I've asked a few people about this, but I've never really gotten a good answer: How do the rules of shomer negiah apply if you're gay and Orthodox?

I can personally vouch for Bodek's forward-thinking...ness (wow, that's a terrible word). Of the truly religious Jews I know, he's both one of the most genuine, and one of the most worldly. A man who runs the New York marathon in tzitzit is truly one to be reckoned with. More of his Onion-like Jew humor can be found at his website, www.theknish.com. /end plug

 Joey, I don't know what the correct spelling of ufruf (offroof? aueieuxffrough?) is, but you should definitely check it out. You can't miss an opportunity to pelt the bima - and often, the rabbi - with rock candy. Sure, celebration of the groom, blah blah blah. You get to throw candy! In shul! At the Man!

The 72 list of Gay marriage questions are the start of the new Halacha books on Gay and Lesbian Marriage. This the most groundbreaking list to come along since the ten commandments

I guess I am compelled to answer a question with another question:

Is there any reason that Jewish law would be different a Jew involved in some activity that the Torah disallows?  That is, the answer should be simple: laws of Yichud and Shomer Negiah are the same across the board.   Perhaps a few moments of contemplation would allow one to consider some reasons why this would be so, but even if such introspection does not yield any insight the conclusion (of Halachah being the same for all Jews) would remain the same. 

I see the recent anon's point, but doesn't the question have more to do with what counts as sex for halachah (i.e. situations in which a woman must go to a mikvah before having sex with her husband... but need she go to the mikvah before having sex with her wife?!).

Point is way to change a law if this law was aware of homosexuals , and centuries passing by , and what happened, well tradition stay And people are obey to the law, mostly we don’t want to any harm, bout what with happened if our  tradition flew away ?  

I asked Rabbi Greenberg if he would answer Maya's question about shomer negiah for the gay Orthodox, and he said he would very much like to do it, but that it's a serious question that deserves a serious, considered answer, and he just doesn't have the time for that right now. We should try someone at Jewish Mosaic.

im sorry, but theres no way a man whos having a sexual relationship with another man can be considered religious!

the tora (not rabbis, not evebn hjalacha, butt the tora itself) specifically says that a mishkav zachar (man sleeping with another man) is a sin. not only that, but, a death sin. now-the tora doesnt exclude love between 2 men (see david and yonathan), but ex between them is forbidden.

an thus, a person who violates a law from the tora (ie -deorayta)- cannot be onsidered religious.

Danielle

these question are not serious at all - it is typical of Knish humour - it's a big joke (just making that clear for people who my have aspergers)

- There are actually interesting Halachic Questions about the nature of Male Homosexual relationships.

- Obviously Female Homosexual relationships are Biblically permitted but Rabbinically frowned upon. (so much easier to get around)

as far as I'm aware - there are interesting alternative teshuvahs about Gay relationships - that run along the lines of

- "as long as your not having anal sex - it's ok".

So in theory a Male couple may engage in all manner of homosexual activity - with the exclusion of Anal Sex and could also enter into a legal (business) bond which ties them together - over a property, estate etc... (as in the British 'Gay Marriage') giving gay couples equal legal rights as heterosexual couples.

'Divorce' - would be a 'business contract dispute' and the couple would probably have to go to a Dian to settle the matter - and no 'Get' is needed.

As for the actual rituals they might employ to announce there 'Merger' - it is up to them - to invent and borrow from tradition.

But I think that a simple hand shake, raising of a handkerchief or a 'selling of an object' would suffice - to make there business arrangement - 'Marriage' halachicly binding.

There are other issues of course - the Bible would like people to procreate - so i would imagine that Gay couples would be encouraged to have children?

As for 'adultery' and that kind of thing - Judaism encourages long term monogamous relationships - but does not totally eliminate the possibility of extra-marital affairs - the laws of pelegesh/concubine is a key example.

I also imagine that Judaism might encourage Gay couples to 'marry' Jewish partners - because the main reason for not marrying outside of the faith is that it would lead to Jewish people leaving their religion and joining another.

Disclaimer: all this needs to be worked out in much greater detail by people that are knowledgeable enough to make a real guide to Gay Marriages.

So please ask your local orthodox (very open minded) rabbi.

 

nope, gay couples, according to the bible, cannot have any kjindd os sex- mishkav zachar- 2 men having sex- any kind of sex.

Daniellleil - please CITE your assertion from the Old Testament - with the appropriate Rabbinical quote that supports your interpretation.

 

Vayikra (Leviticus) 18:22 "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishkvei ishah to'evah hu” (And with a male do not lie down in bed of a woman - it is nasty).

it is forbidden for 2 men to sleep with one another while they should have been sleeping with a woman ("mishkavei isha"). it doesnt specify which kind of sex youre not supposed to have.

 and besides, its quite obvious- if a man is sleeping with another man, his semen will be, hmm well,, "wasted" in vain.

1917 JPS Translation of that verse (for clarity): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination."

It seems pretty clear that at the time in which the Torah was received/written/edited/whatever-you-believe-about-its-origins the intent was to forbid homosexual relations between men. Yet Jewish tradition teaches that the Torah is a living document, and indeed the history of Rabbinic Judaism has shown that halacha evolves. So what prevents us from interpreting this passage so: Sleeping with women can be interpreted as vaginal intercourse, which is clearly not something that can be done with a man.

There are plenty of halachic loopholes that go against the original intent of the commandments anyway (the eruv, for example), so why not add this one to the list as well?

Of course, the trans community might take issue with it, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

Edit: I would be interested to know what Rabbi Greenberg's justification (if he has one)for gay sex is. 

As someone said, the Torah is a living document.  In fact, one doesn't need to look only to the present day to find justification of anal sex.  According to both the Talmud and the author of the Mishnah (who cites the Torah in support of his findings), anal sex is permitted between (heterosexual) married couples (I'll get to this in a minute).  If, somehow - and I'm not explaining how, that obviously falls outwith my abilities to arrange! - gay  marriage was to become halahkically acceptable, I don't see how anal sex within that marriage would not be.

For reference to what I said above, I cite the Babylonian Talmud Nedarim 20a-b, as quoted by Daniel Boyarin in Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture (1998):

A certain woman came before Rabbi [an honorific title of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince], and said to him: Rabbi: I set him a table, and he turned it over.  He said to her: My daughter, The Torah has permitted you, and I, what can I do for you?

A certain woman came before Rabbi.  She said to him: Rabbi, set him a table, and he turned it over.  He said: How is the case different from fish?  (p.110 in Boyarin)  The fish quotation is in reference to all fish from the fisherman's store being able to be prepared however the husband wants, just as all meat from the shochet may be eaten any way he wants.

 Boyarin goes on to say himself that the Torah disqualifies itself from any interference in the private sexual practices of married couples, who may behave sexually as they please with each other.  ...  Note that according to Rabbi Yohanan, not even non-procreative acts are condemned by the Torah.  In other talmudic texts we learn, moreover, that anal intercourse is permitted as well.  According to this view, at any rate, "wasting of seed" takes place only in masturbation, not in sexual intercourse of even non-procreative varieties (pp.112-113).

Finally, in regards to the children issue, well, in reality this would only be a problem for gay couples and not lesbians, because pru urvu applies only to men: The man is required to be fruitful and multiply but not the woman (Mishnah, Yebamot 6:6, Neussner, J. (ed.), 1988).  Amusingly enough, this same passage provides a loophole for gay men, as a Jewish man is entreated to: not give up having sexual relations unless he has children.  Heh.

the torah is a living document? the torah's rules and advices were the same 2000 years ago, and theyre the same now. from that perspective, it is a living document.

 

however, theres also the prohibition of "wasting" one's semen in vain.  so you take that prohibition, and add that to the torah's very clear prohibition about sex bettween 2 men- and well, youll see why religious jews are against gay sex.

 

and now, the "official" interpretation of that biblical quotee has always been "sex", without explaining WHICH kind of sex (f. example, anal sex) . actually, it is written in such a way that the reader understands that "sex" is prohibited-period-it doesnt specify WHICH kind of sex-who are we to decide which kind is allowed and which isn't?

i hope i was clear! : )

Danielleik -

Firstly - once again PLEASE cite your source for what you are saying - as far as I am aware there is no SPECIFIC - law or verse in the entire Torah (read five books of Moses), which says - "You shall not waste semen!" – (Zera L’Vatala)

Is it a Law which is punishable by Jewish Court of Law? If so what is the punishment? Stoning? Hanging? Whipping? (the mind boggles) Bringing an Animal Sacrifice? Or a donation to your local shul?

The Torah is specific – it says that homosexual SEX – read ‘BEA’ which means intercourse is an ‘abomination’ – the same word used for any one who eats PIG btw.

But I don’t see everyone up in arms about Jewish Pork Eaters being friends – or participating fully in Jewish life? (a point that Shmuley Boteach pointed out years ago.)

Homosexuality itself is not forbidden, but rather the sexual act of intercourse, other acts although undoubtedly frowned upon by the Rabbis (because they might lead to the sexual act of Anal Sex) – are not strictly speaking forbidden by the Torah.

I’m not suggesting that a simple reading of the Torah or the cannon of Traditional Judaism is going to allow this kind of union, however, what we are attempting to do is Don L’Kav Zechus – i.e. find where possible a loophole that would allow and encourage Jewish men who are already in Homosexual relationships – to ‘broadly speaking’ still be and feel within the broadest boundaries of Halachic Judaism, rather than leaving Judaism altogether and hooking up with any Tom Dick and Harry and falling off the edge of the Jewish world.

It is a process that employs the Jewish principle of ‘Pekuach Nefesh’ – saving a life.

Judaism – and Torah was created for the Jews and not the other way around.

See my article on it here.

Oh and on Spilling Seed if it was such a terrible crime that we ostracised people that did it regularly – there wouldn’t be a Jewish Community at all – as most of it’s members would have to ban themselves from being part of the OJC – Orthodox Jewish Community.

The Torah uses the word 'Shekev' - to lye with - it might therefore be permitted to have sexual  intercourse  STANDING UP - as long as you useually don't have sex with women standing up?

Right Max. Good point, "on Spilling Seed if it was such a terrible crime that we ostracised people that did it regularly...." Assuming we're not talking about "spilling seed" publically, why don't we treat it the same way we treat people who fail to use a second glass when making a cup of coffee on Shabbos (actually failing to use a second glass might be a worse sin--ask a Rabbi).

first off, the first thing you say about having sex while standing up is simply being- as we call it in israel- a "little head", meaning, you only see the pshat- what about the drash?

 

secondly, before i give you the quote you request (and rightly so!), do you believe in the talmud? that is, that it was given to moses by god (the "oral law")? if not, this discussion is done. if you do, thenn i can suggest more tahn a quote, but the story of onen from the bible and what the talmud has to say about that, etc etc.

That's a funny question - do I believe that the Talmud exists? Do I believe that everything in the Talmud is the word or God? Do I believe everything in the Talmud actually happened? Do I believe that the stories of the Talmud are meant to be Literal or Literary?

Do I believe that the Talmud as a document was given to Moses at Sinai? Do I believe that the Talmud is the main document of Jewish faith?

Surely the Talmud is the Talmud -

As for your comment about "little head" or in traditional kabbalistic terminology you mean 'Mochin D'Katnas' (Ashkenazi Pronunciation) - it means narrow minded, as opposed to it's opposite - which is 'Mochin D'Gadlos' - i.e. expanded consciousness! These two terms within Chassidic philosophy are used together with 'Daas Elyoin' and 'Daas Tachton'. The point being that the Baal Shem Tov (Do you Believe in him?) said that 'when we see something in another it is very likely that it is something we have failed to see within ourselves' - So it is semi-ironic that you say that my reading is 'little headed' when in fact your entire approach to this topic is one which is relatively short sighted and very narrow minded indeed.

For example - you have interpreted a verse in the Torah according to your own understanding - not based within the actually words of the verse, moreover your assertion that you are right - that the prohibition is on ALL homosexual - sexual - activity including oral sex - mutual masturbation - and other more inventive forms of non-anal homosexual sexual activity - is again based your own cultural norms within what seems like the OJC - not on Torah!

My literal interpretation (which was a joke by the way) is more grounded in authentic Jewish interpretation of the Torah than yours which I would argue might be based on something other than Torah - but moreon the cultural norms of the society you are in.

(see the argument of Beis Shammi with regards to saying the Shema - they [according to the editor of the Talmud] say that the Torah verse about saying the Shema when you go to sleep and when you get up is meant to be said - either lying down when you go to sleep and standing up when you awake)

- that the Torah is quite specific with its wording - why would the Torah have used that particular word and not another? except if was to exclude those that did the homosexual act standing up? do you see the logic?

It just seems a little convenient for you to come along and say that the same logic - the same loophole interpretation, the same literalism can be used on some areas and not on others?

You see as far as I'm aware if there is no BEA - so actual sexual intercourse - there is no Biblical crime - there is not actually - 'abomination'.

Let us now have a Talmudic discussion about the nature of Homosexuality! You bring the Talmud and so will I!

If we are to look at the Talmud - it is cleear that the prohibition of two men lying down together is refering to anal sex since it is implied by Raba in Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 55b where R. Shesheth is trying to say that Anal sex is not a good thing "where he warned her concerning unnatural intercourse."

Raba then blows him out of the water and says - anal intercouse is not the problem within a hereosexual relationship because the Torah talks about Homosexual Anal Sex 'As with a woman' to quote: "Said Raba to him: The text reads, As with womankind!"

Raba is implying that the Torah is refering to Anal Sex specificly - when it is talking about men lying down together! 

also see the same story in Talmud - Mas. Sotah 26b which is explained a little better:

"What is the purpose [of the Scriptural phrase] carnally? (In Num. V, 13, since the law applies to a man who is incapable.)— It is required for this teaching: ‘Carnally’ to the exclusion of something else. What means ‘something else’? — R. Shesheth said: It excludes the case where he warned her against unnatural intercourse. Raba said to him, [It excludes the case where he warned her against] unnatural intercourse? It is written: As lying with womankind! (Lev. XVIII, 22. The word for ‘lying’ is in the plural and is explained as denoting also unnatural intercourse.) But, said Raba,it excludes the case where he warned her against contact of the bodies.(With the other man, although there is no actual coition.) Abaye said to him, That is merely an obscene act [and not adultery], and did the All-Merciful prohibit [a wife to her husband] for an obscene act? "

"Now that you say that if he lifts his master he acquires him — if so, a heathen bondmaid should be acquired by intercourse? ( Which is also a form of lifting) — When do we say this, when one derives pleasure and the other pain; (I.e., the slave does an act of servitude from which he personally derives no pleasure.) but here both derive pleasure. Then what can be said of unnatural intercourse? (Where only the male derives pleasure.)
Said R. Ahaiy b. Adda of Aha: Who is to tell us that both do not derive pleasure? Moreover, it is written, [Thou shalt not lie with mankind] with the lyings of a woman: (Lev. XVIII, 22: lit., translation; ‘lyings’ is understood to refer to two forms of coition, natural and unnatural.) thus the Writ compared unnatural to natural intercourse."

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 55a:

" R. Ahdaboi b. Ammi propounded a problem to R. Shesheth: What if one excited himself to the first stage [of masturbation]? — He replied: You annoy us! (By a reprehensible sophistry, the thing being an impossibility. Other translations: ‘You disgust us; insolent man that you are!’) R. Ashi said: What is your problem? This is impossible in self-stimulation; but it is possible in the case of coition with a membrum mortuum. On the view that such, in incest, is not punishable, in masturbation too it is not punishable. But on the view that it is punishable, a twofold penalty is incurred here, since he is simultaneously the active and passive partner of the deed."

The deed is not Masturbation - but rather Anal Sex (with a Flaccid penis?)

 -connection with a male - הבא על הזכור

It uses the word HaBa - i.e. Bea - ie. - sex - intercourse!  (Anal Sex)

Not messing around with! 

I have to say I lost you there, Max.  Could you please summarize your findings?

The point I'm trying to get along here is that Daniel - doesn't know what he's talking about. Simply that the Torah only prohibits the act of Homosexual Anal Sex - and not other forms of homosexual - sexual activity. (even spilling seed is not a biblical prohibition)

I am trying to show that there is room - theoretical room within the bounderies of Halachic Judaism for Jewish Homosexual Men to remaim within the Traditional Judaism and within same sex relationships. With of course is not the ideal state - that Judaism would want - however  still keeping them within the  paremeters of the Torah, and feeling a lot less guilt ridden for being who they are. 

 

There is an interesting tshuva at www.bmv.org.il/ab/dd.asp written by Rabbi Simcha Roth.

 There is also a very interesting reading of the biblical text by a rabbi at the U of Judaism.  However, I heard that in a seminar with him and don't have a text reference.

 I'm delighted by the discussion and the book.

I appreciate your discussion of the issue.  It's nice to have an open mind and text knowledge.

 L

I didn't find his approach very good at all - he seems slightly patronising and his use and veneration of many of the post-Talmudic texts seems a little strange.

Lets just get a few things straight.

1. According to the Talmud (as explained above) it is only Homosexual Anal Sex that the Bible forbids

2. There is no Biblical prohibition against Masturbation or 'wasting of seed' - per say* 

*the biblical story of Onan (Gen 38:8-9) it is quite clear that it was Onans selfishness in his refusal to continue his brothers line - that God made him die prematurely.

The Talmud in Nidda 13a - seems to invent and problematise Masturbation and uses the above Gen 38:9 to 'proove' that spilling seed as a by-product of masturbation is very bad.

But such a reading is not implied by the Biblical text at all.

I know this will go nowhere with most of you, since most of you are honestly more religious than myself, but here goes nothing...

Romans, Greeks, (and I'd imagine other occupying forces) of the time of the Torah all saw homosexuality as accepted if not revered.  Perhaps the laws of homosexuality are more a calling to not do it, becasue you will assimilate into the culture of the occupying force.  I find the Torah has lots of rules that serve to prevent assimilation or maintain health.

Might I add I'm completely with Max on the spilling of the seed issue.  Only for very selfish purposes haha  There are even studies now that man who ejaculate often are at a lesser risk of prostate cancer.  Hence no law preventing such an act haha.

Note: Some of this is in jest, but looking at the Torah historically I am very serious about.

First, just to set the record straight, Greek and Roman civilization was far off from the time the Torah was written/recieved/whatever-you-believe. So we're talking about Egyptians, Canaanites, Edomites, Amalakites, etc. when we look at Biblical history.

That being said, your point has some merit to it, especially for people who don't believe that the Torah is the word of God as written by Moses, and therefore feel that it is legitimate to ignore commandments. These generally aren't the types of people who have a problem, from a religious point of view, with homosexuality. To the Orthodox, who generally profess to believe that Torah is God's truth, there appears to be a prohibition against gay sex, and, considering the divine nature of the Torah's prohibitions, there's really no way to allow gay sex and marriage. So regardless of the historical circumstances in which the original law arose, for an Orthodox Jew, the commandment can't be trivialized. Since the commandment is there, the only way around it for someone who has accepted its validity is through interpretation.

Further complicating things is the fact that the Torah is not the only source from which Halacha is derived. The Orthodox also believe that the contents of Talmud were communicated to Moses orally when he received the Torah, and were passed down verbally until they were written down in 2nd-6th centuries C.E. Thus, the passages that MaxKohanzad cites are just as important as the original Biblical law. And if the Talmud rules that anal sex between two men is forbidden, then any interpretation of the Biblical prohibition can't contravene the rabbinic ruling, because the rabbinic ruling is also considered to be revealed. The same goes for masturbation: the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid it, but the Talmud does, so there's no way around it for the Orthodox.

This is why I'd be interested to find out what Rabbi Greenberg's interpretation of all this is. Since he's Orthodox, I assume (and yes, I know it's a big assumption) that he believes that the Torah is divine revelation and that the Oral Torah is included in that revelation. Even if my assumption is wrong, the Orthodox community as a whole still operates on the principle of divine revelation, so anyone practicing Orthodox, but not necessarily believing Orthodox, would still have to conform to the community's beliefs.

EDIT: Wow. That was a lot longer than I thought it was when I wrote it. 

You should definitely read Rabbi Greenberg's exegesis on the subject: <i>Wrestling with God and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition</i>.  He takes on the Biblical prohibitions as well as the halacha.  The main point to remember, I think, is that halacha (as the word implies) moves over time, if slowly and carefully (and there are of course both valid and less valid reasons for moving so slowly).  Rabbi Greenberg urges everyone interested in the issue to be patient, and he does stress what you say: namely, that Talmud is also revealed and cannot be simply swept aside.  But, if you believe all of this was revealed by God, you might also be willing to admit that God is so powerful that perhaps our human brains cannot always understand God's will immediately---that's why we needed Mishneh (and all that followed) in the first place.

According to what I understand of modern academic view of the Torah (Five Books of Moses) they were written by a bunch of preists - approximately in the Greco-Roman period! (go figure!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Textual_criticism

"...the contemporary view is that P is earlier than D, and that all four books date from the First Temple period (i.e., prior to 587 BC)." (From the Wikipedia article you linked)

The Greco-Roman period is an extremely long period of time.  587 BC was well before there was Greco-Roman influence in the Middle East.  Regardless, there was pagan worship in the Middle East at that time that did involve homosexual sex, so gogityershinebox's comment still has merit to it.

Anon, thanks for citing Rabbi Greenberg's book.

History was never my strong point - in fact I'm not sure what my strong points are?!

Talmudic research through a liberal lens seems to be one! 

Thanks Dan !

I'm in two minds about why I opened myself up to asking for complements, that wasn't my intention at first although it's nice of course.

Liberal hey? I'd never really thought of myself in those kinda terms - as I'm naturally a bit of an extremist. What I want to offer - what I'm interested in is creating - discovering - uncovering - rediscovering - what i've coined as 'Authentic Judaism'.

I'm coming from a neo-chassidic background - and i'm open to challenging every element of Judaism, to use a chassidic approach to interpretation to re-interpret everything! - So that eventually i'll uncover or create - something that makes deep existential sense and feels right - it may not actually be Judaism per say - but then it's very questionable in my mind if anyone - in the entire world - is really practising Judaism per say at all.

I want to be honest - I want to talk to God in every sacred text that we have. I want to communicate, unite and loose myself in the divine within the Torah - and within the world.

I'm not saying that being a homosexual is something that is ultimately good - in a deep and meaningful way - but as a human being as a passionate and compassionate being - i understand something of the difficulty that a Jewish person may have if they are - or have homosexual tendancies.

But - i'm not one to sit in Judgement - ultimately I can only ever judge myself.

In my mind the Torah can be seen as a divine communication - I'm open to listening and hoping to understand what the Divine in me and our tradition is really saying.

Homosexuality is not prohibited, the Torah is not condeming those natural feelings of love for someone of the same sex - in my mind it is merely saying that to go forward and act on those feeling - that orientation - to such an extent that it replaces - lying with someone - (a man with a woman), that in terms of Humanity in terms of life - in terms of something very deeply tyed up with our very existence (God) it goes against the direction of that all of LIFE is ultimately headed.

That's not to say that God and the Torah doesn't understand being human - I mean if you believe in God - then God's got to understand humanity - so in my mind - it is an important point that the Torah is ONLY prohibiting - the act of ANAL SEX with a man!

So that the Torah is in many ways allowing room for people to be themselves - to discover and to be honest with themselves about who they are - but ultimately it doesn't want you to actually replace the relatively procreative act of hetrosexual sex with homosexual anal sex.

I'm not saying that I actually agree with this or not - but - this is what I feel that the Torah is saying to me.