“Thank you for this food. Thanks to all the beings who created this food. I dedicate this meal to a child who is truly hungry.”

That's a curious prayer. You "dedicate" the meal to someone who is truly hungry, but don't support the plant based diet that could actually sustain the world's population more effectively, and that truly hungry child. Interesting that THAT doesnt "feel right."

Earlier you mentioned that "much of the land used for grazing animals would be unsuitable for horticulture. This is the flaw in the argument that it takes ten calories of grain to produce one calorie of meat." But somehow I doubt that land has always been unsuitable, or that it can't be tended to into a fruitful piece of land. Accordig to wikipedia: "A major element of arable land loss comes from deforestation." Perhaps deforestation to support the factory farm? Non arable land CAN be turned into arable land, but it's difficult. But if this land is suitable for grazing, SOMETHING is growing, and maybe something else can be grown, with some effort. Say for instance, industrial hemp. As a "peacenik wingnut" I'm sure you support that the U.S. change it's policy on the cultivation of industrial, non-high inducing, hemp. So now this land can be used for hemp oil, nutritious hemp seeds, and the pulp for paper, and textiles. There you go, plant based food, and no more chopping down redwoods for paper!

You have no position at all! I'm sorry I even took you seriously based on your earlier posts. You're just another middle class kid trying to have an authentic experience of any kind and "feeling" your way through life. You don't even take the time to engage the serious implications of these issues for society or humanity as a whole. Your posts are narcissistic and nieve and would get a poor grade in even a sophomore college philosophy class.

Charles, you make absolutely no sense.

Hate to break it to you, but capitalism is the system that subsists based solely upon desire, and consummating desire.

so, you're saying that not composting apple cores "feels" bad, but raising animals to kill them for your own taste-fueled desires "feels" good? hmmm.......

"I actually don’t live based on ethics at all, a system of principles superimposed over real desire. I follow desire..."

yeah, i got that.

'That's a curious prayer. You "dedicate" the meal to someone who is truly hungry, but don't support the plant based diet that could actually sustain the world's population more effectively, and that truly hungry child. Interesting that THAT doesnt "feel right."'

thank you. i can't add to this.

"It is almost impossible to speak of ethics without using words like should and shouldn’t, right and wrong, good and bad. There is another way to think, though, and another way to live. In trying hard to be good and rise above desire, we enact a war against the self—an internalization of our civilization’s war on nature."

And so I assume its better to just go with our desire everytime, and trust that it will have each of us do the "natural"/"right" thing? Apparently, as you say:  

"Interestingly, desire and pleasure lead me to the same behaviors that people consider ethical. I recycle and compost because it feels good, not because I should. I am kind and gentle in my relationships because it feels good.. To take an apple core and throw it in the garbage instead of composting it actually hurts. Because I am connected to it, and I know where it wants to go. Its pain is my pain. This is not a theory, it is a felt experience that everyone has access to."

But our desires are different.  Ethics purports to provide a general structure and set of rules that we as a group of people will live by.  Jeffrey Dahmer had the desire to cannibalize young men  and engage in necrophilia.  Not a very ethical thing to do, because his acts had huge repercussions on others - the victims and their families suffered terribly. 

Its basically the Hobbesian tenet - we balance our own freedoms to follow our desires with a desire to be somewhat protected from the impact of the desires of others on us.  Ethics is about deciding where that line gets drawn. And deciding who gets eaten and who doesn't is an appropriate place for an ethical inquiry.

I still don't get what's up with the endless debate over redwood trees! Vegans don't cut down trees for food! Some people do have spiritual feelings when confronted with beautiful places and situations, such as climbing in the mountains, standing in the ocean or standing in front of a redwood. So? I admit that I do and do not attack you for it. But again, plants are spared when one eats the plants directly due to efficiency of processing never being 100% (simple science). Yes, a few grazing animals (in the form of wildlife) would be great in a more natural environment, but humans still would not have to eat them to sustain the ecosystem.

As for you choosing to do what feels right for you and feeling healthier eating an omnivorous diet, those seem to be the relevent issues in your choices and, forgive me for not being pursuaded, not right for everyone nor sufficient for a new philosophy of eating. I find it interesting because I am way healthier now as a vegetarian than I was on meat and dairy, but I believe you that some people probably fall into both catagories when they are careful not to overindulge on animal products. And the point that you are doing what feels right, that you have had to overcome what sounds like great guilt to embrace an omnivorous diet, that reminds me very much of the overall zeitgeist of the 2000's in America [watch Oprah for examples]. In the spirit of mutual understanding, I respect your decision and appreciate your respectfulness to Isa. I do not, however, respect the annonymous poster who seems bent against vegans.

I'm sorry to say that you should look into the types of areas that cattle and sheep and even pigs can be raised. My uncle was a cattle rancher/ farmer. He had no need to clear out his forested areas for his cows. Cows can roam in and among trees easily. Also in those same woods you would find wild berries of many varieties, not to mention wild onion, wild garlic etc...However in the corn fields and hay fields not only is there no shade, but no wild berries, no wild life really except the occasional deer or rabbit. So tell me how exactly would you leave the trees stand and grow your veggies?

Each food source has it's flaws, agriculture has it's pesticides, that cause environmental problems not just in the soil, but in the water and in wildlife and in human life. Cattle ranching has an impact on the environment because of run off from the fertilizer that the cows produce, also with the use of hormones and antibiotics the meat isn't natural and the animal is given medication it doesn't need.

Are most of you here strictly vegans? or are you also environmentalists? Because being a vegan doesn't mean your an environmentalist. Especially if you buy genetically engineered veggies and fruits, and you do not care how much pesticide is used to make it pretty. Do you drive that gas guzzling car? Care what happens to this planet? Or do you think you have done your bit by giving up meat? Get real! It takes much more than saying no to a steak. Someone actually posted that they drive a SUV, don't believe in global warming and basically just don't care about the Earth at all. Why if you don't care about anything did you become a vegan? So you could say "Hey, I gave up meat, why should I do anything more?" How arrogant is that?

If a farmer raises a cow and chickens for his family, and he grows his own veggies and hay for his cows who am I to yell how bad he is? That is his choice. If his morals do not match mine who am I to tell him he is wrong? I am not about to try to impose my moral values on someone else, just like I am not about to bang on your door to shove my religious beliefs down your throat.

So meat eaters anger you, or disgust you or whatever, why? Is it simply because they eat meat? or is it because they just do not have the same morals as you? If someone chooses to have sex before marriage and you choose not to, do you get angry at that person, look down your nose at them? Why what would give you the right?

The point is that your diet doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on others. You did not create this planet, you are not a God or even a higher being therefore who are you to say what is right for others? Next will we hear that we all must have the same eye color and hair color to be accepted?

Freedom of choice is a gift, and not all choices will please everyone. My choice might not be your choice, and your choice not mine, but the difference is, I do not snarl and point my nose in the air like I am better than you because of my choice. I am not a judgmental snob. Can you say the same?

Really think hard and long about why you made your choice to eat what you eat. Then answer honestly do you do more? Do you recycle, compost, by organic, walk when you can instead of drive and if you drive what do you drive?

I am vegan. I don't hate omnivores or look down on them - I was one for 30 years. If you do some serious reading on veganism, you might see why someone would choose to be vegan. But don't just get angry because you think someone is "looking down on you."

"Do you recycle, compost, by organic, walk when you can instead of drive and if you drive what do you drive?"

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and I drive a bicycle.

LOL, not angry, read some of the posts here, and in some of the other discussions regarding this subject, and you will see that a lot of vegans seem to be a bit hostile. The only thing that has ticked me off is the one vegan "outing himself" and bragging about how wasteful he is. What is there to brag about? Me, yes I recycle, compost, buy organic and walk when I can. If I drive I do all my weeks running in one day.

If you do not look down on omnivores then it's great, but some seem very hostile.

As I have said in other posts, I respect the choice people make to give up meat. I have friends that are vegan, and I am quite happy to eat meatless meals. I have read on veganism, and I do understand why someone might choose to be vegan. I choose not to be, my choice, my right. Just like those who choose not to eat meat.

I do apologize if my post seemed like I am angry, I'm not. I do not anger easily.

First of all, Cricket, I'm not vegan for environmental reasons. It just so happens that the meat industry is horrible for the environment and only ignorant people dispute that. But it really makes no difference to me or many other vegans: I consider killing animals for food in an affluent society in the year 2007 unethical. Got that? You need to pay attention to the main arguments and not get lost on little straw-man side points.

By the way, Sartre, your argument about freedom sucks. Why? Let me give you an example: I 'choose' to be the supreme dictator and have a bunch of slaves and fuck your mom...what, that's not okay with you? Don't tell me how to use my free-will man, okay? You see, it's important to impose our morals on each other. That's where laws, and rules against murder and rape come from, the same rules that protect you from the bad, bad men. I'm sorry if that's not what you read in your Lit Theory class but I tell you what, if you can fuck yourself in your own ass right now I'll admit I was wrong about subjectivity.

Which brings me to: do I think I'm better than you? Of course! But I'm not vegan because it makes me feel better than you, I'm better than you because I'm vegan. I used to eat meat (like you) and then chose (unlike you) to make sacrifices to become vegetarian and then a vegan. I almost never discuss my diet with anybody because most people, such as yourself, are apologists of the status quo. Am I hostile? Maybe, but you see, life is not an academic exercise and calling yourself an "omnivore" is just a euphemism for facilitating the suffering of animals. Besides, you are not a struggling 3rd world family or a "small farmer" or anything of the sort. You are obviously just another little yuppie 'choosing' not to sacrifice an ounce of your comfort. Did you ever consider taking your fancy "freedom to choose" and doing something original with it like not torturing and killing animals?

Sean let me first say that you though you may feel like you are better than me, you are in fact no better than anyone in this world. Got that? We are all equal, if you are shot you will bleed and die if no-one helps you( and with your attitude few would) In my opinion for anyone to make such a statement either makes them extremely arrogant, or ignorant, or both. Which affluent society do you live in? The one in your head maybe? Right people here and around the world are all affluent, we all have homes, and food, and medical care right? I mean hey we live in an affluent society right? Wrong!

No Sean you are not better than me because of your choice to have a meatless diet, if anything your worse than me because of your arrogant attitude.

Raising acres of veggies on clear cut land, then continually spraying pesticides on the crop to keep it bug free is not harmful to the environment at all? Oh really? Maybe you should work for the government sounds like you would fit right in.

You are exactly the type of vegan that gives other vegans a bad name. Got that!

Talk about getting off track, what a nasty little mouth you have, is the language really needed to get your point across, if so you must be a very ignorant person, or maybe you were going for shock value. Here is the thing, there are laws to protect us yes, some laws are just stupid, others are more along the common sense lines and others dealing with rape, well lets just say that when the rape victim is made to some how fell as if the rape is partly there fault, then there is a problem. However, laws have not stopped people from raping, murdering etc...It still happens so moral values , ethics, laws have not changed everyone. Would you also say that we should impose our religious beliefs on others? Maybe make everyone think the same, dress the same and look the same as well? We were born with free will, we make our choices if my choice is not yours then I really do not care, it is my choice. Comparing omnivores to rapists is just ignorant. The fact is that your thinking that your better than others is just pure ignorance. Quite the legend in your own mind there aren't you?

(This is me laughing at you, and your lack of ability to get your point across without gutter talk, which by the way makes you appear really ignorant)

To all you other vegans, once again I say I respect your choice, just do not choose at this time to be one of you. Thanks for all the intelligent comments. Some of you really did make good points without the use of vulgar language. Others just spouted the same old, same old.

Sean: How do you know what I am? Do you know I am not a small farmer? Really? I'll be sure and let my animals and crops know that as well. Yuppie I think not. Bad, bad men/women do not scare me, they are a fact of life. I come from a family of farmers and cops.

I do not own a new house, or have a T.V. in all my rooms, one is more than enough don't you think? My car is not the latest yuppie choice. Sorry to disillusion you. If you want to be a dictator go for it, but you won't get far.( your not persuasive enough) Slavery, there are many forms of slavery. Slavery is still around, I personally fell it is wrong, but that is my opinion.

Go ahead and try to F my mom she can take care of herself, as can I especially against an egotist like yourself. Oh, by the way I can't f myself because I am a female, but if I could I am sure it would be better than anything you could do.

I am raising 3 sons all are..you guessed it meat eaters...my gawd kill us now. omnivore, is the proper term since I do eat fruits and vegetables and not just meat alone.

Hostility and disrespect, and the inept ability you have to get your point across, leads me to conclude that you just do not know how to communicate without being a blow-hard. Perhaps all you understand is how to judge others , to try to shock and bully to get your point across, or to get others to cower and run. Won't work with me. People who resort to behaving in that manner usually do so because they somehow fell threatened, or they are unsure of themselves so they compensate by being aggressive.

Laws are broken on a daily bases, morals and ethics are constantly changing, what is fine today may not be tomorrow. To blindly follow along is folly. At some point in time you must decide what is right for you and what is not, and live with those choices.

If you were standing in front of me and spouted off what you did I would laugh in your face, and turn my back on you, because I would find you ignorant, and unable to debate in an educated, respectful manner. Enough said. Anyone out there have something intelligent to say, about the subject, without being disrespectful and vulgar?

Sean expressed himself in a way that may be counterproductive, since aggravating others seldom convinces them -- but he's right. Ethical matters are not merely matters of taste (figuratively or literally). Just substitute "slaveholder" for "omnivore" and "slave" for "animal" and see whether claims to the effect that "it's my choice" make much sense. Even Sartre said that when we choose we don't choose only for ourselves but for everyone, and so we bear a heavy moral responsibility in all our choices.

The whole meat-eater position is wonderfully summed up in Charles Eisenstein's little "Thanks to all the beings who created this food. I dedicate this meal to a child who is truly hungry." Is the tortured animal any less dead? Is the hungry child any less hungry? But, hey, the important thing is to do what feels good, right?

So what your saying is the Amish here that use horses instead of cars are slave owners? Some how I do not think they would agree. Those same horses are used to do the very hard labor of pulling old fashioned plows so that Vegetables can be grown, as most of them are farmers and not ranchers. Somehow at least for me, I would rather see this than see a huge gas guzzling tractor doing the work. As for the chickens, well none are force fed, most roam free and are cooped at night for their own protection as coyotes roam here. The cows are milked by hand and not hooked up to machines. This is friendly farming, farming with the least impact on the environment.

Now if I give up eating meat, there won't be any more hungry people? I think it won't change this fact. Actually, most third world countries seem to have been better off before they were westernized. Before we went in and told them what was wrong with their life style and made them more like us. The villagers took care of each other. Now they beg in the streets, wait for the rice truck and are malnourished. Who are we to tell them that what their ancestors ate is wrong? Who are we to change their culture?

Now I will totally agree that cattle on some ranches are raised in a bad way. Which is why I do not buy beef or eat it very often and when I do, it is from a local rancher. I make a responsible choice not to support the bad ranchers and farmers. Can you say the same about your vegetables? Do you only buy organic and local as often as possible? I do.

See the way I see it, you have to look at the big picture. Yes, death is a horrible thing, I have seen it first hand. My daughter died almost 3 years ago and I watched her suffer from a disease without any known treatment or cure. To me human suffering is far more important an issue than animal suffering. No one should suffer. Cattle are raised for either meat or dairy. It's what they are bred for, they would not make it in the wild, because they are domestic animals bred for food. Their death's should not be taken for granted so thanking them for their life is a good thing.

To say that just by eating a vegan diet you are helping hungry people get fed is not very realistic. To say that people that eat meat are causing hunger is just not a reality.

Yes, all choices we make, we make for everyone. That includes not just what we eat, but the choices as to how those foods are grown. Not just where we live but how we live. It's all connected.

If and when I choose to not eat meat any more, it will be because I choose what is right for me. That's the great thing about this Country, we get to choose.

I do thank you for your opinions and words, and believe me when I say, I am thinking about them. Maybe you have a point..Maybe I will go and research some more on this subject. Like I said I am just as happy with a meal of veggies as anything else. ^^, Meat is an occasional visitor not a mainstay.
Raised by farmers here. We like our veggies.

Now I have a garden to plant, and berry bushes to tend, and grape vines to trellis.

I thank you for your intelligent argument for vegans. One problem with being a vegan would be, my vegan friends would never leave, I make a mean Blackbean Pie.

Cricket, to me you sound like a person who is very conflicted about your choice to eat meat. You vehemently try and try to defend your choice and get very upset when someone questions your morality...I don't agree with the very rude tactics of Sean because that seriously doesn't get anyone anywhere, but you sound like someone who wants to be very open to veganism and yet does not want to think everything you have done and thought up to that point could have possibly been wrong. Do you go to restaurants? Do you order meat at restaurants? Do you know where they get their meat? Do you ALWAYS know where your meat comes from? Do you slit the throats of the cows and chickens and pigs yourself? Do you gut them? How does that feel? If factory farms disappeared and all meat was raised "humanely" and sustainably, how much would your meat cost? I think the world might become veggie more quickly if a chicken breast cost $50 a pound and took into account the ACTUAL cost to the environment, etc.

Hi Jake, I am always open to new ideas, or others opinions. I do not see where you find me upset with the exception of dealing with Sean, I do not upset easy, I tend to be very easy in the temper department. I will however speak my mind, and the written word can often be read differently than the writer intended.

I do not eat meat at each meal, and when out often opt for veggie meals, or fish. I do not eat beef often, chicken more often, yes I have killed chickens.( you actually chop their heads off) It didn't bother me overly much. Seen cows slaughtered, couldn't do it myself, or only if my family was starving. I do think that if factory ranches disappeared the world might be better off, at least environmentally. I have never seen a sheep slaughtered, but imagine it is pretty much the same. I really do not get upset when anyone questions my morals, it bothers me more if they are rude about it. I do not have a problem with my moral stands, but like I said before I will research more throughly the subject. The other problem I have is with vegans saying they don't eat meat for moral reasons, but do not care about environmental issues so much. That doesn't make sense to me. I am an environmentally conscious person, even though I eat meat occasionally. I do not order beef, or ham, lamb when out to eat, which isn't often, maybe once a month at most. I stick with salads or fish or veggie meals. Because I do not know where they get their meat. Actually ordering fish lately has bothered me since fish farms are big polluters. Then the other issue I have is if the veggies are organic or not, so I would rather shop and cook for myself.

Beef and certain chicken cuts are already expensive, but people still buy them. It seems that people will buy what they want regardless of price. Just look at smokers, they know it is bad for their health and the health of others, yet they will pay more and more for something that is slowly killing them.

Won't most people defend their views when they feel they are right? I notice you all defend your stand on the moral aspects, someone needs to speak for the other side, even if I don't eat meat all the time.

So yes, I have killed chickens. Yes, I have witnessed cows killed. No to sheep and pigs. Yes, I have plucked the chicken and cleaned it. Growing up on, or around a farm you learn these things.

I have said before, I am just as happy with a veggie meal as not. Closet vegan maybe? ^^ My friends always say so.

You have all, with the exception of Sean, given me things to research and think about, I thank you for that. I will, and who knows I just might join your ranks. If not it will not be due to lack of research, it will simply be that my moral/ ethical views are a bit different than yours. I will always respect a persons personal choices in this life even if I do not agree, and as long as they are ready to be responsible for those choices.

I can respect Charles' spiritual feelings about nature. But that line of reasoning can justify positions no one on this board would ever sanction.

"I feel that the Rapture is coming soon, and driving my Hummer just FEELS so good. Why should I stop?"

There is no way to sort out or debate or clarify feelings by themselves. By appealing to feelings, Charles' relegates all moral debate into complete subjectivism.

"I just FEEL so right spewing racial epithets. I FEEL so at home marching in that KKK rally."

I like ethics so much because it takes our moral instincts and feelings seriously, but then adds a layer of intellectual criticism to it, best sorting out and weighing our moral feelings in a way that makes the most sense. It is a wonderful balance between head and heart.