Jewish Heretics

The article that you linked to mentioned the Frankist themes in Adam Mickiewicz's (Poland's greatest poet, 19th century) PAN TADEUSZ.  I'm not sure about that--having translated the work myself) but I do know that has always been rampant speculation about the Frankist background of Mickiewicz himself.

http://myshkin2.typepad.com/mysh/

Frank was a follower of Shabbatai Tzvi, a Jew who was proclaimed Messiah and then converted to Islam. Some estimate that one third of all Jews at the time thought Shabbatei was the Messiah.

What is it with Jews and false Messiahs? Jesus...Shabbatei...Schneerson...

Why can't we just wait?

There's a Jewish saying, if you are planting a tree and hear the Messiah is coming, finish planting the tree before you rush out...

There's a most interesting website and online community run by Yakov Leib HaKohain, a modern-day follower of Shabbetai and Frank, descended from a family of same.  With the disclaimer that I don't subscribe to his beliefs in any way, here's the link:

http://www.donmeh-west.com/

That's crazy, yo!

 I'm off to check it out...

(And welcome back, you've been missed)

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

I found out about "YaLHaK," as he calls himself, some years ago when he started frequenting a now-defunct listserv on Jewish meditation, much to the consternation of some members, and not just the Orthodox ones.  Prior to this, the only modern-day Sabbateans I knew of were the relatively few remaining members of the Turkish Doenmeh (or Donmeh) sect, descendants of Jews who converted en masse to Islam in imitation of their messiah, and still await his return.

And thanks for the welcome back.  Though after last night, I was beginning to have regrets about returning.  A warning to me and others that troll-baiting can easily and scarily get out of hand.  Once again, I'm sorry, folks.

And by no means what we've been doing in your absence...

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

Can't vouch for the truth of this, but this is how I heard it: Frank believed that the moshiakh would arrive once all the sparks had been brought down, rather than elevated. So in order to hasten the arrival of the tarrying One, he sought to violate halakhah as egregiously as possible and bring avalanches of sparks plummeting down.

His Xtreme technique: Sodomizing prepubescent boys while reciting the shma and wearing tefillin.

That puts a different spin on the "We want Moshiach Now" campaign.

Oh, and regarding the Donmeh: I actually met one in Los Angeles. He said that there's more in Turkey than people think, but that because Turkish conspiracy-mongers are obsessed with the Donmeh, they've become even more secretive about their Judaic practicies than they were in the past.

Also, Jewcy contributor Stephen Suleyman Schwartz told me that he doesn't believe that Tzvi ever converted to Islam at all. He thinks that was a myth propagated by rabbis in order to more thoroughly invalidate the messianism around Tzvi. Schwartz thinks that the caliph just demanded Tzvi shut up and live in obscurity, and that that's what Tzvi did.

Also, Michael, don't worry at all about last night. Jewcy hasn't dealt with that sort of trolling before, we all just sort of responded off-the-cuff.

so a troll is anyone who disagrees with you?

Kidding.  Kidding.

Scholem, in his Sabbatai Zevi:  The Mystical Messiah (pp. 674-681) discusses the historical sources for Shabbatai's conversion at length.  There are apparently several contemporary sources for such, stemming from Turkish, rabbinic, Sabbatean and Christian authors.  One such account, by an anonymous French author, appeared in November 1666, mere weeks after the event.  Others came out within three years.  Although there are some discrepancies between these sources, all agree on the basics:  in mid-September 1666 (Sept. 15 being the most attested date), Shabbatai, as a prisoner, appeared before the sultan's court in Adrianople.  After the council interrogated him, he denied any messianic claims.  The council then told him that unless he either repudiated Judaism or produced a miracle--apparently through trial by ordeal--to prove he was the messiah, he would face death.  He then denounced Judaism vehemently, in the council's presence.  The sultan then received him as a convert, renamed him Mehemed Effendi, and gave him a paid honourary position of palace gatekeeper.

Nope, troll is someone who has decent arguments to make but opts for personal attacks instead.

so I guess you have to ban quite a few people who participated in that 'discussion'.

I was ordainded by the Jerusalem rabbinate.

And I have this to say to Yezevel or whatever your name is at the moment.

You are not a Ben Torah. You are an embarassment to any and every shomer mitzvot person.

You are guilty before G-d and the kahal of hillul HaShem.

I demand that you LEAVE THIS SITE IMMMEDIATELY and NEVER POST AGAIN.

As for the site administrators, REPORT ALL HIS IP'S TO ANY AND EVERY INTERNET COMPANY HE MAY BE USING, AND BE DONE WITH IT.

what am i guilty of? what will he report to the ISPs?

You will be accountable in atid lavo to HaShem for your averos of hillul HaShem and sinas chinam. If you persist in posting here it will only prove to the kahal and to HaShem yisbarach that you do not fear G-d. Your choice.

Sorry but with those authority are you throwing around orders in CAPITAL LETTERS?

Looks like he doesn't fear G-d, folks.

no, he just doesn't fear you. btw- you're not putting on a very convincing act.

Don't listen to Nehora and Maspik and those other wimps. Enough mollycoddling this dangerous cyberstalker pervert. Log his I.P.'s! Hire a security specialist if you have to! Turn him over the police NOW!!! [Uh...removed text that sounded rather like a threat of violence.]

Fed up, are you out of your freaking mind?

Calling me and others wimps, that's one thing.  Voicing your opposition to this guy, that's one thing.  But making death threats against him?  That is really beyond the pale.  You're much worse than he's ever been.

its funny how you can tell someone is a woman by their writing style.

btw- you just made a physical threat... and so you are liable for harassment.

Finally we agree on something.

also this irate woman's remark about 'cyberstalking pervert' is libelous. there has been no stalking here( whatever that means ) nor any indication of perversion. She could be guilty of defamation.

I'm pretty sure that in order to be defamed, one has to have an identity. I don't think you can technically "defame" an anonymous poster...

xoLaurel

Yeah. And in the meantime, THEY'RE gone and Yalhak's got hundreds of hits on Google and almost 60 thousand people coming to his website at www.donmeh-west.com to read and listen to his Neo-Sabbatian teachings.

What's that someone once said about the "last laugh?"

-- Aziz ben Yakov Leib

Thanks for mentioning me and the Donmeh West website. Azis is right, the Jewish meditation list-serv Michael first "met" me on is long gone, but I'm still here with hundreds of hits on Google, almost 60 thousand visitors to my website and 1000 members of Donmeh West itself.

By the way, there are as many as 50+ thousand hereditary Ma'aminim (secret followers of Sabbatai Zevi) in Turkey today, most of them very prominent in politics, arts, commerce and the sciences.

As for whether or not Sabbatai actually converted, as Michael Nehora points out there is plenty of historical evidence that he did. (See, for example, Gershom Scholem's detailed description of the same in Chapters 6-7 of his 1000 page opus, "Sabbatai Sevi: The Mystical Messiah" published in the Bollingen Series of Princeton University Press.)

The question is WHAT KIND of shahadah (conversion) did Sabbatai make? It appears, according to Scholem, that he did not make the customary shahadah by reciting, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu" ("I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, the One, without any partner. And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger"), but instead was only required to remove his Jewish turban and replace it with a Muslim one -- an equally common but possibly less binding form of conversion.

For more about Sabbatai's apostasy and what it meant then and now, see my essay, "A Critical Re-Assessment of Sabbatai Zevi" at http://www.donmeh-west.com/re-evaluation.shtml on the Donmeh West website.

Yalhak

And even more important is the fact that although he "converted" to Islam, Sabbatai never actually PRACTICED it but, with the full knowledge of the Sultan, continued his activities as the messiah to those Jews who remained faithful to him -- something for which Islamic law required he should have been put to death, but which the Sultan refused to do.

In fact, according to Scholem, "The surprising fact that Sabbatai had not been executed immediately [by the Sultan of Turkey] as a rebel was considered conclusive proof of his messianic character. The respectful behavior of the Turks toward Sabbatai was noted in several letters from Constantinople to correspondents abroad." (Sabbatai Sevi: The Mystical Messiah, 1978)

Yalhak

Sorry, that last P.S. was from me, not "Anonymous." I'm not quite used to commenting on your blog. It's set up differently than SevenFatCow where I sometimes contribute my two-cents worth.

Yalhak