"The mere thought of veganism seems to provoke some people?"

Try: "The supercilious arrogance of some VEGANS seems to provoke some people." That's it exactly.

Try pointing some of that criticism at Charles. He's the one who was so busy congratulating himself for his superior moral choices in his quest for personal "purity" through veganism that he didn't bother to think that, perhaps, other vegans don't lump omnivores into neat categories where we can condescend to them, and we'd appreciate it if the favor was returned occasionally.

I don't know if this last response came across as arrogant but honestly, it was tiring to respond to someone point by point and have them manipluate my words or thoroughly ignore them. You simply can't begin a debate with "I cannot respond to all your arguments at once, due to space restrictions" and then go on and on about yourself and expect the other person to respond with anything other than frustration.

I think that's when you need to "be the rock," Isa. Good job in the debate.

just read the debate. first time on jewcy.
isa, you are an inspiration.
love,
claire

Isa, you did a great job holding your ground. This dude did not present one good counterpoint to your general claim that unnecessary killing is wrong. And yeah, he just ignored the stuff that he didn't have a good answer for. Frustrating indeed. Anyway, great job!

I saw this NY Times article about a vegan baby who died of starvation, and I thought it offered incontravertible evidence about the human need for animal proteins.

Here is the first paragraph, you  decide:

WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty.

Jessica

I saw this NY Times article about a vegan baby who died of starvation, and I thought it offered incontravertible evidence about the human need for animal proteins.

No, it doesn't it only shows that you can't live on apple juice and soy milk. Most people already know this. Have you ever heard of human breast milk? That is what he should been fed. Don't lump us all together because we are not all like those morons. 6 weeks olds aren't supposed to drink anything besides their Mom's breast milk, or infant formula if the Mom can't give milk for some reason. I know plenty of healthy, happy vegan children.
BTW apple juice and soy milk isn't a vegan diet. It's just parts of one.

Dear Anonymous,

Apprarently you didn't read the whole article. THe author acknowledges your point about apple juice and soy milke, but then she continues to describe the deficiencies of EVEN VEGAN BREASTMILK.  Look at this excerpt from the article:
Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.

She goes on to describe why toddlers and small children would also be in danger, for the vegan lack of protein and calcium in develiping muscle tissue and bones.

I'm not "lumpiing you all together"--these people were clearly crazy. However, 3 such infant deaths in the past 4 years indicates that something is amiss in attempting to raise vegan infants. A mother who prioritizes the alleged comfort of a cow's udder over her own child's health and well-being.... well... that seems a little bit crazy, no?

Jessica

Jessica,

That is an op ed piece, not exactly an article per se, but more the opinion of one person. And I don't think that the opinion is very well researched. First of all the author, Nina Planck, is not a doctor or even a nutritionist. She is a business woman whose business is selling meat and dairy to people, including her book about why meat and dairy are good for you.

There are plant sources for DHA yet she chooses to omit that fact. She does say that plant sources for essential amino acids are "inferior in quantity and quality" but offers no evidence of this. Probably because there is actually no evidence of this. Humans can synthesize enough DHA from eating plant sources rich in Omega-3s, like flax seeds. So if the mom is eating her omega-3s and breast feeding, DHA levels should be sufficient and free of mercury and other toxins that a fish-heavy diet would surely contain. However, I'm not a doctor, so here is an article about vegan pregnancy and infancy by some one who is: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/pregnancy.htm.

You parrot her statement that this has happened three times in four years, but I can think of only one other case where the parents actually were actually feeding their child cod fish liver oil and so this seems to directly contradict Nina's assertions that fish oils would have saved this baby. It also contradicts the very notion that this baby was fed a vegan diet. What is the other case you are talking about?

Also, how many babies starved at the hand of omnivorous parents in the past 4 years? Do you have those statistics at hand? My guess is no, because "Meat Eating Parents Starve Baby" doesn't make a very good headline. Also, how many vegan babies did not die of starvation in the past 4 years? Again, you probably don't know this because that story is not very sexy either.

Isa, you make very good points about the validity of this article, but I am not sure Jessica was the one to "take to task" (as they say) for this.

She says "I thought it offered incontravertible evidence about the human need for animal proteins." If Nina were a jewcy member I would have addressed the message to her. Since Jessica is her mouthpiece here I thought it was appropriate.

thanks for the animated discussion.
Isa has her opinion, and I have mine. You've definitely researched this subject more than I have. Still, the evidence you provide is shadily second-guessing the woman who wrote her article.

Perhaps there's another, even deeper issue at hand here. That is: Is it ethical to impose a potentially dangerous diet on one's baby, which is based on an ideological choice?

Jessica

I don't know what you mean by shadily second guessing. It is definitely second guessing, but why is it shady?

To answer your question, no. Of course it is not ethical to impose a potentially dangerous diet on one's baby. But a vegan diet has not been shown to be potentially dangerous. All food choices are ideological, whether it be feeding your baby McDonalds or free-range eggs. Every parent should become informed about nutrition, be they vegan or meat eaters.