Bat Sheva, consort to king David, mother to king Solomon, and thereby
direct maternal ancestor of the Messiah, bathed on the roof of her home
in the nude for all to see.

I personally believe that she knew very well that she was being spied
upon by king David and that this is exactly how she achieved her
exalted status. This is the subject of my print Bat Sheva...

Do our Ultra-Orthodox women feel that they are more virtuous than the Messiah's great great great grandma?

Although it pains me to say it, this is simply another example of
how religious zealots, through their fervent fanaticism, often
succeeded in repudiating the very faith that they so hypocritically
profess to protect.

It turns out that fanatical Jews are no better than Christians, Muslims, or believers in the Big Giant Meatball in the Sky, in this respect...

Wow, so wrong, so sad... be it self imposed or externally mandated, it's awful just the same.  The visceral, negative reaction to burkas is not based on our Western associations to fundamentalism, it's simply shocking and chilling to see a completely black, shrouded figure.  I've been with very young children who have no prior political or negative associations with the burka; their pure, natural reaction is that of fear. 

This is terrible. It is an insult to the Jewish man. It implies he acts badly toward Jewish women, so they have to hide themselves, to this degree. Let us hope this is only a few crazy people. Let us hope for a clear rabbinic ruling against this. Look at the chillul Hashem already. If this has turned even one person against religious observance, think of the sin. 

I agree that it does seem weird for these women to be taking on wearing these burkas in public, I mean they already dress so modestly and I always thought at least Orthodox Jews can wear pretty skirts, where Muslims can only wear the same outfit everyday, even thought there are some that are very pretty. But being that this is a typically Islamic tradition it seems absurd for Jewish women to want to look like them in any way. But I do think that if this is what a woman wants to wear, seeing as how the item in question has no religious ties to Judaism in any way, I don't see a reason to not allow them to wear what they wish. Just because Jews in America wouldn't want the association, perhaps these women have a different "fashion" taste, a new trend we haven't started here yet.

Why is there such a negative reaction? If someone wants to wear something because it makes them feel like they are doing the right thing let them. Other people may think the way you dress is ridiculous, should they go around saying how terrible it is. This is not the Hollywood red carpet. This is the lives of people in very small communities wanting to live "the word of G-d". You may not like what they wear or their philosophical approach but who cares.

 mTp 

Many religious Jews are up in arms about this because it's a deliberate twisting of customs and rules that many pple take very seriously, not to mention the uncomfortable fact of choosing the garb of another pple who are out to kill us. There is a very real fear that this new "custom" could catch and and Gd forbid become some kind of norm.

So, i can understand for the average American Reform Jew, this turn of events means absolutely nothing so why can't we just "live and let live". But for religious pple both in Israel and in America, this is a very disturbing trend that could directly affect our everyday lives, even those who don't live in this small community (btw, it's not that small. Charedi communities have a million kids, even the small ones). That's why we care. 

BatSheva... her bathing nude wasn't exactly her finest moment.If you recall, it got her husband Uriel killed.

and as for the great meatball, I can only assume you mean the flying spaghetti monster! Please, get your deities in line! :)

Why is this a problem?

1. It's part of the radicalization of Judaism, meaning that in ten years, rabbis will be saying that this is the only correct way to dress. And when that happens, I can only hope that my husband will accept that I protest the nonsense by wearing jeans and tank tops... (I currently wear only skirts and shirts with sleeves that pass the elbows). Additionally, it will put a bigger and bigger gap between the religious and non-religious Jews in Israel, who somehow are currently managing to not kill each other.

2. It's a deliberate twisting of a halachic concept, which, as an Orthodox Jew, I find disturbing.

3. What it says about men is disgusting. It says that men cannot control themselves at all. If a man sees the curve of my neck, he will be unable to contain himself? The logical next step is that if a girl whose neck was showing is raped, it was her fault - she was asking for it. I do not accept that. While I feel that some women put themselves out as sex objects and perhaps put a strain on men's abilities to contain themselves, they still have to obligation to keep their bodies under control.

Additionally, if the norm becomes covering everything, then soon seeing a woman in a jeans skirt and a sweatshirt will be too much for men. I, for one, am glad that my husband can talk to a girl in jeans and a t-shirt and not fall over for longing.

Point 1 regarding adopting the customs of the nations applies to illogical practices of idolatrous nations which have no basis in Torah.  Many Eastern Orthodox Christian women cover their hair EXACTLY as most religious Jewish women today do.  They also give charity, etc...  Should we stop these things practices just because they also do them?  The fact is that Jewish women HISTORICALLY kept these levels of modesty which you are unfamiliar with, but the practice lessened over time due to the IMMODEST dress of Christian women.  Since Islam ADOPTED the traditional JEWISH practice of modesty, these high levels of modesty continued among Jews in Islamic lands up until they came in contact with modern culture... usually upon arrival to the secular state of Israel.  There are many such references in Jewish religious writings and in old pictures and paintings.  Not everything non-Jews do is forbidden.  Why don't you apply this commandment to the traditionally Christian clothing adopted by Charedi men?

Point 2:
This is a very important point you make, which is violated in many ways in ourd ay.. but the issue of burqa is NOT one of them.  Wearing of a face-covering is referred to in Talmudic texts and in Jewish law, and it is the way Jewish women outside of Europe traditionally dressed up until recent times, dating back even to BEFORE Islam.

Mishneh Torah in Sefer Nashim in Hilkhoth Ishuth 24:12

"...What is meant by 'the Jewish faith?' It is the practice of modesty that the 'Daughters of Israel' are accustomed to.  And these are the things that if she does one of them, she transgresses the 'dath yehudith:'

She goes out to the marketplace or to a passage way with openings at each end while her head is uncovered and without a reh'dheedh [long descending veil] on her as all the women, EVEN THOUGH her hair is covered in a scarf / handkerchief,..."

A covered head is defined in Hilkhoth Avel as having one's head covered AT LEAST up to one's lips.  Indeed,we find several references in Midrash that women cover themselves in a way similar to how a Jewish mourner is to cover himself--up to his lips.  Now as for point 2 in your article--why do we no longer see most men upholding the decree of Hazal regarding covering his head up to his lips when mourning?

In short, this is NOT a new practice among Jewish women, but rather it is a revival of traditional modesty among Jewish women which has roots going back to Eve, according to Midrash (Pirqe R. El. xiv).

http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id71.html

Baloney.

1) You are not a rabbi. You know we cannot verify your quotations, but we have rabbis who can. We listen to THEM, not to you. A Bet Din threw this in the garbage, hard. Can you imagine! They ordered him to divorce her!! They declared her unfit, unfit to be married to, treif, wicked. And he hadn't even asked to get rid of her. 

2) This practice would make it easier to bomb Jewish neighborhoods. Nobody would know who was under the cloth. They couldn't check everybody all the time.

Thank you for bothering to respond.

It may not have Batsheva's finest moment, but it got her in the
king's eye and gave us a bloodline that will lead to the coming of the
Messiah.

It wasn't Bat Sheva's nudity that got Uriel the Hittite killed,
it was David's lechery, and envy off him.

I certainly hope that you don't believe that sunbathing on the beach (in a bathing suit or otherwise) can be a cause of death by anything beyond perhaps skin cancer.

You are so correct - i was referring to the flying spaghetti monster!
I hope I don't get in trouble with his holy pasta-iness for what can only be considered heresy...

: )

Mike Darnell

Digital Art from Jerusalem

Are you a rabbi?  Maybe I should disregard everything you say as well, including the "beit din" you refer to, just as you ignore the TALMUD and RAMBAM I refer to.  Seriously.  How do I know you can not verify my quotations?  You can read can't you?  Certainly looks like you can type.  Don't be lazy and just ignore what references I've given you, among MANY.  Of course you can verify my quotations, and easily.  Go to a synagogue and look them up.  Don't know Aramit, Ivrit?  Get someone to help you, but better yet, learn Hebrew.  You're Jewish no?  Go to a Jewish bookstore and buy the Artscroll Talmud for the sections I referred you to, buy the English translation of the Mishneh Torah.  My quotations are not from hidden books.  It's just that people would generally rather live comfortabily and go with the flow than learn something which may greatly change their life-perspectives.

 And as for the beit din you mention, do you accept everything this beit din would say?  If so, why?  If not, why?  If sometimes yes sometimes no, why -- according to what standard of judgement?  I know hhareidi individuals who are in shock at how this "beit din" handled the situation.  Do you realize how often "beitei dinim" contradict CLEAR Talmudic law in our days, (and how greatly their contradicting Talmudic law has been increasing since the 13 hundreds?)

 We must use our brains and not take the easy way out.  This is our mistake.  In the words of the neviim, we perish for our lack of knowledge.

 And your point about bombs / terrorists -- I did not say that a woman must cover her face, eventhough Talmudic law does encourage such a practice in a place where such is the standard practice.  I think Hhazal would have changed their ruling regarding that in our situation, since modest attire is pretty meaningless if it truly endangers the public, which I agree it does in our days, here in Israel.  HaShem yaSil otani m'oyveinu l'ma'an shemo.

I think it is so awful that many of you are saying some really ridiculous things about this. The point is that if these women decide that this is what is right for them, telling them that it's wrong is as bad as telling them they shouldn't be allowed to wear mini skirts or tank tops.

Women who value modesty and want people to see them for what they are instead of their bodies are hard to come by, and I really respect these women for making a decision that so many don't agree with.

 I don't think it's saying that men can't control themselves or that a woman who shows her body is bad, it might simply say that these women don't want to be judged by trivial things like their looks, and that they respect themselves enough not to buy into the need to "impress" everyone with flawless skin or a skinny figure. It's a lot harder to do what you feel is right for you when it goes against what most view as normal or right. If these women want to do this, I say more power to them!

The woman supposedly heading this movement is now in custody for
what is turning out to be one of the severest cases of child abuse in
Israel's history. Her "Rabbi" fled the country and a request for
his extradition has been put out. Among the sordid details - sibling
incest, scorching, flogging, and the pouring of salt on open wounds -
all the details can be found in any Israeli newspaper (This is one reference out of a multitude - this is a top news story here now).

The
Haredi community is quietly ignoring the whole thing, busying itself
with the far more important issue of "will the Chometz ban be enforced
this year"

My thoughts:

If this is your piety. YOU CAN KEEP IT.
My guess is that G-d prefers thong-wearing-Chometz-eating-SLUTS over child -abusing-burka-wearing-REBBETZIN.

But then what do i know...

Mike
Jewish pop art to make you think

 And perhaps now, if their menfolk would shoot off ak-47's when stuck in traffic, their "countrymen" would accept them as mishpochah?