Tahl Raz is an idiot and probably married to a shiksa.

Anonymous is a bigot and is probably married to a platypus.

This is goofy...Mr. Raz can tell us what he'd like Jewish identity to become, or where he thinks, morally and historically, we might be headed, but to declare, with this degree of certainty, the future of Judaism is shockingly arrogant.
Since the 19th century, every generation of Jews has declared a new path, be it Lutheran Baptism, Soviet Socialism or American capitalism and assimilation, yet their predictions always prove incorrect or unsatisfying.
Get over yourself.

I agree, we're meant to grapple with peoplehood, intermarriage and such issues. It seems millennialist to announce that, once and for all, these are dated debates we're done with.

Tahl was asked to represent his generation's version of those definitions and also his own opinion.

 Just because the particularist american 20- and 30somethings have made their "definitions" clear, doesn't make those definitions permanent. By defining our terms away from previous generations, we *are* grappling with the existence of a Jewish people.

Also-- Tahl, thanks for speaking so clearly about intermarriage. I wish more people would agree with you, but I think your definition is quite radical.

Jessica

Both advocate the destruction for the Jewish people. Proud to be a bigot if it means being against the genocide of the Jews.

Intermarriage is a genocide? I think you need a dictionary, Skippie.

More than 70% of children of intermarriage don't identify as Jews and 90% of their children lose all connection to their Jewish heritage. That results in millions of "lost" Jews because of intermarriage. Hilter would be pro-intermarriage because the result is the destruction of the Jewish people.

So what do you suggest for those of us in the hinterlands? Brooklyn mail order brides? Sheesh.

"More than 70% of children of intermarriage don't identify as Jews"

With people like you representing Jews, I don't think we can blame them.

I think it's true, that those who live in the hinterlands, and are disconnected with Jewish life and Jewish community more broadly in the diaspora and in Israel, are indeed unlikely to marry another Jewish person. It stands to reason. The less one socializes with Jews, the less one is likely to marry a Jew. The issue is this disconnection with Jews in the first place, not the logical result of outmarriage which follows.

In our parents' generation, Jews living in very small communities -- and there were many, being small businesspersons, at that time -- would attend university or otherwise make their way to a major centre, to meet more Jewish people. But that generation was socialized as Jews. Today's generation, living in the hinterlands, is very much assimilated, and its Jewish identity is quite notional. I think intermarriage, in such instances, is simply a logical conclusion.

Can someone then suggest a school where one can learn Hebrew. I'm interested more in the language and less about bible stories...

I was brought up as a Scottish-American Protestant by a single mother. It was only until my teens that my Grandmother told me her mother was originally Jewish and was forced to convert in secret by my Great Grandfather so that his largely German Christian hick farming community would accept them.

In that case intermarriage did wipe out a group of potential Jews. But it's an extreme case from a long time ago. Intermarriage today is radically different. It's about cultures coming together, without losing their unique characteristics. I hope...

Denying that intermarriage is destroying the Jewish community is like denying that the Holocaust was bad for the Jewish people. This is an example of deep denial. Most Jews today are self-hating wimps who desperately want to be like gentiles and accepted by them. The result is widespread intermarriage. It describes people like disgusting Eli.

The fact is that Jews are intermarrying - for good or bad - thats what is happening. Furthermore if one does not compare it to mass genocide or browbeat all for not seeing the true horrible evil in it does not mean that they/we are not concerned.

All of you ultra anti intermarriage folks out there do you really think that the answer to 'saving' our people is going to be by calling all those that acknowledge, don't feel disgust by it, or have done it, nasty names. That may or may not work in the sandbox - but I don't really think its a solution for this slightly bigger problem. The fact that Mr. Raz acknowledges the issue and proposes to think about an inclusive solution on this one (cause what you ultra whatevers are doing aint working) should stimulate some positive discussion, not idiotic nazi comparisons.

A recent study just revealed that ABSTINENCE classes don't work to stop horny adolesents from fucking - duh. Just like the nasty nazi comparisons won't work in this situation either!

Wow, an anon with some sense. Someone get the person an account.

But seriously, since there seems to be an impasse, let's take that road. And other anonymous, lay off the personal slurs. For example, it's okay to say that Eli disgusts you, but not okay to call him disgusting Eli. And I think you should capitalize the D, too. Like it's his title: Disgusting Eli. 

As a rural Canadian (read: hinterland) Jew who DID find a nice Jewish girl to marry I offer the following re: intermarriage = nazism;

If all 6 million intermarried (can you immagine!) and 95% of the 1.3 children each of those couples had lost all connection with thier Jewish heritage...

6,000,000 x 0.05 x 1.3 = 390,000 more Jews our parents' age who DO IDENTIFY...

Now assume a more realistic number of the 6,000,000 did NOT intermarry (pick your own reality here) and you can see how the numbers just dont add up.

Explain to me again how intermarriage is the same as genocide???

The numbers here are all wrong. While it's true that roughly one  third of intermarried Jews produce self-identifying "Jewish" kids, it's also true that we're getting more kids overall.

Think about it, if 50-60% of Jews intermarry, that's 50% more homes, so if one third of those additional homes are "Jewish" the numbers aren't diminishing so fast. 

It's also true that we'e jsut started to see that we can have a huge effect on that percetage with outreach (look at the Boston/SF studies) .  In numbers, if we get to a place where  30% is 50%, and intermarraige continues to rise.... our numbers of "Jews" willa ctually rise.  You might not like how it happens, but it's going to happen. Jewish births will rise in the next decade or two.

And also, Hitler was pretty totally opposed to Jewish intermarriage. Wasn't that the whole fucking point? Mongrelization? Dillution of the bloodline? 

And also, the same kinds of numbers we see in intermarried homes are happening in secular Jewish homes as well.   Assimilation has had a huge effect on how we identify, generation by generation. Lack of Jewish identity doesn't need intermarriage. It's doing just fine in the frat houses and corporate offices everywhere, even in all-Jewish worlds.

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

The comments about intermarriage here are delusion to say the least. The fact is that all the studies have shown that intemarriage has drastically reduced the number of Jews. Fifty-years ago there were 5 million Jews in America and today the number is the same. Jews are the only group in this country that have had zero population growth. The reason is the high rate of intermarriage and it's devastating effect on the Jewish community.

The Reform Movement is rapdily losing members and that is why now it requires spouses to convert before marriage. Their very liberal attitude toward Judaism has left them in shambles. On the other hand the number of Orthodox Jews is growing everday because their intermariage rate is practically non-existant and they have a high birthrate. This is what accounts for the higher Jewish birthrate in America.

Intermarriage doesn't contribute to more Jews but to what I call the "Gentilization" of American Jews. These "Jews" celebrate Christmas and Easter and Jewish holidays without irony and have no idea why Israel is special to the Jews. I would rather have a small authentic Jewish community than a large one, where the "Jews" are actually gentiles masquerading as Jews.

I still stand by my statement that Hilter would be pro-intermarriage. I've been on neo-Nazi websites where there's a lot of glee because Jews are marrying out and having non-Jewish children. There is opposition to Jewish men dating their "Aryan shiksas" but for the most part they take joy in the destruction of the Jewish people.

Are you suggesting, Laurel, that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they were too ethnocentric and refused to assimilate? So if the Jews intermarried in Germany they wouldn't have been killed? I'm disgusted at your comments but I shouldn't be surprised since you are the product of an intermarriage. You have no respect for Judaism or the Jewish people. You are only using Judaism to advance your career and because you think it's more exotic than being a White Christian. I'm very upset right now so I will stop now before I really let you have it.

if you represent the Jewish people like you think you do, o bitter previous poster, then I guess I don't have much respect for the Jewish people either. at any rate, after your shrill ethnic purity rant I don't have much respect for you at least.

Yes, I can understand how you would find yourself in agreement with the Neo-Nazis and their theses. Comparing marriage of any type with the Holocaust, especially this week of Yom Ha'Shoah, is disgusting. I totally subscribe to Laurel's points above, but I would also like to point out, since I don't think anyone has done it yet, that in the Holocaust, Jews were actively murdered. There is no possible comparison with anything else.

How dare anyone compare interfaith marriage- a union between two people- to the brutal, systematic massacre that murdered 6 million men, women and children. And get the facts right: another 5 million non-Jewish people were also slaughtered by the Nazis, aided by narrow-minded, intolerent bigots that use hurtful words.

The hate, resentment, bigotry, narcissism (shall I go on) that is espewed by Jewish people about their fellow man who marry those they love, is what is driving Jewish people away from their faith. Who wants to be part of a community that teaches hate? Cruelty? Judgement? Jewish people like you do not represent the Jewish values that I hold dear. Would you rather turn back the clock and have us all living in ghettos, oppressed, persecuted, thrown out of modern society? You know why "Judaism loses" in interfaith? Because of people like you who make it impossible to truly welcomed as part of the community.

There is no excuse for your comparison, or using the word Shiksa in such a demeaning way.

Are you suggesting, Laurel, that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they were too ethnocentric and refused to assimilate?

I'm not going to dignify the above statement by dialoguing with you further.  There's no point in it. I'll save my energy for people who listen.

xoL http://jewishyirishy.com

This SHIKSA converted and is proud to be Jewish. I almost didn't because I had encountered a Rabbi and a couple of Jewish people that shared your crap attitude. Several years late, I finally converted- but it took a new congregation and Rabbi to understand your views don't represent Jewish values.

Maybe widening of the gene pool will help balance out jerks like you.

To the guy who thinks I'm a "goy", try this scenario:

It's Poland, 1939. There's a knock on my door. It's two German soldiers.

Soldier #1: Hello, we're rounding up Jews today. We understand that your parents were Jewish.

Me: That's true, they were. But I'm not, I don't even believe in God. I'm an agnostic, or perhaps even a weak atheist.

Soldier #2: Oh, we're sorry to have bothered you. Carry on.

Soldier #1: Have a nice day.

Being Jewish can mean just the cultural and ethnic part. Duh.

Just for the record, my cousin and her Irish-American husband are raising their kids 100% Jewish. So there.

The only reason I'm being attacked is because I'm a proud Jew who takes an aggressive stand against the destruction of the Jewish community. If defending the Jewish people makes me a bigot well than I'm proud of being a bigot. The fact is that most American Jews are wimy, self-hating cowards who are slaves to their Gentile masters. They're not used to seeing Jewish pride.

That an individual who claims that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust because they didn't intermarry is supported here, and I'm atttacked, represents how low the people who call themselves Jewish have gone. I'm sure that most commentators here are half-Jews and have no concept of what Judaism is.

What a class act the converted shiksa is. I don't oppose conversion but a lot of Rabbis have a problem with why people convert. Many Gentiles only convert for marriage and don't take Judaism seriously. Your comment at the end is pure anti-semitic crap. The Jews don't need a widening of the "gene pool." The Jews were fine for thousands of years and didn't need Gentiles to "help" their genes. Most real Jews share my opinions so I guess we're all "jerks."

Actually bardemu the Nazis are pro-intermarriage because it's destroying the Jewish community. You sound like you agree with them. I obviously oppose intermarriage so I don't agree with the Nazis. Many Rabbis and Jewish leaders have made comparisions between the Holocaust and intermarriage so my opinions are not radical.

Contrary to popular beliefs there are a lot of Jews that agree with me. Not all Jews lving in America are self-hating pro-intermarriage promoters . You people are having a lot of success in destroying the Jewish community but we won't go down without a fight!

I guess, then, I was hallucinating when the holocaust survivors told me about how the intermarried couples were dragged out of their homes. I must have been seeing things, too, when I saw dozens of photos of intermarried couples with signs around their necks in Nazi Germany.

Won't go down without a fight? Dude, I'll bet you can't get dressed without a fight. You want to call us names? Fine. Don't care. But some of us actually DO work with Holocaust survivors and don't like it when hysterical right wingers appropriate the term for their pet causes.

And the bottom line is this: We are Jews not because we say we are or because we do specific things but because of one incontrovertible fact: we have neshamas (Jewish souls). (How's that for a compound sentence, two colons and all?)

We get these neshamas in one of two ways. Either being born to a Jewish woman or converting according the Halacha, Jewish Law. For this to be true it means that, yes, God is real and there is spirituality in the universe and God is watching us and the Jewish religion is what it's all about. It means that the entire Torah is true and any difficulty we might have with all this is also real and a test and it's up to us to start learning and asking questions and, most importantly, doing.

And it's unpleasant to read all the bickering, name-calling, etc. I have only 120 years or so on the planet, and I get tired and cranky from enough down here. The last thing I want to read or hear is a bunch on Jews not loving each other. C'mon, guys!

i read this somewhere and thought it applicable....

"Whether on a personal level or a communal level, or perhaps both, I think we have all had times when we felt judged, insulted, picked-on, and discriminated against. I suppose, even if we disagree about everything else, we can at least bond over this. It's seems to be human nature to want to find a group of people with whom we can identify; no one (that is mentally healthy) wants to go through life completely alone. Clearly, people will do/say all kinds of things in order to maintain that sense of connection. Fear can be an incredibly powerful motivator. Admittedly, I have much to learn about, well, everything. But, for what it's worth, I think that only when we accept our own inherent imperfections, will we be fully able to approach life in a truly loving manner. Every one of us, even those "crazy" people who act in ways that seemingly make no sense, is a creation of G-d. For the sake of our awesome and giving Creator, who has allowed us this opportunity to develop a relationship with him, I hope that we can all begin to set aside this destructive propensity to judge and stereotype that which we don't understand and instead recognize the myriad opportunities we have to make someone feel understood. While I'm quite aware that this will not solve the world's problems, I do think, at the very least, it might bring some comfort and clarity to those whom we interact with on a daily basis. Ultimately, it seems that so often we talk ourselves in circles, not realizing that essentially we are all trying to say the same thing. We have a communication problem. And so I ask, G-d help us please, that we may all be blessed with the ability to overlook our personal biases and beliefs long enough to really listen to what somewhat else is saying."

I love you all even if we don't agree. At least everyone here cares enough to give this issue some thought...

Do you see yourself as an individual, or just as a part of a larger group. There's really nothing uniquely Jewish (or unique) about bitter anonymous' rants. They are the standard refrains of an ethnocentric. It's the same urge to group identity that is motivating the shiites and sunnies to slaughter each other in Iraq.

Is bitter-anonymous a bigot? Well, he's certainly shouldn't be grouped with Nazis or the KKK just because he values his own group identity and wants to preserve it. But ethnocentricism is nevertheless harmful and outdated.

I think Tahl's essential point is that American Jews are generally NOT ethnocentric. We might have some emotional connection to Judaism but our identity is much larger than Judaism. That's why Judaism is a choice for us.

In contrast, being part of a group is obviously the source of bitter-anonymous' whole identity. That's why he can, with a straight face, compare intermarriage to genocide. He sees both as leading to a decrease in the group's numbers. And if the group is all that matters (rather than the individual), then it doesn't matter whether a decrease happens from death or assimilation.

To anyone who's evolved beyond a strictly ethnocentric identity, such comparisons are absolutely sick.

Perhaps Jews need to be much more agressive about converting non-Jewish spouses to Judaism.

And the LORD spake unto Asshole Anonymous, saying:

Any Jew who calleth another Jew "goy," "Nazi," "shiksa," "shaygetz," "Hitler" (including the misspelling "Hilter"), or "product of an intermarriage"...I, the LORD hereby declare thee non-Jewish, and cut thee off from thy kin. Moreover, from this day forth thou shalt shut the fuck up, get the fuck off the Internet, and stew in thy hate and parochialism until thou chokest.

I am the LORD thy God.