the mechitza was liberating, because it confirmed his new gender identity as a Jewish man. For the other, who was genderqueer and therefore more complicated in terms of gender identity, the mechitza was oppressive in that it forced this person to choose sides. One would not want the mechitza abolished; the other would, and both are queer.
Thanks to the author for forcing us to question Judaism's gendered order.
David Shneer

For 90+ percent of us, gender is not fuzzy and the boundaries are much clearer than your article proclaims.

A mechitza would be effective for the majority of us who identify clearly with our gender...the most recent sex survey points out that homosexual behavior is limited to one percent of the population.

Kinsey [whom you credit as seeing sexuality as "fluid"] incorrectly posited homosexuals as making up 10 percent of the population. His data did not stand the test of time; his methodology [using pornographic magazines to gather subjects] was severely compromised.

The mechitza come out of a tradition which separates sexuality from public worship. While I don't pray in a synagogue with a mechitza, the notion is still a sound one.

Personally, I've always thought the real purpose of the mechitza was to segregate the sexes so men and women could take stock of their choices more easily (gay people excepted). Look over the mechitza and see all the men (or women) at once, easily compare eligible singles (men without tallit, women without hats). At least this is how it works in synagogues where the mechitza is low enough to see over it, which it is in most Modern Orthodox congregations, where young people get to choose their spouses for themselves. (In synagogues where the women's section is in a balcony, women obviously have an unfair advantage: not being able to hear the service below, they have nothing else to do but survey the man-market below them.) It makes sense that in more right-wing communities, where marriage-pairings are left to matchmakers, the mechitzas are higher and denser, so there's no need for laymen to be able to see all their options at once anyway!

YOU MADE A LOT OF FRIENDS WITH THIS ARTICLE.
ALL WASTED WORDS AND WASTED FRIENDS

SO MANY JEWS LOST TO THEIR OWN EGOS

YOU FEEL WONDERFUL

SO DO I FEEL WONDERFUL
BECAUSE YOU ARE SEPARATED FROM ME,

YOU WOULD MAKE EVEN MORE FRIENDS IF YOU SAID THAT YOU REJECT TORAH ENTIRELY

BUT YOU ARE SMARTER THAN 'GD'
YOU CHOOSING YOUR NEW RELIGION
JEUS DID THAT, REFORM DID THAT CONSERVATIVE DID THAT
AND NOW WE WILL HAVE THE HAMBURGER RELIGION.

I AM TOLD TO PRAY FOR YOU ..
YOU HAVE YOURSELF, YOU DONT NEED ME
ONE DAY YOU WILL NEED 'GD' THOUGH

THANK YOU,
DACON9

eligible singles (men without tallit, women without hats)

Really? unmarried Orthodox Jews don't wear tallit when they pray? I have never encountered this--I don't believe I have ever seen Orthodox Jew preying without a tallis. I thought Orthodox Jews began wearing a tallis when they turned 13, as do Conservative Jews. Is this a sephardic tradition?

I am intrigued.

Ashkenazi Orthodox men typically wear tzitzit katan from the time of their bar mitzvah, but they don't wear a tallis over their shirts until they get married. Thus, at Orthodox shuls you can usually tell which of the men are single by checking out which of the men are wearing tallises over their suits. Most sephardim don't hold by this custom, and many sephardic men begin wearing a regular tallis from their bar mitzvah on.

It is a very handy hint as to who's available and who isn't.

You write "I am happy to 'tolerate' the right of Orthodox people to avoid driving on Shabbat or to keep strictly kosher." Keeping Kosher, observing Shabbat are not rights, they are religious obligations. We Americans are not too keen on being told we are obligated to do anything (look how few of us vote) but Judaism is a religion of obligations and not rights.

As for the issue of the mechitza, I find that, in general, synagogues with mechitzas are preferable to me (a Conservative Jew.) I am more comfortable in them and I find that I have a higher sense of spirituality in them.

I had never prayed in a shul with a mechitza before spending a sabbatical year in Jerusalem, and in the US I still don't generally favor one. I was initially repelled by the separation of the family unit and the female members of my family (I'm the only male) initially saw sexism root and branch. I do agree with Hamburger's counters to the 'pro-mechitza' arguments he sets out. But I personally find, sometimes, that the enforced separation from my normal neighbors - that is - my family - 1) increases my own attentiveness to the shul experience, rather than focusing on finding kleenex or whatever for a family member, and 2) makes me more aware of the spiritual experience of my new neighbors in prayer, who I usually don't know well but sometimes evolve a shared if transient bond through being a congregation of single units bent on the saame task. For those commenters who find that their own neighbors are freed to gossip or fool around when they are split by gender from their family, sounds like I wouldn't like that either - but I can say that it can work to enhance a prayer experience also. Although I regret that the separation is done along gender lines, a little shaking up from the norm (for those of us who have families) isn't necessarily bad.

There are better solutions to this problem. Some people like mechitzot, others don't. Some think that it is required, others think that its wrong to seperate people. Nu what do we do? We could split the Jewish community into smaller groups of angry seperatists, or (doodoodoo!) we could doven with a trichetzah. Put two mechitzahs, one seperating people who identify as female who don't want to doven with people who identify as male on one side, non gendered space in the middle and a place for people who identify as male, but don't want to doven with people who identify as female on the other side. Trichetzah, fits everyone's needs (except that it validates that there are other poeple who have strong beliefs). Its been something we have done at Jews in the Woods for years and has been written up in hilchot pluralism on ma rabu (http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2006/04/hilchot-pluralism-part-iii-macroscop...). No need to fight guys.

While I do believe that temples should be allowed to function as they want, these are definitely points that should be taken into account when they make their decisions of mechitza or no mexhitza. I identify as bisexual, and I know that I find myself just as distracted by women in temple as by men. With the world recognizing the spectrum of sexuality, it makes sense to consider it when following the spirits of the laws.

While I will admit I did not quite finish reading the whole article or all of the comments, it seems to me that you missed one extremely important point. The Orthodox are not looking at a mechitza from a homosexual perspective. Obviously if you are gay, you might be distracted by being around other men (an argument which is highly detrimental to gay rights, but I will tolerate your point there), but if you are heterosexual then having a gay person next to you would hardly distract you; whereas, an attractive person of the opposite sex might distract you. If you are gay and orthodox, then there is a bigger contradiction in your practice than merely sitting among any one group of people. While I do not advocate that position, it is a reality. Thus, if you want to be gay and orthodox, dealing with the separation of men and women, will not likely be the biggest conflict you face.

I was raised in a Conservative shul & now attend everything from Reform to Orthodox services, and I honestly have more problems with distraction at the Ortho services than anywhere else. First of all, what Tamar says is exactly right - both the men's & women's sections frequently descend into gossip, and the couples who meet at the mechitza to pass babies or discuss the kidush drive me insane. Second, am I the only person who can sit through a service without being sexually distracted by friends of any gender? I mean good heavens - sequester the teenagers in their own individual mechitzas if you have to, but I'm an adult who is there to daven - don't force me to sit somewhere where I can't hear/see the rabbi/cantor. For those of us who love the traditional liturgy but aren't so thrilled with the more archaic rules, this can be a difficult pill to swallow.

Marisa Elana James

Firstly I want to say I go to shul every Friday night, Saturday morning an and Saturday afternoon and evening. So I am basing my opinion on a long standing personal experience. I am a woman, I belong to an orthodox
shul and I am a FEMINIST. I do like the mechitzah for many reasons. I
would definitely be distraced by my fiance if I were to be davening right beside him, I go to shul to daven not to schmooze. I really like and
treasure my weekly experience of davening with a group of only women. My
lesbian friends say they enjoy it as well because they don't have people
looking at them wondering where their "husband" is. I don't sit with
friends, I sit by myself to daven and focus on having my full shabbos
experience. As for people who are transexuals or transgendered I fully
believe that decision is up to them to choose where they want to sit, as
is my decision to belong to an orthodox shul and maintain my beleif in
mechitzah, no one is forcing anyone- it says in the chumash G-d made man
and woman in his image- if I am in G-d's image then there is no way I
can be relegated to any inferior status, and I don't feel that I am...
The diverse freedom of choice in regards to observance and practice
within Judaism is so vast, that is one of the reasons I love Judasim,
and I CHOOSE mechitzah, you can CHOOSE not.

So.

Your argument assumes that the minyan contains men who are distracted by the beauty of other men, and women who are distracted by the beauty of other women to the point that their prayers are significantly lacking in the concentration required to have a conversation with G-d.
Ergo, the mechitza, you, say, designed for the purpose of removing that distraction by seperating the sexes is obsolete.

Do you dispute that most men and women are heterosexual? Do you think that everyone has an urgent distracting desire for their own sex like you? As most males are indisputably heterosexual, and as it is difficult for a hot-blooded heterosexual male to concentrate when a desirable (quantified only in the eye of the beholder)female walks into the room, and (for a run-on sentence), as most females are heterosexual, and for some odd reason feel the need to look their stunning best and preen if males are about, thus disturbing their prayers, how can you refute the obvious benefit of seperating the males from the females during a time when their concentration and devotion needs to be focused upon only one task at hand? A time when one must put aside their own selfish concerns to show their gratitude and devotion (as in any relationship) to the one who bestows everything good in their lives.

Because you, or others in the very much minority like you have a problem concentrating with others, G-d (and lihavdil, you)would be better served if you prayed in the privacy of your own home. That way, the overwhelming majority would benefit from the mechitza, and you would benefit from undistracted prayer in the comforts and privacy of your own home. Certainly you would not debate that prayers are not a time for socializing. Whatever your sexual preference, prayers are for prayer. Socializing with G-d is the only close interaction intended, required or permitted in a synagogue. Halacha does not even permit weddings or funerals in a bet haknesset in their celebration or mourning of self.

The only reason I can see demanding the abolition of the mechitza because it does not suit you, is a desire to scream "I'm here! See me! I'm not like you and I want you to let me in, and I'll do something to get your attention! THEN you'll see me!"

The mechitza works for more than most Jews. It works for me. It seems to work for anyone concentrating on their prayers around me. Those that are not concentrating are generally dealing with a kid, walked in late, saw their friend and decided to grab a quick conversation since they haven't seen each other all week, and won't be able to talk until after prayers (when the urge to talk suddenly disappears). It's the guys sitting next to the mechitza, or the gals peeking through the curtains who seem to have the most trouble concentrating on the one sole intended purpose for their visit to the synagogue - to pray. If the system works for heterosexual males, but doesn't work for individuals like you, it doesn't mean the system needs to be discarded. It means that you need a solution.

Daven at home.

JB

personally, i'm not bothered by the mechitza. i went to an Orthodox shul for most of my life even though i was raised Conservative. honestly, the kids at my shul were stuck-up bitches and assholes so having the mechitza was actually a good thing because i didn't have to talk to any of them. i would sit with my mother and sister as close to the door as possible so we could leave as soon as services were over. they also were not fond of the majority of shul attendees. that could be why we rarely went once i became a Bat Mitzvah. too many gossiping yentas. shul is supposed to be a place for worshipping, not talking s**t about other people.

i've been to Reform and Conservative shuls as well, and sometimes it can be an advantage or disadvantage to sit with the opposite sex. these days, i don't belong to one specific congregation. if i have to sit separate from the men, i will. if not, that's ok too. to me, it doesn't matter if there is a mechitza as long as the other people in attendance aren't talking over the Rabbi.

What is the basis for your statement that the mechitza has "little religious basis"? ("cannot approve of institutionalized sexism, especially when it has so little religious basis, though it is carried out in the name of the religion that I share)

I have been on both sides. I grew up very reform and have become traditional. I hesitate to call myself part of any movement. That being said, there is a myth that reform and secular Jews are somehow tolerant of other views. They often accuse orthodox Jews of being intolerant sexist, holier-than-thou, etc. First, these accusations are for the most part misguided. Second, these attitudes show that liberal jews (reform and secular) SHOULD grant orthodox/traditional Jews with the same level of respect and tolerance they wish to receive for their practices.

The article claims there is no religious basis for the mechitza. Actually there is. I don't know what Orthodox Rabbi the author spoke with, but it's not simply that it's in the Talmud and G-d told the Rabbis to write the Talmud that way (I've personally never encountered any Orthodox Rabbi who would offer such shallow reasoning for anything.) The idea of mechitza, or simply separation, goes back to the Temple in Jerusalem. There is literary, religious and archaeological evidence that there was a women's section (actually there were several different sections, representing several kinds of separation). After the destruction of the Temple, synagogues were supposed to, in certain ways, represent a little piece of the Temple. Much of our mode of current worship comes, albeit in some cases indirectly, from what took place in the Temple (with prayer taking the place of sacrifice, a great relief for many). The mechitza is no exception. I would encourage the author to do a little more research on this before writing an article condemning a practice that stretches back thousands of years and that still has significant spiritual meaning for many people today. Also, I agree with previous posters who have talked about liberal Jewish intolerance. "Tolerance" cannot simply mean that Orthodox/traditional Jews are supposed to be more accepting of everyone to the left of them, whether they believe their practices comport with Jewish law or not. True tolerance, true pluralism, must also mean that those on the left seek to understand and respect the practices of those on the right, not just condemn them in the name of openmindedness.

Go daven at home? Oh, so us queers and our 'perversions' aren't allowed in a synagogue? Great tolerance there, buster. ;)

Okay, so I took the comments out of context, but that's not unlike what alot of other comments on here have done. All in all, it seems as if the author was just questioning the basis of having a Mechitza, and ultimately proposes its not very useful. What are the orthodox arguments for having the Mechitza, what are the more liberal arguments for not having one? Does one 'hold more water' then the other? Oh, and following the line of logic that 'if one doesn't like it, then but-out,'...Well, if you don't like reading an article, from a liberal perspective about scraping the Mechitza...

Also, alot of commentators, so far, have made the assumption that homosexuals only make up 1% of the total population. Yes, a survey may have found this percentage from a sample of the population: but surveys depend entirely on the respondents' veracity. In other words, a closted homosexual or bisexual man/woman could have lied for a variety of reasons. Plus, one would have to actually see the sampling method for such a survey to determine if it was actually random. I mean, a sexuality survey done in the Castro district of San Fransico and done in a small town would turn up very different results.

Someone asked: "What are the orthodox arguments for having the Mechitza" Someone else asked "What is the basis for your statement that the mechitza has "little religious basis"? ("cannot approve of institutionalized sexism, especially when it has so little religious basis, though it is carried out in the name of the religion that I share"

I can understand these questions for the non orthodox communities--i.e., what is its meaning; if I don't like that answer I'll drop it. For the orthodox though, the question is less important. While it's intellectually interesting and religiously informative to discuss the meaning of mitzvos, at the end of the day, the orthodox argument for the Mechitza is that it is required by Halachah. Right?

"Also, alot of commentators, so far, have made the assumption that homosexuals only make up 1% of the total population. Yes, a survey may have found this percentage from a sample of the population"

There is some information at http://volokh.com/

"What Fraction of the Population is Gay or Lesbian? This question comes up every so often, so I thought I'd pass along what seems to be the best data out there -- from Laumann et al., The Social Organization of Sexuality 311 (1994)" Good statistics, to the extent statistics matter.....

Really, let's just be done with them. In their present incarnations, most are mostly cheap imitations of churches or community centers, led by ignoramuses who provide 3rd rate pastoral care, rather than the centers of Jewish learning that they once were.

As for the mekhitsa, it seems that it is only worthwhile to keep if the divide is between those who want to daven and those who want a quick shag.  

Having stumbled across the article I feel so much better to know I am not the only one to have thought about this, from this perspective.

During a discussion with friends about the merits of Orthodox Judaism as opposed to Progressive (Reform) or Conservative I first stumbled across this issue.

Having grown up in and never been comfortable in an Secular-Orthodox environment (I know its a bit of a contradiction) I made the conscious decision to move to the Reform movement, where I am very happily and spiritually fulfilled.

During this said discussion I realised that I am in fact guilty of commiting in Reform shul exactly what the mechitza is set to prevent. I enjoy going to shule on chaggim to check out the good looking Jewish men, in their suits and ties. Essentially I am ok with this and I think God forgives me because I am just a weak soul when it comes to this issue, but on the flipside, I asserted to my friends, perhaps we need to build me a mechitza from the men...

Go figure..

Nonetheless, my summation is as such:

Mechitza boo
Men and Women sitting together yay
Orthodox Judaism out of date, out of touch and certainly not egalitarian

shabbat shalom

G--------------d....if someone put up one in the buses and subways, that would corral all the self-absorbed cellphone fembots in one place and I could actually do some serious reading/daydreaming/snoozing. I can't take one more minute of their non-stop chatter! Mechitza Now!

Let me start off by saying I'm reform. I was just in Jerusalem. I went to the Kotel several times while I was there in my 6 week stay. The Orthodox have been seperating men and women like milk and meat for years and years and years. It might be an impossible barrier to break. What got me thinking was the eqaulity of the portion of the Kotel the women got versus the men. The women were crammed up to the point of spilling into the plaza while the men had room to spare. If they are going to divide it, at least make it a little closer to equal portions.

-Born in the J-code, embedded in my blood

ah, scrap the whole idea of minyan, scrap the idea of Jews  praying in  shul/synagogue...

these are all 'b'diavad" ideas (after-the-fact, or not ideal); it's not how Judaism is supposed to work-- mechitza or not.  In fact, one can plausibly reexamine the whole idea of prayer keneged korbanot (in place of sacrifices...)

Tomorrow is Tisha'B'Av.  It's time to rebuild the temple.  That's where it's really supposed to be at.  Hundreds of thousands of Jews thronging to the undisputed center of world spirituality, three times a year, for massive festivals-- barbeques, improv music, party hard.  That's what it's supposed to look like.  And every day a few more barbeques.  Priesthood instead of rabbis.  Arguably it's the rabbis, not the rov ha 'am, that are afraid of really rebuilding Judaism the way it's supposed to be; the rabbis, not the people, are the ones guilty of "chet ha meraglim" (sin of the spies). 

It's been forty years since we reconquered Jerusaelm-- yet were afraid to come back to the temple mount.  Enough already.  May this Tisha B'Av be the last.

easy fast...

if ur gay then u pretty much deny the torah
so y does it matter where u sit
ur in a reform shul where anything goes!
did any1 ever tell u the torah works that if u hav to hold all of the torah, and if u dont the rest doeasnt matter
and if ur gay first realize ur stupid idea of being gay isnt true
and then try to be orthodox b/c it actually givs life meaning
and dude ur stupid, ur not gay

Aaron,

While all your points are valid and ring true to me, there's at least one good reason why a mechitza makes sense. Shul is a time to be emotional -- to try and connect the heart and the soul. Unfortunately, the vast majority of men do not share their emotional experiences, or emotions period, with each other under typical circumstances. When the Orthodox (which I am, having grown up strictly observant, then lapsed, and now having returned to the fold) men sit together, so many of the taboos they have between each other fall away; within the framework of praying, the transference of love from one "man to his friend" is accomplished. This idea is central to Judaism, and one that might get lost if the sexes mix; men would return to the default emotional connections couples generally create between themselves.

Regarding LGBT(and H, as you mentioned) members of the Orthodox community, certainly an acceptable and proper place for them has not been found -- but that is beside the point of mechitza...that's a problem across the board.

Best,

Nachshon

It would appear that like your identity your understanding of the concept of satire in literature is oh, so sorely lacking.

Why the need to be so ascerbic and so outraged and so condescending?

A discussion is one thing, however, a rant leads me to believe that the

anger has an origin far removed from a piece of curtain in a shul.