Atheism Sells

Now one of the not-so-many points of detail I agree with in Dawkins is that truth matters, so that's for me a valid argument for the defense of a, if you will, evangelical atheism. Closely related is the idea that, although I absolutely agree with you that religion isn't the only excuse for conflicts (I think Sam Harris is more precise than Dawkins about this), there certainly is a huge investement of time/resources/efforts into religious stuff that could be better spent most of the time by investing it into science. In my humble opinion. Now I tend to be a cynic and a coward, and therefore I believe in compromise while we slowly help the world come to its senses, if it ever can.

I think tons more money should be spent on science, too, but being religious is good for your health--both mental and physical.  Two summers ago I read a book called Heat Wave, A Social Autopsy of Disaster in Chicago by Eric Klinenberg. Hundreds of senior citizens died during the heat wave, and part of the reason a lot of them died was because they didn't have any social networks.  Religion is good if for the connections it makes alone.  In my opinion, I guess.

Errrr... not convinced of the public health evidence, here. But this doesn't mean that your social network should be religious (I think Sam Harris proposes some atheistic replacement, but I'm not sure about this, haven't read that far yet) -a Japanese Aikido master suggested once that martial arts could replace religion(s) as an organised ritual. Now THAT would really be good for your health (sports are always good). Also, I think that what the heat wave disasters have meant, mostly, is that 'modern' populations don't care for their elderly.

I think you're right that that's the general message, I was just using it as an example of a time when being a member of a church or synagogue had real and concrete benefit for people. They had members checking up on them, and so they didn't die. It's pretty simplistic, but it saved lives. As for evidence of religion being good for public health, check out this article from WebMD
http://www.webmd.com/news/20000809/religious-people-live-longer-than-non... that basically says:

• People who are involved with religion tend to live longer, overall, than their nonreligious counterparts.
• It's unclear exactly why, but research suggests it may be partly a result of increased social support from other members of the religious organization.
• Another possible factor is that core beliefs of major religions tend to encourage healthy lifestyles and foster positive social interactions.

Who says going to shul doesn't accomplish anything?

One of humanities biggest problems is its passion for simple answers in the face of the fearful, difficult problems of life. Religion at its worst aggressively pushes overly simplistic solutions, and tries to eliminate anyone who threatens the faith of those with "the answer".
A problem with the worst of the atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens, both of whom write self-indulgent, hateful, pseudo-philosophical pap, is that they are doing the same thing. "religion is the problem". In todays chaotic world, this appeals to many simplistic thinkers. "Ah", the problem is not more complicated than that, and has nothing to do with me- it's them, the religious people.
"The Jews" "The Muslims" "The Pagans" or those who disagree with the party, it's all the same. Hashem, please bless us with the remembrance of the evil of hatred and the strength to embrace both clarity and complexity, both action and patient tolerance. Selah.

Like Francois, I remain unconvinced by the "social support system" argument.

Lots of "goods" of the sort your heatwave example describes can emerge from unsavory conditions. I can avoid street crime by living in a gated community. But isn't the question, "Why is there so much street crime"? Similarly, you'd probably survive the heat wave in prison or a hospital, but you wouldn't promote those as reasonable strategies.

The point is that the measure of "surviving a heat wave" is too narrow too be of much use. What else comes along with the solution? Being tied to IV lines? Living behind bars? Or, in your case, believing in the unverifiable and supernatural?

No one will argue that community is a bad thing. The question is, why ground that community in something like religion (which, by the way, severs community in the sense that it divides us on the dimension of whether we like burning bushes more than the tablets of Moroni)?

A larger question is whether or not we should be grounding religion in the sort of calculus your post implies, i.e., whether or not it supplies a more or less short-term advantage. Should believers believe because they get some concrete benefit out of it? Do Muslims and Jews avoid pork because they lessen the risk of trichonosis, or because that's what God wants them to do?

I'm not much for religion at all, but the notion of religion as a lifestyle that makes one more adaptively fit really turns me off, since 1) that end can be achieved more expeditiously and with less exclusion by other ways, and 2) it seems to me to de-mystify religion, and the ineffable and mysterious aspects of religion are its most interesting and unique.

First, let me briefly note that I agree with Gindin that extremism on either side is bad -as I noted earlier, I think religion is at best an 'excuse' for violence, the latter happens frequently enough outside of a religious context for us to know that a fully atheistic world would probably be as violent. Now onto the study cited by Tamar. It seems to me that the reviewer from WebMD didn't pay close enough attention to what was said in the study ("Religious Involvement and Mortality: A Meta-Analytic Review" by McCullough et al., May 2000 issue of Health Psych.). What seems to happen is that what is referred to as "public religious involvment" (i.e. when you go to church/temple/etc. versus "private" involvment through individual prayer, etc., the latter showing no positive correlation with mortality) is an indicator of good health habits generally. Mostly, it seems that the people who go to religious services are less frequently obese than others. (A common sense explanation that I haven't verified in the literature would be that obese people tend to go out less.) This would be a significant enough factor to explain the connection between reduced mortality and religious involvment. Indeed, it is this precise connection that the researchers recommend be investigated in further studies, and they write in conclusion: "Although part of the religious involvement–mortality association may be a product of confounding, much of the association may be substantive, perhaps mediated by health-promotive behaviors, such as maintaining a healthy body mass." Now there are many other ways to maintain a healthy body mass. Fighting obesity is a public health priority in the US, and there are planty of measures other than religious involvment that can achieve the same goal. As a matter of fact, I would be interested to see a study comparing regular gym users to regular church-goers: gyms will provide you with a social context as well, while sports would likely improve the practicioners' health in many more ways than religious involvment would.
And if you insist on looking at the religion factor, you may want to adjust your perception in a more traditionally depressive and pessimistic Jewish way: the study you used is a meta-study which deliberately ignored differences in specific religious practices. Other studies show that "counties with concentrations of Jews, liberal Protestants (eg, Episcopalians, Presbyterians), and nonreligious persons tend to have elevated suicide and cancer mortality rates, statistically controlling for numerous covariates." ("Religious involvement and adult mortality in the United States: review and perspective", Hummer et al., in Southern Medical Journal,  12/04). Oy vey!

Hey, quit talking about atheists like we're not here! Jews, of all people, should know how it feels to be in the minority opinion. Just because I believe that liberal theology is as indefensible as fundamentakist theology does not make me your enemy. Just because the 3 biggest atheists in print are dicks does not make the rest of us dicks. All I would ask is the same respect that you would ask for yourself.

I have nothing against atheists, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to be more religious, or religious at all.  All I'm saying is that being part of a Jewish community, being a member of a shul or a kehillah, seems to be good for you.  And not all violence is done in the name of God.  We kill each other over far less important things. 

 Take another look at the last paragraph of the post, k?

I've seen an awful lot of atheist bashing, both here and at Talk to Action and at Tikkun. It's usually followed by one of those "I'm not racist, but..." statements. Oh, and "chilling out about the 10 commandments" amounts to "you're outnumbered, so give up and we'll like you more." I don't like being told that as an atheist or as a Jew (yes, obviously you can be both).

Tamar, you can't say you have nothing against atheists, and then call us things like frum atheists and assholes (previous column) when we defend our beliefs.

Hitchens said religion kills. He didn't say it was the only thing that killed.

Ruth Gledhill over at Articles of Faith
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2007/05/is_all_religion.html links to a place where you can ask Hitchens questions which he'll respond to by Tuesday.  If anyone is interested, go check it out.

Adults with invisible friends are stupid. "And not all violence is done in the name of God. We kill each other over far less important things." Yeah ok compare the numbers moron, how many people die of religion, and compare that to people who die over "petty" things. And thanks to the person who said "I'm not racist but..." That is exactly what this is.

Anthony, I'm trying to see your point, but having a lot of trouble.  How is my disagreeing with atheists racism? 

Also, you don't die "of religion" you might die because of an fanatically religious leader who makes bad choices and puts you in harms way, but it's not religion per se that kills you.  

Also, calling me a moron doesn't really promote healthy dialogue.  THough it doesn't look like you're interested in that, anyway.

"Also, you don't die 'of religion' you might die because of an fanatically religious leader who makes bad choices and puts you in harms way, but it's not religion per se that kills you.

By that argument, no ideology is responsible for the harm it causes. It's merely the individual, bad choices of the people following it.

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