Tue, May 13, 2008

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DIALOGUE
Bomb Iran Now
Only fierce military action can stop the Atomic Ayatollahs

A nuclear-armed Iran will be as catastrophic as "Hitler marching into the Rhineland," said John Bolton last week, eliciting headlines, hosannas, and seething rebukes from all over the planet with his call to get serious about preemptive military action against Iran.

"John Bolton for President!" cried the giddy apparatchiks at Commentary, where Zeyda Podhoretz earns loving, indulgent smiles this month as he inveighs against the Shia Islamofascists of Tehran. But the thought of an atomic ayatollah has got even the odd Guardian contributor feeling twitchy enough to offer a few words in support of Bolton. Now that's a tipping point.

Should we bomb Iran? That's this week's Big Question, put to Michael Freund of the Jerusalem Post and Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com. Through Thursday afternoon, they'll argue action vs. inaction, warmongering vs. appeasment, bombing vs. diplomacy. Freund leads.

 

From: Michael Freund
To: Justin Raimondo
Subject: Bomb Iran Now

Justin,

A few weeks ago, a celebration took place in Tehran that may come to mark a turning point in the history of the Middle East and the entire Western world.

Just as he had been promising for months, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announced onCelebrating "National Nuclear Day": Iranian performance artists lift empty uranium vials to the heavensCelebrating "National Nuclear Day": Iranian performance artists lift empty uranium vials to the heavens April 9th a dramatic expansion of his country’s ability to enrich uranium, triumphantly declaring that 3,000 centrifuges had begun operating at the Natanz nuclear facility in central Iran. Centrifuges—which spin and purify uranium gas—produce enriched uranium that can then be used to build a nuclear weapon.

Recently, the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies estimated that once Natanz’s 3,000 centrifuges become operational, it could take as little as nine months for Iranian scientists to generate enough enriched uranium to make an atomic bomb.

So no wonder the day of Ahmadinejad’s announcement was celebrated across Iran as “national nuclear day.” It indicated that by the end of this calendar year, the ayatollahs could very well have their hands on the ultimate weapon of mass destruction.

Iran cannot and must not be allowed to acquire nukes. Israel and the U.S. simply cannot stand by and watch as Tehran goes nuclear and threatens the entire civilized world.

The only way to stop the Atomic Ayatollahs is with potent military action—fast, furious, and fierce. And soon.

The press loves to mock the Iranian president, portraying him as a nut, a kook, and a fanatic. But I take him at his word. He has made quite clear what his objective is, telling us over and over again that he plans to eliminate Israel and destroy the West.

Like it or not, we are all in his crosshairs, and we ignore him at our peril. And that is why it is time to show a little more couThey've Got us in Their Crosshairs: The Ayatollahs of Iran's "Guardian Council"They've Got us in Their Crosshairs: The Ayatollahs of Iran's "Guardian Council"rage and a lot more determination, and to tackle this threat head-on.

The fact of the matter is that diplomacy has run its course. Its only effect has been to give the Iranians still more time to progress toward achieving their malicious aims.

After the UN Security Council passed a resolution in December insisting that Iran end its uranium-enrichment program, Ahmadinejad dismissed it as “a piece of torn paper” and vowed to expand his country’s nuclear program, which is precisely what he proceeded to do.

For more than a decade, Iran hid its nuclear program from the international community. Its government has interfered with inspections of its nuclear facilities, and repeatedly defied demands to cease and desist from its dangerous actions.

Does anyone really think another UN resolution, and more empty words, are going to do the trick?

And while the West dilly-dallies, the ayatollahs have been busy expanding their military arsenal. Back in November, Iran test-fired dozens of missiles, including the Shihab-3, which is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead and can hit targets up to 1,200 miles away—meaning that all of Israel is now within reach.

And if anyone still doubts Ahmadinejad’s intentions, he made them abundantly clear at the Holocaust denial conference he hosted in Tehran back in December. In his closing speech, the would-be Persian executioner gleefully declared that, “The life-curve of the Zionist regime has begun its descent, and it is now on a downward slope towards its fall…. The Zionist regime will be wiped out, and humanity will be liberated.”

And once he dispenses with the Jews, as we know, it is the West that will be next. So this is not just Israel’s battle, it is everyone’s war, and it is time for the decision-makers in Washington and Jerusalem to act.Action Will Be Scary, Inaction Would Be Terrifying: We must avoid nuclear blackmailAction Will Be Scary, Inaction Would Be Terrifying: We must avoid nuclear blackmail

Sure, the thought of striking Iran is scary, particularly in light of the trouble America is having next door in Iraq. But as frightening as the idea might seem, it pales in comparison with the prospect of the ayatollahs having their finger on the button and being able to threaten the world with nuclear blackmail and destruction.

We must stop Iran at all costs. The alarm bells are ringing, and the danger signs are near. Like it or not, time is of the essence, and there is not a moment to lose. The U.S. or Israel should bomb Iran now, before it proves to be too late.

Michael Freund

NEXT: Leave America out of it. Iran is no threat to the USA.


Michael Freund is Founder and Chairman of Shavei Israel. He writes a syndicated column and feature stories for the Jerusalem Post, Israel´s leading English-language daily, and he previously served as


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FGFM


Michael Freund

Why does anyone take this assclown seriously?

Michael Freund is Founder and Chairman of Shavei Israel (www.shavei.org), which reaches out and assists "lost Jews" seeking to return to the Jewish people. He writes a syndicated column and feature stories for the Jerusalem Post. Previously, he served as Deputy Director of Communications & Policy Planning in the Israeli Prime Minister´s Office under former premier Benjamin Netanyahu. A native of New York, he holds an MBA in Finance from Columbia University and a BA from the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University. He has lived in Israel for the past decade.





Adam Shprintzen


Wow...

Such a nuanced critique FGFM.





Anonymous


Repeat after me

NO MORE WARS FOR ISRAEL.

Freund, the Israeli double agent, has no right to expect Americans to support his apartheid country with their taxpayer dollars. I vehemently oppose having my tax dollars go into fighting Israel's wars.





Retired Military Officer


Zionism is fascism

Oh please. Jimmy Carter (like Ron Paul on Iraq) tells apathied like it is.

For a start Michael Freund must be stopped at all costs . . .

It is Israel and its US christian lap top bombadier dogs that want to wipe Iran of the face of Mother Earth. The Zionists have the wacko Christians fighting it out with the extremist Muslims in Iraq and thus the Zionists must be very pleased for the moment.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6411679.html
What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus
by David Klinghoffer, Religion BookLine -- Publishers Weekly, 1/31/2007

What exactly is so scandalous? How about Jesus punished in Hell for eternity by being made to sit in a cauldron of boiling excrement? That image appears in early manuscripts of the Babylonian Talmud, as does a brief account of Jesus' trial and execution—not by the Romans but by the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin. The Jewish community, to the extent Jews were even aware of these excised texts, has been content to let them remain obscure and unknown.





Joey Kurtzman


Oy

Thus far, the comments to this dialogue make me think "oy". Especially once the Talmud stuff starts. Oy squared.





Anonymous


michael fraud

israel has 200 nukes, probably half of which are pointed at iranian cities, and we're supposed to believe that iran is an existential threat to israel and the rest of the so-called "civilized world." his comment, "And once he dispenses with the Jews, as we know, it is the West that will be next. So this is not just Israel’s battle, it is everyone’s war, and it is time for the decision-makers in Washington and Jerusalem to act," is the pinnacle of disingenuousness. if this pathetically shallow, neocon worldview weren't so freaking dangerous, it would be laughable.





Anonymous


Bomb Iran

Gee whiz what is all the worry about Iran getting the bomb in a year or ten years. One coup in Pakistan by the Taliban, and the Taliban and Al Queda/ OBL have some 100 real tested nukes at their disposal....Yes the sky is falling, Iran with a nuke in ten years vs the taliban with 100 tomorrow. Are we stupid of what.





Canadian truth seeker


ISS does NOT state what M Fraud says it said

The ISS article says: "In reality, Iran is still experiencing technical difficulties with its centrifuge machines and is at least several years away from achieving a truly commercial-scale enrichment capability." How does this charlatan get away with alleging that means nuclear weapons capability, which requires a much higher manufacturuing capability, by the end of the year? What kind of website is this that would publish such outright lies???





Anonymous


Bombing Iran can wait.

I figure that Iran is twenty years from having a bomb. They need to enrich Uranium for their power plant.





Anonymous


First of all

Let's give Israel the bill for the war in Iraq that we fought for them. $2 trillion and counting.





Anonymous


Why Not a Nuclear-free Middle East?

Why not have both Iran and Israel completely purge their lands of all nuclear weaponry? There was a time when Israel may have had a strong justification for such weapons, as a matter of survival. But today, Israel is clearly the dominant military force in the Middle East - most certainly so in terms of advanced technology, air power, and ultra-lethal firepower - if not in absolute numbers of soldiers. And this doesn't even mention the nearly unqualified support Israel can count on from the vast American arsenal, and probably from various European powers too!

So, why should Treaty-signing, recently-peaceful, and relatively well-inspected Iran, give up all nuclear materials of any kind, while at the same time allowing militarily-aggressive, non-Treaty-signing, super-secretive, never-inspected Israel to retain (without so much as even officially acknowledging [except by mistake]) what is widely known to be one of the most sophisticated, highly-weaponized nuclear arsenals of any non-superpower nation in the whole world! - can this ultimatum now being put to Iran be the product of sane, literate adults?

Then again, for those who bought the Lebanese-border-guards-started-it excuse (like the 1940 Nazi Wehrmacht into Poland rationale?) for last years' brutal, barbarian assault on all parts of democratic Lebannon - the nuclear "offer" to Iran probably seems perfectly fair and reasonable too!





lester


what about the day after the

what about the day after the attack on iran? how come none of these experts ever talk about that? like when jews all over the world are targetted for retaliation by angry muslims and other angry people who have to watch the world economy come to a halt because of oil going up past 200 a barrel.

what about the day after, zionist guy?





David


re: the day after

If you've seen recent figures for "aliyah,", you'd understand why, far from being shocked by the anti-Jewish scenario you paint, Zionists are desperate for it.





Anonymous


Iran's nuclear capability

In The Book of Lists, Iran is mentioned as one of the "nations that can blow us up in 7-10 years." The source cited is intelligence findings of the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy. The date is April 1976.





Alexander Baldal


zionist suicide

Na-Zionism is losing control it had over world sentiment with its worn out Hollocause propaganda plot and its ongoing Palistinian genocide program. Desparate to regain control it seeks to provoke Iran to bomb USrahel to smithereens. After that happens the Zionists will lament and cry and get back the sympathy they lost in recent years. Iran is not likely to fall in the trap.





Anonymous


Bored Islamofacist Jew-hater needs a life.

It's obvious that the pro-Iran Islamofacist comments are from the same person or I should say sub-human. Do us all a favor and please move to Iran where you can have an orgy of Jew-hatred with the peodphile Islamic clerics. Iran is where the apartheid, sexist, racist, Islamofacists are murdering minority groups and beating up women to a bloody pulp everyday.
Thw world would be a better place if the Middle East were bombed, except for Israel. The world is sick of the Arab Muslim barbaric, psychotic, evil sub-humans!





Anonymous


Sounds like someone forgot to take their meds.

"Palestinian" genocide? You can't kill people who have never existed. Of course the Holcoaust did exist because we do have proof of that. It's actually the Arabs who are committing genocide against the Jews. The reason that Arabs like Alexander hate the Jews so much is because of jealousy. Arabs are inferior to Jews and need them to survive. What have the Arabs accomplished besides finding new ways to murder? NOTHING! Arabs are savages and will always be losers!





Anonymous


talk about subhuman....

Anon. 5:22am and Anon 5:32 are obviously the same person. Kind of shocking that it took him (her?) 10 minutes to come up with that snappy second post.





Anonymous


its actually funny

i mean what does one say, wow arabs are inferior to jews which jews ? semitic jews since anti-semitism is the buzz word ? wait are semites arabs at least they started out as arabs when did they transform into eastern europeans and russians ?????? did anyone tell Moses :) come on look like any empire or fiefdom if you want to rape and pillage anothers land, resources, beliefs, etc. atleast have the balls to just do it like the Nike commercial says or like the great Khan's but this is pathetic do you guys really believe this bs your spouting ???? WOW





Alexander Baldal


love your neighbour

Who is a Jew? One who follows the Jewish religion, Torah and Talmud, or one who is born from a "Jewish" mother and never ever has looked in a religious book or synagogue and does not follow any Jewish ceremony? Once we get that clear we can talk if I have any hatered and for whom. Why have [religious] Jews been prosecuted, massacred, pestered, murdered and chased from Palestine and the rest of the world for as long as recorded history exists? As they cheat and dominate and discreminate against all goyim? Why do they recite the "Kol Nidre" prayer to undo any and all promise to goyim every year? How therefore can a religious Jew ever be trusted? The Talmud is so full of shit that all who calls himself a religious Jew must be sick in the head. Those who do not follow the Jewish religion but got stamped "Jew" because by accident or design their mother was Jewish, better get rid of that hate provoking religion at once. Become a Buddhist, Atheist, Theosophe or Baul, but get rid of the hopeless sorry stamp "Jew".





Anonymous


Israel should bomb Iran!

Hey,I'm from Israel and I have no doubt that if Iran will have a bomb,Israel will have a serious problem.
Iran is a significant threat!!!
I hope one day we will teach these mother fuckers a big lesson.
DON'T MESS WITH ISRAEL!!!

I love Israel!!!!and don't forget that you have this lovely country!!:D





Alexander Baldal


Peadophile Rabbis

The word ot title "Rabbi" means teacher. Please check this video on Youtube of how these Jewish "teachers" behave. If that is not repulsive and disgusting, than what is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqoGiSi0HUo
The Talmud allows Jews to have sex with children, look that horrible information up and love it.





Alexander Baldal


how many did god kill

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html
There you can read how nice the Jewish god is, as he killed 2,270,369 people in the old testament alone.
Obviously a few million Iranians more will make that god even nicer!





Alexander Baldal


Anonymus, my foot

The Talmud is a record of Rabbic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs.
Included are rules regarding sexual behavior.
The Talmud has two main components: the Mishnah, the first compendium of Judaism's
Oral Law; and the Gemara which is
a discussion of the Mishnah and writings.

We urge the skeptical reader to write down all the Talmud references
and read the twisted quotes directly from the jews book. It is pure evil.
The Talmud is available at: www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm
We have also included in this article the definitions of various words
that the reader may or may not be familar with.

Religion in the Talmud attempts to penetrate the whole of jewish life
with A twisted sense of what is wrong and right. Nothing is trivial;
everything is regulated and sanctified by their false religion. Religious precept and duty accompany the Kike from their earliest years to the grave and beyond it. The goal of the Talmud is to guide the desires and actions
of the Heb at every moment. The talmud is about controlling jew behavior.

The Kikes holy book the Talmud permits Marriage and sexual intercourse between children and adults and endorses a number of other vile, sickening sexual perversions that are most worthy of death.
The Pedophilic doctrine is contained in a number of Talmudic Mishnahs.

"WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED..."
— Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a

Let's review the above Mishnah: "When a grown-up man has had sexual intercourse with a little girl, or when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman …" It is obvious that sex activity between a grown man and a little girl, and between a grown woman and a little boy, is a part of everyday Talmud life; such relationships are ordinary. There is no prohibition on sexual activity between adults and young children it is
simply just regulated activity. This is just the beginning of the perversions...

"Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty " Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 54b

What is Pederasty?
Homosexual sex with a minor.

"A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his." Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 55b

What is Coition? Hetrosexual sex.

The Talmud allows female babies three years old and younger to be legally raped by adults, that is jewish law. The only concern for the Kike "Holy Men"
is to ensure that the adult is not, technically speaking, in violation of
any of these evil talmudic rules. Whether or not the perverted action is
acceptable just doesn't come into question.





Anonymous


Nuking thoughts

If Israel were to Nuke Iran, just maybe Pakistan would NUKE Israel. Israel can't continue to have it all!





Josh Strawn


Gross

Mr. Baldal, you remind me of the person who left the rather disgusting comment above that the Middle East should be bombed except Israel and the other jerk who is eager to 'teach those [Iranian] motherfuckers a lesson.'  The conflation of Iran's population with its fascistic, fanatical leadership is as absurd as imagining that George W. Bush speaks for a majority of Americans.  America, Israel and Iran each prove that one of the best ways to unify a diverse and divided society is through bad leadership.  How many Israeli citizens protested Israel's war in Lebanon in the 1980s?  How many Iranians despise the mullahs?  In Tehran, men dressed in clerical garb can barely catch a taxi!!  But whereas some unfairly conflate a population with its leadership, you've conflated a religion with a state with it's population.  Not to say the superstition in the Talmud presents no problems to good governance--but Israelis don't march lock-step behind their leaders, nor is there any shortage of Jews hostile to religion and superstition.  The Jewish God couldn't have killed 2,270,369 people because he (thankfully) just doesn't exist.  But you've come round espousing your own brand of hateful superstition--another variation on the bitch got it cause she was askin' for it.  When Israeli politicians say this about Palestinian militants do you accept the same logic?  I don't imagine so--nor do I, generally.  So why accept it in relation to Jews?  Somewhere in the double standard, that's where the hatred can be found.  Neither Palestinians nor Jews nor Muslims are 'sub-human,' neither is 'asking for' the persecution they endure or have endured, and to say so is outright bigotry on the part of whoever utters such a thing.  Congratulations--you've dug up some unsavory facts about the screwed up way of doing things peculiar to one group of people from a time when screwed up ways of doing things were common to all humans.  A thousand years ago you could throw a rock in the air and be sure to hit somebody guilty of selling women, having sex with children, killing people for their tribe/race/religion.  You can also find a book demanding and/or justifying all of the above as well.  That you think there's something special about the Talmud or the Jewish faith is the real problem.  You know, I've noticed you say 'Zionist' quite a lot.  I grew up in the Southern U.S., where plenty of racism still lingers.  One thing I always noticed, and this applies as much to you as to the ass above who is sick of all the 'sub-human' Muslims--the proliferation of certain designations and epithets are usually a signal of some pathological preoccupation and, almost inevitably of an irrational and consuming hatred.                                   





Brian


Big Men!

I think some of these posters need to get laid or reunite with their estranged child or something.  Because if you really think that Jews are rotten to the core, then don't get a polio vaccine, you weasel-mouthed hypocrites. And if you want to live an existence pure of Jewish taint, go live in a cave. And take an idol with you so you can pray prayers safe from the influence of Judaism.

You think you'd be safe and happy away from the contributions that Jews made to science, art, law and morality?  You think you'd last a day stationed on the border of a country full of unemployed men who were taught to read on books portraying you as a vampire?

And yet, here we are with people who know how to turn on a computer and log onto the internet, thinking they are wise enough to blame Jews for their problems and be accurate at the same time.  Meanwhile, on the forefront of every peace movement, every movement to end Israel's occupation of the West Bank are Jews.  75-80% of Jewish campaign contributions in America go toward Democratic candidates.  But you still feel more comfortable blaming us for beating drums of war.

I'm a Jew and I wouldn't shake Michael Freund's hand. Nor Netanyahu's.  Nor Perle's, nor Podhoretz's.  But Retired Military Officer and Alexander Baldal, if I ever came face to face with either one of y'all, you'd better hope your health insurance is current.





Alexonymous


Nazionism

Zionism, I call it NaZionism, the way it abuses Jewish religion to further its expansion in the Middle East.
The whole sick idea of any and all religion is disgusting. Everybody who "believes" this or that religion is a true mental zombie.
I have no respect for any man who follows century old books with fervor, bordering on madness, to impose any religious rule or doctrine. To let religion lead politics is to let the blind lead the lame.





lester


"Irving Kristol, writing in

"Irving Kristol, writing in 1973 (in Congress Bi-Weekly, a publication of the American Jewish Congress):

Senator McGovern is very sincere when he says that he will try to cut the military budget by 30%. And this is to drive a knife in the heart of Israel... Jews don't like big military budgets. But it is now an interest of the Jews to have a large and powerful military establishment in the United States... American Jews who care about the survival of the state of Israel have to say, no, we don't want to cut the military budget, it is important to keep that military budget big, so that we can defend Israel. "

Brian- boo hoo. if you don't like people hating jews do something about the neo cons





lester


" Here, for instance, is

" Here, for instance, is Norman Podhoretz, neocon godfather, writing about the centralness of Israel, in Breaking Ranks (1979):

There was, to be sure, one thing that many of even the most passionately committed American Zionists were reluctant to do, and that was to face up to the fact that continued American support for Israel depended upon continued American involvement in international affairs-- from which it followed that an American withdrawal into the kind of isolationist mood that prevailed most recently between the two world wars, and that now looked as though it might soon prevail again, represented a direct threat to the security of Israel
"

both quotes from Phil Weiss's blog





CaptainZen


threatening ?/

Hi Brian, well said! I will update my health insurance right away. Your advice is well taken, and if you are a general standard kind of Jew, it shows/explains clearly why Jews all over the world are hated, progromed, Shoaded, Crystal Nighted, getthoed and finally herded (by the Nazionists) in their own gettho Usrahell. Threatening and scaring others has been the trademark of the fearfull Jewish god.
Better have them in one place than all over the place, is what the Europeans, (Balfour and clique) must have thought 60-70 years ago. Paranoya to the extreme, armed to the teeth, with 200+ nukes they now menace to radiation-bomb the precious oil fields if the USA does not fight their wars. Disgusting.





Anonymous


NaziAlexander;It's barbaric Islam that condones rape and murder.

Do you do anything else but obsess about Jews all day? That's a rhetorical question obviously. You are an ignoramus. Palestine is just another name for Israel and has never belonged to the Arabs. Palestine has never existed as a country or does it refer to a people. It is the Arabs who have stolen the Jewish land and murdered Jews. Arabs/Muslims like you are usless and don't deserve to be called human.
The Arabs are sexist, homphobic, pedophiles, goat-fuckers who don't even wipe their ass with toilet paper. They have beheaded and eaten the human organs of their victims. Calling them savages is an insult to savages.
If you Jews so much then why don't you boycott everything that the Jews invneted or had part in creating? You would have to start with your computer and go on from there. You would end up living like a barbarian which you already are so that wouldn't make a difference, except for your qulaity of life.
There is a lot of hatred in the world for the Arabs who are pieces of trash and have no use to humanity. Only Nazis and Islamofacists are psychotic enough to think that the world hates the Jews. No cares if Iran is bombed only "people" like the Nazi Islamofacist terrorists who comment here.





Anonymous


Captain Islam; Islamofacists like yourself threaten people

Only evil "people" hate Jews. Israel is the homeland of the Jews and they have every right to defend themselves against sub-human murderous scum. What is disgusting are terrorist Islamofacist Nazis like yourself.
It's actually Arabs and Muslims who are hated all over the world and for good reason. They are blood-thirsty savages who love to murder, rape and stand for everything that is evil in this world. You will never win against the Jews!





CaptainZen


I observe, I need not "win"

The Stern Gang with Begin and the Hagganah, and Sharon the Butcher, they were the good terror boys who helped it all get started. Getting rid of the "scum" that lived there for many generations and centuries. Funny guys who claim a piece of land given to them by their imaginary "god".

This planet Earth is mine and there are a lot of idiots I would rather see gone, the Na-Zionists, all religious leaders, the leaders of most countries and a few more: those that blindly follow them.





CaptainZen


What you don't know

I have been many times in paranoya Israhel. First in Haifa, Ashdod and later Eilat, also Jerusalem and Rishon. Bombs went off at the market place where I had just bought my oranges. I took a Sabra girl of 18 away from there. She lives now in Brazil with our "Jewish" son. Her Sabra mother and grandmother, both born there, told me of the time before the Stern Gang brought Terror and upset the peace.They lament the creation of Israhel and so do I.





Anonymous


A people that never

A people that never existsed!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6659239.stm





Josh Strawn


Holy Shit!!

Anonymous said: "Arabs/Muslims like you are usless and don't deserve to be called human. The Arabs are sexist, homphobic, pedophiles, goat-fuckers who don't even wipe their ass with toilet paper. They have beheaded and eaten the human organs of their victims...Arabs who are pieces of trash and have no use to humanity."  And another: "It's actually Arabs and Muslims who are hated all over the world and for good reason. They are blood-thirsty savages who love to murder, rape and stand for everything that is evil in this world."  

Let's get one thing straight: people who speak like this about any racial, religious or ethnic group are the ones who "stand for everything that is evil in this world."  There are few things more absurd and pathetic than watching somebody use terms like 'sexist' and 'homphobic' as terms of derision and in almost the same breath accuse an entire race and a whole religion of 'goat fucking' and cannibalism.  Seeing someone put the word "people" in scare quotes literally makes my stomach queasy.  Maybe you can answer something for me--why don't you attach your name to your comments?  Why do so many hatemongers like the KKK and Islamofascists and various others like yourselves so often tend to hide their faces and identities?  Is it because deep down, you know what you say and do is awful and you don't want the world to know its you?  What's the reason?  If you really believe it and stand behind it, why not sign your name and let us know precisely with whom we can associate these assertions?  Or is it because hate is borne of ignorance and cowardice and, even if you did know how to spell your own name, you'd be too chicken shit to put your money where your mouth is?  Just curious...         

 





Brian


Lester, most of your posts

Lester, most of your posts don't bother me. Sentimental Jewish attachment to the idea that Israel is a principled actor does have a wayward influence on American foreign policy and that bothers me.

But the actions that I take, what I DO about neocons, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, is done away from frickin' message boards.  This is a forum for discussion and for venting frustrations.  If you think posting an opinion is the same as doing something, that's sad.





Brian


Terror and Morality

Here a few facts: Israel has committed, and continues to commit heinous crimes. Many Jews still feel a deep affection and attachment to Israel.

But where you start saying that Jews' feelings toward Israel make them bad human beings, you don't rise above what bothers you. I would love it if Michael Freund had no influence at all. Someone said "assclown" and that seems about right. And if you think his and the other neocons' moment in the sun drags a cloud over all of us, that's about right too. But I would love a reasoned explanation for how this means that Jews are evil.

And Mr. Zen, your baiting pisses me off, but I still wish that your children grow wise, happy and strong, instead of getting rounded up and murdered by your lovely Brazilian government.





Captain Alexander


Good bye

Hi there, what baiting are you talking about?
My "jewish" son lives in Brazil, not me, I stay in the "West Indies" after I have seen the havoc in the West and the ME. No religion, no member of any group, no affiliation with any dogma or national idea, I am a free man, a nudist physically and mentally. No garb out or inside, and never will I dress myself in one of the idiot ideas that all you fighters do. I observe this sick world, populated with mental zombies, without love and understanding, good bye to all of you, stay put in your mind prisons, do not try to escape, freedom is too hard for you to live up to.





Brian


Huh?

So, from your Carribean paradise, where you are free of religion, ideology, stricture or violence of any kind, you log onto the internet and involve yourself in foreign policy debates?  Why?

Oh wait- I'm feeling the enlightenment. Wow- thanks!





lester


alexander I would rather

alexander I would rather perish in Stalins gulags that witness the horror of you nude with your gross ideology of new age worlds.

Brian- my point is whether we a re christian jewish or muslim we all own our extremists to a certain extent.





Brian


An interesting point

Lester, I hope I don't spoil our warm, fuzzy civility, but how can you own an extremist "to a certain extent?" Wouldn't your ownership cease while the extremist just keeps on going?  On the other hand, I know what you're saying and that's why I brought up the point that, while the neocons are alligned with the Republican Party, the vast majority of American Jewish campaign contributions, not mention time and energy, goes to Democrats. 

I love the bumper sticker that says, "The Christian Right is Neither," because, while it takes a swipe at sanctimony, it still has respect for faith through its implication that the owner of the vehicle would like to see more actual Christianity from the less tolerant sectors of evangelism. 

So yes, as a Jew, I'm doubly ashamed of and actively opposed to the Kristol boys and Norman Podhoretz. But I'm proud of Jews Against the Occupation, Jews for Social and Economic Justice, and, well, my own immediate family for being good peoples. 

But I shouldn't have to point out to anybody that there are good Jews and bad Jews, just to make sure nobody gets mad at me. That's bullshit, man!





lester


brian-have you seen the

brian-have you seen the letters to the editor of the jerusalem times recently? It's madness. I know must jews aren't like that but enough of them are that it is cause for concern and action. There are people who are working towards making israel basically a part of the US. I drove by some building in Brookline mass the other day. I don't know what if it was a synagogue or not but it had an american gflag and an israeli flag flying side by side. Maybe i'm over reacting. Maybe a polish american place would have the poland flag and american flag flying side by side too, but in the current context of war in the middle east it was freaky.

the whole vibe from israels supporters seems to be that their problems are now ours. As if we did something to them. If you look at the rhetoric of the GOP that they get from AEI and whatnot on terrorism, it's hard to tell if they are talking about america or israel sometime. especially in this debate. My ancestors came to this country for the same reason the illegal immigrants are coming, prosperity and liberty. I'm not into this grand purpose spreading freedom shit. We freed the jews from the death camps, we don't persecute jews in our country. isn't that enough?





Josh Strawn


A more accurate way to think of this...

...is not as a dark, sinister American/Jewish conspiracy, but more so informed by the theory that liberal democracies do not go to war with one other and are intrinsic allies on a fundamental level.  This theory isn't without its problems and I'm not citing it here because I subscribe to it--I'm just saying the reasons for the American-Israeli alliance are more rational and theoretical than is the influence of Christian fundamentalism, the proposed Judeo-Christian alliance or proposed the neocon-Zionist 'hijacking,' and all that.  It's a larger, more far-reaching philosophy that probably informs policy far more than any of the aforementioned 'philosophies.'  But lester, do you not believe that freeing the Jews from deathcamps had positive ramifications for humanity as a whole?   I mean, if genocide is a crime against humanity, isn't the prevention of genocide a triumph for humanity?  I mean this in no way to advocate the bombing of Iran as a prevention of genocide--to me that notion is absurd.   I don't advocate the bombing of Iran.  But I also don't advocate the encroaching specter of isolationist thinking.  I think a majority of our problems today stem from short-sightedness in the face of unprecedented global interconnectedness and interaction.  Isolationism falls into that category of short-sightedness as far as I'm concerned.  Whatever happened to the notion that the human race isn't free as long as one human is in chains?  





lester


"Whatever happened to the

"Whatever happened to the notion that the human race isn't free as long as one human is in chains? "

it was killed by "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" long before the constitution





Brian


Paul Wellstone

Loudmouth Jewish extremists make me mad. Really mad. But I wouldn't ask anyone to cut me slack for taking this anger and applying it to a much larger body of American Jewry and I resent having to continue to point out that most of us are not down with being pro-Israel at the expense of patriotism for the greatest country in the history of the world.

You look around, you see it, fine. Don't weave it into a blanket. We wouldn't be having any of this conversation if we had a different occupant in the White House. 





Anonymous


Brian and Josh; Stupid Kapo Jews(?)

Stop sucking your Arab boyfriends dicks and stop being such dhimmis. Israel has not committed "heinous crimes" against the barbaric Arabs. Israel has shown too much restraint in dealing with the Arab savages who want to murder all the Jews and destroy Israel.
Only an anti-semitic would support a Neo-Nazi group like "Jews? against the occupation." This group is supported by terrorists like Hamas and the Plo. I doubt any of them are actually real Jews but they cause a lot of damage by claiming to be. Hilter would love these Nazis who are just like you guys.





Anonymous


Josh; I just found out you're not a Jew but an ignorant Gentile.

Now go away and write about something you actually know about. Did you know that Goth is so passe? It's sad that you think you look cool.

To the other idiot; "Palestinians" have never existed. They are just Arabs who are occupying Jewish land and are sub-human losers.





Anonymous


the chosen

one day americans will wake up and see how aipac has led us down the road to war...we offer our sons and daughters on their altar for their god (israel), but one day soon america will hear the rest of the story. american jews for the most part are as unawares as the rest of the country but the cabals that lead them under the banner of the zionist state of israel will be held responsible for their mischief, then unfortunately they will discover the meaning of the term blowback.





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