Tamar, thank you so much for keeping us Athios in mind!  You dont know how troubling and oppressive it is to have to hear the word God everywhere you turn and to see people worshiping their Lord!  It is disgusting!  I cant stand it and truly wish it were outlawed.

thanks for the shoutout!

"...I think my Jewish atheist friends deserve to have their rights
protected, too. If they want to go to a mall on Saturday mornings, or
eat ham all day long, even if I’m not crazy about it, they need to
always have the right to do that."

Some non-atheist Jews do that too. I used to be one of those ham-eating Jews, but it's been so long now that the thought of eating pork actually makes my stomach turn. I even know rabbis (though I'm sure I'll get some jerk telling me that they're not actually rabbis or even Jews) who rather proudly proclaim their non-obedience of kashrut. That one bothers me, though. If you want to flout a rather innocuous and certainly culturally relevant standard, then at least do it quietly, especially when you're someone who is supposed to be a role model for other Jews.

Sorry for hijacking the comments section, since it seems you were looking for more of a discussion on atheism and not one on non-Orthodox believing Jews.  I completely agree that atheists in this country, Jewish or otherwise, shouldn't have to elect candidates based on whose religious values are least likely to make their lives miserable.

Are you gonna give a shout out to those of us practicing incest???

i was brought up in a non-kosher jewish (cultural) enviornment. my folks were agnostic. i am a christian.

the pork prohibition is based on the simple practice of refraining from eating the "flesh" (not "meat" in the greek or hebrew) of scavengers. as a former aggie grad student, i am in awe of moses' obvious connection with YHVH; how could a royal egyptian prince have any knowledge of the porcine affinity for trichanae and brucellosis, let alone the digestive distribution of toxins via the lymphatic system, storing the enviornmental pollutants in the muscle and fat ? The Torah as pretty specific as to laws, statutes and ordnances. leave it to mans' traditions to obfuscate and confuse. most christians take peter's experience (acts 10) as an excuse to practice dangerous eating habits; they ignore the fact that peter never ate a morsel of the "trafe". much as they ignore the fact that the adder bite that paul received (acts 28) ACCIDENTALLY is not an excuse for playing with venomous snakes. much of the judeo-christian "traditons" are based on an ignorance of hebrew-greek-aramaic idioms and figures of speech in the Bible, which of course gets carried over into the "scholarly" translations of the MSS. alot of my brother christians ignoring, the 22nd psalm of david, really feel that Yhoshua (Jesus) was forsaken by The Father whilst on the cross. see <a>href="www.wordstudy.org/psalm22.htm" </a>.

Anyhow back to pork.... while the consumption of a rack of ribs (sigh-yummy) is not a damnable sin, it could and does contribute to the toxification of our bodies.There are 10 commandments that are quite simple and sraight foward.... there are at least 600+ rules and regs (man-made) built from them.caveat emptor.

Where is my shout out?  You think it is hard to be sm atheist in Jerusalem?  Try being heterosexual in San Francisco!

What do you think about that Tamar!?!  Huh huh huh?  Well?  WHat do you think huh?  HUH HUH HUH!  NU? Huh Tamar, Huh!?!

You are a religious christian who believes that God only gave the 10 commandments and not the rest of the Torah?  is that a mainstream chirstian belief?  Please let me know if it is.

You do realize that the count of 613 commandments includes about 25 that are part of what you call the 10 commandments right?

Re: the prohibition being only the flesh, you are reading some whacked out translations dude, check it out in the original Hebrew, all of the meat is prohibited.

two hebrew words (also in the septuagent in the greek) one for "meat" which we can eat the other for flesh (which includes the entire animal) of the unclean (all predators and scavengers). check the hebrew for yoself "dude".

again there are laws, ordnances and statutes the 10 commandments are "Laws". The Law, The Prophets and the Writings ( www.tanakh.org/contents.html ) are the TaNaKh referred to carelessly as the "old" testament.

Torah
(tor-AH) -- The Law, also called the Pentateuch (Greek
for "five books")

Nebiim (
neh-veh-EEM) -- The Prophets

Ketubim
(keh-tu-VEEM) -- The Writings

nowhere is the flesh of unclean (trafe) referred to as "meat" nowhere is the meat God has commended to our appetites (kosher) reffered to as "flesh".

JC by the way stands for Jesus Christ; are you calling me or yourself an enemy of Yashua Ha Moshiach ?

By the way as a former RCA cowboy i resent the term "dude" it rhymes with rude and crude. 

Shalom 

Pigs don't chew their cud.  So it doesn't really matter. They're not kosher.

"The following, however, of those that either chew the cud or have true hoofs, you should not eat:...and the swine--although it has true hoofs, with the hoofs cleft though, it does not chew the cud: it is unclean for you. You shall not eat of their flesh or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you" (Leviticus 11:4-8, JPS 199 Translation). 

"But the following, which do bring uo the cud or have true hoofs which are cleft through, you may not eat:...also the swine--for although it has true hoofs, it does not bring up the cud--it is unclean for you. You shall not eat of their flesh or touch their carcasses" (Deuteronomy 14:7-8, JPS 1999).

I don't know how much clearer than that it can be.  I can't really figure out what you're trying to get at by differentiating between "meat" and "flesh."  The Hebrew in those passage is "basar," which means meat or flesh.  It's really not ambiguous at all.

There are plenty of other nuances of kashrut you can argue; this isn't one of them. 

Oh, and Soccer, Jews who practice incest are still Jews.  They're just participating in a practice condemned by most of the rest of the world.  Jews who don't keep kosher are still Jews, but unlike incest, they're only found to have lapsed morally by more observant Jews than they.

basar is used for general references to both flesh and meat.

HOWEVER

4303 mat` am (mat-am');

or (feminine) mat` ammah (mat-am-maw'); from 2938; a delicacy:

KJV-- dainty (meat), savoury meat.

4503 minchah (min-khaw');

from an unused root meaning to apportion, i.e. bestow; a donation; euphemistically, tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary):

KJV-- gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice.

1320 basar (baw-sawr');

from 1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension, body, person; also (by euphem.) the pudenda of a man:

KJV-- body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakednessself,, skin.

400 'okel (o'-kel);

from 398; food:

KJV-- eating, food, meal [-time], meat, prey, victuals.

besides basar none of the other designated words used for "meat" is ever used for forbidden flesh.

please bear in mind that there were very few if any folks in moses' charge who would understand the metabolisms of ruminants versus non ruminants. hooves and cud are much more obvious than the polluted flesh of scavengers and predators. by the way, certain cuts of beef are considered tref (porter house, oxtail etc.) due to their proximity to the organs of defecation..... as an aggie and a hunter (for food) i can vouch for the unclean stench of these feces proximal cuts.

B'rayseet (Gen.15) 

3 And Abram said, Behold! You have given no seed to me; and lo, the son of my house is inheriting of me! 4 And behold! The word of Jehovah came to him saying, This one shall not be your heir. But he that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be your heir. 5 And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be. 6 And he believed in Jehovah. And He counted it to him for righteousness.(LITV)

If Abraham (then called Abram) had to have his faith counted as righteousness, and the pre-Torah "laws" were much easier to follow than those of the post Sinai era especially with the later added mishna and talmudic rules (which are man's words), who of us can be without faith for G-d to count as righteousness??. i suggest those who would like to examine the thoughts of Gamleals' star pupil on this matter to check out Galatians chapter 3 or not whatever.

Shalom

I'm sorry, JCfan, I still don't understand what you're trying to argue.

JCFan, I know what JC means, I was calling myself an enemy of his, not you, dont worry.

Also, sorry about the misunderstanding, Im from LA and "dude" has a different connotation here, I didnt mean to offend you (though I dont mind that I did).

Dan, dont worry no one else knows what the hell JCfan is talking about either, he is an incoherent bumbling preacher, the type we would normally just ignore as he shouts on the street corner.

Dan: At first when I read your response I was really embarrassed.  How could I mix up lack of observance with atheism??  But then I realized--the government can't legislate what people believe.  They can make it hard to be an atheist, but only in that they can force your to go to shul, or observe various mitzvot etc.  If you keep all the mitzvot and just don't believe at all there's nothing they can do.  SO that's why my examples make any sense.  I wouldn't dream of implying that people who don't keep SHabbat don't believe in God, I'm just saying, if you don't believe in God, you probably don't want to have to tape the light in your fridge off on Friday afternoon.

Soccer: ::Eye roll:: 

JCfan's posts should be ignored.  He insists that there are separate words in Biblical Hebrew for "flesh" and "meat," yet there's only one word for both -- "basar."  His other suggestions all have different meanings, as his own post shows -- "mat'am" meaning "dainties" or "tasty foods," "minhah" meaning "offering," "ochel" meaning food in general.  He also purports to interpret the religious commandment of another religion, contending that the prohibitions on certain species are based on a rejection of predators and scavengers -- first, no such categorization is suggested by the language of the Humash, and second, if his interpretation were correct, horse meat would be kosher.

    I have no objection to Christians reading, or even participating in, a Jewish community's discussion, provided that they do so with respect, civility, and diffidence.  But this is trolling, and it has no place here.  JCfan should take his Christian proselytizing elsewhere, or the Jewcy moderators should terminate his posting privileges.

Terminate posting privileges!?  Dont do that!  If that starts happening where will that leave me???

ps can anyone confirm if it is indeed a christian belief that God only gave the 10 commandments and the rest is all of human authorship?

No worries, Tamar. I was just being snarky with that post.

As an actual Jewish atheist - and apparently featured Jewcer (!?) I actually would like to thank you Tamar. 

I love the culture in which I was raised.  I really do love it.  I love the country in which I was born.  I also cannot find in in my being to believe in a divine.  Believe me, I tried.  I even attended HUC for a year.  I find it difficult not to respond to the many misconceptions about atheism, but I also know that getting into a debate about my right to be an atheist will most likely not be met with an open mind.  So again, I thank you for yours Tamar.

Faith: I will gladly enter into an open minded debate about your idiotic irrational so called "atheism" any day!

"Faith: I will gladly enter into an open minded debate about your idiotic irrational so called 'atheism' any day!"

"open minded"

"your idiotic irrational so called 'athiesm'"

Yu-huh. Sure you will.  Just remember that "God exists because God said so in the Torah" is a tautological argument. 

was trying to point out that swine flesh was never called a "foodstuff" in Yah's Word. Nor, for that matter, the flesh of any other unclean critter. The point is that many Christians ignore the dietary "laws" at the peril of grave illness not damnation. They feel that Acts 10 gives them some sort of license to eat anything they please. They are ignorant of the fact that not one single morsel of tref ever passed Pete's lips.

Bottom line is that Yah put the dietary rules to us for our own good health not for His.

The church i oft-times attend does NOT shout on corners nor do they "pass the plate" or do any other form of begging. In fact the pastor (for the last 30+ years) has not taken a dime for his preaching, teaching or pastoral duties.The church itself, is on satellite 24-7 teaching Yah's Word chapter by chapter and verse by verse demonstrating the tools needed to break the translations back to the MSS.

Again; check out, or not,Psalms 22,23,24 (death, resurrection and victory); David was a prophet as well as a king.

Psalm 14
1 For the Leader. A Psalm of David.

The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; they have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; there is none that doeth good. 2The LORD looked forth from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any man of understanding, that did seek after God. 3 They are all corrupt, they are together become impure; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 'Shall not all the workers of iniquity know it, who eat up My people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD?' 5 There are they in great fear; for God is with the righteous generation. 6 Ye would put to shame the counsel of the poor, but the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When the LORD turneth the captivity of His people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad. (JPS)

Shalom

Horses are neither scavengers nor predators, but they do not chew their cud. They are non-ruminant herbivores with a simple stomach. They are therefor unclean. sorry i can't draw a venn diagram on this modality.
It turns out that multi stomached herbivores are far more efficient at excreting any poisons that they might ingest, than single stomached critters, especially omnivores. catapillars are neither predators nor scavengers yet they are unclean. The cud, split hoof and taking in the blood rule excludes all scavengers and predators; others as well. Forgive, or don't, my saying that I in the biblical sense, am as much a "Jew" as some and more so than many. The message i seem to be getting is "atheists are welcome Christians are not" at least from you Tarfon.

I found this site by a synchronistic ("accidental") search engine hit, and got into the kashruth discussio; The "I Am Who Am" is first in my life even as i struggle with my flesh.

Shalom

Matt 5:17-20
17Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. 18Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one tittle pass away from the law until all comes to pass. 19Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them , this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. 20For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, in no way shall you go into the kingdom of Heaven.(LITV)

i am saying that the so-called "oral-tradition" is a work of men as well as the talmud.

shalom

So you're coming on a Jewish website to criticize other Christians? Certainly the discussion could be interesting, but when you're talking to a bunch of Jews as if we're Christians, you'll have to forgive the propensity for us to misunderstand you.

i do not differentiate twixt those who call themselves Christian or those who call themselves Jews. Most are so biblically illiterate that when the anti-christ appears they will flock to him crying "moshiach" or "jesus" or "krishna" or "matria" or "mahdi" etc..... you see satan, or the antichrist (one in the same) is a supernatural being and will appear as all gods to (almost) all people. in greek antichrist means instead of Christ.

The latter chapters of Daniel are coming to pass. They are expanded in Revelation and appear on the nightly news. (i do not have an "end is near" sandwich board).
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations! 13 And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of God will I exalt my throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world, to the uttermost parts of the pit.(JPS)

Agape and

Shalom !