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Shomer Negiah in the City |
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| Every Orthodox boy must answer the question: "Am I ready to party?" | |
 by Matthue Roth, January 11, 2008 |
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It was the summer I left San Francisco. I’d gotten a book deal, gotten hardcore about this whole Orthodox thing, and hitched a ride with my best friend’s ex-girlfriend and her dog to New York City. Suddenly I lived in a city of gorgeous, untouchable Orthodox girls who knew more about Judaism than I even suspected there was to know, who never looked me in the eye, who lived in lavish penthouse apartments in neighborhoods where I couldn’t even afford to eat.
Over the course of the summer, I followed Yirmi and Benji, my Jewish socialite friends, to one-dollar drink nights and concerts where they seemed to know everyone and everyone seemed to be Orthodox. Every time I turned around, I caught sight of a guy in a yarmulke. It was like the dream in Being John Malkovitch where everyone has John Malkovitch’s face, even the grandmothers and the hot girls in tight dresses. In my case, though, it wasn’t the grandmothers and the girls, but jocks and investment bankers in casual Friday khakis. It was half brilliant fantasy—I’m not the only one!—and half nightmare, because even if we had Orthodox Judaism in common, that didn’t necessarily mean they were cool people, or even that they had anything interesting to say. In fact, most of them liked to talk about their day jobs. Wasn’t this what I moved to San Francisco to get away from?
But I needed to go to these lame parties with lame buffets and even lamer MC’s. I needed to give up the too-cool game, the too-hip game, the I-don’t-need-a-salary-and-health-care-cause-I’m-a-professional-poet game. I needed to do these things because I’d decided that I was Ready To Date.
Hey party people: Finding love at the Matzah Ball
Admitting to yourself that you are Ready To Date is a pretty big deal among Orthodox Jews because dating is a short step away from getting married, settling down, and pumping out 27,000 babies. It’s also a big deal because it means deciding whether or nor you’re shomer negiah.
Shomer negiah is one of those things that define us as Orthodox Jews, and as human beings. Literally, the words shomer negiah mean “a guard of your touch.” If you are a boy, you don’t touch girls; and if you’re a girl, you don’t touch boys. I had just spent the last three years living in San Francisco and not being shomer. To be in New York—with its miles of kosher restaurants and Hasidim who not only knew how to play this game, but actually played it—felt like my ultimate calling. You can play Orthodox Judaism in your backyard, but this was the major league.
Being so out of contact with the mainstream Orthodox world, I didn’t realize that there were Orthodox people who followed every law except for that one. Yet my first night in New York, I heard my roommate having his way—loudly, pronouncedly, and at great length—with one (if not two) Hasidic girls in the next room over. I covered my head with a pillow, squeezed my eyes shut, and started humming to myself the Minor Threat song “Straight Edge,” which had been my anthem ever since I learned that being a virgin could be a political choice, and that there was a whole punk movement to back me up. But…it was out there. And I could have it.
One night, Yirmi and Benji and I were out at another nightclub or meeting or salon of Young Jewish Professionals and my eyes were glued to the doors, hoping for some big-bearded rabbi to walk in, his coat the color of penguin wings and his eyes like stars, and teach me the real secrets of the universe, why the world rotates east to west and how even shit was part of G-d’s creation.
Instead, prerecorded hip-hop samples blasted over a PA system and this short, balding Jewish dude in a gold chain walked in. “What’s up, Upper West Side,” he crooned into a mic. “Are you ready to parrrrtay?”
We went home that night as an entourage, seven of us to the two-room flat where they lived: me, Yirmi, Benji, and four girls who we’d managed to pick up on the way. At first I pegged them for being recently Orthodox, just like me, because they wore street clothes and didn’t talk in Torah talk, but someone said something in Yiddish, and everyone laughed but me. Then I thought they were underage, but someone said that they had their own apartment.
And, like a flash, Benji’s arm was around one of the girls and then Yirmi’s arms was around two more of the girls and I retreated into my own head, asking myself where I was going and what kind of life was I sinking myself into, and if these were the people I was trying to be like, well then, what were they trying to be like?
Kosher tongue: Not just something you'd find in the deli
I was in my head for barely five minutes, we were less than a block down the street, and already Yirmi was brushing his nose up against one girl’s nose, physically parting her lips with his fingers, getting them loose and open and ready to stick his tongue in. A plane soared low overhead. Benji broke free of his girl, threw his arms in the air and spun around and crooned, spontaneously, in the style of that M.C. from that night: “Are you ready to parrrrtay?”
They were so not ready to party. They were ready to explode, loaded with liquor and energy, and, upon reaching home, they were ready to collapse. Yirmi and Benji and their Hasidic-but-with-a-sex-drive girl-space-friends fell asleep all over the room—on the couches, on the floor, and in their beds. Yirmi, the last one standing, did not seem to mind. He excused himself, slipped under his cover between two girls, one of whom grunted, already half-asleep. The other girl licked his ear.
From his mountain of pillows, eyes half-lidded, he grinned at me. He looked straight at me as the girl licked his ear, as her impossibly long Hasidic tongue slithered around his weirdly straight earlobe, as if it was a private joke between he and I, a joke that I, by virtue of having lived in San Francisco, would immediately understand and appreciate. A look that, if it had been any more loaded, would have been an invitation to an orgy, as if he was asking: Are you down?
And I would have totally gotten down with it, too, back in the old days, between when I decided to be Orthodox and when I decided to take being Orthodox seriously. Now that I was following the rules, what did it mean if the people around me were ignoring them? Was I down? I didn’t know.
Makes the heart grow fonder: Abstinence
There was a paradox involved in being openly shomer negiah. If you were shomer, you could date everyone, whether they were shomer negiah or not (although, if one person was and one wasn’t, chances were, you were either going to get married or break up pretty fast.) But if you weren’t, and you did hook up with girls, then you were off-limits to anyone on the other side of the fence. Untouchable. Dirty. It was like you weren’t even Orthodox. Playing the odds, it was better to be shomer negiah. That way, you could date everyone.
It wasn’t like I hadn’t tried to date when I was in New York. One night, I answered an Internet ad. My friend Jerrica was going over Craigslist, reading the girls-who-like-boys personal ads, which he felt totally giddy and guilt-free about reading, since he was gay. There was one that reminded him of me—Did You Say Modeh Ani Every Morning, And Do You Miss It?—and he double-dared me to answer it.
So I did. And we made plans. We met up at a subway station, jumped on at Times Square, rode to the last stop before Brooklyn. We walked over the bridge, looked down over the water like we were walking directly on it, and followed its spidery descent until we were on a narrow path in the middle of cross-town traffic. She told me her story: she’d grown up Orthodox, the daughter of a rabbi. She’d learned everything forwards and backwards, could speak Yiddish fluently and read a Gemara better than I ever wished I could; but she could never believe any of it. She majored in science, because she said the Torah couldn’t agree with science. She moved to this city to get away from her family.
“New York?” I said. “You moved to New York to get away from Jews?”
She laughed. She liked the idea that I replied to her ad, an ad that she was originally afraid would sound too much like a fetish-hunter. I asked her, “What makes you think this isn’t a fetish?” She smiled at me like I’d just given her permission for something.
We kept walking. It got late, and we’d managed to walk halfway down the side of Brooklyn, to the front door of her apartment. She hesitated there, and so did I, watching her fidget with the bottom hem of her skirt, which was a few dangerous inches above her knee.
And then her mouth opened, and the question that—like Can I hold that for you? or Want some pizza?—was so rhetorical as to not need an answer, to not even need to be asked, she said to me: “Do you want to come upstairs?”
And, before I knew what the words lined up in my head were, before I could even sort the words in order or realize what they meant, my reply came tumbling out:
“No.”
And that was it. We deflated, both of us, into little shriveled-up shards of balloons. We wisped, now no more than stretched-out rubber, having fulfilled our purpose, our usefulness in each other’s lives having been outlived, and felt the wind picking up, felt ourselves being blown in opposite directions down the street.
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Matthue Roth is the author, most recently, of Losers, as well as the novels Never Mind the Goldbergs and Candy in Action and the memoir Yom Kippur |
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Brian
"If someone says they're modern orthodox, the 'modern' means they fuck."
Matthue Roth
See, that's exactly what my editor told me -- when you move to New York, the first thing you need to do is find a translator.
--
.:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:.
Candy in Action
a novel by Matthue Roth
supermodels. kung fu. and a free mp3 soundtrack....
MaxKohanzad
Hey Matthue! I liked your little peice - but the problem is that "Shomer Negiah" isn't really part of Judaism. - I have actually written something about this previously on some other site - so i'll try and find it and get it to you - so that you can Halachicly stop this Shomer Negiah stuff.
MaxKohanzad
Lies we have been feed & other issues.
I was pretty much a Chassidisher Bocha, ok so I wasn’t in Yeshiva at the time, but was happy within myself and happy with my Yiddishkite, I had found peace, meaning and purpose, and not in any stupid happy-clappy Baal Teshuvah way, but via a deeply serious intellectual and ongoing meditation on the Rebbe Rashub’s famous mimor Hechaltzu. I felt in tune with life, I found love within myself, and I felt a love for all of life, and I used to smile a lot. And it seems people aren’t happy if other people are happy, they would like everyone to join in their misery, and it didn’t take much for them to knock me off my little pink floating cloud.
I remember how heart broken I felt, when I discovered that there was a roomer about me having a ‘girl friend’, at the time I obviously didn’t have a girl friend and in fact found it almost impossible to even make eye contact with a girl, let alone actually speak to her, or convince her to be my girlfriend! Anyway I was troubled by this allegation, and when a well meaning member of the community took me aside and asked me about this roomer, and told me that ‘its not something we do in this community’ I didn’t say anything, I was so shocked that I just said that I’d sort it out, (implying that I’d stop seeing this imaginary girlfriend) but in my own mind I made a cheshbon, if there is such a rumour, then there must be a reason, maybe it was because I’d listened and actually enjoyed some ‘kol ishah’ on the radio, or that I had to be even stricter with myself with regards to the mikva avera, either way I had my bases covered, and went on my way.
But that incident, ignited in me, a rage, a burning hate for everything that this community was supposed to be representing, this was not just one or two imaginative housewives, everyone assumed that it must have been true, ‘look at the proof, he’s always smiling!’ I spoke to the Dyan, and he said that 'you know there’s nothing wrong with having a girlfriend,’ but I dismissed this man, and what he said as firstly being so estranged from the reality of my life as a Chassidisher Bocha, that it made absolutely no sense what so ever, I hadn’t even spoken to a girl in years, and then it was probably only to ask for the salt!
Secondly he was probably just trying to make me feel relaxed enough to admit that I did have a girlfriend! And I was beginning to become quite pissed off. Why couldn’t they just leave me alone? This example of loshen hora, made me realise that it does kill, and it made me angry enough to want to kill, and that's when it started, it was just small at first, just sparked by this incident, but that flame, that consuming flame of cynicism slowly began to grow. Was this my reward for giving up any chance of normal life? For people to spread false roomers about me? I hated the community that had fabricated such lies, that had drawn my innocent soul into its flock, only to belittle anything I may have done or accomplished within myself. Being Happy was easy as long as people weren’t talking lies about you, it made me cry to think of the absurdity of it all. This religious community was actually just very human very petty and miserable, and didn’t think people could actually be happy without having to go against its own principles. It showed me something was wrong, the community itself was not living by the values it represented, so I moved out of that area for a while and tried to forget about what had happened, which was nothing, except loshen horah.
Years went by, and I still didn’t really talk to girls, and found it almost impossible to make eye contact, but that apart, I still felt happy and comfortable with myself. As things development, I soon realised that this phenomenon, which I had witnessed wasn’t limited to one community, but was prevalent in most. This time around it wasn’t loshen horah, but rather ignorance and apathy, over those years I had submerged myself in the issues of Moshiach and Geula, and again not in a superficial fashion, however, I now realised that no one else knew what I was talking about, this realisation, was the same feeling I had had a few years before, the realisation that the people the community where very far from the teachings they taught. It was a painful realisation one that would eventually make me question my identity with such communities and one day with the entire religious Jewish world, but that’s another story for another time.
What I want to talk about now is sex. And as my mother asked me, when she saw ‘sex & sexuality’ on my website a few years ago, ‘What do you know about sex and sexuality?’ implying you haven’t even had sex, and now your gonna write about it? But as anyone knows the bible is full of sex, and stories of sexual relationships and escapades. And I had done some research and just wanted to share that with you, the reader.
I feel I must first preface this with a story I was told while in yeshiva, about a man that had a secretary whom he had an affair with, and went to see his Rebbe to find a path for repentance and tikkun of this act. The man told his Rebbe all the details, explaining that the secretary was Jewish, single and had gone to the mikvah prier to their secret rendezvous, to which the Rebbe say, ‘there is no tikkun, that will help you for this' which was explained to us in yeshivah to mean that there is no tikkun for an intentional sin, but only for involuntary or accidental sins, sins of passion. And that was the message we where taught.
Some years later while I myself was teaching Chassidus in a Lubavitch ‘yeshivah’ I joined a class given by Rabbi Dr, Dovid Fink who is supposed to be quite well known in areas of hallacha and medicine/medical science. Anyway one of his lectures was on a strange idea that hadn’t really come across in any detail, that of the ‘laws of Pelegesh’ that is ‘Concubines’. Now we all know, Judaism forbids sex before or outside of marriage, right? And that the Rabbi have forbidden young unmarried women from going to mikvah? Right? That you could only have one wife? So the idea of Pelegesh in this day and age seemed quite silly and irrelevant, but I went along anyway because I like his teaching style and felt he was a nice guy, unlike some of the other Rabbis there at the time. Anyway, getting to the point, what I learnt blew my mind away! And I’ll tell you in short what I learnt:
a Pelegesh is a:
1.Jewish woman
2. Who keeps the ‘Laws of purity’ (as would a married woman)
3. Has made a Halachic Vow to be monogamous to her chosen spouse
4. Does not live or move into the house of that spouse, but has her own accommodation
5.a. Is not married Under the Chuppa (or engaged) or any other way
5.b. Is not bound by any legal or monetary contract to her spouse
6. Does not have a history of ‘sleeping around’
7. She may have children from her spouse and they are Not considered illegitimate
8. If she wished to end the relationship, all she has to do is break her vow (a Halachic problem? –but not
as big as aguna!)
9. Once she has broken her vow she is forbidden to return to her previous spouse/s
The only Poisek to categorically forbid a pelegesh is the Rambam (Sefardi),
however, all of the other Ashkenazi Poiskim see nothing wrong with pelegshim. Moreover, puskin that a (Ashkenazi) man is allowed up to four peleshim (at one time, not at the same time ;-) but only one wife, where as Rambam doesn’t allow ordinary men (only kings) pelegshim, however, does allow them up to four wives (this would be the accepted law amongst the Sefardim).
For those of you that may not be able to put two and two together, let me help you, it turns out, as long as you are (Ashkenazi and) are entering a relationship with long-term commitments with a single Jewish women, and she goes to the mikvah or equivalent/river/sea or b’dieved swimming pool/30min shower (see Reb Moshe Fienshtine?) then its ok! Premarital sex is fine! If you’re a man even extra-marital sex is fine as long as its not just a one-night-stand, but a commitment to a real long-term relationship.
This is of course a male dominated law, it is men that are allow multiple partners, and women who have to promise to be monogamous.
But on the other hand it is the woman who is in charge of this relationship, if she chooses to brake her vow, that’s the end of the relationship, and there are no avenues back as far as I'm aware.
Now all this having been said certain things start to make sense, when the Dyan said having a girl friend was ok, and now the story about the man who had an affair makes sense as well, if you remember his Rebbe told him there was ‘not tikkun for such an act!’ the reason now seems obvious, if she went to mikvah, then what’s the problem? there is no problem there is no sin, and thus no tikkun! And no need for tikkun!
My dear friends, this is not necessarily a blank check to go screwing around whomever and wherever you like, but rather, a view of a halachick issue that has been kept quiet for a long time, and that you may want to think about. May all your relationships be loving, caring, respectful, long term and happy, as well as exciting of course!
Maayan
I really enjoyed the topic of this article and find it interesting to read about Jews struggling to find their own personal level of Judaism. I think it is admirable of you to have found the strength to have chosen this as your lifestyle. This is something that young Jews in New York seem to be questioning more and more and it is important to be openly talked about.
Marc Hessel
Re: Max's/Maayan's Post
**Also, Max, I find it interesting that in light of your speaking of Rambam, he was the one that quoted: "Do not consider it
proof just because it is written in books, for a liar who will deceive
with his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with his pen”
Max,
I loved your view point, and being involved with Chabad for over 8 years, somethings seem quite questionable to me about it, even today. Though I am not currently involved directly with any Chabbadnik I am interested nonetheless. If you go back over the 200+ years, you see the Breslover Chabbadnik speak of this spiritual revivalist movement by the Baal Shem Tov. Its always been kind of a quest for me to ascertain truth behind everything I read or study, even Chabad. I consider myself uniquely Jewish, in that I am traditional, but its the experience of our forefathers that I hold close to my heart, not some of these silly interpretations.
When it comes to something like Shomer Negiah laws - I think Rabbinic Judaism. Negiah is only expounded directly from Oral traditions, I have yet to find it implicitly stated in the Chumash. I have a lot of friends in New York, who are Jewish, some who attend many Yeshivot, and most are either Orthodox or Chabadnik, and I find myself coming to my senses when I think of them having fun or going out in the city. How do they do it? Truth is, it limits most of what they do socially, and to even dance with a girl would be forbidden due to Negiah, and spiritually binding as to damnation or condemnation. Oddly enough, it is interesting to note that because of this, a few of my friends that attended Yeshiva University awhile back chose a homosexual lifestyle. I do say because of it, because there is no feasible way that you can tell me that would make me believe otherwise. Its New York -- millions of attractive women, four years at a university, parties, no girls, and you can only hang out with guys? I am no psychology expert, however from what I have learned being bounded by something so strong will invert your psychological environment in drastic ways. And this is a classic example of social distortion, and not the punk band!
People naturally, psychologically speaking, want to feel wanted, accepted, and to fit in. Sexual activity is very important in life, however in the context of Jewish law, one's feelings about this issue get quickly overturned by rabbinical interpretation. If we truly want to be honest here, what would a Creator want for us? What would someone of understanding, acceptance, and love want for humanistic people in terms of Sex?
Max, I may not be old but I have had my heart torn in many pieces by people, religious teachings, or the like. Your story is very true and I agree with Maayan, that its a very real issue in New York, and I really hope that more young Jews come to terms with themselves, and whats going to make them happy instead of their religion. The religion of Judaism does not promise hopes of Olam Haba, we can only hope that through being ourselves, humans, and living lives of decency and being whole-hearted that we may be chanced with a glimpse of an afterlife. I feel in many ways that the laws of Shomer Negiah drive the point across that if you are not subservient to them, you will burn in your own guilt for eternity, this is simply not the case. Gd knew perfectly well that when he created us, we would falter and stray away from the perfect image in which he wanted us to maintain. Without this, there would be no Moses, Aaron, or any other Jewish figure teaching wisdoms on how to perfect our morality through living in righteousness.
I believe the interpretation of Shomer Negiah is simply a misguided concept that is widely believed to be apart of some Jewish ritual and apologetical goobldygook. Sadly, the laws have nothing to do with actually being a "good Jew," yet Orthodox frum and Chabbadnik alike choose this interpretation, instead of whats true inside the hearts. I feel like the saying "just follow your heart" is replying over and over right now. I could only hope the world of Orthodox Judaism could be happy in themselves, instead of forcing themselves to be content within the confines of religious ideologies.
Beezeenc
I don’t believe that those Orthodox Jews who violate laws of Negiah are being hypocrites. Take the example of Christianity. Historically the Church has very willing to avert its gaze away from the sexual misconduct of Christians, particularly if they were kings and noblemen. Christians would tell you that we are all sinners. As sinners we often cannot help ourselves and we commit sins. A Christian of course would also tell you that the solution to this is to accept Jesus as your Savior and by doing so your sins will be forgiven. As Dennis Prager has argued there is big difference between being a hypocrite and being a sinner. A hypocrite holds himself to one standard and other people to a different one. A sinner is someone who holds himself to a standard but does not always succeed in living up to it. Truth is if we are successful at living up to our own standards than our standards probably are not worth a whole bunch.
Living up to Orthodox standards is tough and we are going to fail at many things. What we need to be able to do is on the one hand admit that these are failings, but on the other hand to recognize that we are only human and as humans we are sinners. As Jews we do not believe that Jesus can save us. We believe in the loving God of the Old Testament who will forgive anyone who is willing to ask for it.
Marc Hessel
Re: Learning from Christians
Beezeenc,
I think you bring a valid point to the table in terms of looking at similar circumstances through a Christian lens. However, speaking just on behalf of Negiah in relation to Christian ideals of sinning, I would say you carve an interesting point. Moreover, the real question is do we let these standards of living dictate our lives? If so, like you and Max, previously said in so many words, all you will get is a life of replicating sin. Anotherwords, why live to such standards if you can not be true to them? Why be that hypocrite? Also it is interesting to note that you say "truth is if we are successful at living up to our own standards than our standards probably are not worth a whole bunch." This is true to an extent I believe, but you must realize that there are some who actually do attempt at lives of righteousness - Judaism teaches that amidst our short comings, we can always know that Gd will recognize our efforts towards becoming pure in His image. Christianity, on the other hand, is quick to condone all sinful nature even amidst righteous attempts of coming more pure. How must one gradually become more righteous without first recognizing the small steps made towards this goal? Think of it it terms of parenting. If a child does something that is good, you would want to praise them for that action, correct? This is done to ensure that if Johnny does the same actions that are good in the future he will know that he is doing right - positive reinforcement. This is how I view the relationship between the Creator and myself. But, with the relationship we have with the Creator and ourselves, positive reinforcement works in a more dynamic, and profound way. Take for example when you volunteer, or give clothes to charity, help an old lady cross the street. After you do these things, especially if its been a long time since you did something like this, how might you feel afterwards? That feeling of goodness inside, is Gd's reinforcement to us to do good, it also a valuable lesson in living with humility and humbleness, for we do not derive any monetary goods for doing such actions.
In conclusion, my point to you is in terms of Orthodox standards in Judaism, many are based upon rabbinical interpretation, and being that interpretations often change over time, it is really difficult to denote these as actual Jewish law. However, I am not a Karaite Jew, or Sadducee I believe in Jewish law, and the Oral teachings - but it is important to follow our lives in terms of what good the Jewish people did for others, rather than something so trivial as "am I going to hell for touching this girl?" As I said in my last post -
I believe the interpretation of Shomer Negiah is simply a
misguided concept that is widely believed to be apart of some Jewish
ritual and apologetical goobldygook. Sadly, the laws have nothing to do
with actually being a "good Jew," yet Orthodox frum and Chabbadnik
alike choose this interpretation, instead of whats true inside the
hearts. I could only hope the world of Orthodox
Judaism could be happy in themselves, instead of forcing themselves to
be content within the confines of religious ideologies.
All the best,
-M
Anonymous
There's no T in Malkovich
Beezeenc
Marc
I don’t think we are arguing here. I do believe in striving for righteousness even though we will never truly attain it. God is righteous, we human beings are flawed. I am a little more hesitant than you are to bash Christianity. Christian views as to the nature of sin are more complicated than the simple condemnation of all natural desires.
I am not much into the notion of “God is going to throw people into hell for touching girls.” Again the Catholic notion of venial versus mortal sin is quite useful. I would view touching a girl in way that is beyond an innocent handshake to be venial sin. There is a real halachic issue involved; the fact that all unmarried girls past the age of pre-adolescence are in a state of niddah.
Beyond the religious issue there is an ethical issue that to me is of even greater importance. It is unethical to use another person simply for you own ends. All people must be treated as ends and not as means. As I see it, all sexual activity down to a mere touch is ethically problematic because it involves physically taking a hold of another person and using them for your own benefit. The only way that one can justify such actions is if one has a motive beyond simply bringing pleasure to oneself, like if you were trying to build a relationship.
Marc Hessel
No we are not arguing, additionally I am not bashing the least bit - even though I can be at times inclined to, for this I apologize, in many ways I personally feel that Christianity gave me the most distorted view of a Gd, sins, and what I at the time thought of this place called Heaven. I realized that on a Christian perspective that would be wrong of me to do something like that; that is to judge, and that would be correct. So for the sake of this discussion I will not, at the very least I chose admittedly to disagree in the strongest sense of the word, in terms of the Christian connotations of Gd, what sins are (in a Christian sense), and views of righteousness. I will start by saying I am no longer a Christian I was (in my eyes forced to convert by family ties), even though my family genealogy is Halachically Jewish through and through, just because my mother was Jewish turned Catholic I was made to do the same, not to mention the whole 'ring-around-the-rosy' with 'Messianic Judaism,' however these are topics for another time and discussion. My main concern is letting these 'laws' dictate who you are in terms of happiness, success, and being spiritually content. I have no problems following the Jewish laws, and being molded in a path of righteousness so-to-speak, however one must see that there is more to this life than just following laws. Trust me after over 7 years in the military following laws gets a little dull, especially in terms of trying to seek enjoyment out of life. I speak from much experience.
Moreover, if anything I do not disagree with what your saying in terms of righteous actions, especially a girl after the age of three, I have read the laws of Niddah, and I am aware of this. However, I think sometimes, not always you have these people that get so wrapped up in trying to follow these laws, they get lost in them, and become hypocrites to the very thing they are trying to uphold. So my question to you is, are you perfect? If, like everyone in the world (including myself), said no then more than likely Gd already knows that we all possess many flaws. In striving to keep these laws, we fail, we repent, but its only when we become the hypocrites to holding true to these laws that we fail to see the purpose behind them, which is to make us pure(er) in the image of Gd.
So, my point again is Gd sees our continual efforts, our struggles, our triumphs, and judges accordingly - so, do not be so fast to live a life of laws without first being happy in yourself, or else how can you appreciate the wonders and joys of the L-rd? I silently thank Gd everday for the breath of life to which I have been given, this is my happiness, whats yours?
Kind regards,
-M
Marc Hessel
Sorry in the post above I skipped off of what you commented, on the ethics of using another for self-satisfaction, and I would like to address that quickly.
You wrote:
Beyond the religious issue there is an ethical issue that to me is of
even greater importance. It is unethical to use another person simply
for you own ends. All people must be treated as ends and not as means.
As I see it, all sexual activity down to a mere touch is ethically
problematic because it involves physically taking a hold of another
person and using them for your own benefit. The only way that one can
justify such actions is if one has a motive beyond simply bringing
pleasure to oneself, like if you were trying to build a relationship.
So you have never had a one night stand? If so, how can we judge? Sure what your saying is for sure correct in terms of keeping sexual activity in the confines of a bound relationship, however my contention is if we ourselves have done this, how can we even so much as play with ideas of ethics relating so such behavior. Cause rest assured I haven't played fair either, and thats just me hey and maybe you too! I am human and I am openly admitting my sins by saying it, but every time I have had sex, besides the one night stands, I am either trying or already established a relationship. And sure I have made Tshuvah for all the whoring around I have done. So am I wrong then? I was for sure wrong with the one night stands, believe that. But am I wrong that when I have sex it is in the confines of a monogamous relationship? Truely I agree that it is ethically unjust that one person should use another for self-satisfaction - especially for sex, thats huge. My point I am trying to drive here, is honesty, how can people be good to one another (in terms of not taking advantage of them), if they are not first honest in themselves. This is one thing I learned from my divorce, which again I speak from experience. I was not honest - with who I really was, and with how I thought of her. Because people choose not to be honest with who they really are, they sacrifice the chance of ever really being happy in themselves. I just believe its better to live a life of being honest about yourself, than hiding behind a bunch of laws, that people themselves are hypocrites to. If your sinful just say it to a friend, Rabbi, Priest, etc.., if you have lusty thoughts just say it to a friend, Rabbi, Priest, etc.. be true to yourself the world is too full of hypocrites, why should we be false in nature as they are too? The most commonly stated phrase sums it up "be true to yourself."
Be well & many blessings,
-M
Tobie
Marc: I think it is somewhat disingenuous to pick parts of the halachic system and say that they are distortions of that system without offering rationales within the system itself. Is negiah any less firmly based than the laws of kashrut? Quite the contrary- the prohibition of sex with niddot is explicit in the Torah, and the extension to all touching is based on a (relatively strong) reading of "A woman in her niddah- you should not approach to reveal her nakedness."
Now, whether this halacha is a moral imperative is a totally different question, and whether this particular halacha evolved in a way that is morally useful or accurate is an interesting question. I think that the fascinating thing about the society described by the article, however, is that many of these people never question the halacha or its validity. I have heard few argue that halacha is not binding when it ceases to be morally useful, and even fewer try to justify their actions within the halachic system. So, as far as it goes, they are doing something that they intellectually believe to be immoral. Which is interesting, whether they interpret their actions as hypocricy, sin, or some third option.
Marc Hessel
Tobie,
Thank you for such an intellectual relevance. You make some very fine points. Most of what you wonder I also do too!
First you comment on the aspect of me disingenuously dissecting a part, of Jewish law, which in whole is very large and comprehensive in many, many volumes, teachings, sayings, and interpretations. But I do agree with you, however, I guess a large part of why I am posting so much on this topic is because I have seen so many of my friends be what I believe to as 'bounded' by this law, and I would like to really get inside their shoes and understand why they feel this way to this particular law. As you stated - few argue that halacha is not binding when it ceases to be morally
useful, and even fewer try to justify their actions within the halachic
system. So, as far as it goes, they are doing something that they intellectually believe to be immoral. I emphasize intellectually, because most major proponents of Judaism rely solely on the philosophy of Rabbinical Judaism. This brings me to my next idea...
Now as I stated in an earlier post - -
I believe the interpretation of Shomer Negiah is simply a
misguided concept that is widely believed to be apart of some Jewish
ritual and apologetical goobldygook. Sadly, the laws have nothing to do
with actually being a "good Jew," yet Orthodox frum and Chabbadnik
alike choose this interpretation, instead of whats true inside the
hearts.
I believe that if we live our lives behind these walls of Judaic laws, and interpretations, how must we discover the joys and wonders of Gd? How could we even fathom the profound mysteries of Creation, the Universe, and ever-expanding galaxies without first relying on someones words against our own creative constructivism? Must we always refer back to some obscure riddled passage, that according to some Rabbi we came from salt molecules? (Just an example). Nonetheless, should we? You bring a VERY good point to the table in saying, or pondering rather, the idea of Halacha never being questioned or accounting for its validity. Which takes me back to the previous quote I quoted of Maimonides, "Do not consider it
proof just because it is written in books, for a liar who will deceive
with his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with his pen”
So if the Rambam wrote this during a time of heightened rabbinical intellectualism, it only makes one wonder about the validity of how some of the other Rabbim may be extrapolating information for THEIR interpretations. Great insight, and good points on your behalf, as I said before - I could only hope the world of Orthodox Judaism could be happy in
themselves, instead of forcing themselves to be content within the
confines of religious ideologies. Sadly enough, one of the main reasons why I have chosen not to be Orthodox, is in spite of the beauty of all the intellectual grandeur of Orthodox practices and teachings, to me it is a sect that is primarily based on philosophy, intellectualism, and riddled codex but not truly HaShem-based, I got my eyes set towards more non-vain ideals. -This might cause some sparks in saying this, but I believe in saying it I am only being true to myself, and its better to be true to yourself than to be consumed by lies and mis-conceptualizations.
Kindest regards,
-M
Tamar Fox
Hey Matthue,
I was reading this again, and this paragraph confused me:
There was a paradox involved in being openly shomer negiah. If you were shomer, you could date everyone, whether they were shomer negiah or not (although, if one person was and one wasn’t, chances were, you were either going to get married or break up pretty fast.) But if you weren’t, and you did hook up with girls, then you were off-limits to anyone on the other side of the fence. Untouchable. Dirty. It was like you weren’t even Orthodox. Playing the odds, it was better to be shomer negiah. That way, you could date everyone.
I can't make the syllogism work out, though. If you are shomer, you can date everyone. If you're not shomer you can't date people who are. But, I thought we just said that if you're shomer you can date everyone. I feel like I'm being an idiot here and when you explain it to me I'll feel like a total dumbass, but I don't follow. Help me out?
Thanks,
Tamar
MaxKohanzad
"There is a real halachic issue involved; the fact that all unmarried
girls past the age of pre-adolescence are in a state of niddah."
I'm sorry but this isn't as simple as you state.
It is this assumption which is one of the basis for the whole problem.
Let me suggest an alternative - it is quite clear from the Torah that most Jewish women are ONLY niddah at the time of their period - that the first 7 days or so (generally). after that the Torah it'self does not prohibit a women or man from having sex if they are in a committed lonterm relationship and she has 'washed'.
That means the 3 out of the 4 weeks each month in theory she is allowed to have sex with her spouce. - the majority of the month.
Moreover, you might argue that unmarried women haven't gone tothe mikvah and are therefore in a state of niddah.
But if a women swims in a river, sea, ocean, lake, swimming pool, or EVEN if she has had a LONG SHOWER ie. about 20-30 mins - that is considered as if she has gone to the Mikvah.
This means that the MAJORITY of Jewish women are actually NOT niddah - most of the time. This leaves us with a PRESUMED tahora - i.e. presumed pure - for most women most of the time! unless you know otherwise!
LubabNoMore
Interesting article. From the way you tell the story it seems as if you are in pure shock at what you see around you.
I'm curious as to why you didn't delve more into the hypocrisy of being shomer but otherwise living orthodox. Of course many of the biggest frummies don't follow it (my former self included). But it would be interesting to get your BT perspective (judgement) on this widespread practice.
Do you plan a follow up article?
LubabNoMore
http://lubabnomore.blogspot.com
Matthue Roth
Hey Tamar,
When all of this stuff went down, in addition to agonizing about not being shomer, I was agonizing about not being a math major, too. (I did anthropology -- hello, temp job heaven.) But I made pretty exhaustive diagrams in my journals. Venn diagrams, seriously just the tip of the iceberg.
So:
Let subset A be people who are shomer, and subset B be people who aren't. If you don't touch girls, it automatically makes you more desirable, right? Because you have access to the union of subsets A and B. If you *do* touch girls, subset A is automatically cut off from you, dating-wise, through the corollary of You Come Off As Being A Slut.
However, if you *belong* to subset A, you have open access to both subsets A and B -- the girls who are shomer negiah, the girls who aren't but still think that any boy who touches girls is a sleazy dirtbag, and pretty much everyone outside of subset B-prime-omega -- the girls who don't mind sleazy dirtbags.
Among the circles I was running in, however, subset B-prime-omega is a small and lonely subset.
Less confused? Or even more?
--
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Candy in Action
a novel by Matthue Roth
supermodels. kung fu. and a free mp3 soundtrack....
Tobie
Marc: Thank you!
Max: All of the points you make are perfectly cogent, halachically speaking. However, normative halachic practice is to regard somebody as a niddah until they have gone to the mikvah, and similarly to require much more than a shower to change their status. Going back to biblical definitions or the most lenient loopholes of the law may be valid, but I think you have to admit that it's not general practice, even among the Modern Orthodox. Whatever other paths the halachic progression could have taken along the way don't change the fact that many, if not most, of those who ignore negiah believe that "halacha" is against them, and further believe that they "should" follow halacha. As with every field, there are plenty of loopholes (or more authentic paths) that halacha could have taken. But the interesting thing about this is that it didn't take those paths and we don't see any effort- either from above or as a grassroots movement- pushing it to go there. Instead, most people seem pretty calm about the gap between their actions and general halacha.
Matthue: I think some of the confusion stems from saying "people" when you really want to relate to men and women differently. I think that what you are saying is this: Men who are shomer can date women who are and those who are not. Men who are not shomer can date only those who are not. The implication- and I think this is where Tamar got confused- is that women who are not shomer can date both categories of men.
BT
Focus on the goal. I assume a happy marriage is the goal. There is an unspoken assumption that THAT is not on the program now. As getting a happy marriage is not easy, don't leave it for "later". None of this party stuff is worth a moment of your time, if you define yourself as a pre-husband, who is running down the hall looking for the meeting he is expected in. He doesn't chat up the passersby. He's late, he worrying, concentrating, breaking his brains. "Where is it? Where's the meeting? Use logic. Find it." he says to himself.
Maybe Modern Ortho doesn't work for newcomers, outsiders, BTs, likek you, only Chabad. Maybe you have to be born into Modern Ortho for it to lead to family life, or, maybe, these people will simply never have family life.
There is a REASON the very first commandment in Torah is "go forth and multiply" and that is KNOWN to be aimed squarely at the men, not the women. So do that. The rest is nice, but that comes first. As for these other folks, well, the world is full of things we can't understand. Stick to your goal. And DON'T think you have 'pleeeenty of time'. THAT is the worst peril of all. Shabat Shalom. Have faith. Your faith is being tested. This is your own personal AKEDA. I am SURE you will pass!
BT
THERE IS ANOTHER ISSUE HERE. The woman is not supposed to initiate "hey sailor, new in town?" That is what went wrong here. When you said no, she was horribly deflated and the potential died right there. WOMEN ARE NOT DESIGNED TO TAKE THIS KIND OF REJECTION. Men can handle it. They don't like it, but they know it is not a deal breaker. If she had followed the rules, and smiled sweetly, really sweetly, and said well, good night, it was fun talking!, and gone in alone, you would have said, Hmm! This calls for follow up later in the week! Her bone-headed, inappropriate behavior destroyed a very promising beginning!!! Damn women's lib! It is the primary cause of sterility in modern America! If you don't know the rules of the road, OF COURSE you will bump into everything, from the divider, to the mailbox, to the trees, and there will be terrible loss of life.
Poor child. She ruined her life. She would have had a wonderful marriage with you. Ladies, will you please let the men drive? That's the only way it works.
This metrosexuality is for the birds.
Matthue Roth
Oh, man, LubabNoMore -- I could write a book on hypocrisy. Actually, I kind of already did, but the conclusion that I came to was that it's in one way remarkable. Yes, the essence of our lives on this planet is a balance between our baser nature and our wish to make something better and bigger than ourselves (you know -- praying, having kids, playing a note-perfect Megadeth guitar solo). And yes, it's kind of creepy that a lot of people are Orthodox but not shomer. But I spent a lot of time resenting them for that fact, and probably sublimating my own sexual impulses, and I came to the conclusion that it's better to live and let live -- they'll figure out the truth on their own. So will I, I hope. And you can say that we're all hypocrites in one way or another....or you can say we just haven't found that perfect balance yet.
--
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Candy in Action
a novel by Matthue Roth
supermodels. kung fu. and a free mp3 soundtrack....
Anonymous
Max: No offence, but a long shower is not the same as dipping in the mikvah, not even “bedi‘avad”. There is absolutely no halakhic reason bachelorettes should not dip (and they mostly did, prior to a suggestion made in a responsum of the Ribash), but, similarly, if you want to be intellectually consistent, you cannot create loopholes that have no basis whatsoever in Talmudic literature. You can verify this by studying Tractate Mikvot. It’ll make the ridiculousness of anyone (no matter who) suggesting that showers are OK quite apparent.
MaxKohanzad
Please check out Reb Moshe Finstien's responsas on Mikvas and dipping etc...
Moreover, I've hung out with a Chabad Sheliach who, while living in place where there were no mikvahs, his wife did the 'long shower' thing.
Look - i'm not deffending Rabbis or their interpretation of Halacha, the Talmud or anything for that matter - because that's NOT the point.
The point is USING existing Halacha and Halachic and traditional herenutic prosesses to reveal a form of Halachic Judaism that is more Authentic than what we have been led to believe - since the post-war
polar-Ghettoization and homogenization of contemporary Judaism.
Matthue Roth
Hey Max,
I have to say, I've traveled pretty extensively and I've never come across anyone who says that a shower (or any sort of non-rainwater faucet) makes a kosher mikvah. In places without a mikvah, the common Chabad practice (as well as everyone else's) is to find the closest large body of water. Hey, there's even lakes in Antarctica.
--
.:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:. .:*:.
Candy in Action
a novel by Matthue Roth
supermodels. kung fu. and a free mp3 soundtrack....
MaxKohanzad
Reb Moshe Finstien
Yaakov
Max,
Do you have a citation for that?
Anonymous
"I'm curious as to why you didn't delve more into the hypocrisy of being shomer but otherwise living orthodox."
Is it hypocrisy or human weakness? Doesn't it depend on the circumstances? I see many orthodox who do not strictly observe all of the mitzvos that one could keep in the present day, but view that as normal human failings in most cases.
MaxKohanzad
What do you think I am? I told you my citation, but at least I'm not the only one who has heard of it - even if I can't seem to find a goole link to the Responsa directly.
http://kvetcher.jewschool.com/2007/07/05/calling-out-during-the-three-weeks/
http://jewbiquitous.blogspot.com/2007/07/mikveh-revisited.html
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n008.shtml#17
http://jewschool.com/2006/04/11/when-do-we-eat-wednesday-my-place/
http://home.mayimrabim.com:443/archives/000581.html
Yaakov
Thanks Max. Some of those links refer to tevilas ezra. I'm not sure the mikveh requirement for that is as stringent as the requirement for women. In any event, you've piqued my curiosity. If i find any responsa on point, I'll send you a copy.
Cheers
MaxKohanzad
That Would be FANTASTIC!!
B.BarNavi
"Women are sluts who can't handle their sexuality responsible, so they need menfolk like us to show them how it's done."
Shifrah
Dont anybody cares about stop partaying after a rasonable time and bringing little Jews into this world in a more stable kind of old boring fashion??? do this generations of Jews have to be so F-king fuckable and so extraordinary Cool and cynical???
....Arabs are at list bringing babies and getting marry boring old fashion style and their babies goes to university and become doctors and they care for granmothers and ........terrorism?!
Shifrah
...but this laws of Tohorat Ha-mishpacha have also to do with 'the man, been able to satisfade his wife' and all her needs,
you understand? it's is not only an sport...
Mikewind Dale - Michael Makovi
For those who advocate pilgeshut (concubinage): be it technically legal
though it may, nevertheless, if there's any truth to what Rabbi Dr.
Eliezer Berkovits says in "A Jewish Sexual Ethics" (in Crisis and
Faith, and recently reprinted in Essential Essays on Judaism, ed.
Hazony; this essay is declared by Rabbi Shalom Carmy as the best on the
subject), then pilgeshut could barely be more wrong.
I
apparently once wrote an essay about this. It is only in draft stage (I
had forgotten I wrote it!), but here it anyway. Perhaps it will suffice
for now.
----------
It
has been suggested that, in light of the need for sexual outlet felt
by today's youth, the pilegesh
is a possible solution. The two young individuals would enjoy a
halachically
sanctioned union without the permanence and binding nature of a
marriage.
This
suggestion, however, betrays a crucial misappreciation for Jewish
sexual ethics. As Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits shows in his “A Jewish
Sexual Ethics”1
the
fundamental principle of Judaism's sexual ethic is: personalization.
Christianity erred in
repressing and condemning the body, urging man to wholly spiritualize
himself and suppress those bodily urges. Modern scientific atheism,
on the other hand, declares man is but an animal, albeit a more
intelligent one; therefore, he is to wholly embrace his animalism and
physicality. But the truth is as Judaism declares – man is both
body and soul, physical and spiritual, in an intertwined interrelated
“biopsychic”, “psychosomatic” unity. The physical is to be
embraced, but with appreciation of and upliftment into, the
human-spiritual sphere of the personal. It is to be redeemed from
animalistic impersonality and sanctified into a human-to-human
relationship of the personal, in all its human
biopsychic/psychosomatic fullness. This is the reason that to engage
in relations with one's spouse is to “know” him or her – for
sexual relations are to be the summit of the intimate human-to-human
relationship.
And why precisely marriage?
Because only by tying a knot that cannot be undone on a momentary
whim, only by establishing a link that cannot be casually made
undone, is thereby indicated a confidence, a faith, a commitment
bespeaking true personalization. Only by marriage, which is
(halachically) quite easy to establish but very difficult to
terminate, is such confidence in the other, commitment to the
long-term, such “personalization”, thereby indicated.
To
suggest then, a halachically
sanctioned non-marital union is to fundamentally miss the point. For
one, Ramban declared that such unions will more likely than not
degrade into gross animalistic sexual lust; it is unlikely that the
union will remain a clean pristine morally elevated one. Moreover,
Ramban further said that it is possible to be a sinner with the
permission of the Torah – to utilize technicalities to permit a
non-sanctified union (that is the meaning, after all, of the
kiddushin
that pilgeshut
lacks!), is to seek a heter
to engage in animalistic non-personalized sexual union under the
aegis of the Torah!
But
most importantly, to pursue pilgeshut
and dispense with kiddushin,
indicates a reticence to establish a firm enduring bond. Apprehensive
of the possible future desire to depart from one another, and
unwilling to tie so secure a bond as marriage, concubinage is
resorted to, being a bond but not so inviolable a bond, not so
enduring and firm as marriage. But if so, what does this say of the
“personalization” present in this relationship?
Hashem,
in His Torah, did not declare, as a meaningless chok,
that we are to engage in sexual relations only under marriage. It was
with profound appreciation of the meaning of sexual relations, of the
deep import of its intimacy of “knowledge” of the other that it
fosters, of the vital need for “personalization” via long-term
commitment that cannot be terminated on a momentary impulse, that He
commanded thus, that He commanded the marital bond. To seek a
heter to
dispense with this, is to fundamentally misappreciate His intent, and
to seek to violate the spirit of the law while blithely upholding its
now-vacuous letter. True, perhaps technically no law has been broken,
but woe to the one who has done a sin with the permission of the
Torah.
1
In Crisis and Faith
(New York: Sanhedrin Press, 1976); reprinted in Essential
Essays on Judaism,
ed. David Hazony, Jerusalem: Shalem Press, 2002.